The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)
- Thread starter BigBlueFanGA
- Start date
I see this as back to the cold war. Saying "we are playing along" by standing up to Putin is similar to the criticism Reagan and other cold warriors got with "peace through strength" foreign policy. I just don't see how the MAGA isolationists can look at Russian agression with Ukraine and alliances with N. Korea and Cuba and come to the conclusion that "it's safer for the US to just stay out of all of this".
You have to look at the entirety of the situation. NATO expansion talk was stupid. Poking the bear was stupid. Russia invading Ukraine was the known outcome of US meddling in Ukraine, back to 2008 at least Whether or not you see benefit to US involvement in Ukraine, this was absolutely a known risk.
So some of us thought US involvement in Ukraine was stupid, and this known outcome is just needless wastes of US taxpayer money, and Ukrainian and Russian lives. There is no need for us to be involved. And every step we take at this point should be towards unwinding the conflict, not needless escalation.
Couple that with all the problems on the domestic front.
What are we protecting the world from? Ukraine has canceled elections. The Biden admin is using unprecedented lawfare to imprison its political opposition. Our southern border is wide open. The current corrupt and incompetent state of the US federal government is not something that needs to be exported anywhere. Conversely, the other side of the aisle argues Trump winning is the end of democracy. Is that something we should export to the world?
If the federal government is going to blow $100s of billions*, it should be spent on our domestic issues, including tax breaks to bring manufacturing back onshore. If we continue to rely on Taiwan for critical pieces of technology we have no future. US running up our national debt to protect Ukraine, while our country falls apart, is not a deterrence to China.
*Edit: the government should not be blowing hundreds of billions regardless. We can’t continue running the deficits we’re running.
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We never would have been here in the first place absent the ulterior motives and incompetent diplomacy.
What is a MAGA isolationist? I am not sure why you reference that, if it is a thing.
Russia has ramped up it Cuba/NKorea rhetoric and connection BECAUSE we have offered Ukraine weapons we had not offered before. It is easy to argue that our position in the world is not safer because of our support for the war and resistance to a resolution.
Certainly Trump and many of his supporters seem to be isolationist. That is what I am referring to. That is a total reversal to what the Republican party position was a few years ago.
You can make the chicken/egg argument about all kinds of things that happened in history. Did we provoke Japan to attack Pearl Harbor? Did Israel provoke the October 7 massacre?
The GOP, at one time, seemed to take the position that our involvement in a war was predicated upon our interests and the wellbeing of our country. Neocons have influenced that position. As have Buchanan isolationists. I am not sure I would call Trump an isolationist, but am not interested in that debate, as it is irrelevant.
I believe that different strategies with regard to this war would have us in a safer world right now, admitting the world is not safe.
Can’t see how anyone looks at the US government’s recent track record in foreign affairs and thinks, “yeah, we definitely need more of that.”
I’m not an isolationist per se, but I would like the US to stop doing stupid shit. Just so happens that’s all they do these days, so opposing each action for specific reasons appears to be blanket opposition to all activity abroad.
I’m not an isolationist per se, but I would like the US to stop doing stupid shit. Just so happens that’s all they do these days, so opposing each action for specific reasons appears to be blanket opposition to all activity abroad.
Well, we HAVEN’T stayed out of it and all of what you are saying is still happening. Why is that?
Also never would've happened sans our (corrupt and incompetent) involvement.
We've created the problem so that we can solve it. The "argument" is self-creating and self-reinforcing. And it has been from the start, not incidentally.
Didn't it take 2 nuke dropped for Japan to finally surrender? lol
those fellas didnt surrender after the fire bombing of Tokyo. It took nukes to end it - which makes your WW2 example pretty silly.
speaking to a fairly high ranking military guy in KY - Ukraine had a chance early on to "defeat" Russia and that time is long gone. i dont have his expertise, but i'll trust his thoughts.
Most would say Russia's declaration of war on Japan was actually the reason. But alas. General Ben Hodges seems to think Ukraine can win. As do many retired US millitary figures. And I'm sure some don't. These are all educated opinions.
Glad to see "Russian disinformation" make its reliable return to the thread.
Exactly. We aren't world police. This isnt even the sympathetic bad guy invades helpless good guy scenario. Its two bad actors, only one of which has any value whatsoever to the US or nato, no show jobs and donations to politicians notwithstanding.
Instead of staying out of it, we're risking open war with the actual formidable party who also happens to be the only one with value whatsoever.
To top it all off, Russia made no move whatsoever until the crossed enough lines in the sand. Then when they moved, they only went to annex part of the Ukraine where all information indicates wants to be annexed.
Absolutely none of it makes sense. Hundreds of smart people cant be making such a poor decision. That is until you consider all the untold millions flowing to western politicians through the Ukraine. It isnt a string of catastrophically bad decisions, its just plain ole corruption. Money well spent.
Yeah. They went to Kyiv. And are currently on an offensive for shits and giggles. They really just want their currenty held land.
So you're saying, we caused Russia to invade (the problem). And now us supplying aid is selling the fix.
Laughable.
If I thought you were open to substantive dialogue, I would.
It's the only conclusion consistent with all the facts.
What facts? What facts do you have we wanted war over peace? The anti-soviet sig is so hilarious.
I think the U.S. and other NATO partners could have kept Russia from invading. We took an Olympics first approach and then even said if they invaded just a little, we would probably stay out. The messaging before the war was awful.
And, we evidently knew this was coming long before Russia amassed power on the border. I am finding it hard to see where we attempted to thwart this through a resolution. Russia, of course, probably thought it could act as it did before in Crimea. But, we could have done more and may have actually wanted this, especially since we believed Russia would steamroll Ukraine.
I agree on your 1st part. But I think we actually thought they were bluffing. If you remember they had a similar buildup in 2021. If you want to point fingers on the American side. Point them at Obama.
You laughed at something you admit your did not understand. And, you don’t want to be called a liberal? 😂
I was asking a question. His pretense that America started the war was funny.
Also, lol
If “we” thought they were bluffing, we are fools. I actually don’t think we thought they were bluffing.
Would you really be surprised if we did? After the Afghanistan withdrawal I wouldnt be.
