Your punches are about as effective as Pacquiao. At least he had a reason.
So where does the NCAA stand on the Cliff Alexander
- Thread starter nookam
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Your punches are about as effective as Pacquiao. At least he had a reason.
Dude, the players admitted they never went to class, an investigation hired by unc detailed the classes were a sham. Every unc alumnus should be ashamed. Wow, do any of your fans have any integrity at all?
Wow, where did I say their transcripts were forged? Also, where does Wainstein say men's basketball players were ineligible. Point me to one case, please.
At least we know how UNC is lying their way out of the mess. They are trying to claim that bogus classes are legit.
They attend sham courses, A player said he was given grades to remain eligible, we all have seen Peppers transcripts.
Kids are suing unc because they received sham grades. You haven't seen this stuff?
Show us all by copy-pasting the part of the article that says those classes don't count, and those players were ineligible.
And the HUGE difference between Maggette and any other player that the NCAA has proven to take thousands of dollars in illegal benefits is that Maggette or Duke was not punished. I'll say it again in case you missed it, the NCAA admitted they had no proof that Rose cheated but they declared him retroactively ineligible after his career was over. They also admitted that Maggette got thousands of dollars of illegal benefits but they said Maggette didn't know taking money was a NCAA violation.
McCants has stated that he got credit for classes he never attended and had papers written for him. He also produced his transcript showing he was telling the truth. His teammates who said their classes were legitimate have refused to produce their transcripts. Peppers' transcripts have been made public and they show there was academic fraud in his case too.
UNC has been cheating for at least 2 decades and now they have been caught. Now everyone knows what your fans were referring to when they talk about the Carolina Way.
Dude, the players admitted they never went to class, an investigation hired by unc detailed the classes were a sham. Every unc alumnus should be ashamed. Wow, do any of your fans have any integrity at all?
Who else besides McCants'?
You should have been a defense attorney. "You can't prove my client killed him. The fact that he had blood on his hands and was standing over the body with a knife means nothing. The DNA is tainted. The eyewitnesses are all lying. Nobody saw him stab the victim. At most, they saw him pull out the knife. He was trying to help the poor man. You have NO proof he killed him!!!"
Here is the UNC logic:
Yeah, a secretary created fake classes and gave McCants all A's. But, UNC validated the credit granted. Therefore, McCants was eligible.
So, I guess to be consistent, if a secretary at UNC's registrar's office gave out degrees to her friends by entering the info in a computer, UNC would recognize those degrees as legit.
I guess we all now know what kind of academic institution UNC is.
Yeah, a secretary created fake classes and gave McCants all A's. But, UNC validated the credit granted. Therefore, McCants was eligible.
So, I guess to be consistent, if a secretary at UNC's registrar's office gave out degrees to her friends by entering the info in a computer, UNC would recognize those degrees as legit.
I guess we all now know what kind of academic institution UNC is.
Again, the NCAA declared Rose ineligible because (1) the ETS threw out his entrance examination (SAT score), and (2) because his brother received impermissible benefits. Fact (2) forced the NCAA to make Memphis vacate all games from early-mid December, fact (1) forced them to vacate all game he played in.
McCants' publicly mentioned the four (maybe three, not sure) courses he took his last semester as courses where his papers were written for him -- he made some public comments about how unfair it was that he had to go to and do work in his classes prior to those. Those, as I said before, even if you give him all Fs for those classes, it doesn't matter, he's still eligible for the entire season. Also, show me where those classes that Peppers took have been thrown out and I'll start listening. Until then, you just wishing in one hand and crapping in the other.
Yep, now you're finally starting to see the truth. It's really simple. Those classes existed in the catalogue and were signed off by several higher ups (not just the chair of the AFAM department, his bosses also signed off on them), people took those classes, they did the work, turned it in, got grades. Show me a break in that chain and we can start making progress here, otherwise I'm not sure else what to say.
For your second point, imo no. I seriously doubt UNC would not recall those degrees, as they were earned without doing anything or taking any classes.
The plane ticket that Derrick's brother did not pay the school back for was not a cause of vacated games. It was more of a slap on the wrist for that, but Rose's SAT score controversy was the sole cause. Although cleared by the NCAA, they still ruled that due to "strict liability" Memphis must vacate games.
"Strict liability" could be enforced to many situations but the NCAA wields it selectively.
The point of it all is that a University like UNC is a pretty sad institution for allowing those things to go on. And it's complete BS that there wasn't a knowable connection to sports programs. The NCAA is shady by blowing this off like it's out of their jurisdiction.
Just so we're all on the same page, here are the violations involving his brother:
(a) On February 19and March 4, 2008, the brother was permitted to travel on the men's basketball team's charter plane at no cost. The total value of this transportation was approximately $1,125.
(b) On December 14, 15 and 18, 2007, and January 29 and 30, 2008, the brother was permitted to stay at the men's basketball team's hotel at no cost. The total value of this lodging was approximately $588.85
Again, just so we're on the same page, here is the exchange between Memphis and the NCAA:
At the hearing, the institution was asked to provide any additional explanation as to how this could have occurred [that the brother was not charged]. The institution offered no additional explanation. The institution's response to the notice of allegations stated that "the same error could have occurred for any member of the public traveling with the men's basketball team." However, at the hearing, when asked if these types of errors had, in fact, occurred with any other such "members of the public" traveling with the men's basketball team, the institution replied that the brother was the only individual for whom such billing errors had occurred.
Finally, once again, just so we're on the same page, here is the ruling:
Therefore, the brother's receipt of cost-free transportation to and from out-of-town contests, as well as the occasional free lodging at the men's basketball team's hotel in conjunction with these trips rendered student-athlete 1 ineligible from the point they were first received, December 14, 2007.
Ok, so now can we all agree that it was more than a "slap on the wrist" and that regardless of ETS throwing out his SAT score, the NCAA would've still HAD TO HAVE forced Memphis to vacate almost all of their games?
Excuse me... Kiimo hasn't come up for air yet.. When he's ready to tell you what the situation is, he will.
A couple of questions for the UNC fan on here that prefers to whistle past the graveyard while fixating on Rose's brother not being billed by Memphis for one flight and a few nights at a hotel (athletes are allowed to make restitution for receiving far greater sums of illegal benefits every year).
1. So is it your contention, regardless of whether the AFAM courses were listed in the course catalog or not, that legitimate college work was done in these courses and the resulting 3 hour credits and GPA lift were legitimate...including the example we have of the one elementary school-level paragraph written on Rosa Parks by one "student"-athlete which constituted the entirety of his course work for that class in which the "student" was awarded an 'A'?
2, If you can be objective enough to acknowledge the illegitimacy of the AFAM paper classes, again without necessarily concluding that the student-athletes should have therefore been automatically ineligible, how then do you explain why these courses existed in the first place (as I believe you would be hard pressed to find an example of any other institutions awarding college credits for no curriculum, instruction, class attendance, or course work) and why these courses were so heavily and disproportionately populated by football and basketball players as compared to the rest of the student body?
The only logical conclusion is that it was a systemic way of aiding athletes in maintaing the academic progress rates necessary to remain eligible for athletic competition. This, of course, provides an unfair competitive advantage and flies in the face of everything the NCAA purports itself to stand for. I suppose it's possible that, after review of all of the trancripts, that Peppers is the only athlete to have participated in these fake classes at any point outside of the Spring semester of the year in which the athlete concluded his athletic eligiblilty (the Rashad "I made the honor roll without attending a single class" McCants defense), but, given the incredible number of these fake classes that have been acknowledged to have been participated in by these athletes (including the NINE AFAM majors on the 2005 championship team), one would have to suspend all logic and common sense in order to believe so.
1. So is it your contention, regardless of whether the AFAM courses were listed in the course catalog or not, that legitimate college work was done in these courses and the resulting 3 hour credits and GPA lift were legitimate...including the example we have of the one elementary school-level paragraph written on Rosa Parks by one "student"-athlete which constituted the entirety of his course work for that class in which the "student" was awarded an 'A'?
2, If you can be objective enough to acknowledge the illegitimacy of the AFAM paper classes, again without necessarily concluding that the student-athletes should have therefore been automatically ineligible, how then do you explain why these courses existed in the first place (as I believe you would be hard pressed to find an example of any other institutions awarding college credits for no curriculum, instruction, class attendance, or course work) and why these courses were so heavily and disproportionately populated by football and basketball players as compared to the rest of the student body?
The only logical conclusion is that it was a systemic way of aiding athletes in maintaing the academic progress rates necessary to remain eligible for athletic competition. This, of course, provides an unfair competitive advantage and flies in the face of everything the NCAA purports itself to stand for. I suppose it's possible that, after review of all of the trancripts, that Peppers is the only athlete to have participated in these fake classes at any point outside of the Spring semester of the year in which the athlete concluded his athletic eligiblilty (the Rashad "I made the honor roll without attending a single class" McCants defense), but, given the incredible number of these fake classes that have been acknowledged to have been participated in by these athletes (including the NINE AFAM majors on the 2005 championship team), one would have to suspend all logic and common sense in order to believe so.
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And let's not forget that, in addition to the worst academic cheating scandal in the history of intercollegiate athletics, UNC also has the Wheels for Heels program which, if properly investigated, would likely yield more than enough cheating to result in sanctions and probation on its own.
No one can show you what you refuse to see,the NCAA seems to use a double standard when dealing with violations at Kansas and no standard in dealing with violations at UNC or Duke.The dishonesty at UNC is unmatched in the history of college athletics,but they seem to be fine with that and the rest of us just have to live with it for now.
Don't say that too loud,having a house fall on you and being rescued is a clear violation of NCAA rules,improper benefits for sure.
Thanks Dude! You just admitted that this was total lack of institutional control. At best, you have massive incompetence. So, what is a UNC degree worth when we know that other profs were also giving out A's like candy for little work? Boxill gave Peppers an A!
This is often claimed by UNC apologists, but I don't believe anyone has ever independently verified that every one of these fraudulent classes was published in the school's course catalog. (If so then I'd appreciate a link. Preferably a link to all the course catalogs as they were published at the time of registration listing each of these suspect courses.)
There were so many cases unearthed in Dan Kane's articles and the Wainstein report info of classes that were thrown together at the last minute (in comparison to the term beginning) by Crowder etc. to believe that each and every one of them made it into the official course catalog. (i.e. one would expect that there is a fairly significant delay between when a class is created and when it shows up in the published course catalog.)
Without solid evidence to back this up, I think this is one of those claims that's repeated often but isn't actually true.
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B.S, your post reads "those who cheer for Cal"....not the NCAA, nice try though.
So the NCAA loves all the Blue Bloods except UK and is out to get them - is that right?
The specific difference between Rose and Alexander is that AFTER the NCAA alerted the schools they were looking at POSSIBLE eligibility issues with the player, Memphis/Cal elected to play Rose anyway, while KU/Self elected to sit Alexander.
Memphis own attorneys admitted during the NCAA investigation that they knew BEFORE the 07/08 began that Roses qualifying test was being looked at for being a valid test score. Cal played him the whole season and it bit Memphis in the ass.
The day that Self was told Alexander was being looked into because of an eligibility issue Alexander sat and did NOT play another game for KU.
Back to the OPs question, there is no NCAA investigation to continue for Alexander because his parents apparently won't cooperate with the NCAA for them to investigate anything else and now Alexander has declared the issue is basically moot.
Rose: smoking gun - ETS declared his test invalid, so NCAA ruled him Ineligible and Vacated wins AFTER warning Memphis/Cal before season his test could could make him Ineligible.
Alexander: no smoking gun because NCAA can NOT force the parents, Cliff, or the lending institution to talk to them for there to be an investigation to find the smoking gun you want so badly.
First of all regarding Rose I don't wan tot dig back into the details of that case but from what I remember, Memphis was the one who brought up the questions surrounding Rose to the NCAA earlier in the year and at the time the NCAA didn't say anything (or give any warnings) suggesting that he shouldn't participate.
Regarding the 'smoking gun', what a lot of people seem to overlook is that in the past the NCAA never required a 'smoking gun' in order to pass judgement. Many times they've made conclusions that didn't even make basic common sense.
In the end, the NCAA has demonstrated time and time again that they will enforce whatever they choose to (regardless of actual evidence), and will ignore whatever they choose to. It's as simple as that. To prattle on about requiring actual evidence is to be willfully naive as to how the NCAA has operated historically.
Actually, they not only can but should do this. The NCAA can't force ANYONE to cooperate but they can and should threaten the player with retroactive ineligibility for not cooperating. The evidence is already there that he cheated. That is why he sat out the remainder of the season.
An even better example is Maggette. He admitted to lying and cheating. The NCAA exonerated him and Duke of all wrongdoing.
If you don't think there is favortism, explain Maggette to me!
Not sure if it is Cal or UK but yes there is a difference as to how KU,UNC and Duke have been treated by the NCAA in recent years.You are kidding yourself if you choose not to see the difference
JP,
So several posters in this thread claim that Alexander's situation is the same as Rose's and therefore Alexander should be ruled Ineligible by the NCAA and KU should have to forfeit wins like Memphis did when Cal was there. In fact I believe that was the purpose of the OP starting the thread.
I give you the exact, specific details of why the two are completely different and why the UK's fans' demand for NCAA justice re Alexander will be left unfulfilled. Sorry for everyone's disappointment here.
And then you tell me the NCAA is arbitrary and does what they want so I'm niave. Do you feel better now?
I actually agree with UK fans about the UNC academics scandle - pleanty of cause to investigate.
So several posters in this thread claim that Alexander's situation is the same as Rose's and therefore Alexander should be ruled Ineligible by the NCAA and KU should have to forfeit wins like Memphis did when Cal was there. In fact I believe that was the purpose of the OP starting the thread.
I give you the exact, specific details of why the two are completely different and why the UK's fans' demand for NCAA justice re Alexander will be left unfulfilled. Sorry for everyone's disappointment here.
And then you tell me the NCAA is arbitrary and does what they want so I'm niave. Do you feel better now?
I actually agree with UK fans about the UNC academics scandle - pleanty of cause to investigate.
If you think that universities do not behind the curtains...provide tickets to families, transportation at times, & help with lodging. If the NCAA wants to bring someone down they will...plain & simple. When the NCAA wants to shut their eyes & cover their ears they will also.
It was understood that Rose's brother would pay the money back....he didn't. Anyway...you're warped if you somehow think that your joke of an institution creating fake classes so some of you dumb stud ballplayers can win ballgames for you isn't worthy of sanctions then I cannot help your moral meter.
Now concerning Alexander, Self knew. Don't be stupid. If they are as careful as they say they would've pulled back after UK & MSU backed off because they smelled a rat. Don't be stupid. Cliff knew also...of course he's going to play dumb, but he knew. Strict liability should be applied if NCAA has any sense of fairness at all. But they don't & they won't do anything.
blow smoke up somebody else's ass, will you? Believe this: If the EXACT circumstances involving Cliff Alexader happened with the UK program or with John Calipari the NCAA would come down hard and heavy, swift and furious, with vengeance and justice, with "strict liability," and punks like you would be on here puffing yourselves left and right about how it was because the conditions were somehow different that UK and Calipari deserved NCAA retribution but, in fact, the only things that would be different would be the UK and Calipari components themselves.
Lawyers stand in front of judges and lose minor dissimilarity defense arguments all the stinking time and that's exactly what and why you're losing now.
This is what you seem to be missing, the classes were and still are legit -- they counted towards a degree and still do. Also, I'm not sure why you keep saying no-work classes, can you provide a link that says the students did not do any work? It doesn't say that in the article you provided. I'm also still waiting for one link to an article which says anyone was ineligible.
Yeah! Now we're getting somewhere. This was a total fubar on behalf of those academics. Just think about this, the chair of AFAM was being evaluated throughout this entire time; i.e., they saw all of these independent study courses, yet no one said anything. So, should a basketball coach question the dean of a college about why he's offering certain courses? You can say sports teams took advantage of these classes, but that is all. Blame UNC for having the wrong people in charge.
Really?
"By the way, we've yet to see if any of UNC's players were actually ineligible. We'll have to wait for the NCAA for that. I would expect those who cheer for Cal to respect and wait for the NCAA's voice, considering they are the only ones, besides his fans, who've cleared Cal of cheating. Wait, did you not believe them when they did that?"
Not sure how this is ambiguous.
Actually, you are now distorting the facts. First, someone did question the IS. In one of the emails, Crowder says that questions are being raised. Second, you need to read the recent post by Willingham analyzing the email. She shows that Roy's handpicked advisor knew EXACTLY what was going on. To claim otherwise is to outright lie.
And finally, Roy told us that he KNEW exactly what his players were doing in the classroom and he was proud of them. Do you honestly think Roy thought Swahili could be a "paper class?"
You seriously remind me of an unethical defense attorney doing everything to distort the facts to get a scumbag off the hook so he can continue to assault more victims.
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