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The problem is this, Wallace needs to be the PG and Wheeler cannot play off the ball.But, if the issue is who should be in the starting lineup, isn’t the real question not Wheeler vs. Wallace, but instead Wheeler vs. Fredrick?
I think we all agree that Wallace is our best guard. So the real question is who should start beside him …Wheeler or Fredrick. I could buy in to the latter option if CJ was playing like a guy who’d earned that starting spot …but so far that hasn’t happened.
Perhaps we should revisit this thread topic later after CJ has started playing better.
I don't really put much stock in this. Ulis was not the problem at all on that 2016 team. He didn't have enough help around him. Harrow just wasn't that good (and didn't have help). Wheeler certainly wasn't perfect in that loss but no one was hitting shots consistently.Another thing to think about is that Cal has had very little success with starting point guards 6’0 or under:
2013- Harrow- NIT first round loss
2016- Ulis- NCAA 2nd round loss
2022- Wheeler- NCAA 1st round loss
Just food for thought.
I absolutely love Livingston's potential and I want him to get more minutes and be ready for an impact come March. But, I think we need him at the 4. Don't think we can really have him at the 3 and Toppin at the 4 together in the lineup. Feel like it's gotta be one or the other.The real question is this: Is a guard combo of Wallace/CJ (or Reeves) better than a starting combo of Wheeler/Wallace? Wheeler is not a 2 guard so if he's benched and reduced to 8 mpg, either CJ or Livingston have to soak up those minutes. Is Livingston ready...is CJ good enough at this level. Kind of a close call IMO.
You are arguing with someone that thought the dragon should play over IQ. Along with all the rest of the cult.Why would a UK fan have an agenda against Wheeler in favor of Wallace?
I could see why the family and close friends of each player would have an agenda for one or the other, but all UK fans want is the best players on the court in order to win games.
I don’t understand why you view your fellow fans so negatively. And what I really don’t get is why you would want to associate with folks you think so lowly of.
If CJ was playing like we all thought he would, or if Toppin was more of an outside threat, we might not be in this predicament but, as it stands now, I feel like we kind of have to have Wheeler in there. And I do agree that Livingston at the 4 is a better option than Toppin just given his better ability to hit the 3.If we are going to keep Wheeler in the starting five, then I make the case that Livingston needs to replace Toppin at the 4. With Wheeler and Tshiebwe as non-shooters, we need three shooters out there with them. Wallace and Reeves give us two, and Livingston gives us a third. If your 1 can’t shoot, your 4 better be able to.
That’s my compromise, though I still say we won’t make it very deep in the tourney with a 5’8 weak shooter as our starting PG.
If stupid, out-of-control shots at the end of the shot clock or 3-point bricks early in the shot clock count, Wheeler's A:TO ratio would be <1I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.
Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.
There is no agenda - in fact, I talk about Wheeler's ability to distribute being one of the biggest reasons he should maintain his starting role on today's episode!Funny how a poll on point guards doesn’t include assists. Doesn’t include turn overs. Agenda much?
No agenda here - just trying to figure out what fans think. First thing I talk about on the podcast episode that I discuss this is Wheeler's ability to distribute the basketball and maintain the pace of the game. It's too valuable to give up. It's definitely too valuable to take out of a starting role. Seniority and talent outside of scoring is what should keep him in the startling lineup.I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.
Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.
Here’s the thing. You’re right. Against pressure wheeler is better. The comment on penetration though I’m not buying. Wheeler gets into the lane and misses as many layups as he makes. Back to the pressure comment though, Wallace is only playing like 5-10 min of pg and that has gone down. He needs to be running it because he’s a stud in all other areas and is a FRESHMAN who will be dealing fine with the press by mid season. He has the potential to get better. He can get to the rim if that’s what’s needed but your warping the stats of a guy who is playing a low share of the same spot. The only time Wallace and wheeler didn’t play together Wallace nearly had a triple double. The guy is like Lynn Bowden was to the fb team in 2019 when he played qb. This is what you guys don’t realize. Wheeler is wildly inconsistent and here’s this guy who’s not only better but oozes massive potential. A guy for us to succeeed needs the ball in his hands 50% of the time.I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.
Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.
I think that would be tellingI would love to see the stats for each while playing together vs only one of them on the floor.
If he is not the one with the ball in his hands distributing, I see no reason for him on the floor, we have 7-8 guys I’d rather have shooting a jumper, and at least 10 I’d rather see posting up.Honestly, I'd be fine with Wheeler playing 30 mpg. I just don't want him being the decision maker when the court is shrunk and their is less than 5 minutes to go.
It isn't even his fault, it is Cal.
If he is not the one with the ball in his hands distributing, I see no reason for him on the floor, we have 7-8 guys I’d rather have shooting a jumper, and at least 10 I’d rather see posting up.
I think I could live with him in at the end of the game just as long as the ball isn't in his hands at the end of the shot clock each possession. Attack and do what he does in transition and early in the shot clock. If nothing is there, get it over to Wallace to take over at the end of each possession.I agree, my point is I think he has value...just don't want him in at end of game.
It's a logical fallacy to appeal to majority opinion gromcat. I know the game pretty well. You've agreed with me very often until my opinion goes against your bias. I'm not slamming Wallace. I think he's an elite guard who is probably the best player on the team in regard to pro potential. He's just not as good a facilitator as Wheeler. The stats bear that out. The eye test bears it out. Agreeing with a bunch of biased and angry people only makes you part of an angry mob, not right. Conscensus doesn't mean truth. You're all talk Gromcat, no substance. It's hilarious, you're trying to bully me. I have to laugh. This isn't a junior high cafeteria. Continuing to insist something is true despite facts to the contrary only makes you obtuse and stubborn.It’s funny watching you say this when it’s nearly a consensus now that Wheeler doesn’t need to be the primary point guard. Also what about steals? A very important stat for a guard.
You went all in on Calipari’s choice simply because that was Calipari’s choice. It hasn’t worked out and you are content on being obtuse on this IL. I just don’t see why you want to choose this as a mountain to die on?
Wheeler is not the guy you want in this role. It’s not debatable. It’s as clear of a fact as we’ve seen on any of our teams. And if he’s running point in the tournament we are going home.
Honestly I thought you understood basketball a little better then this. I really don’t think you fully understand the game at this point. It’s a totally ridiculous opinion to want Wheeler in the position you want him in. It’s not even worth arguing anymore.
Nice. His actual a:to ratio is 3.46, which is elite.If stupid, out-of-control shots at the end of the shot clock or 3-point bricks early in the shot clock count, Wheeler's A:TO ratio would be <1
I agree with you and it's clear Calipari does too. Despite the accusations of my being a homer for Wheeler for whatever reason, I actually love Wallace too. I want him starting also and he is a solid pg backup to Wheeler. His other skills, 3pt shooting, athleticism, creating steals, finishing in traffic in the lane, and other attributes, make him an elite guard. He's just not as good a facilitator. Wheeler's ability to create pace, as you say, is a big part of that as well. We all say, this team needs to play fast to be at its best. Wheeler is the one who makes the team go, in both the full court and the half court. Now, the absolute best thing for this team would be for Wallace to truly challenge Wheeler as a playmaker and force Calipari to play him more at point. He's not there yet. Right now he's better off the ball as a primary scorer than as a facilitator.No agenda here - just trying to figure out what fans think. First thing I talk about on the podcast episode that I discuss this is Wheeler's ability to distribute the basketball and maintain the pace of the game. It's too valuable to give up. It's definitely too valuable to take out of a starting role. Seniority and talent outside of scoring is what should keep him in the startling lineup.
Just was scrolling through some numbers and figured I'd share them because I genuinely don't have a great grip on what the fanbase thinks of him and I thought it would spark good conversation. The only in person conversations I've had about him have been with fans saying they hate him. I defended him all last season.
Hey, at least you are trying to be reasonable. I appreciate it. Wheeler isn't the awful player some make him out to be. He is frustrating at times, no doubt. He gets in too deep with nowhere to go sometimes. But here is the thing with Wheeler- his fast play also turns into wide open shots for someone often. So, what do you do with a player like that? Do you handcuff him and tell him to stop driving and stop trying to make plays or do you let him go and ask him to be smarter about it? Well, he has 52 assists and only 15 turnovers on the season. So, despite his erratic play at times, he's making more plays than he's turning it over, by a long shot. So, if I'm his coach, I tell him to keep driving and keep looking for the easiest and best play. Benching him would be a huge mistake. So, game by game, depending on his play, you play him more or less. He's got to start making free throws, though, or he's out at crunch time.Here’s the thing. You’re right. Against pressure wheeler is better. The comment on penetration though I’m not buying. Wheeler gets into the lane and misses as many layups as he makes. Back to the pressure comment though, Wallace is only playing like 5-10 min of pg and that has gone down. He needs to be running it because he’s a stud in all other areas and is a FRESHMAN who will be dealing fine with the press by mid season. He has the potential to get better. He can get to the rim if that’s what’s needed but your warping the stats of a guy who is playing a low share of the same spot. The only time Wallace and wheeler didn’t play together Wallace nearly had a triple double. The guy is like Lynn Bowden was to the fb team in 2019 when he played qb. This is what you guys don’t realize. Wheeler is wildly inconsistent and here’s this guy who’s not only better but oozes massive potential. A guy for us to succeeed needs the ball in his hands 50% of the time.
Yet you don't mention anything but shooting stats in your post. That's a massive problem on this board, cherry picked stats. Not to mention that rags and riches are thought to be founded in nothing more flimsy than 3 pt shooting percentages. This narrow view figures heavily into agenda based posting by many. Bottom line is that Wheeler is a much better rounded point guard at this point in time. Wallace has great potential and is developing fast but he is also lucky to have Wheeler to learn from as well. Coaches are playing these two about right. Of course they are much better qualified and look at far more than a single stat.There is no agenda - in fact, I talk about Wheeler's ability to distribute being one of the biggest reasons he should maintain his starting role on today's episode!
That seems logical.I think I could live with him in at the end of the game just as long as the ball isn't in his hands at the end of the shot clock each possession. Attack and do what he does in transition and early in the shot clock. If nothing is there, get it over to Wallace to take over at the end of each possession.
I was trying to understand your position so that we could have a discussion. I never suggested we ignore those things and if you think I did I would ask you provide the quote where I completely disregarded those stats like you suggested I did.So let’s ignore assists, defense, TO and everything else to pick the best point guard. The hottest shooter is NOT the best player. Dohhh!!!!!
Totally agree with this.It's a logical fallacy to appeal to majority opinion gromcat. I know the game pretty well. You've agreed with me very often until my opinion goes against your bias. I'm not slamming Wallace. I think he's an elite guard who is probably the best player on the team in regard to pro potential. He's just not as good a facilitator as Wheeler. The stats bear that out. The eye test bears it out. Agreeing with a bunch of biased and angry people only makes you part of an angry mob, not right. Conscensus doesn't mean truth. You're all talk Gromcat, no substance. It's hilarious, you're trying to bully me. I have to laugh. This isn't a junior high cafeteria. Continuing to insist something is true despite facts to the contrary only makes you obtuse and stubborn.
So, let me say it again. Wheeler is the best point guard on the team right now. Maybe by the end of the season Wallace will overtake Wheeler, but I tell you this- he's got to handle ball pressure better and he's got to be able to get by his man and get into the lane. He can't do either right now. He is superior in many ways, as I mentioned above (and creating steals is another elite skill of his) but as a pure point guard he's behind Wheeler. Sahvir is the quickest guy on the team by a long shot. He can almost always get by his man. He can get into the paint almost at will and he can create for himself and others. In fact, without help from others, I don't think there is a guard who can stay in front of him. Observe Gromcat, just watch the game. Do you still watch the games? I only ask because it seems clear you don't know the players.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying Wheeler is a better overall player than Wallace. I'm simply saying that he's not as good a point guard. And there is no shame in that, by the way. I know you've decided Wheeler is your enemy and you can't stand the kid, but he's an elite distributor and facilitator. This is not my opinion, it's a fact. Even after a 1 assist outing against Yale, Wheeler is still #22 in the nation in assist rate. Wallace is #309. Wheeler has 52 assists and 15 turnovers on the season. That's a 3.46 a/to ratio, which is elite. Wallace has 39 assists and 18 turnovers. That's a 2.16 a/to ratio, which is also good but not elite. I'm sure you'll call me some more names, you and the rest of the mob. The facts are on my side on this one. The mob is on yours. Too bad for you I'm not a coward.
But if he is not creating, he serves no purpose on the floor, because it is literally 4 on 5 at that point. If he has the ball, at least him driving is a threat. If he is spotted up for a 3, = no threat.I think I could live with him in at the end of the game just as long as the ball isn't in his hands at the end of the shot clock each possession. Attack and do what he does in transition and early in the shot clock. If nothing is there, get it over to Wallace to take over at the end of each possession.
I get frustrated with him at times but you are talking about a guy who has led the SEC in assists back to back years. Doesn't typically sound like a guy who should clearly be restricted to a limited role.Or just let Wallace be the point guard and spell him with Wheeler.
Like it’s always done. What is with this wheeler is a backup pure and simple.
I get frustrated with him at times but you are talking about a guy who has led the SEC in assists back to back years. Doesn't typically sound like a guy who should clearly be restricted to a limited role.
But we're #1 in ending generational poverty, so there's thatBoth Wheeler and Wallace shooting in the upper 50's in free throws. The team is 237th in FT's. The team is 213th in three point shooting. And the team is 155th in defense. A good thing the game is not about shooting and defense. Think we have everything else covered though.
YesJust taking a look at some numbers and thought I'd share them and ask this question to y'all. I see a lot of love and hate for Wheeler online so I figured I'd see what you guys think about this:
All stats can be found at Hoop-Math, KenPom ($), and Sports Reference.
Some Sahvir Wheeler stats:
2021 eFG: 47.1%
% of shots at the rim: 41.2%
FG% at the rim: 63.4% (2nd worst on the team behind Davion Mintz)
FT%: 78.0%
2022 eFG: 44.0%
% of shots at the rim: 41.8%
FG% at the rim: 53.6%
FT%: 59.1%
Cason Wallace stats:
2022 eFG: 64.7%
% of shots at the rim: 20.6%
FG% at the rim: 78.6% (3rd on the team, Better than Tshiebwe)
FT%: 57.1%
3PT%: 51.6%
Obviously a small sample size for Wallace. His eFG% is sure to go down - there's no way he finishes above 50% 3PT either. But so far, he's looked like the better guard, and has the second-best assist rate on the team behind Wheeler - has also been more efficient as a scorer.
What do you guys think? Should Cason Wallace start at PG over Sahvir Wheeler?
Will drop my thoughts here now that everyone has had a chance to give their opinion:
No agenda here - just trying to figure out what fans think. First thing I talk about on the EP I discuss this is Wheeler's ability to distribute the basketball and maintain the pace of the game. It's too valuable to give up. It's definitely too valuable to take out of a starting role. Seniority and talent outside of scoring is what should keep him in the startling lineup.
Just was scrolling through some numbers and figured I'd share them because I genuinely don't have a great grip on what the fanbase thinks of him and I thought it would spark good conversation. The only in person conversations I've had about him have been with fans saying they hate him. I defended him all last season.
let me preface my answer in a way that everyone can understand and appreciate. If the coach’s goal is to win a title? It would already have happened. If the coach’s goal is to get more draft picks, because let’s face it, that’s why we are all here, then No let’s let Wheeler play 35+ minutes a game, lose 12-15 games and end our season the second week of March.Just taking a look at some numbers and thought I'd share them and ask this question to y'all. I see a lot of love and hate for Wheeler online so I figured I'd see what you guys think about this:
All stats can be found at Hoop-Math, KenPom ($), and Sports Reference.
Some Sahvir Wheeler stats:
2021 eFG: 47.1%
% of shots at the rim: 41.2%
FG% at the rim: 63.4% (2nd worst on the team behind Davion Mintz)
FT%: 78.0%
2022 eFG: 44.0%
% of shots at the rim: 41.8%
FG% at the rim: 53.6%
FT%: 59.1%
Cason Wallace stats:
2022 eFG: 64.7%
% of shots at the rim: 20.6%
FG% at the rim: 78.6% (3rd on the team, Better than Tshiebwe)
FT%: 57.1%
3PT%: 51.6%
Obviously a small sample size for Wallace. His eFG% is sure to go down - there's no way he finishes above 50% 3PT either. But so far, he's looked like the better guard, and has the second-best assist rate on the team behind Wheeler - has also been more efficient as a scorer.
What do you guys think? Should Cason Wallace start at PG over Sahvir Wheeler?
Will drop my thoughts here now that everyone has had a chance to give their opinion:
No agenda here - just trying to figure out what fans think. First thing I talk about on the EP I discuss this is Wheeler's ability to distribute the basketball and maintain the pace of the game. It's too valuable to give up. It's definitely too valuable to take out of a starting role. Seniority and talent outside of scoring is what should keep him in the startling lineup.
Just was scrolling through some numbers and figured I'd share them because I genuinely don't have a great grip on what the fanbase thinks of him and I thought it would spark good conversation. The only in person conversations I've had about him have been with fans saying they hate him. I defended him all last season.