Would take rezoning everywhere, I would assume, but converting corporate leased buildings into affordable residential space would do America a lot more good than forcing people to go work in an office if they don't need to.
Return to Office
- Thread starter Perrin75
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Before/after pandemic office numbers aren't close to comparable. Many firms are pushing for a RTW strategy or at least, a hybrid model vs. full remote, especially in larger corporate environments....NYC, LA, Boston, etc. Companies that are true to their obligations as a productive member of society, especially. This doesn't just affect them....it has a massive financial impact on others when companies shy away from RTW responsibilities.
Already being tried all around the country, but has proven to be very difficult to convert office space into living space for all kinds of reasons.
As usual, the right answer is down the middle. Not everything Daddy Elon says is right. The answer depends on the job, the employee, etc. We’ve been mostly WFH since COVID, and recently more of a hybrid with most days WFH and in the office as needed. Since COVID, we’ve been way more productive than before. Personally, I’ve hyper-productive at home. A lot of my time in my job is spent in meetings (like I bet most of all of yours is too). Before WFH, you sat in meetings and didn’t get much done. Now I can listen to the meeting but also knock out email, update charts, answer my employees questions on TEAMS chats, etc. You can get way more done at home with limited interruptions. No more having to listen to everyone’s stories of how the weekend went, what their kids are up to, or hear them complain about their boss.
As far as some people abusing it, no doubt they do. But those same people abused time in the office too by taking longer breaks, walking around talking to people, etc. I’m a supervisor, I have one guy I have to nudge more than others. The rest are awesome and I keep up with them to make sure they’re good. I have one remote worker who obviously never comes in. Best employee on my team.
Current routine is to get up and ready, log on within 15 minutes of getting ready and start my day. Previous routine also added a longish commute to get there, plus the constant distractions while I’m there, plus having to leave by a certain time to get the kids. None of that applies now. So again, how is WFH less productive besides Elon saying it is?
As far as some people abusing it, no doubt they do. But those same people abused time in the office too by taking longer breaks, walking around talking to people, etc. I’m a supervisor, I have one guy I have to nudge more than others. The rest are awesome and I keep up with them to make sure they’re good. I have one remote worker who obviously never comes in. Best employee on my team.
Current routine is to get up and ready, log on within 15 minutes of getting ready and start my day. Previous routine also added a longish commute to get there, plus the constant distractions while I’m there, plus having to leave by a certain time to get the kids. None of that applies now. So again, how is WFH less productive besides Elon saying it is?
It’s been headed this way for a long time and only makes sense. At some employers will ask “why is it my job to keep you motivated”? Either you’ll want the money and meet the requirements or you won’t.
I have been remote since March 2020. I quit my last job when we were forced to return to the office in late 2021. Just said F it, I’m out. Why? I needed a laptop and the internet to do the work. I lived 60 miles from the office and spent no less than 10 hours of my own time driving to and from work each week. I put 30K in mileage on my car in a year just commuting. I had to leave at the crack of dawn, wouldn’t get home until almost dark and would have about 4 hours of free time before I went to bed. Got old quickly.
Now, I roll out of bed, piss, brush teeth, make coffee and login. My commute is 5 minutes. When the day is over, I close the computer and am already home. My evening free time is now closer to 8 hours because I can stay up later and sleep later.
I come to work to work, not socialize. I am twice as productive from my quiet house as I am in a loud office.
As for the government, it doesn’t shock me they over leased space and now want to force warm bodies to fill chairs so they get a proper ROI.
I also think extroverts who can’t exist without human interaction prefer office work, where introverts such as myself prefer to be left TF alone to do our thing. I’m grown. I’ll get it done. Don’t worry, boss man. I also think it’s an age thing. From my experiences, 40s and under prefer working remote. 50+ prefers working in office because it’s how they were conditioned to work.
Now, I roll out of bed, piss, brush teeth, make coffee and login. My commute is 5 minutes. When the day is over, I close the computer and am already home. My evening free time is now closer to 8 hours because I can stay up later and sleep later.
I come to work to work, not socialize. I am twice as productive from my quiet house as I am in a loud office.
As for the government, it doesn’t shock me they over leased space and now want to force warm bodies to fill chairs so they get a proper ROI.
I also think extroverts who can’t exist without human interaction prefer office work, where introverts such as myself prefer to be left TF alone to do our thing. I’m grown. I’ll get it done. Don’t worry, boss man. I also think it’s an age thing. From my experiences, 40s and under prefer working remote. 50+ prefers working in office because it’s how they were conditioned to work.
My company provided me with a laptop and we get new ones every 3-5 years on a rolling scale by last name. I am responsible for providing internet service that meets certain speed requirements. I bought my own second monitor, wireless mouse and keyboard. So, they’re out $400 on a laptop for each WFH employee. But, those same employees receive that same laptop if they work in office, so that expense is already included.
My company also sold off its giant HQ, downsized into a much smaller building it already owns, and granted anyone who wanted it permanent WFH status. We saved several million dollars and apparently avoided a round of layoffs with the money saved selling that big, mostly empty office building.
Because so many cities were allowed to devolve into crime riddled cesspools thick with bums. Thats why people couldn't wait to leave downtowns when the clock hit their hour, often to find their car was broken into while they were working. All while paying through the nose for parking
Every mayor begging companies to come back stuck their head in the sand while these companies advised of their employees complaints.
Turns out if you make downtown a place where fun can thrive, you don't have to beg people to be there.
Sorry, but that is not my point at all. It is very difficult from a construction standpoint to convert a commercial office building into apartments with the type of amenities people expect like soundproof walls, multiple bathrooms in every unit, windows in every room etc. There are construction professionals who post on here who can explain in more detail than I, but it is much more difficult than simply putting a few dry walls up and calling an office building an apartment or a condominium. It can be done, but it is by no means cheap affordable housing.
It’s absolutely beautiful, my friend.
I use my lunch to knockout some dishes or laundry or to run quick errands and eat a sandwich at my desk if there’s not enough time to eat. Most days, my evenings are pure leisure time as compared to coming home pissed off daily from driving 60 miles one way and fighting major metro area traffic at 8 a.m and 5 p.m.
It’s worked wonders for my level of stress and general happiness.
I work from home every day and if I was in the office I’d still spend my day on video calls with people around the world. Having said that, I actually prefer to have a local office. I kind of miss the camaraderie. I disagree it hurts productivity, but it can lead to a more isolating culture.
There is the problem of cities losing out on office space tax revenue.. and that's going to pile up. We still have leases on office spaces that aren't up yet from covid. Some are 3 years some are 5 and some are more.
Not sure what the answer is here. I totally understand the thought process behind pushing RTO.. we need the tax revenue and we also need the secondary economies around office areas (your coffee shops, restaurants, convenient stores, etc). Not only are office vacancies slamming cities like NY, but a lot of the local businesses are struggling too. Lost tax revenue means program funding/infrastructure/city improvements dwindle, then lost jobs. Local businesses that rely on offices being staffed also lose jobs (but I guess suburb businesses all get a boost from WFH so idk).
It really seems so much of what society is built on, comes from people commuting to jobs and working in an office. So i get the concern of where we are heading.
Not sure what the answer is here. I totally understand the thought process behind pushing RTO.. we need the tax revenue and we also need the secondary economies around office areas (your coffee shops, restaurants, convenient stores, etc). Not only are office vacancies slamming cities like NY, but a lot of the local businesses are struggling too. Lost tax revenue means program funding/infrastructure/city improvements dwindle, then lost jobs. Local businesses that rely on offices being staffed also lose jobs (but I guess suburb businesses all get a boost from WFH so idk).
It really seems so much of what society is built on, comes from people commuting to jobs and working in an office. So i get the concern of where we are heading.
I know it wasnt but it should be. In many cities, living downtown is desirable and maintains downtown hospitality on their own. Commuters are gravy.
The other cities, the ones i described, are the ones having problems. Noone wants to downtown for any reason, so there is no interest in living downtown. Without that market, noone is going to build or convert anything nor should they.
These mayors created their own mess. Now theyre trying to strong arm companies into interjecting their mandates to overcome the market and social forces.
My solution: There's probably going to have to be some sort of compromise. Workers just arent gonna go back into an office 5 days a week and I think its unfair to ask them to. If a company does this, that company is either going to 1. have to pay more in salary or 2. live with the fact that good talent will go to the companies that DO offer WFH.
So create a policy where staff comes in 2-3 days a week, and utilize shared desks and hotel-ing space for those workers. Not everyone needs a desk especially if half the staff isn't even there. That way companies can shrink office space to save some money as they will only ever be at 60% capacity.. state and local governments will still get better tax revenue than they are now.. and workers still get a huge benefit of WFH a few days a week.
So create a policy where staff comes in 2-3 days a week, and utilize shared desks and hotel-ing space for those workers. Not everyone needs a desk especially if half the staff isn't even there. That way companies can shrink office space to save some money as they will only ever be at 60% capacity.. state and local governments will still get better tax revenue than they are now.. and workers still get a huge benefit of WFH a few days a week.
Downtown Albany is an absolute mess. Less percentage of workers in the various "highrise" buildings have caused many ancillary businesses to go belly up. Crime is through the roof. And no one wants to go near downtown Albany. What once was the happening place to be and vibrant is now kind of a ghost town.
Now, part of that is a shit stain mayor. And there are neighboring cities that seem to have adjusted just fine.. but Albany is home to the state workers and that's a HUGE pool of workers. Albany was where people went to work. Once lots of them went remote, Albany hit a real rough patch and it might be a long time before it comes back.
Downtown Washington, DC has had a noticeable downturn since the pandemic ended too. Far fewer feds coming into the office, and those that do, usually only do so a few days each week. It's not as bad as Albany sounds, but there are a few areas that had become much nicer and developed (e.g., the Chinatown/Gallery Place area) where now every 2nd or 3rd storefront is empty. That area was a complete shitpile when I did my undergrad in DC in the mid-90s, but starting in the early 2000s, it really improved. Now that's being reversed.
Like in Albany, you also have stupid local government with an incompetent mayor, and of course it's an unaccountable, one-party system.
This. This right here. It saves SO much time and employees are generally happier. Now, tbf, WFH is not for everyone and some people absolutely abuse the crap out of it. But for those that can, I see no issue. If 90% of your work is done sitting at a computer, why on Earth does it matter where you do that work at? When I was able to WFH, I got so much more done work and home wise. It's gonna be the way of the future for some jobs, obviously not all.
The time you know it's about control is when some of those jobs get sent overseas. Like, oh, so in office only matters for US workers. Gotcha.
The problem lies in the cost of that commuting. Gas prices keep going up. Car prices keep going up. Car repair costs keep going up. At some point you are getting paid to only cover the costs of your commute. It's like a bad joke. I don't like a lot of it either. And companies really should be open to hybrid models. No one wants to commute 60-90 minutes 5 days a week. Especially without public transport. As some one who had a 1 hour commute each way, it got old.....quick. The other issue becomes housing and rent has made it a lot harder for commuters to think about moving. That's a huge commitment to a job that may get rid of you on a whim as well (see the huge layoffs this past year).
I don't know man. A lot of it is broken and there's no easy answers. But we've got to figure something out.
I work 100% remote and will never go back in office. I might do a 1 day a week hybrid if I can't find anymore remote jobs but that's it. I work in finance and payroll and accounting. Covid proved working n the office was a waste of time.
Payroll gets done at home, accounting gets done and so on.
I get recruiters all the time wanting me to drive to downtown Nashville, TN and deal with road rage and losing 8 hours of family time a week to sit n crap traffic. No thanks.
Payroll gets done at home, accounting gets done and so on.
I get recruiters all the time wanting me to drive to downtown Nashville, TN and deal with road rage and losing 8 hours of family time a week to sit n crap traffic. No thanks.
Some people thrive on WFH. Some people absolutely suck at it.
I agree.
I had a few folks at my last job who couldn't handle the independence, would disappear for hours on end, their work slacked off and they were disciplined. I'm a quiet person by nature and the dead silece of my home office is a much better environment for me than being in an office with a constant murmur of voices and those random collegaues who drop by your desk/cubicle/office to BS about nothing at inoportune times.
It does seem like some companies have embraced it and others are clinging to in-office for dear life, likely in part due to expensive leases. I have a cousin who is a senior hiring manager at a pretty big company in central Kentucky that is fully in-person with a lot of jobs that just need the internet to do them. Their competitors offer full-time remote for those same positions. He says recently they've had a lot of trouble filling openings because their talent pool is required to live within 50 miles of HQ, while their competitors can recruit and hire nationally.
I still view WFH as a positive for workers and allows them to have more flexibility at their jobs/control over their personal lives without feeling like some corporation them. For example, if I had a doctor's appointment or some kind of personal/home emergency in the morning that took 3 hours, I can a) take a half day of PTO b) work 3 hours later that night c) split those 3 hours up and work an hour late/early over 3 days, etc., etc. That's better than being required to be in a certain place for at the same 8 (or more) hours a day for 5 days.
This is the main reason I will never work in an office again unless I absolutely have to in order to keep from starving.
The constant interruptions. It was insane. Even if legit, it's like, I'm trying to get this other work done that you gave me, thanks.
Yep, all of that. And my own damn bathroom 30 ft away. And I could go there without interruption and have 10 minutes of peace.
Remote meetings are like a million times better than in-person meetings.
Almost nothing that happens in our work meetings is applicable to me but required to attend. Some people work at satellite clinics so they have to join via Teams. So I just join via Teams and get work done while I have it on in the background instead of wasting my time sitting in a conference room.
Almost nothing that happens in our work meetings is applicable to me but required to attend. Some people work at satellite clinics so they have to join via Teams. So I just join via Teams and get work done while I have it on in the background instead of wasting my time sitting in a conference room.
Thinking that the majority of the federal government does any work at all whether in person or remote is the real issue
This attitude I believe is what is feeding into the main problems we have. First, go visit some country like Venezuela where the government truly doesn't function and then get back to me on the state of ours.
Second, these Congressional theater efforts are made to make it appear like some rando employee who works in the Department of Agriculture and gets to Telework two days a week is the "swamp" and the reason for the debt, yet the members of congress responsible for making the laws and spending the money are turning a blind eye to Billions of dollars of wasted money on unused office space while never showing up to work themselves.
There hasn't even been an effort during any of this to investigate whether federal employees are doing a good/bad job, if we need reduction/increases in staff, if remote work is providing advantages/disadvantages. Congress is painting the federal employees as the bad guys in all this. Looking at ways to reduce their pay and benefits, provide more micromanaging without demonstrating a need, making a miserable work environment, while continuing to ignore their jobs and pumping out favors to their wealthy donors. And this isn't red or blue, this is ALL of them.
I'm all for better government. But the goal should not be how do I make federal employees miserable so they quit and then I can outsource that work and give billions of dollars to one of my buddies in a federal contract. I would like to see these hearings be about whether or not remote work is effective. If yes, are their ways to utilize it to reduce the Federal budget. If not, then let's remove it so that the people's money is not being wasted. Instead, we don't even see that question getting asked.
Exactly. Most meetings I attend, 90%+ is not relevant to me and what I do. So WFH I can get through emails and such (multitask), but if I was in the office that multitasking would be frowned upon.
What congressional hearings are you referring to?
I’ve not seen anyone arguing the federal government should cut employees so it can outsource the work and continue to spend money. The federal government workforce, and spending, needs to be cut significantly. Just like Musk did when he purchased X cut the bloated wasteful workforce. And recently Zuckerberg did with Meta.
Government spending and red tape needs to be cut. Unions are going to fight those cuts. Voluntary resignations help end around the red tape.
I put a link in the first message when I started the thread. Here is another
Musk purchased Twitter in 2022 for $44 Billion. It is now worth around $9 Billion. They have lost almost 100 million active daily users and are barely hanging on to being one of the top 20 most used social media platforms behind several you have never heard of. That is not a model for success. It also doesn't apply to the federal government because is it not a business. Government's job isn't to grow business or to turn a profit. It is there to serve its citizens and trying to make it look more like corporate America is not the way to meet that goal.
Ironically this article from Vox about Amazon's RTO (Return to Office) plan has not worked out very well. Use the archive.is link because the article is behind the Vox paywall so you can't read it otherwise...
Some highlights, not including the ones Amazon PR provided because they obviously aren't going to provide you with comments that do anything but support their plan...
Not enough space, private spaces, desks, and chairs for everyone
Some workers found there weren't enough desks and had to track down space in a cafeteria or a hallway. Others said there weren't enough chairs in offices and meeting rooms.
Some people got used to speaking openly about private topics while working from home. Now they're surrounded by colleagues in the office, so they are unofficially slipping into meeting rooms and phone rooms to conduct these conversations. That's clogged up meeting spaces and left some managers having private chats in open areas for everyone in the office to hear.
Need a parking pass so you can actually park at work? Good luck with that.
One employee from Amazon's Nashville office said the wait time for a company parking pass is backed up for months
Though they provide free commuter passes? Not sure what that is. Maybe that's a bus pass?
Although another staffer there said the company was providing free commuter passes which they described as "incredibly generous."
Being turned away from the office because there isn't enough parking
Some Amazon employees complained on Slack that when they drove to the office they were turned away because company parking lots were full.
But also can't use Amazon shuttle buses because buses are full
Other staffers said they were denied a spot on Amazon shuttle buses because the vehicles were full
Office theft running rampant, apparently
Several employees at Amazon's Toronto office complained of their personal belongings being repeatedly stolen from desks. One person complained that a keyboard and mouse placed on their assigned desk had gone missing, while another urged employees to keep their possessions in a safe place.
People are just nasty - and Amazon employee lingo is weird
"Deploy personal hygiene protocols BEFORE leaving your launch pad (home). Yes, that means actually using the shower you've been avoiding since WFH began."
"The bathroom stall is not a 'serverless' environment. Flush after use — it's called 'garbage collection' for a reason."
"Footwear is not optional. This isn't a beach sprint retrospective — keep those toes contained in their proper containers (shoes)."
A considerable portion of work is still being done thru video calls with customers and offices located elsewhere
A considerable portion of their in-office work is still being done through video calls with customers who are located elsewhere. Many Amazon colleagues are based in other office locations, so face-to-face meetings still don't happen very often, they added. "Very little team discussion while here."
Some highlights, not including the ones Amazon PR provided because they obviously aren't going to provide you with comments that do anything but support their plan...
Not enough space, private spaces, desks, and chairs for everyone
Some workers found there weren't enough desks and had to track down space in a cafeteria or a hallway. Others said there weren't enough chairs in offices and meeting rooms.
Some people got used to speaking openly about private topics while working from home. Now they're surrounded by colleagues in the office, so they are unofficially slipping into meeting rooms and phone rooms to conduct these conversations. That's clogged up meeting spaces and left some managers having private chats in open areas for everyone in the office to hear.
Need a parking pass so you can actually park at work? Good luck with that.
One employee from Amazon's Nashville office said the wait time for a company parking pass is backed up for months
Though they provide free commuter passes? Not sure what that is. Maybe that's a bus pass?
Although another staffer there said the company was providing free commuter passes which they described as "incredibly generous."
Being turned away from the office because there isn't enough parking
Some Amazon employees complained on Slack that when they drove to the office they were turned away because company parking lots were full.
But also can't use Amazon shuttle buses because buses are full
Other staffers said they were denied a spot on Amazon shuttle buses because the vehicles were full
Office theft running rampant, apparently
Several employees at Amazon's Toronto office complained of their personal belongings being repeatedly stolen from desks. One person complained that a keyboard and mouse placed on their assigned desk had gone missing, while another urged employees to keep their possessions in a safe place.
People are just nasty - and Amazon employee lingo is weird
"Deploy personal hygiene protocols BEFORE leaving your launch pad (home). Yes, that means actually using the shower you've been avoiding since WFH began."
"The bathroom stall is not a 'serverless' environment. Flush after use — it's called 'garbage collection' for a reason."
"Footwear is not optional. This isn't a beach sprint retrospective — keep those toes contained in their proper containers (shoes)."
A considerable portion of work is still being done thru video calls with customers and offices located elsewhere
A considerable portion of their in-office work is still being done through video calls with customers who are located elsewhere. Many Amazon colleagues are based in other office locations, so face-to-face meetings still don't happen very often, they added. "Very little team discussion while here."
I don't mean any disrespect, lot of good thoughts on here, but tbh, this thread is depressing to me. Seems like a whole lot of people are happy sitting by themselves working in isolation. Last thing I think this world needs is lots more people alone staring at a computer screen all day long. Sort of like Napoleon Dynamite on a national or world wide scale.
For me I am sitting home alone staring at computer screen all day. But before Covid, I sat in my office alone staring at computer screen all day. No difference, except now no commute.
Id argue its all on the last few mayors. Things were ok so leadership rested on their laurels. Its like that for many cities that have this trouble. Just look at Louisville.
Speaking of Louisville, and to address another poster's argument about there being too many obstacles to get people to move to downtowns - they sure seem to be doing a fine job of building hotels and short term rentals to accommodate the new distillery driven tourism downtown.
Imagine being the leader of a city that millions of people want to visit your downtown, but you can't convince anyone to actually live there. Embarrassing.
Some people thrive anywhere. Some people suck anywhere. This is all back to my original argument about the problem being the workforce, not where they work.
I’m an introvert. Generally, the less I deal with people the better. Doesn’t mean I want to live the life of a hermit, but I also have zero desire to be constantly around and interacting with others for 8-10 hours a day 4-5 days a week.
