I don't even want to see Senzel's sorry ass in the outfield after the stupid ass gaffe in LF last night too. The dude is a joke. He must have dirt on someone in the organization to continue to get chance after chance.
Reds
- Thread starter mrschwump
- Start date
I tried to remain hopeful and ignorantly think he would at some point turn the corner. Senzel is just not a good baseball player. I've been as guilty of it as anyone trying to hype up his trivial accomplishments whenever he does the slightest thing whether it's a home run, a walk-off or a good play in the field which is a rarity for him. Never hit for power at any level, injury plagued, inconsistent as hell on offense, terrible baserunner and for every slick play in the field there are 2 or 3 to erase it that never cease to amaze how awful they are.
My biggest concern now with Lively back on the IL is the rotation which was lacking depth to begin with and the Reds already needing to move on from Weaver but can't. They may now be forced to call up Connor Phillips when yesterday it seemed like Krall was alluding that it was not going to happen when Jim Day asked him. Said "players in the minors are there for a reason". You could try Brett Kennedy again but you're dealing with another Lively situation for a guy that you just don't know much about having been out of MLB for years. Are they the pitcher that has been consistent for the most part in 2023 having success or going to revert to the numbers on the back of the baseball card indicating their whole career? No one truly knows the answer to that.
This really puts pressure on the 3 of Abbott, Ashcraft & Williamson especially during a time where pitch counts and the possibility of skipped starts would be factoring in. Seems unrealistic with the shape this rotation is in now. Even if you do call up Phillips, he'll be on a pitch count too having pitched all season like the rest of these guys. 4 starts past the 5th for him this year so maybe he will be fine for a few until Greene, Lodolo & Gutierrez are back. Lyon Richardson 1 game with Louisville, it was 3 scoreless innings with 1 hit. Wasn't even considering Gutierrez as a possibility to start but given how the starting rotation has been snake bitten, can't rule anything out in this crazy season.
This really puts pressure on the 3 of Abbott, Ashcraft & Williamson especially during a time where pitch counts and the possibility of skipped starts would be factoring in. Seems unrealistic with the shape this rotation is in now. Even if you do call up Phillips, he'll be on a pitch count too having pitched all season like the rest of these guys. 4 starts past the 5th for him this year so maybe he will be fine for a few until Greene, Lodolo & Gutierrez are back. Lyon Richardson 1 game with Louisville, it was 3 scoreless innings with 1 hit. Wasn't even considering Gutierrez as a possibility to start but given how the starting rotation has been snake bitten, can't rule anything out in this crazy season.
Last edited:
Could have made a debate either way if the Reds should have acquired more pitching at the deadline or stay patient and build for the future keeping in mind that there isn't room for every prospect to make it to Cincinnati especially the infield depth. Veteran players in the minors can still be moved in August. Nothing can be done now unfortunately but going to vent regardless.
I really wanted to see the Reds bring back Lorenzen and Chapman. Chapman went for next to nothing to the Rangers jumping the market early for him. A team can always use bullpen help down the stretch and he is someone that has pitched on contending teams and even won a World Series. You have 4 relievers in the top 5 in most games pitched this year (Diaz, Farmer, Young & Gibaut) and as the Cowboy said during the game on pace for 70 games pitched. Lorenzen went for the Phillies #6 prospect which I'm sure Krall wasn't going to do. Get what you pay for. They filled the void with a lefty reliever in Moll. Still needed an experienced setup man that could have significantly helped this young team. Former Red Matt Wisler is in AAA of the Tigers organization could be moved in 2023 and I don't understand why he is not on an MLB team now when his past 2 seasons in Tampa Bay a combined 2.21 ERA & 0.968 WHIP over 66 games.
Even if the Reds did not want to spend at the deadline for starting pitching and how the last of the White Sox targets Dylan Cease imploded for 7 runs vs Texas, Rodriguez vetoed his trade and an opt out after the year that could have screwed Cincinnati. A veteran pitcher like Trevor Williams remained on the bottom feeder Nationals and would give the production expected out of a 4-5 starter especially one that could have been shifted to the pen when the injured pitchers return. Can't imagine he would have cost near what Lorenzen did. He's no All-Star by any stretch of the imagination but a serviceable starter that would have been an innings eater. The void we all wish Cincinnati had filled over the offseason with a better plan than Overton & Cessa. At this point I would take a Dontrelle Willis/Matt Harvey reclamation project for Derek Johnson to work with for a few starts until this team starts to get healthy.
I really wanted to see the Reds bring back Lorenzen and Chapman. Chapman went for next to nothing to the Rangers jumping the market early for him. A team can always use bullpen help down the stretch and he is someone that has pitched on contending teams and even won a World Series. You have 4 relievers in the top 5 in most games pitched this year (Diaz, Farmer, Young & Gibaut) and as the Cowboy said during the game on pace for 70 games pitched. Lorenzen went for the Phillies #6 prospect which I'm sure Krall wasn't going to do. Get what you pay for. They filled the void with a lefty reliever in Moll. Still needed an experienced setup man that could have significantly helped this young team. Former Red Matt Wisler is in AAA of the Tigers organization could be moved in 2023 and I don't understand why he is not on an MLB team now when his past 2 seasons in Tampa Bay a combined 2.21 ERA & 0.968 WHIP over 66 games.
Even if the Reds did not want to spend at the deadline for starting pitching and how the last of the White Sox targets Dylan Cease imploded for 7 runs vs Texas, Rodriguez vetoed his trade and an opt out after the year that could have screwed Cincinnati. A veteran pitcher like Trevor Williams remained on the bottom feeder Nationals and would give the production expected out of a 4-5 starter especially one that could have been shifted to the pen when the injured pitchers return. Can't imagine he would have cost near what Lorenzen did. He's no All-Star by any stretch of the imagination but a serviceable starter that would have been an innings eater. The void we all wish Cincinnati had filled over the offseason with a better plan than Overton & Cessa. At this point I would take a Dontrelle Willis/Matt Harvey reclamation project for Derek Johnson to work with for a few starts until this team starts to get healthy.
Last edited:
Bull Pen definitely starting to show fatigue. Starters not doing their thing either. They had been solid for several weeks, even in most of the losses that were tight, but August rolls around and the wheels fall off. I have to think fatigue is setting in. Only one off day since July 13 and no off day upcoming until the 10th. that will be like a stretch of 27 days with only one off day and that included a trip to LA. hopefully they can get out of Chicago with a good performance tonight and have a good weekend against the Nationals. They're holding onto their lead, but letting Chicago into the Fray now making it a three team race instead of two.
Outside of his injuries, the Reds trying him at every position but his natural one, had to stunt his professional development somewhat. We wonder why it takes guys so long to progress through the system, it's partly because they keep moving guys around and forcing them to learn new positions. Some guys can take to that better than others, but sometimes, they need to just stick with one position and let them master it.
Isn't CES a natural 3B, why not put him there?
I have to think the lackadaisical approach to the deadline, or not wanting to give up certain prospects is an indication that the Front Office knows that this season has been gravy. NOBODY expected them to be anywhere near the position they are in today. They were planning for 2024 and beyond, so this year was kinda like a "Holy Crap we're contending" moment and they weren't prepared or intending to be making much in the way of trade offers so moving certain prospects they were factoring into the long term plans gave them cold feet. I feel like the plan all along was to get through 2023, then when they unload the three big contracts weighing them down, they can make a bigger offseason splash. Maybe a guy like Lorenzen will be available in the FA market in the offseason.
All of this is magnified by several starting pitchers who seem to be injury prone.
Add to this, Senzel apparently demanded a trade even tho he has zero trade value. So now they're struggling with pitching rotation and have a selfish player that stands a chance of disrupting what they've built. Senzel needs to go.....now!!
Senzel did have 3 years of development in the Reds minor league system and that is on top of coming out the NCAA which he should not have needed near as long to adjust. Took McLain about that long too out of NCAA and he did not exactly set the minors on fire until this season in Louisville. Injuries partly to blame in the way of Nick's development but at this point you either have it or you don't. McLain has shown it but never clicked for Senzel. Would have to think if the Reds thought Senzel could have handled the load of a full season, without his injury history he would have stayed put in the infield. At the time the Reds still had Suarez at 3B and the one thing Senzel does offer is his versatility in the field but just is not a very good player. Senzel is a lost cause, needs to be in another organization like Barrero and don't need him blocking anyone from EDLC, Steer, CES or Marte from getting valuable experience at 3B who are the Reds future.
Last edited:
It does seem like that is truly what the Reds front office approach is thinking about 2024 or 2025 once all of the money is off the books from Votto/Griffey/Moose and no one in their right mind expected the Reds to be in 1st place on August 3rd. Krall has sent mixed messages to the media from earlier in June saying we're buyers, have some payroll to work with. Literally his words and then it became the market asking price was too steep. I get that 100%, fans like us at home knew that too and wouldn't want to overpay for a rental. No problem with that approach. At the same time, building for the future would also mean giving someone like Connor Phillips a shot during these struggles since trades weren't made for even lower-level moves for pitchers like Trevor Williams who is wasted on the Nats 2nd to last place in the NL.
The tier of starting pitching that did not get moved who would not have necessarily broke the bank or commanded a top 10 prospect like Trevor Williams which would have stopped the bleeding giving an extra arm in the wake of all of these injuries. Still allowed for the young starters to get the rest required for rookies to not risk arm injuries. At this point, you have 3 starting pitchers as of today and whatever Luke Weaver gets you which is in the air from start to start. Going to be that way for another 2 1/2 weeks until Greene is eligible to come off the 60-day IL unless they bite the bullet calling up Phillips which I'm all for.
Reds plan to buy at the trade deadline, says GM Nick Krall: 'I think we want to do whatever we can'
The upstarts from Cincy might play a surprising role leading up to the trade deadline
www.cbssports.com
Reds GM Nick Krall stresses ‘building this for sustainability’ as trade deadline nears
The Reds are still in the playoff hunt. They still need pitching, both in the rotation and in the bullpen.
theathletic.com
Last edited:
3 internal options to replace injured Reds starter Ben Lively
The Cincinnati Reds now have another hole in their starting rotation. With Ben Lively on the IL, who might take his place?
blogredmachine.com
Figure Kennedy would be one they turn too like they did vs Washington if they try to play it safe. Pitched fair until he ran out of gas giving up 4 runs. Stoudt has not shown much in his brief appearances whether it was starting or the game when Sims had to bail him out vs Arizona. Giving Phillips a chance now and further set him up to join in 2024 with experience this year is what I would like to see.
Last edited:
I think Phillips next start would be Sunday in Louisville. Just so happens to be TBD when Lively would have pitched. A start vs a struggling Nationals team is a good time to make your MLB Debut.
3 internal options to replace injured Reds starter Ben Lively
The Cincinnati Reds now have another hole in their starting rotation. With Ben Lively on the IL, who might take his place?
Figure Kennedy would be one they turn too like they did vs Washington if they try to play it safe. Pitched fair until he ran out of gas giving up 4 runs. Stoudt has not shown much in his brief appearances whether it was starting or the game when Sims had to bail him vs Arizona. Giving Phillips a chance now and further set him up to join in 2024 with experience this year is what I would like to see.
…or when your catcher is pitching at all.
You had to figure our 5th or 6th starter wouldn't fare much better. Not sure what Bell was watching. Tossed again! 🤣
Reds end the road trip on a 3-game losing streak. Relief pitching gave up a costly run in the 8th but still a bounce back game for the pen. Back home for 6 outside the central division.
It did not take McClain that long out of the NCAA. He was drafted in 2021. He progressed rather quickly with only one full year in the minor leagues. Senzel was 24 before he got called up. McClain turns 24 on Sunday. He is arguably the most consistent player on the team this year. I think Senzel will be packaged with somebody in the off season, he's ready to skip town and the Reds just need to part ways with him and some of the others they brought in as stop gaps to get through what they thought was going to be a crappy season. (Newman, Casili, Weaver, Lively, primarily) Barrero needs to move along as well. They're going to have some money to spend after this season, so they need to use some of it to lock in some guys. Get a quality starter or two through FA or through a trade for India. As for keepers, I think Benson has proven over the last couple of months he belongs. I think Fraley is a keeper, his OF defense is probably the best of the lot out there so far. I'm mixed on Friedl, I think he's done well enough that he has some trade value and might be a good piece to move for rotation help, though I'm fine with him sticking around too. He's a gamer.
I know it’s possible these guys will hit sophomore slumps, but I think you have to lock up DelaCruz, Strand, and McClain and Abbott to go with Greene. Then fill in around them with whatever money you have left. I’m not sold on Diaz being able to do this for multiple years.
In baseball there's no real rush. All these rookies are pre-arbitration at this point. Even when they enter arbitration they are still under team control. No need to make the same mistake they made with Votto at this stage. The sad part of what's hopefully the new Reds system, is they develop or trade them and when they get to free agency they leave so they can promote newly developed players. It's a small market plan that unfortunately goes thru lots of players but keeps the team financially solvent in order to make deals to get them over the top in the contention years. Fans that consider this year a contention year were disappointed they didn't make a deal before the trade deadline.
Last edited:
I would add Steer to the mix of those you lock in. As for Diaz, I think he could do this for the 3-4 years the Reds try and make a run for a WS, but it would require them designating a second closer. This nonsense of trotting him out there 4 days in a row or three out of 5 days is wearing on him. They need somebody to put out there every third save attempt. If one good thing came out of these shellackings in Chicago it's that Diaz got an extended rest.
There was a 44-game total difference between the time Senzel & McLain made their debut hence the 'about that long' part in my post. Both in their age 24 season. If you think I am somehow making the comparison to say McLain isn't getting the job done, then you took my post the wrong way. That was not the direction I was taking it in. McLain also battled through injuries of his own but did not stop him and like I said above, "McLain has shown it but never clicked for Senzel." No one in their right mind would think I was trying to compare their level of production against one another when McLain was a borderline All-Star and quite possibly going to win the NL Rookie of the Year at this pace.
I used the comparison for 2 1st Round NCAA infielders the Reds have drafted in the past decade that are still on this team to your point that Senzel had his development stunted because he is not playing 3B which I do not agree with this take. Hell even McLain spent an entire year at UCLA in the outfield. Spencer Steer part-time LF in his rookie year. These days position versatility is a part of the game with even some of the biggest stars like Jeff McNeil, Kris Bryant, Trevor Story, Gleyber Torres so forth all playing multiple positions than their natural one. Reds doing it now with Carlos Jorge & Rece Hinds shifting from the infield to the outfield. As far as trading Senzel, Reds could just as easy non-tender him to move on from deadweight instead of trying to trade him. He has 2 more years of team control but the only thing he offers is position versatility.
Last edited:
I agree with this. Rays & Mariners rushed to sign Wander Franco & Julio Rodriguez in their 1st season. Rodriguez still young but definitely not matching his rookie season and I think it is fair to say the Rays expected a little more than what Franco has produced so far. They're winning but could get the level of production on the open market he is giving much cheaper. I guess still early for him too but just for comparison's sake not always best to rush these deals when you have years of team control left.
I have never seen a pro athlete totally collapse the way Senzel did a couple of nights ago. And I go back to the days of Dick "Dr Strangglove" Stuart. Senzel offers zero in a trade. Best bet would be to send him to AAA, promote Marte and get on with building.
Cincinnati needs reliable setup men. Next in line to pick up saves and bridge the gap to the closer. Need a couple that can setup Diaz and give him the rest while the setup reliever can carry the load at other times. Like the Brewers had with Devin Williams, Josh Hader & Will Smith before, the Yankees with Chapman, Zach Britton & Adam Ottavino once and the Royals had Greg Holland, Wade Davis, Ryan Madson & Kelvin Herrera that shut teams down in the 2015 World Series season. Padres just went out to get the Royals closer to setup Josh Hader. Not a threat to the closer's role but will give Hader some rest down the stretch. It's why the Reds should have jumped the market for Chapman like Texas did giving up next to nothing for him. 2 prospects, only one ranked inside of the team's Top 50. Very good trade for the Rangers. As far as those not sure Diaz is the answer, look at the workload he has handled this year with the 2nd most saves in all of MLB with 32, had an MLB best 27 consecutive saves converted, 6th lowest ERA 2.09 among closers, not sure how much more can be expected of him. Ideally get him more rest but you need a closer like him. In just his 2nd season, progressing along just fine.
Last edited:
And of course Bell has Senzel in the lineup tonight and his .230 BA batting second. Just unbelievable. Senzel must have video AND audio on Bell.
So much for a 'reduced role' when he wasn't playing hardly at all and post-trade deadline started 3 of the last 4 games. Unbelievable. Not the time to be pandering to him half a game back now.
www.mlb.com
After trade doesn't materialize, Senzel dealing with reduced role
CHICAGO -- Not only did the Reds wind up standing pat for adding rotation help before Tuesday's Trade Deadline, they remained status-quo in not moving anybody off of their big league roster. Utility player Nick Senzel was a potential trade chip for Cincinnati, but he remained with the club. With
www.mlb.com
Senzel whines to the media about PT, gets the PT and looks like an original member of the Bad News Bears so Bell rewards him with more PT. SMH.So much for a 'reduced role' when he wasn't playing hardly at all and post-trade deadline started 3 of the last 4 games. Unbelievable. Not the time to be pandering to him half a game back now.
After trade doesn't materialize, Senzel dealing with reduced role
CHICAGO -- Not only did the Reds wind up standing pat for adding rotation help before Tuesday's Trade Deadline, they remained status-quo in not moving anybody off of their big league roster. Utility player Nick Senzel was a potential trade chip for Cincinnati, but he remained with the club. With
Senzel and Fairchild being in the lineup makes me not want to watch the Reds. I can't believe David Bell gets paid money to make decisions like this, and then gets extended. Thank God I have dinner plans so I do not have to watch those 2 Single A level ballplayers try to hit and catch a ball tonight. It really is embarrassing.
It's pathetic. Starting 3 of 4 games since he cried and batting him 2nd tonight? In what rational world would any manager bat Senzel 2nd in the order in addition to Newman & Fairchild in there again tonight. 1/3 of your lineup are reserves. Guess we're rewarding the birthday boy Newman with a start on his day.
Last edited:
Designating a 'second closer' sounds like the old adage, if you have 2 Quarterbacks, you have none. Reds just need to beef up the bullpen before him in these high leverage situations where the Reds are tied but don't have a lead yet. Diaz should remain our primary closer and no one needs to be cutting into his save situations. He'll leave in a New York minute if he won't already at the end of his contract or traded one. He's not the only one with a ridiculous workload. Gibaut, Farmer & Young all 4 in the top 5 most games pitched. At this point in the season, you're not going to reverse fatigue and can't afford to give anyone a week off. Antone coming back is going to help take some of that load off and has proven to handle tough situations in any role out of the bullpen. Give him a couple games and I have high hopes for Tejay's return to this Reds team.
I wish fans would forget the idea anyone wants to trade for our scraps and think the Reds will somehow get a quality player in return. You can stack shit all day long and will just find yourself getting deeper. The reasons you don't want a player are the same reasons other teams won't trade for them. Best thing the Reds can do is cut dead weight at the end of the season which would also include declining the option on Joey Votto. At this point the Reds are committed to rebuilding from within and found themselves just so happening to be contending in August. May as well let everyone get healthy and the young pitchers get an opportunity to pitch for Cincinnati next season instead of throwing it all the way for someone who will walk at the end of their contract in a year or two then you're without the prospects too.
Similar threads
