Ok, so let's continue our discussion outside the politics thread. Let's do our best to keep it within the rules this time. Me included.
The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)
- Thread starter BigBlueFanGA
- Start date
To understand the far right in Ukraine you need to understand Stepan Bandera. This is the 'hero' of Ukraine they wish to emulate.
en.wikipedia.org
In late 1942, when Bandera was in a German concentration camp, his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 133,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[76][77][78
Swedish-American historian Per Anders Rudling said that Bandera and his followers "advocated the selective breeding to create a 'pure' Ukrainian race[17] and that "the OUN shared the fascist attributes of anti-liberalism, anti-conservatism, and anti-communism, an armed party, totalitarianism, antisemitism, Führerprinzip, and adoption of fascist greetings. Its leaders eagerly emphasized to Hitler and Ribbentrop that they shared the Nazi Weltanschauung and a commitment to a fascist New Europe."[54]
American historian Timothy Snyder has described Bandera as a fascist.[44][nb 13] Political scientist Andreas Umland characterized Bandera as a "Ukrainian ultranationalist", and also told Deutsche Welle that he was not a "nazi", noting Ukrainian nationalism then was "not a copy of Nazism".[15]
Historian David Marples described Bandera’s views as "not untypical of his generation", but as holding "an extreme political stance that rejected any form of cooperation with the rulers of Ukrainian territories: the Poles and the Soviet authorities". For Bandera, Russia was the chief adversary, but he also lacked tolerance for Poles and Jews. Marples also described Bandera as "neither an orator nor a theoretician" and wrote that he had minimal importance as a thinker.[5] Marples considered Rossolinski-Liebe to place too much importance on Bandera's views, writing that Rossolinski-Liebe struggled to find anything of note written by Bandera, and had assumed he was influenced by OUN publicist Dmytro Dontsov and OUN journals.[74]
Ukrainian historian Andrii Portnov writes that Bandera remained a proponent of authoritarian and violent politics until his death.[75]
Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia
In late 1942, when Bandera was in a German concentration camp, his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 133,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[76][77][78
Swedish-American historian Per Anders Rudling said that Bandera and his followers "advocated the selective breeding to create a 'pure' Ukrainian race[17] and that "the OUN shared the fascist attributes of anti-liberalism, anti-conservatism, and anti-communism, an armed party, totalitarianism, antisemitism, Führerprinzip, and adoption of fascist greetings. Its leaders eagerly emphasized to Hitler and Ribbentrop that they shared the Nazi Weltanschauung and a commitment to a fascist New Europe."[54]
American historian Timothy Snyder has described Bandera as a fascist.[44][nb 13] Political scientist Andreas Umland characterized Bandera as a "Ukrainian ultranationalist", and also told Deutsche Welle that he was not a "nazi", noting Ukrainian nationalism then was "not a copy of Nazism".[15]
Historian David Marples described Bandera’s views as "not untypical of his generation", but as holding "an extreme political stance that rejected any form of cooperation with the rulers of Ukrainian territories: the Poles and the Soviet authorities". For Bandera, Russia was the chief adversary, but he also lacked tolerance for Poles and Jews. Marples also described Bandera as "neither an orator nor a theoretician" and wrote that he had minimal importance as a thinker.[5] Marples considered Rossolinski-Liebe to place too much importance on Bandera's views, writing that Rossolinski-Liebe struggled to find anything of note written by Bandera, and had assumed he was influenced by OUN publicist Dmytro Dontsov and OUN journals.[74]
Ukrainian historian Andrii Portnov writes that Bandera remained a proponent of authoritarian and violent politics until his death.[75]
Yes, his history is mixed. It seems that he is generally loved in Ukraine because he is seen as a freedom fighter. His history is complicated.To understand the far right in Ukraine you need to understand Stepan Bandera. This is the 'hero' of Ukraine they wish to emulate.
Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia
In late 1942, when Bandera was in a German concentration camp, his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 133,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[76][77][78
Swedish-American historian Per Anders Rudling said that Bandera and his followers "advocated the selective breeding to create a 'pure' Ukrainian race[17] and that "the OUN shared the fascist attributes of anti-liberalism, anti-conservatism, and anti-communism, an armed party, totalitarianism, antisemitism, Führerprinzip, and adoption of fascist greetings. Its leaders eagerly emphasized to Hitler and Ribbentrop that they shared the Nazi Weltanschauung and a commitment to a fascist New Europe."[54]
American historian Timothy Snyder has described Bandera as a fascist.[44][nb 13] Political scientist Andreas Umland characterized Bandera as a "Ukrainian ultranationalist", and also told Deutsche Welle that he was not a "nazi", noting Ukrainian nationalism then was "not a copy of Nazism".[15]
Historian David Marples described Bandera’s views as "not untypical of his generation", but as holding "an extreme political stance that rejected any form of cooperation with the rulers of Ukrainian territories: the Poles and the Soviet authorities". For Bandera, Russia was the chief adversary, but he also lacked tolerance for Poles and Jews. Marples also described Bandera as "neither an orator nor a theoretician" and wrote that he had minimal importance as a thinker.[5] Marples considered Rossolinski-Liebe to place too much importance on Bandera's views, writing that Rossolinski-Liebe struggled to find anything of note written by Bandera, and had assumed he was influenced by OUN publicist Dmytro Dontsov and OUN journals.[74]
Ukrainian historian Andrii Portnov writes that Bandera remained a proponent of authoritarian and violent politics until his death.[75]
Which led to protest against the coup...
So after a year of pro EU supporters burning and beating pro Russians...
2 of the more ethnically Russian areas held huge protest. They were persuasive enough that the Ukraine military gave up their firing pins in their rifles and refused to attack the area.... which led to nationalist militia groups entering the area to bring war to a political dispute.
Oligarch Igor Kolomoisky, wanted in several different countries including the US, was appointed Governor of the East and brought blood and death to the area. Most of Ukraine wanted peace in the area and to reconcile but Kolomoisky wanted to kill anyone not 100% Ukrainian. Kolomoisky is the guy that stole that billion dollars that Biden bragged about UKr not getting unless the prosecutor was fired.
Russia has very fine people. Minus the cretins in the Kremlin.
Mixed? Killing 60000 Poles because they are Poles... mostly women and children.... Mixed?
After the East declared independence... This guy reports on the ground to give you an idea of how the people llving there actually feel.
I wouldn't live in Russia but it's clear these people would rather be aligned with Russia than Kyiv/Europe. Are we for self-determination or nah?
140000 dead Russians
100000 dead Ukrainians
estimates were 50000 would die in Ukraine. So the war is far more escalated than anyone imagined and is going to escalate further. Soviets have no problem killing and they are killing each other thanks to the west aid of lethal weapons. Make a friggin peace deal. Ukraine isn’t taking those territories back. Why another hundreds of thousands dead maybe millions in the end? Why risk all out wwIII?
It’s definitely on the path to all out nato Russia war and the fact that there has been a pause and everyone could gather their rational thoughts has yielded zero fruit only further escalation. Forget the Russian end game. What is it for nato? I mean going tit for tat with Russia only leads to one outcome because Russia isn’t backing down. I don’t see any scenario Russia rolls over and sucumbs to nato pressure. This war is far more dangerous today than when the original thread was locked.
100000 dead Ukrainians
estimates were 50000 would die in Ukraine. So the war is far more escalated than anyone imagined and is going to escalate further. Soviets have no problem killing and they are killing each other thanks to the west aid of lethal weapons. Make a friggin peace deal. Ukraine isn’t taking those territories back. Why another hundreds of thousands dead maybe millions in the end? Why risk all out wwIII?
It’s definitely on the path to all out nato Russia war and the fact that there has been a pause and everyone could gather their rational thoughts has yielded zero fruit only further escalation. Forget the Russian end game. What is it for nato? I mean going tit for tat with Russia only leads to one outcome because Russia isn’t backing down. I don’t see any scenario Russia rolls over and sucumbs to nato pressure. This war is far more dangerous today than when the original thread was locked.
Last edited:
We are for Russians and Ukrainians killing each other. We are for putting the world on the brink. This isn’t about democracy bc gd knows Ukraine is a perpetually corrupt government very similar to Russia. This thing gets far worse before better in this war. perhaps existentially worse.
Yes, very much mixed. Those killings happened while he was in a nazi concentration camp. Would he have approved? Probably, but his ultimate goal was simple, a free Ukraine full of Ukrainians. Western Ukraine loves him, eastern Ukraine hates him. He worked with the nazis while he believed it helped him reach his goal. He turned on them when he realized they didn't agree with his view of Ukraine.
The nazis arrested him, Russia assassinated him and most of modern Ukraine simply sees him as a national hero for fighting for Ukrainian independence.
Yes, he is very complicated. Here is a good article. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...a-s-legacy-becomes-a-political-football-again
On a bright note, Zelensky just removed another 9 people from the government for corruption. Perhaps you should give them adequate time to reduce the corruption instead of using that issue to automatically malign the country.
Zelensky is corrupt. Ukraine had plenty of time but now let’s give them more of it. It’s all a red herring with this removal for corruption but you buy it hook line and sinker so we get to keep funding the war. Can’t you see the dog and pony show going on with this comedian ? The guy still thrives on attention. Loves showing up for Hollywood elite begging and making emotional pleas.he’s like a televangelist
So again... you don't watch the news report and just disagree with it. He is a reporter with vice news. They did a whole series back in 2014 and 2015.... Hours of interviews and footage. You can tell by their coverage that they were leary of the Pro Russian side as much as the clearly fascist militias. So, I'd call that pretty fair coverage. Just watch it with a half way open mind and see if maybe they had an argument... Hint... most of the Ukrainians in the country agreed with them and wanted the militias to stop the war.
We are a year into a war and the people removed were supposed to be giving gear and food to people on the front line. They were stealing and everyone has been saying that for the last 9 months. Why did it take until now to do something about it? Well, we do have congressional oversight coming so we need some plausible deniability with some fall guys. Zelensky still has his $670 million and Miami mansion. While his own people fight and die in a trench in the Donbas with little food and supplies and very poor medical support for wounded... his wife took a shopping trip to Paris and spent $40,000 for Christmas.
You want war and will justify this anyway you can. Stepan Bandera is historically considered a very bad guy. 2 years ago we wouldn't even be having a debate about him being a scumbag. But because the nationalist in Ukraine have adopted his ideology you feel the need to defend him the same way you will defend anything that results in more war and more death in Ukraine... and they you'll say you are for the people of Ukraine.
No, they haven't had plenty of time. 8 years isn't enough time to make changes that big. If they want to be in the EU and even more so, NATO, they will have to continue improving in this area.
Zelensky doesn't have that money. We've been over this, your papers dont say any such thing. I've asked you to link where they do say it, as usual you tell me to find it myself.
You're the one making the affirmative statement. It's on you to support it. I'm telling you again that is a conspiracy theory and baseless lie.
U mean against Russia, a supposedly threat to the entire world, whom we just recently gave back the “Merchant of Death”.
A notorious arms dealer sent back to the region & the area we are sending record numbers of arms & ammunition to at the moment..
That Russia?
A notorious arms dealer sent back to the region & the area we are sending record numbers of arms & ammunition to at the moment..
That Russia?
I watched it. I don't trust the validity of the vote but even more important, that is Ukrainian land. They don't get to vote to leave any more than the people of Arizona get to vote to leave. It really is that simple. If they want to live in Russia they need to move. Otherwise they need to accept that they are Ukrainian citizens. I'm not sure what else to tell you.
This thread is not different than the previous one. Everything so far is a rehash.
I thought this would be about updates to current situation. Not.
I thought this would be about updates to current situation. Not.
Well, pressure is building on Putin and I'm really curious to see what 80 of Germany's tanks will do to Russia's pathetic army. It's gonna crank up pretty soon.
I'm just hear to say how pissed I am that Nintendo actually delayed Advanced Wars for the Switch for an ENTIRE YEAR!
.. all because the early antagonist in the game is this guy, named Olaf:
Get your shit together, Eastern Europe.. I'm trying to enjoy my video games.
.. all because the early antagonist in the game is this guy, named Olaf:
Get your shit together, Eastern Europe.. I'm trying to enjoy my video games.
Whooooooa!!!! So you’re saying 50,000,000,000 people are estimated to die? Jeez ol Pete gang, we’re about to have 50 TRILLION dead people!!!! Where will we put the bodies!!!!!
If it turns into a pissing contest, It will be removed. If crazy, insane or civil discourse permeates, it's allowed to live on forever.
Relax guy. I typed it from my phone and it throws words in there trying to finish the thought. I fixed it
You've been claiming this for nearly a year. It still hasn't happened. How long do we need to give you before we're allowed to call BS. Oh, nevermind, BS.
Who cares what some dimwit in the EU says? NATO isn't involved in this war. If they were, it would be over.
Actually, that isn't exactly what he said. He said Russia views this as a war against NATO and Ukraine but obviously that is just Russian sabre rattling, as usual. Russia has not and absolutely will not move against NATO in any way. You can bank on that.
Claiming what man? You reply to everything it’s annoying. What have I claimed that hasn’t or could not happen? What’s the end game smart guy? What do you claim? All I read is about how people are stupid, wrong, etc from you. What you think Russia is going to collapse? You think Ukraine is going to push Russia back on its own? You don’t see nato direct involvement now? I mean say something other than “you’re wrong”. What’s friggin right? This is the problem with you. And btw the only thing you ever said was “Putin would be dead by Christmas”. Make your claim or stop criticizing others!!!!
Oh and yeah 250000 dead Ukrainians and Russians. Yeah Russia is just “Saber rattling “. Good grief man they are all in. And 80 German tanks? Where do you come up with this? I read those tanks May not be useable until may the dozen or so. Not 80. The abrams? A year at least before their in use in Ukraine.
Last edited:
Then leave the thread. It's a message board, that's what we do. You've been claiming an escalation to NATO and WWIII for almost a year. You've been called out on it repeatedly by numerous people. I got that number from here. https://www.politico.eu/article/all...-zelenskyy-mark-rutte-spain-norway-joe-biden/
No, there will be no direct NATO involvement. I guess you'll eventually admit it.
I’m not leaving anything buddy. You bring the propoganda like that article. The only thing promised is 14 tanks from Germany the rest is speculation except for the abrams which are a year away.
If you don’t see an escalation to ww3 if you don’t see there is no off ramp at this point, if you don’t see nato direct involvement then you’re blind. Nato is directly involved! There’s no argument. You’re statement they are sending 80 tanks is proof enough. It really is that simple. Because 4-5 guys on a message forum think this thing isn’t headed to ww3 doesn’t mean squat man. I think everyone else sees where it’s going but don’t want to get into it with your vocal minority.
This time last year I was arguing with your same clown crew whether Russia would invade or not. You guys thought they wouldn’t. It was “saber rattling” by Putin. Now we are a year in and a quarter of a million dead on both sides and you think I’m wrong bc ww3 didn’t start overnight. Don’t worry man it’s trending heavily towards all out nato v Russia. Thinking otherwise is dangerous.
Germany says quiet part out loud about Ukraine war
Germany's foreign minister on Tuesday blamed Russia and President Vladimir Putin for "murderous" carnage.
www.newsweek.com
Lots of spin going on here for what german foreign minister said directly.
Western countries sending tanks to Ukraine will prolong war: Croatian president
If US, Russia cannot reach an agreement, the war will not end, says Zoran Milanovic - Anadolu Ajansı
www.aa.com.tr
I am still wondering why people in Amererica would risk thermonuclear war for any country in the Eastern bloc? Especially Ukraine. Yeah, it sucks that this is happening, but do you really think that Russia is trying to take over Europe?
