Quit the whining please!

[The_Answer1313]

Lord You are exhausting... when you benefit being specific - you try to be specific - when it doesn't you go for generalities... lol. You said previously - refs were not perfect - but overall a non-factor - certainly not in this game. Correct? Second - I am not talking about a general home field advantage - it's Kansas where self is 200-9. So the extent is great. Their are no extenuating circumstances that give them an advantage there travel and crap... And again - the amount of a role the refs played in this game was a greater than 2 to 1 role in FTA's - again the extent is great. And the Briscoe argument... I sat and told my kids - we'll get a couple of make up calls here in the OT when it doesn't matter - and it will be on Briscoe who was struggling after his first 4 attempts. sooo... No - it's not rocket science to be sure. Kansas received 25 more free looks and our 4 bigs were fouled out. Those are stubborn facts, even supported statistically. Silly to throw those facts out to support hypothetical fairness. UK still had opportunities missed. Briscoe make FT's, 3's were not falling, Ulis fatigued at end, but to play 8 on 5 is tough for any team. To ignore that just discredits the point. No I do not at all think it's always that way... but in this instance... the facts are the facts. I'd love to see KU face those circumstances and come out in support of your hypothetical, pleased to shoot 25 less FT's and minus 4 bigs. LOL.

I never said it was a non factor. Again I'm talking about the extent to which is was a factor or not.

I'm not sure the point of posting Kansas home field advantage. Kansas is dominant at home because they have been a great basketball team. Just like we are dominate at Rupp. Just like Duke is dominate at Cameron. All great teams are gonna have great records at home. Do you feel it's different at Kansas than it is say at Rupp or at Duke?

Oh ok.....so that's what happened in OT? Briscoe got "make up" calls. Briscoe wasn't more aggressive. We just got make up calls.

You bring up the 25 more free looks and attribute that to the refs, I attribute that to the players. Why can't u just leave it at that.

 

[struggler]

I never said it was a non factor. Again I'm talking about the extent to which is was a factor or not.

I'm not sure the point of posting Kansas home field advantage. Kansas is dominant at home because they have been a great basketball team. Just like we are dominate at Rupp. Just like Duke is dominate at Cameron. All great teams are gonna have great records at home. Do you feel it's different at Kansas than it is say at Rupp or at Duke?

Oh ok.....so that's what happened in OT? Briscoe got "make up" calls. Briscoe wasn't more aggressive. We just got make up calls.

You bring up the 25 more free looks and attribute that to the refs, I attribute that to the players. Why can't u just leave it at that.

Players don't call the fouls - the refs do... therefore you attribute them to the person calling them or not calling them in kansas' case

 

[The_Answer1313]

Did you see the stats for the Kansas guys? It shows they foul and foul out but they didn't on Saturday night? Numbers don't mean anything they can be twisted. Ref's are human and they do make mistakes but a one sided called game isn't a mistake.

During the season KU ranks 171st in fouling. We rank 241st. They don't nearly have the problem fouling that we do.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Players don't call the fouls - the refs do... therefore you attribute them to the person calling them or not calling them in kansas' case

So anytime there's a foul it's not because of the player but rather because the ref decides to call it?

ok lol

 

[struggler]

So anytime there's a foul it's not because of the player but rather because the ref decides to call it?

ok lol

I give up/gave up... it's not all or nothing... you clearly grasp stats, but miss the nuances of officiating and how it can or cannot influence a game. In this case it's not even nuances.. more than double, and ignores that 4 players fouled out. Live in Stat world and keep telling yourself you are the only one with an enlightened opinion. Ignore everything else about this game in particular and in general. Naive is waiting at your front door to go on a double date with Denial and Tunnel Vision, to the imaginary data warehouse where flawed humanity and bias are not allowed to enter.

Per the NCAA - Kansas commits and avg of 18.7 fouls per game - UK 20.9... 2.2 difference - a far cry from the 13 total difference called

 

[The_Answer1313]

I give up/gave up... it's not all or nothing... you clearly grasp stats, but miss the nuances of officiating and how it can or cannot influence a game. In this case it's not even nuances.. more than double, and ignores that 4 players fouled out. Live in Stat world and keep telling yourself you are the only one with an enlightened opinion. Ignore everything else about this game in particular and in general. Naive is waiting at your front door to go on a double date with Denial and Tunnel Vision, to the imaginary data warehouse where flawed humanity and bias are not allowed to enter.

Per the NCAA - Kansas commits and avg of 18.7 fouls per game - UK 20.9... 2.2 difference - a far cry from the 13 total difference called

No one is ignoring the disparity. Just a disagreement in how that disparity occurred.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

Struggler, your eyes know what you saw. ... don't let the clown try and convince you otherwise

 

[The_Answer1313]

Struggler, your eyes know what you saw. ... don't let the clown try and convince you otherwise

Perception isn't always reality.

When your a fan of a specific team, your always gonna be bias towards that team. What you "saw".

All fanbases do this tho.

 

[struggler]

Perception isn't always reality.

When your a fan of a specific team, your always gonna be bias towards that team. What you "saw".

All fanbases do this tho.

Lol... You just can't let someone else have the last word... Or be right... So funny. Now we cannot discern a Reffing disparity..
Nor can we analyze stats.. Now we can also not believe our own eyes. How oh how have these national commentators made it this long without the input of "The Answer". Pity the one who contradicts him...

 

[The_Answer1313]

Lol your entitled to believe whatever it is your wanting to believe.

Just as I am.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

Twisting stats to mean what you want it to doesnt make you intelligent.... it makes you a dishonest azz hat.

 

[The_Answer1313]

No one twisted stats here. They are what they are.

 

[struggler]

Lol your entitled to believe whatever it is your wanting to believe.

Just as I am.

I'll go with reality then... Thanks for the permission.

 

[The_Answer1313]

I'll go with the truth.

 

[struggler]

I'll go with the truth.

47-22 disparity...my reality... The truth

 

[The_Answer1313]

47-22 disparity...my reality... The truth

I'll be sure to point that out next time UK has a 25 free throw disparity.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

I'll be sure to point that out next time UK has a 25 free throw disparity.

You are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, you keep pointing out that we foul too much and on the other hand we get these huge disparities just like KU and other elite teams.

 

[struggler]

I'll be sure to point that out next time UK has a 25 free throw disparity.

Please do... I'm certain it will not happen vs Kansas at the phog. Unless there is a gross mismatch this type of disparity is obvious... It is not common. Same disparity when Kansas got beat in West Virginia. My exhaustive research is incomplete but I have yet to run across a post where Kansas felt like they were dealt a fair hand there.. So.. Not just UK fans...

 

[The_Answer1313]

You are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, you keep pointing out that we foul too much and on the other hand we get these huge disparities just like KU and other elite teams.

it goes way back to the first page.

I don't believe a huge disparity means refs are favoring a team. I believe it's more based on style of play and the players on each of the teams.

However, if people want to state the disparity and say hey look we took 25 fewer free throws, this is unfair all the while ignoring when we have that same disparity, then they aren't being consistent with their own logic.

So if UK does have a game like this in the future (and I'm certain they will because it happens every year)...........then I would say that hey UK did a great job not fouling and/or getting to the line.

My whole point of all this has been that if u have a certain opinion on something, you have to be consistent about it even when it goes to the benefit of your team.

Also we get those huge disparities not because we are an elite team but rather because of our style of play........especially since Cal has gotten here.

When you look at the list of teams that lead in Free Throw Rate......it's not just big name teams. In fact, it's sorta the opposite.

The fact that u can take the list and look at the following year and you can see a correlation is all I have to see to know that this skill is based way more on the players u have vs the actual refs.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

it goes way back to the first page.

I don't believe a huge disparity means refs are favoring a team. I believe it's more based on style of play and the players on each of the teams.

However, if people want to state the disparity and say hey look we took 25 fewer free throws, this is unfair all the while ignoring when we have that same disparity, then they aren't being consistent with their own logic.

So if UK does have a game like this in the future (and I'm certain they will because it happens every year)...........then I would say that hey UK did a great job not fouling and/or getting to the line.

My whole point of all this has been that if u have a certain opinion on something, you have to be consistent about it even when it goes to the benefit of your team.

There is nothing to be consistent about with ONE game though. KU got a blatantly kind whistle. One doesn't need to prove that it was due to the refs hating UK or that they were bought off or anything like that. It's apparent to most people with eyes. It is not necessary to break open the stat books and get eyestrain analyzing years of data to know what we saw in this ONE game.

 

[struggler]

it goes way back to the first page.

I don't believe a huge disparity means refs are favoring a team. I believe it's more based on style of play and the players on each of the teams.

However, if people want to state the disparity and say hey look we took 25 fewer free throws, this is unfair all the while ignoring when we have that same disparity, then they aren't being consistent with their own logic.

So if UK does have a game like this in the future (and I'm certain they will because it happens every year)...........then I would say that hey UK did a great job not fouling and/or getting to the line.

My whole point of all this has been that if u have a certain opinion on something, you have to be consistent about it even when it goes to the benefit of your team.

Exhausting... Illogical... Certainly not consistent. No one but you are trying to globalize this and include all UK games. Those huge mismatch games produce such disparity. This thread was is about one game... The Kansas game... What did and didn't get called there. When it suits to generalize you generalize. When it suits to be specific you're specific. Conversation is about one game...

 

[The_Answer1313]

There is nothing to be consistent about with ONE game though. KU got a blatantly kind whistle. One doesn't need to prove that it was due to the refs hating UK or that they were bought off or anything like that. It's apparent to most people with eyes. It is not necessary to break open the stat books and get eyestrain analyzing years of data to know what we saw in this ONE game.

It's louder this game because there was such a huge disparity. But we see it all the time on this board (or well any board for that matter for any teams fans). Close game.........free throw disparity........we are on the short end .........refs are favoring. We see it all the time.

Honestly what I think happened Saturday night was that the refs didn't favor one team but called the game extremely tightly.....especially in the second half of the game. And I think our guys couldn't adapt. Do I think some of the fouls called on us were picky? Hell yeah. I think they called this game extremely tight especially later on. What you saw in the disparity was KU taking full advantage of that. They drove it more in the second half than they did in the first. We did not.

There is zero doubt in my mind if we remained aggressive, we get those calls as well. When we did drive, good things happened.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Exhausting... Illogical... Certainly not consistent. No one but you are trying to globalize this and include all UK games. Those huge mismatch games produce such disparity. This thread was is about one game... The Kansas game... What did and didn't get called there. When it suits to generalize you generalize. When it suits to be specific you're specific. Conversation is about one game...

Yeah but these disparities don't just happen in huge mismatches. I mean just look at the Vandy game. 25-6. A big disparity. I don't think anyone would argue that Vandy is even better than us much less a huge mismatch.
But Vandy gets to the line. They have all season long. We foul. All season long. So that became predictable.

 

[struggler]

Yeah but these disparities don't just happen in huge mismatches. I mean just look at the Vandy game. 25-6. A big disparity. I don't think anyone would argue that Vandy is even better than us much less a huge mismatch.
But Vandy gets to the line. They have all season long. We foul. All season long. So that became predictable.

Roooock chaaalk Jaaaay Haaaawk. Just say it. Predictable? As in the refs played to our reputation of fouling? Lol... But you just said it was called fair but tight... Yet now predictable. Hmmmmm. Now I think youre trying to convince youself again of your logic, cause it's lost on everyone else. No one here is going to agree that it was fairly called and uk's lack of aggression caused it. No. One. Hell even in the triangle and 2 the hand checking alone... Anyway. Good luck to ur jayhawks. Selden is real but without that favorable... Er I mean tight... whistle... Idk.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

if you guys were paying attention, he outed himself a little ways back.

 

[struggler]

if you guys were paying attention, he outed himself a little ways back.

I know... Was just fun to back him into a corner because he so wants the last word and to be thought right...

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

It's louder this game because there was such a huge disparity. But we see it all the time on this board (or well any board for that matter for any teams fans). Close game.........free throw disparity........we are on the short end .........refs are favoring. We see it all the time.

Honestly what I think happened Saturday night was that the refs didn't favor one team but called the game extremely tightly.....especially in the second half of the game. And I think our guys couldn't adapt. Do I think some of the fouls called on us were picky? Hell yeah. I think they called this game extremely tight especially later on. What you saw in the disparity was KU taking full advantage of that. They drove it more in the second half than they did in the first. We did not.

There is zero doubt in my mind if we remained aggressive, we get those calls as well. When we did drive, good things happened.

No, it was not extremely tight. First half we had 9 fouls, they had 11. That's an average game. Second half plus overtime they had 9 fouls. Again an average game. We had 24 fouls in the second half plus overtime. So, 9, 11, 9, 24. You can believe that was fair all you want.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Roooock chaaalk Jaaaay Haaaawk. Just say it. Predictable? As in the refs played to our reputation of fouling? Lol... But you just said it was called fair but tight... Yet now predictable. Hmmmmm. Now I think youre trying to convince youself again of your logic, cause it's lost on everyone else. No one here is going to agree that it was fairly called and uk's lack of aggression caused it. No. One. Hell even in the triangle and 2 the hand checking alone... Anyway. Good luck to ur jayhawks. Selden is real but without that favorable... Er I mean tight... whistle... Idk.

You keep saying that no one is going to agree with me. I don't really care. That wasn't the point of this. Whether you or anyone wants to believe the refs gave KU the game, your entitled to your opinion. It's funny how the first post you slam me saying why can't people have an opinion yet you've spent pages upon pages trying to get me to change mine.

What has gotten lost in all of this is the point of my original post.

There's a bias. All fans have this with there team. If you subscribe to a theory that a huge disparity means the refs were favoring other teams at least be consistent. Your point was well that only happens in huge mismatches........well no it doesn't. There are countless examples where we have played teams without a big mismatch and have had a disparity in our favor.

And I know what your saying..........well in this one particular game the refs favored KU. So it doesn't matter about other games. It doesn't matter UK has a tendency to foul because we are talking about this one game.

KU went to the line that many times for several reasons:
1) As the other poster pointed out, the fouls were about even. They took 24 of 47 free throws from the point when Willis fouled out. As our bench got thinner and thinner the fouls picked up. When you have to play guys that struggle on D, your gonna foul more often.
2) The game went into OT. More minutes the more likihood increased free throws. Heck they only had 31 in regulation. Even factoring the 7 or so after Willis fouled out before OT. Taking 31 in a regulation game isn't out of the norm.
3) They drove more. They put themselves in position to be fouled.

Now I for one don't believe that means the refs are favoring but all I'm saying is to the people that do feel that way, call it both sides.

If you can't do that and you can't see the bias in that, I don't know what to say.

Just last season
40-22
37-20
33-11
32-12
32-19
31-13
30-8
29-2
28-14
27-17
23-5
21-10
18-7
17-4

Not all of those games I would classify as "huge mismatches". If anything the huge mismatches result in less free throws than a close game as some of the close games will result in fouling at the end of games. And some of that happened in the Kansas game too. 8 of the 16 free throws in OT was fouling at the end to try and come back.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Roooock chaaalk Jaaaay Haaaawk. Just say it. Predictable? As in the refs played to our reputation of fouling? Lol... But you just said it was called fair but tight... Yet now predictable. Hmmmmm. Now I think youre trying to convince youself again of your logic, cause it's lost on everyone else. No one here is going to agree that it was fairly called and uk's lack of aggression caused it. No. One. Hell even in the triangle and 2 the hand checking alone... Anyway. Good luck to ur jayhawks. Selden is real but without that favorable... Er I mean tight... whistle... Idk.

Yes I'm sure the refs sit there before games, log into stat sites and say hmm u know what UK fouls alot this year so let's call more fouls on them. We can justify it because the numbers say they foul.

You really believe that?

Your complaining about hand checking.......in the grand overall scheme of things how often are fouls called for that? What your talking about is a small part of the overall things that get called for fouls. Over the back on a rebound? How often do you see it in a game? Maybe a handful of times. Some games not at all. Fouling a jump shooter? Maybe a couple of times and every time it happens it's only because they were trying to play D too tightly and didn't mean to foul. The old adage never foul a jump shooter.

The majority of fouls are called at the rim, on drives. Not sure how that is even debatable. And if that's the case, it only makes sense that teams that drive the ball have a greater chance at being fouled compared to a jump shooter.

I'm not sure how anyone could watch the 2nd half and conclude that our offense was the same as it was in the first half. Ulis got the lane in the first half, he didn't in the second. We took more jump shots in the second half than we did in the first half. Self said beat me with someone besides Ulis and Murray. Guys like Willis and Hawkins had good open looks from 3 but they just didn't go down.

But this is turning into two separate arugments
1) why didn't we get fouled as much
2) why we did foul them too much

TBH we did take 22 free throws. As Silents pointed out. That's not out of the norm. The only number that was out of the norm was the 47 on that side of the ball. So I'm not sure why we are even talking about hand checking.

 

[UKEE]

Old saying:

"Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

 

[struggler]

Yes I'm sure the refs sit there before games, log into stat sites and say hmm u know what UK fouls alot this year so let's call more fouls on them. We can justify it because the numbers say they foul.

You really believe that?

Your complaining about hand checking.......in the grand overall scheme of things how often are fouls called for that? What your talking about is a small part of the overall things that get called for fouls. Over the back on a rebound? How often do you see it in a game? Maybe a handful of times. Some games not at all. Fouling a jump shooter? Maybe a couple of times and every time it happens it's only because they were trying to play D too tightly and didn't mean to foul. The old adage never foul a jump shooter.

The majority of fouls are called at the rim, on drives. Not sure how that is even debatable. And if that's the case, it only makes sense that teams that drive the ball have a greater chance at being fouled compared to a jump shooter.

I'm not sure how anyone could watch the 2nd half and conclude that our offense was the same as it was in the first half. Ulis got the lane in the first half, he didn't in the second. We took more jump shots in the second half than we did in the first half. Self said beat me with someone besides Ulis and Murray. Guys like Willis and Hawkins had good open looks from 3 but they just didn't go down.

But this is turning into two separate arugments
1) why didn't we get fouled as much
2) why we did foul them too much

TBH we did take 22 free throws. As Silents pointed out. That's not out of the norm. The only number that was out of the norm was the 47 on that side of the ball. So I'm not sure why we are even talking about hand checking.

You're right. After post after post after post... Twisted arguments and contradictions, labored justifications, selective anaylitics and of course dismissing whole portions of the game...you've convinced me you're right.
Roooock chaaaslk jaaaaay Haaaawk.

 

[The_Answer1313]

lol not really here to convince you or others. As I've said you entitled to your opinion.

Just didn't understand when the OP got blasted for having one that differs from the norm. Especially when.......they were right.

 

[struggler]

lol not really here to convince you or others. As I've said you entitled to your opinion.

Just didn't understand when the OP got blasted for having one that differs from the norm. Especially when.......they were right.

You are right.. Clearly and always... Right right right... I submit... You are right. Clearly fact based. Unbiased. Please. You are right. Roooock chaaalk Jaaaay Haaaawk

 

[The_Answer1313]

lmao ok dude.

 

[CharlieT71059]

We were fouloing the crap out of them. Experienced college players learn how to draw the foul

 

[The_Answer1313]

We were fouloing the crap out of them. Experienced college players learn how to draw the foul

Exactly

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

We were fouloing the crap out of them. Experienced college players learn how to draw the foul

Kansas didnt change their offense in the 2nd half...(they drove the ball in the first half too). UK didnt change their defense in the second half...... So for their to be that massive of a difference in the first and second half calling the game.. Literally means that either the refs called the game wrong in one half or the other.

 

[struggler]

Exactly

Exactly... That's why experienced players like Kaminsky and Dekker in the final last year used that experience to get the the line and freshman Grayson Allen didn't... Oh wait... check that. Let's just go with exactly.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Exactly... That's why experienced players like Kaminsky and Dekker in the final last year used that experience to get the the line and freshman Grayson Allen didn't... Oh wait... check that. Let's just go with exactly.

I was referring to the part about us fouling the crap out of them. We did.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

I was referring to the part about us fouling the crap out of them. We did.

I was hoping you would respond to the numbers I posted. That being the 9,11,9,24 foul totals. 3 of the four halves (our first, second, and their first and second) saw normal totals. The lone exception is our second half which saw 24 fouls. And you still say it was fairly called?