The Greatest Tennis 🎾 Player of All Time?

[mcnicKY91]

This is part of the reason I was hesitant to start. I don't want to pick at any of them because they're all great. But, as I noted, I prefer Novak.

I would actually say I'm stunned that Rafa has lasted has long as he has given the way he plays. That's a credit to him. On the other hand, I'm not sure I would give him an out for being injured more because the same way he plays that results in injuries also results in his successes.

Yes, I was pointing out that Novak was still winning at the same age as Rafa. But then you introduced the point that Rafa actually had real competition in last year's French. I was just pointing out that last year (which is the age equivalent as this year for Novak), Rafa won the Australian without Novak's participation. Different reason, I know.

Ultimately, for me, what undermines Rafa's claim to greatest is the fact that he has not won two of the 1000s competitions. Moreover, he never once won the End of Year tournament, which is on hard court with the top 8 point getters for the year. Novak and Federer are on the top of that board.

I'm also not sure I buy the Federer past prime...like when does a prime begin and end? Novak won Wimbledon in 2011, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019, beating Federer in the finals of some of those. So when did Federer's prime actually end? Or perhaps, when did Novak's prime actually begin? Some players in any sport bloom later than others. It's interesting that one's prime seems to end when another's begins.

Regardless, thanks for the civil discourse. I post little on the board because I don't think that's typically the case.

Oh for sure it's a fun conversation to have. Not too many people I come across who follow tennis closely enough to have an informed discussion.

And yes, it's always unfortunate when civility goes out the window (which typically happens by the 5th post of 99% of all threads haha). I always enjoy the back and forth when done civility is maintained.

How many more slams do you think Novak will win? I don't see anybody taking more than one set off him at Wimbledon.

The US Open has always been his bugaboo for one reason or another. Crazy to think someone with so much success at the AO doesn't have more titles at the US Open (not that three titles is anything to sneeze at).

As a Rafa fan, I am hoping he can come back and play the clay court swing, the Olympics, and one more US Open (all in 2024). But alas, I feel that is way too ambitious on my end, as I don't believe his body will hold up, even after taking the rest of this year off.

 

[cavalier cats]

I'm assuming Novak has about 2.5 years at a high level left. That would be about the same/time Federer broke down for good. Given the state of the game, I'm fairly confident that he would win at least 3 of the next combined 5 Australians and Wimbledons, beginning a few weeks from now. And if that includes 2 more shots at the French and 3 more US Opens, I would guess he wins 1 more of those. So I think 4 more slams sounds about right. My guess is that his hamstring in Australia and elbow the weeks leading up to the French were legitimate issues and his body is going to start breaking down sooner than his seeming invincibility suggests.

I would love for Nadal to get back for one more year and actually somehow pull of the French next year. But I really believe at this point Alcaraz is the best clay court player in the world and by this time next year he will be better able to pace himself. I see him being the guy to beat at the French for some time going forward. Maybe Rune can catch him. I think that also means Alcaraz is most likely to win the gold medal next year at Roland Garros. What I would love to see, however, is Rafa get back and win the French and Novak somehow pull out the gold medal because that's the only thing that has eluded him.

I am happy about the new crop of potential stars. I find Medvedev to be a refreshing personality, but mostly the "next generation" has been boring on and off the court. Alcaraz, Rune, and Sinner are potentially really exciting guys to launch the real next era.

For those asking about Americans, I just don't see how the sport generates the interest for parents to put their kids into it. Pro tennis has contracted with networks that won't prioritize it. That said, I'm curious to see how Ben Shelton (Florida Gator, boooooo!) develops. The kids hits absolute rockets and moves well. He has a chance. But compared to the international guys, it just seems like he has a lot of ground to make up. And guys like Fritz and Tiafoe have about maxed out their talents, I think.

 

[Wesley91581]

Football
Baseball
Soccer
Basketball
Lacrosse
Hockey
That’s what the kids are choosing nowadays

 

[gamecockcat]

That data is extremely skewed. The HUGE majority of the time a player comes to net from a position of strength and on the attack. That will naturally lead to a high win % on those points. If a player came to the net almost every point arbitrarily, that % would drop significantly.

The game is so much faster now, a true serve and volleyer like Sampras just can’t compete in todays world. If they could, you’d see it.

Disagree to some extent. The tennis stats guru, Craig O'Shaunessy, has, for years stated that coming to the net (serve and volley) is still a very effective strategy (and compiles the data to prove his point) and far too few of the top pros have adopted it. I don't remember the exact numbers but it seems like the data he compiled on true S/V points, the server won something like 70% of the time. IIRC, just a few years ago Federer was asked who was the next Big 3 and he said something to the effect that none of the younger players are very good at the net and, because of that, he couldn't really see anyone dominating like he, Rafa and Joker had.

Alcaraz is amazing as is Medvedev. Neither of them are nearly as good at the net as they are 5 feet behind the baseline. Tsisipas is the same way. Zverev. Ruud. Sinner. All the top pros are known right now for their serve and/or baseline game. The tennis academies gave up on teaching S/V evidently. Much easier to put a kid at the baseline and have them hit 1000 forehands a day.

As for Sampras, not many of today's pros hit the serve as hard or as well as Sampras did. Think he'd do just fine in today's game. Some of today's pros stand so far behind the baseline they couldn't get to a well-struck volley on a motorcycle. A guy like Sinner who bombs serves at 130 mph, stands at the baseline after his serve and lets the returner get back into the point (very few can return a serve that fast much more than just hitting it back) instead of closing the distance and putting away a relatively soft return. Why? Because he hasn't learned how to do it. He could be so hard to defeat if he'd just follow his serve into the net and know how to put it away when there. When everyone plays basically the same style, a true S/V that was proficient at it would be hard to beat, imo.

What I don't understand is the guys playing against baseline automatons and thinking they're going to outgrind them from the baseline. Ruud had no chance against Joker at the French because he plays exactly the same style as Joker and he's not going to out-Joker Joker. The more shots you hit vs a guy like Joker, the more the odds tilt in his favor of winning.

 

[christophero]

He didn't win as many titles but McEnroe at his peak was really, really good. There seemed to be a lot of big names in the 70s and 80s who would just beat up on each other.

 

[cawoodsct]

The last year an American won a tennis grand slam Agassi won one in that same year.

 

[Wesley91581]

That 2001/2002 Agassi/Sampras match was incredible.

 

[WTF Cat]

Just got back from Newport, Rhode Island... home of the International Tennis Hall of Fame.

Saw an exhibit of potentially the most dominant athlete in history: Esther Vergeer, the greatest wheelchair tennis player of all time.

Before you laugh, she ended her career winning the last 470 matches IN A ROW... staying undefeated FOR 10 YEARS.

Her career record was 700-25.

She won every Grand Slam event she entered (21 in a row).

And of course, she posed nude in 2010 ESPN magazine lol (I mean, money's money... right?).

Deets here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther_Vergeer

 

[cawoodsct]

Alcaraz beats Djokovic in Wimbledon final.

 

[DraftCat]

Alcaraz beats Djokovic at Wimbledon.

View embedded media

Best championship I've seen since the 2008 Nadal vs. Federer Wimbledon

 

[mcnicKY91]

It's a shame Alcaraz suffered from cramps during their semifinal meeting at the French Open. Alcaraz had just won the second set and first game of the third set when cramps set in. Feel as though he would have won in 4 sets if not for the cramps.

Entertaining match for sure. Still think this new generation of players is beyond underwhelming. Heck, it took a 20 year old 5 sets to barely squeak by a 36 yr old. Hats off to Novak for his longevity over Fed and Nadal, but watching him inflate the slam count has a hollow feeling, at least for me.

 

[DraftCat]

It's a shame Alcaraz suffered from cramps during their semifinal meeting at the French Open. Alcaraz had just won the second set and first game of the third set when cramps set in. Feel as though he would have won in 4 sets if not for the cramps.

Entertaining match for sure. Still think this new generation of players is beyond underwhelming. Heck, it took a 20 year old 5 sets to barely squeak by a 36 yr old. Hats off to Novak for his longevity over Fed and Nadal, but watching him inflate the slam count has a hollow feeling, at least for me.

Think barring any health concerns, Alcaraz is going to dominate for years.

Not much talent in the pipeline.

 

[cawoodsct]

Best championship I've seen since the 2008 Nadal vs. Federer Wimbledon

Not gonna be one that tops that.

It's a shame Alcaraz suffered from cramps during their semifinal meeting at the French Open. Alcaraz had just won the second set and first game of the third set when cramps set in. Feel as though he would have won in 4 sets if not for the cramps.

Entertaining match for sure. Still think this new generation of players is beyond underwhelming. Heck, it took a 20 year old 5 sets to barely squeak by a 36 yr old. Hats off to Novak for his longevity over Fed and Nadal, but watching him inflate the slam count has a hollow feeling, at least for me.

Well, he’s yet to inflate it. Get to 25 we can talk about that.

 

[mcnicKY91]

Think barring any health concerns, Alcaraz is going to dominate for years.

Not much talent in the pipeline.

I would agree. Was thinking during the match...imagine if Alcaraz didn't exist...I could envision Novak cruising through these slams for the next 2 yrs.

Outside of a healthy Rafa (moreso on clay, maybe at US Open), there is literally no one that can play with Novak in this younger generation. Crazy.

 

[cawoodsct]

Think barring any health concerns, Alcaraz is going to dominate for years.

Not much talent in the pipeline.

For sure. Can see double digit slams with relative ease, which is crazy to even say.

 

[mcnicKY91]

Not gonna be one that tops that.

Well, he’s yet to inflate it. Get to 25 we can talk about that.

I mean, look at the two slams he has won so far this year. Wasn't challenged in the slightest. No competition to speak of. We are talking about a 36 yr old who has steam rolled the competition.

A lot of pundits seem to think Novak is playing the best that he ever has in his career. I think that is ludicrous. 26 yr old Novak would dog walk 36 yr old Novak. Just my thoughts.

 

[cawoodsct]

I mean, look at the two slams he has won so far this year. Wasn't challenged in the slightest. No competition to speak of. We are talking about a 36 yr old who has steam rolled the competition.

A lot of pundits seem to think Novak is playing the best that he ever has in his career. I think that is ludicrous. 26 yr old Novak would dog walk 36 yr old Novak. Just my thoughts.

I agree with you on most but he’s yet to pull away. Hell, Nadal owns a gold medal on hard courts. That’s a slam in my eyes.

 

[gamecockcat]

Alcaraz, at 20, could be dominant for several years. Has a great, all-around game and, with now his 2nd GS, probably good enough mentally to win in tough situations against anyone. If you look at the top 10 right now, #3-10 are all great players who probably won't win a GS ever or, if they do, only 1. Medvedev has won one but seems to stall out in the semis more times than not lately. Tsitsipas, Zverev, Ruud, Fritz, Rune, et al - all really, really good. But, win multiple GSs? I can't see it until Joker retires and only if Alcaraz is hurt or upset early.

 

[DraftCat]

It's Alcaraz world and the rest of us are just living in it.

That said he still has a lot to work on IMO... needs to be more consistent the unforced errors nearly cost him today. Also his serve has lots of room to get better.

I never cared for Joker much but it was cause I was a Federer fan. That said he's truly a resilient mfer it's hard to beat him he never stops coming at ya. That I respect.

 

[gamecockcat]

It's Alcaraz world and the rest of us are just living in it.

That said he still has a lot to work on IMO... needs to be more consistent the unforced errors nearly cost him today. Also his serve has lots of room to get better.

I never cared for Joker much but it was cause I was a Federer fan. That said he's truly a resilient mfer it's hard to beat him he never stops coming at ya. That I respect.

Pretty scary that a guy who has won 2 GS and is only 20 YO 'still has a lot of work to do'. I don't totally disagree, but he's #1 in the world and could bet better. He's gonna be hard to beat if he stays healthy and motivated.

 

[cole854]

Heck, it took a 20 year old 5 sets to barely squeak by a 36 yr old.

Age is irrelevant in this conversation. Novak is still at his peak physically and is the best player in the world on any given day. It isn't as if he barely hanging on and rolled in unseeded.

 

[mcnicKY91]

Age is irrelevant in this conversation. Novak is still at his peak physically and is the best player in the world on any given day. It isn't as if he barely hanging on and rolled in unseeded.

If Novak is still at his peak physically, he would be the first person in the history of sports/athletics to still be in his physical peak/prime in his late 30s. I don't buy that at all. 2011/2015/2016 Novak would physically destroy 2023 Novak in straight sets. You think 2023 Novak would hang with in prime Fed or Nadal? They would destroy him in straights as well.

The fact that Novak is typically dominating a bunch of players in their early 20s (which has always been the physical peak for professional tennis players) speaks to how poor the younger generation of players currently is.

 

[cavalier cats]

Some random post Wimbledon thoughts of mine.

1. Alcaraz is special. Perhaps transcendent. With him, I'm most interested in seeing how his body holds up. He plays all out, all the time. And I get he's only 20, but he's played a ton of matches this year. Of course, when you win them all you don't get much of a break.

2. The old Novak question is interesting. I'm less confident young Novak smashes old Novak. Young Novak had fitness issues. Young Novak's serve wasn't nearly as good. I think young Novak is better than old Novak, but as Novak said yesterday in talking about his career success, one of his best traits has been his adaptability. Old Novak has learned a lot of lessons over the years. I would take young Novak in four tight sets.

3. The stacking W's against weak competition is a bit of a red herring to me. How confident are we that the competition Federer started against was really better than the current landscape? I'm not. Then, with Federer and Nadal, it was basically a two horse race until Novak arrived. I'm not sure that it's too much different now with Alcaraz and Novak. Was Andy Murray significantly better overall than Medvedev? Maybe. But Medvedev on hard court has proven himself quite worthy. Also, I think some of the youth movement is transitioning. If you look at Sinner and Rune, they're both close to be real challengers. Will one or both actually "arrive," we will see. But given their age, it's not unreasonable to think Sinner especially can rise to be a multiple major winner.

4. US Open should be fun. Alcaraz and Novak, hopefully again for the title. I would love to see Medvedev versus Alcaraz again in New York on hard court (and hopefully with Medvedev making some adjustments to where he returns serves). Be interesting to see if the Americans can do anything in New York. Maybe Korda can get back on track after injury.

 

[Catman100]

Sure miss when American tennis was king of the hill.
Will Eubanks continue this run or was it a fluke?

 

[Deeeefense]

Slightly off topic but I've never understood why singles tennis is so much popular with spectators than doubles tennis. Doubles tennis is infinitely more complex, requires coordination and teamwork, requires numerous different strokes often from awkward unpredictable situations. I guess I'm biased because I'm a doubles player but to me it's infinitely more interesting than watching 2 guys with huge serves blast each other back and forth.

 

[cavalier cats]

Slightly off topic but I've never understood why singles tennis is so much popular with spectators than doubles tennis. Doubles tennis is infinitely more complex, requires coordination and teamwork, requires numerous different strokes often from awkward unpredictable situations. I guess I'm biased because I'm a doubles layers but to me it's infinitely more interesting than watching 2 guys with huge serves blast each other back and forth.

I think doubles is more fun and interesting to watch. I agree. That said, I watch almost none of it but avidly follow men's singles. Totally get what you're saying. For me, one of the things I have come to love about singles is that there is no blame. No teammate issues. No (significant) judge/referee/etc issues. It's just 1 v 1. Love that.

 

[Catman100]

Slightly off topic but I've never understood why singles tennis is so much popular with spectators than doubles tennis. Doubles tennis is infinitely more complex, requires coordination and teamwork, requires numerous different strokes often from awkward unpredictable situations. I guess I'm biased because I'm a doubles player but to me it's infinitely more interesting than watching 2 guys with huge serves blast each other back and forth.

I wouldn't know exact statistics related to service games won, but I imagine winning serve is much more prevalent in doubles than in singles. I mean the server in singles has an advantage, the server team in doubles has a bigger advantage. I would think.

And perhaps the limited breaks of serve is boring? I do believe singles tennis has more strategy where as doubles is a lot of get a good serve in and the partner should put away the return.

I might be wrong about that, but yea after the Bryan brothers retired, I only watch doubles by accident.

 

[ukdesi]

Sure miss when American tennis was king of the hill.
Will Eubanks continue this run or was it a fluke?

He has some unique aspects to his game. If he could develop some more consistency in his groundstrokes that would allow him to be a bit more picky on when he comes to the net. Also more consistency in his return game would help. I think he has higher potential than other Americans to win a slam with his height and net game. Not sure a current American can win at a high level with a baseline game.

 

[BigBlueBall]

Think barring any health concerns, Alcaraz is going to dominate for years.

Not much talent in the pipeline.

When Sinner grows into his body and keeps developing, he’s gonna be a problem for Alcaraz. Plenty of other young talent incoming.

 

[BigBlueBall]

Sure miss when American tennis was king of the hill.
Will Eubanks continue this run or was it a fluke?

Lol…Chris Eubanks is a Challenger player, brother.

 

[mcnicKY91]

Djokovic wins yet another masters tournament, playing mostly average tennis. The tour is an absolute joke. Nobody be surprised when he finally completes the calendar year slam at the ripe old age of 37 in 2024. Absolutely pitiful.

 

[Mdnerd]

Djokovic wins yet another masters tournament, playing mostly average tennis. The tour is an absolute joke. Nobody be surprised when he finally completes the calendar year slam at the ripe old age of 37 in 2024. Absolutely pitiful.

Your Djokovic hate is off the charts 🤣

 

[mcnicKY91]

Your Djokovic hate is off the charts 🤣

Nah...not hating on Djokovic at all. In fact, have repeatedly said he is a co-GOAT; however, I am most definitely hating on the tour. It is an absolute joke. Like I said, as long as Novak stays healthy, he may very well win the calendar year slam at 37.

No different than when Nadal was destroying the tour the first half of 2022 before injuries at 36 years old. An absolute joke.

 

[DraftCat]

Nah...not hating on Djokovic at all. In fact, have repeatedly said he is a co-GOAT; however, I am most definitely hating on the tour. It is an absolute joke. Like I said, as long as Novak stays healthy, he may very well win the calendar year slam at 37.

No different than when Nadal was destroying the tour the first half of 2022 before injuries at 36 years old. An absolute joke.

Field has watered down... it's crazy that he's going to go on this run.

He's the GOAT and this is coming from a Federer homer like no other... but it's painful the distance he's putting between Fed and Nadal

 

[mcnicKY91]

Field has watered down... it's crazy that he's going to go on this run.

He's the GOAT and this is coming from a Federer homer like no other... but it's painful the distance he's putting between Fed and Nadal

That's why I don't put any extra stock into what he is doing by further separating himself statistically from Fed/Nadal.

Congrats to Novak for having such great longevity, it really is astounding. But he is beating up on a bunch of mental midgets. This current generation is beyond watered down. Heck, almost everyone in this thread was annointing Alcaraz as some all time player. He has been awful since he won Wimbledon.

Tennis is essentially Novak, and maybe Alcaraz, who again, has been terrible since Wimbledon. Nobody else can challenge Novak consistently, especially in a best of 5 set grand slam. Again, don't be shocked when we are talking about Novak approaching 30 slams in 2025.

 

[DraftCat]

@mcnicKY91 give Alcaraz some time the skill is there... biggest thing from him is he tries to win every shot. He's not picking the right moments and that may come in time.

Joker "the pusher" is just amazing at continuing the rally and waiting for a mistake.

 

[mcnicKY91]

Djokovic wins yet another YEC, blowing through Alcaraz and Sinner to do so.

This competition is pathetic. Anyone else assuming Novak will complete the calendar year grand slam in 2024 at the young age of 37? His only competition is Alcaraz, who has fallen off a cliff since winning Wimbledon.

 

[DraftCat]

Djokovic wins yet another YEC, blowing through Alcaraz and Sinner to do so.

This competition is pathetic. Anyone else assuming Novak will complete the calendar year grand slam in 2024 at the young age of 37? His only competition is Alcaraz, who has fallen off a cliff since winning Wimbledon.

Yup getting pretty sad. Joker will break every record

 

[CondorCat]

Nadal has confirmed he will return in 2024. Not sure how much he has left in the tank. He'd likely be a favorite at the French if healthy again.

Rafael Nadal confirms he’ll play in 2024: “Things are going in the right direction” | Tennis.com

The Spaniard notably didn't provide a timeline for his return to the ATP Tour after spending nearly a year sidelined by injury.

www.tennis.com

 

[mcnicKY91]

Nadal has confirmed he will return in 2024. Not sure how much he has left in the tank. He'd likely be a favorite at the French if healthy again.

Rafael Nadal confirms he’ll play in 2024: “Things are going in the right direction” | Tennis.com

The Spaniard notably didn't provide a timeline for his return to the ATP Tour after spending nearly a year sidelined by injury.

www.tennis.com

As a Nadal fan, I am excited to see his farewell in 2024; however, I am not blind to the fact that Rafa will have been off for an entire year without playing a competitive point. To think his first scheduled event back against competition would be at the Australian Open is not super promising.

Hopefully he can stay healthy enough to build some momentum into the clay season, where he can maybe find some success at RG/Olympics.

But to think that Djokovic's only challenge may be a soon to be 38 year old coming back from a year off is scary. And even then, Rafa will be beyond rusty, and playing with a body that is on borrowed time.