POLL: Is there a God ??

[mcnicKY91]

Does evil have to exist or even be a thing ?? God, being all powerful, could’ve created a world without any evil. Such a world would not eliminate free will. People could still have the free will to choose among good things, much like being able to make the always fun choices at Baskin-Robbin’s. What a world that would be … some might say heaven on earth.

If we were programmed to only do good, inherently free will is gone.

Most importantly, love for each other would not be genuine. It would be robotic.

If we are pre-programmed to only do what is "good", then our actions toward each other are not genuine. It's fraudulent.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Does evil have to exist or even be a thing ?? God, being all powerful, could’ve created a world without any evil. Such a world would not eliminate free will. People could still have the free will to choose among good things, much like being able to make the always fun choices at Baskin-Robbin’s. What a world that would be … some might say heaven on earth.

He did not have to create people at all or with free choice to reject God and live selfishly. True. And?

 

[megablue]

He did not have to create people at all or with free choice to reject God and live selfishly. True. And?

Of course. You are right. This does not have to be the only way the world could exist or have to be. But … it is what it is … as they say.

 

[megablue]

If we were programmed to only do good, inherently free will is gone.

Most importantly, love for each other would not be genuine. It would be robotic.

If we are pre-programmed to only do what is "good", then our actions toward each other are not genuine. It's fraudulent.

I understand your argument, of course, but the world did not HAVE to be that way. For God, the ways to create a world and all that’s in it, should be an infinite number. That is how I see it.

I am not trying to make an argument for/against the existence of God, only sharing thoughts I’ve had about evil, not to mention suffering, existing in the world.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I understand your argument, of course, but the world did not HAVE to be that way. For God, the ways to create a world and all that’s in it, should be an infinite number. That is how I see it.

I am not trying to make an argument for/against the existence of God, only sharing thoughts I’ve had about evil, not to mention suffering, existing in the world.

Yep, I get what you are saying...

As a Christian, I have always looked at it this way....I am not living for this life, I am concerned with where I will be for eternity. If the God of the Bible exists, pain and suffering are temporary. It may seem horrible and beyond my understanding while going through it, but it pales to what I will experience for eternity. This life amounts to one grain of sand on the beachfront of eternity. I am not going to live for that one grain, when there is an entire beachfront as far as the eye can see.

If atheism is true, all the pain and suffering now become magnified. There is nothing to ultimately look forward to...no deliverance from the never ending trauma and chaos that life throws your way. Will never see those in my family that passed away. No ultimate authority to hold ppl accountable for all the wrong they have gotten away with in life (no matter how big or small we as humans judge that wrong).

Anyways, that's how I approach evil and suffering. Go Cats!

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If you believe in a creating God, it is easy to believe that he understands things much better than we and on a level that far surpasses comprehension. The Bible confirms that there will be pain inflicted by evil and that being a believer does not take you out of those tribulations. And, yet, Paul confirms in Romans that God is working out all things for good for those who love him. Which, I believe is akin to David’s lament for his ill son posted above. The pain is real, but in the scope of eternity will not seem like much. If you love Him, you will keep His commands. Love’s reward is an eternity with Him. Pain today left behind.

 

[megablue]

Yep, I get what you are saying...

As a Christian, I have always looked at it this way....I am not living for this life, I am concerned with where I will be for eternity. If the God of the Bible exists, pain and suffering are temporary. It may seem horrible and beyond my understanding while going through it, but it pales to what I will experience for eternity. This life amounts to one grain of sand on the beachfront of eternity. I am not going to live for that one grain, when there is an entire beachfront as far as the eye can see.

If atheism is true, all the pain and suffering now become magnified. There is nothing to ultimately look forward to...no deliverance from the never ending trauma and chaos that life throws your way. Will never see those in my family that passed away. No ultimate authority to hold ppl accountable for all the wrong they have gotten away with in life (no matter how big or small we as humans judge that wrong).

Anyways, that's how I approach evil and suffering. Go Cats!

I understand. That is what I was taught and understood for many years. Thanks for your replies.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Yep, I get what you are saying...

As a Christian, I have always looked at it this way....I am not living for this life, I am concerned with where I will be for eternity. If the God of the Bible exists, pain and suffering are temporary. It may seem horrible and beyond my understanding while going through it, but it pales to what I will experience for eternity. This life amounts to one grain of sand on the beachfront of eternity. I am not going to live for that one grain, when there is an entire beachfront as far as the eye can see.

If atheism is true, all the pain and suffering now become magnified. There is nothing to ultimately look forward to...no deliverance from the never ending trauma and chaos that life throws your way. Will never see those in my family that passed away. No ultimate authority to hold ppl accountable for all the wrong they have gotten away with in life (no matter how big or small we as humans judge that wrong).

Anyways, that's how I approach evil and suffering. Go Cats!

I find this to be a remarkably horrible way to live. Living each day and seeing only “never ending chaos and trauma “, while anxiously anticipating one’s own ultimate demise and hoping that some ancient tales of life after death is actually true.

As for me, I live each day like it may be my last. I’m happy to experience life’s pleasures, and am content knowing that once I’m dead, that’s it. I will return to the state of nonexistence that I was in for the first 13.7 billion years that the universe has been around. I feel I have a firm grasp on reality, so no need to believe in fairytales. Keeps my Sunday mornings free, and saves me 10% of my take home pay as well.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I find this to be a remarkably horrible way to live. Living each day and seeing only “never ending chaos and trauma “, while anxiously anticipating one’s own ultimate demise and hoping that some ancient tales of life after death is actually true.

Not sure you really read his post. 😂

As for me, I live each day like it may be my last.

Really? Give us an insight into how that looks.

I’m happy to experience life’s pleasures, and am content knowing that once I’m dead, that’s it. I will return to the state of nonexistence that I was in for the first 13.7 billion years that the universe has been around. I feel I have a firm grasp on reality, so no need to believe in fairytales. Keeps my Sunday mornings free, and saves me 10% of my take home pay as well.

I hope you did not intend for this to sound as selfish as it reads.

 

[megablue]

If you believe in a creating God, it is easy to believe that he understands things much better than we and on a level that far surpasses comprehension. The Bible confirms that there will be pain inflicted by evil and that being a believer does not take you out of those tribulations. And, yet, Paul confirms in Romans that God is working out all things for good for those who love him. Which, I believe is akin to David’s lament for his ill son posted above. The pain is real, but in the scope of eternity will not seem like much. If you love Him, you will keep His commands. Love’s reward is an eternity with Him. Pain today left behind.

Yes. I understand the traditional theology, of course. I still have the question(s) and would certainly ask a creator "why did it you do it this way?" ... should I ever be afforded the opportunity. That ever being the case, I sense he would love me, certainly understand and appreciate my asking, as he would know me better than I know myself. Thanks, as always, for the reply.

 

[TopCatCal]

I find this to be a remarkably horrible way to live. Living each day and seeing only “never ending chaos and trauma “, while anxiously anticipating one’s own ultimate demise and hoping that some ancient tales of life after death is actually true.

As for me, I live each day like it may be my last. I’m happy to experience life’s pleasures, and am content knowing that once I’m dead, that’s it. I will return to the state of nonexistence that I was in for the first 13.7 billion years that the universe has been around. I feel I have a firm grasp on reality, so no need to believe in fairytales. Keeps my Sunday mornings free, and saves me 10% of my take home pay as well.

There have been several well known atheists that has cried out to the Lord on their deathbed.

Philippians 2:10-11..... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11. and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the father.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

There have been several well known atheists that has cried out to the Lord on their deathbed.

Oh, I have no doubt that this true. The thought of death can be extremely frightening. That’s why the fairytale story of “life after death” is so compelling. I can see where most people prefer to believe they will live on forever in a state of bliss. And few choose to accept the fact that once your brain stops functioning and your consciousness ends, that’s it! Fade to black and roll credits. The end.

 

[cole854]

Oh, I have no doubt that this true. The thought of death can be extremely frightening. That’s why the fairytale story of “life after death” is so compelling. I can see where most people prefer to believe they will live on forever in a state of bliss. And few choose to accept the fact that once your brain stops functioning and your consciousness ends, that’s it! Fade to black and roll credits. The end.

You're truly a moron.

 

[SDC888]

Oh, I have no doubt that this true. The thought of death can be extremely frightening. That’s why the fairytale story of “life after death” is so compelling. I can see where most people prefer to believe they will live on forever in a state of bliss. And few choose to accept the fact that once your brain stops functioning and your consciousness ends, that’s it! Fade to black and roll credits. The end.

Fact according to whom? To you? Sure, for you and others of similar mindset, it's a "fact."

But your "fact" placates your fear. There's nothing to fear about "your" rolling the credits, fade to black. That's no more to be feared than falling asleep at night.

 

[megablue]

Fact according to whom? To you? Sure, for you and others of similar mindset, it's a "fact."

But your "fact" placates your fear. There's nothing to fear about "your" rolling the credits, fade to black. That's no more to be feared than falling asleep at night.

I relate to WildcatFanin Ohio and realize that believers certainly disagree, but with regards to "according to whom" ... here is but one of many explanations about how death is final and there is no afterlife. There are many very interesting videos of lengthy debates focused on this very issue of "is death final?" that you might enjoy watching on youtube. One is shown below, too. I find these discussions, debates and presentations fascinating ...



I know most believers think it is the soul that lives on. I understand the belief, as I was taught and believed it for many years. The question that begs is ... what is a soul ?? Is it comprised of matter ?? If not composed of matter, how does it exist ?? If composed of matter, how come science has not been able to detect it ??

Does the Soul Exist? Evidence Says ‘Yes’

How do we know if souls really exist? A string of new scientific experiments helps answer this ancient spiritual question.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[SDC888]

I relate to WildcatFanin Ohio and realize that believers certainly disagree, but with regards to "according to whom" ... here is but one of many explanations about how death is final and there is no afterlife. There are many very interesting videos of length debates focused on this very issue of "is death final?" that you might enjoy watching on youtube. I find these discussions, debates and presentations fascinating ...

View embedded media

I already know the scientific materialist reductionist theory.

Like I said, according to whom? People with a mindset, ie, peopl with a certain desire, one that they wear on their sleeve.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Fact according to whom? To you? Sure, for you and others of similar mindset, it's a "fact."

But your "fact" placates your fear. There's nothing to fear about "your" rolling the credits, fade to black. That's no more to be feared than falling asleep at night.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky
Imagine all the people
Livin' for today

 

[mcnicKY91]

I find this to be a remarkably horrible way to live. Living each day and seeing only “never ending chaos and trauma “, while anxiously anticipating one’s own ultimate demise and hoping that some ancient tales of life after death is actually true.

As for me, I live each day like it may be my last. I’m happy to experience life’s pleasures, and am content knowing that once I’m dead, that’s it. I will return to the state of nonexistence that I was in for the first 13.7 billion years that the universe has been around. I feel I have a firm grasp on reality, so no need to believe in fairytales. Keeps my Sunday mornings free, and saves me 10% of my take home pay as well.

Unfortunately 99% of your response had nothing to do with what I posted. At all.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I relate to WildcatFanin Ohio and realize that believers certainly disagree, but with regards to "according to whom" ... here is but one of many explanations about how death is final and there is no afterlife. There are many very interesting videos of lengthy debates focused on this very issue of "is death final?" that you might enjoy watching on youtube. One is shown below, too. I find these discussions, debates and presentations fascinating ...

View embedded media

View embedded media

I know most believers think it is the soul that lives on. I understand the belief, as I was taught and believed it for many years. The question that begs is ... what is a soul ?? Is it comprised of matter ?? If not composed of matter, how does it exist ?? If composed of matter, how come science has not been able to detect it ??

Does the Soul Exist? Evidence Says ‘Yes’

How do we know if souls really exist? A string of new scientific experiments helps answer this ancient spiritual question.

www.psychologytoday.com

What is a personality? Are you just a product of your hardware? There are questions that atheists should ponder that have nothing to do with God, but with what makes you you. And, then, if you have experienced something that does not make physical sense to you, like seeing a vision or knowing something before it occurs, you have to ask yourself, what is at play? That is, if you have experienced such things.

There appears, to me, whether a god or not, that there is more at play in our environment and within ourselves than we understand.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Unfortunately 99% of your response had nothing to do with what I posted. At all.

He is mainly here to bait. It is how he lives his life each day as if it is his last. 😜

 

[MidseasonTweak]

There have been several well known atheists that has cried out to the Lord on their deathbed.

Philippians 2:10-11..... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11. and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the father.

And? This proves nothing, lol.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

You're truly a moron.

There's that Christian love.

 

[megablue]

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky
Imagine all the people
Livin' for today

JUST TO CHANGE THINGS UP: This guy certainly got to everybody ... to say the least. BRAVO !!

 

[MatteoV25]

I have several questions that keep me from truly following Christianity that no one has been able to answer yet. The main ones for me are did God know that Satan would revolt against him? And if so, why did he allow it to happen if he had the foresight to see what it would cause? And finally, how was this able to happen in heaven where there is supposed to be no negative emotions or acts (if I'm wrong about this part, please tell me with evidence I must add)? This is not meant as a gotcha, I'm truly just curious.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I have several questions that keep me from truly following Christianity that no one has been able to answer yet. The main ones for me are did God know that Satan would revolt against him? And if so, why did he allow it to happen if he had the foresight to see what it would cause? And finally, how was this able to happen in heaven where there is supposed to be no negative emotions or acts (if I'm wrong about this part, please tell me with evidence I must add)? This is not meant as a gotcha, I'm truly just curious.

That's a good question. Here is a link that answers it (not a long read) in the same manner I would, but it's easier for me to provide link. Maybe it's nothing new to you, but again, it's how I would answer your question.

If God knew that Satan would rebel, why did He create him? | GotQuestions.org

If God knew that Satan would rebel, why did He create him? Why didn’t God prevent Satan from rebelling?

www.gotquestions.org

I would also say, there are many things about God, that we as humanity, will never understand. That's why He is God, and we aren't. For me, that doesn't take away or diminish everything we do know about God and understand from His Word.

 

[MatteoV25]

That's a good question. Here is a link that answers it (not a long read) in the same manner I would, but it's easier for me to provide link. Maybe it's nothing new to you, but again, it's how I would answer your question.

If God knew that Satan would rebel, why did He create him? | GotQuestions.org

If God knew that Satan would rebel, why did He create him? Why didn’t God prevent Satan from rebelling?

www.gotquestions.org

I would also say, there are many things about God, that we as humanity, will never understand. That's why He is God, and we aren't. For me, that doesn't take away or diminish everything we do know about God and understand from His Word.

To be very blunt, it seems a bit like unnecessarily creating a problem so that he could provide a solution. Kind of similar to how Apple took out the headphone jack from the iPhone so that they could sell Air Pods.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I have several questions that keep me from truly following Christianity that no one has been able to answer yet. The main ones for me are did God know that Satan would revolt against him? And if so, why did he allow it to happen if he had the foresight to see what it would cause? And finally, how was this able to happen in heaven where there is supposed to be no negative emotions or acts (if I'm wrong about this part, please tell me with evidence I must add)? This is not meant as a gotcha, I'm truly just curious.

Why would he rape a teenaged virgin that was married to someone else just so he could have a kid, then have his kid killed to prove how much he loved everyone? How’s that for a head-scratcher?

 

[JDHoss]

If you do much driving along the interstate, I'm sure you've seen the 83 for TRUTH billboards along the interstates and other major roads. Their message urges you to call them to discuss your future in the afterlife, your present difficulties and how you can turn your life around if only you'll call them. My favorite one is on US-1 just outside of Fort Pierce where Jesus has a comically over the top reproachful look while urging you not to get an abortion, which I find ironic, since God (if real) is the biggest abortion provider in the world. My questions for anyone who cares to answer...

* Is this a money grab scam? I'd imagine if you call the number, at some point, you'll be asked for money.

* I've read that there are well over 1K of these billboards across the country. The cost of a billboard will run between $750 to $2000 a month, depending on the location. Lets say the average cost is $1300 per month and there are 1200 billboards. That's $18,720,000 per year spent on these ads. How many homeless shelters, food banks, addiction treatment centers, or medical clinics could be helped by that money? I'd like to think if there were such a thing as a God, he'd be pissed at this group for blowing money on billboards that could be spent on actually helping people.

 

[MatteoV25]

Why would he rape a teenaged virgin that was married to someone else just so he could have a kid, then have his kid killed to prove how much he loved everyone? How’s that for a head-scratcher?

I do have to say from everything I've read, Mary consented and she was only engaged at the time so no adultery technically.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I do have to say from everything I've read, Mary consented and she was only engaged at the time so no adultery technically.

That Mary was out there gettin’ busy. Playing the field. They say that dudes with power get the chicks. It must have worked for the invisible man. I still feel sorry for Joseph. Dude got a raw deal. Turned into a cuck, then he had to help raise the kid.

So, what about the killing of JC just to express love? Who does that? I’ve heard a thousand times that the invisible man works in mysterious ways, but WOW! That’s a whole other level of mysterious. That’s just insane.

 

[mcnicKY91]

To be very blunt, it seems a bit like unnecessarily creating a problem so that he could provide a solution. Kind of similar to how Apple took out the headphone jack from the iPhone so that they could sell Air Pods.

I believe you said you started going to church again with your family, and that you liked the pastor. You should ask his opinion, am always curious to hear what pastors think on challenging questions such as those...

You are right, God didn't have to create any of this. Spot on. The Bible is clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternal, and have lived in perfect harmony with each other for eternity.

They had no need to create the world/universe. Not like they needed us. It will always be a mystery, to us, as to why they did.

But the Bible gives a few insights as to why God did, chiefly to receive glory and honor (Revelation 4:11, Colossians 1:16)...and to share His love with humanity and for humanity to share God's love with each other and experience the riches of God's goodness.

Again, you are right, there was no need for God to create any of this. But He chose to. Speaking for myself, not fully understanding why God created all this is not a sticking point for believing whether or not Christianity is true.

 

[megablue]

That Mary was out there gettin’ busy. Playing the field. They say that dudes with power get the chicks. It must have worked for the invisible man. I still feel sorry for Joseph. Dude got a raw deal. Turned into a cuck, then he had to help raise the kid.

So, what about the killing of JC just to express love? Who does that? I’ve heard a thousand times that the invisible man works in mysterious ways, but WOW! That’s a whole other level of mysterious. That’s just insane.

I know there are arguments for it and theological explanations, but God the Father sent his only son to earth to brutally die for the forgiveness of the sings of mankind ... why didn't he just simply forgive the sins ?? Why the sacrifice ?? I know that is always considered a mystery, of course, but it does beg the question of ... is this the only and best way he could've accomplished the forgiveness ??

 

[mcnicKY91]

I know there are arguments it and theological explanations, but God the Father sent his only son to earth to brutally die for the forgiveness of the sings of mankind ... why didn't he just simply forgive the sins ?? Why the sacrifice ?? I know that is always considered a mystery, of course, but it does beg the question of ... is this the only and best way he could've accomplished the forgiveness ??

I don't think it is any different than how we function as a society.

Something as minor as theft from a small convenient store...the owner can forgive me, but I still have to face the consequences of my actions.

Something as major as murder...if my child was murdered, I can forgive the offender, but they still have face the consequences of their decision, doesn't matter if the person they offended forgives them.

No different then God forgiving us for our sin. Someone still has to face the music for all the wrong humanity has done, and that person was Jesus.

Forgiveness does not equal lack of consequence, whether it's God or society...

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I don't think it is any different than how we function as a society.

Something as minor as theft from a small convenient store...the owner can forgive me, but I still have to face the consequences of my actions.

Something as major as murder...if my child was murdered, I can forgive the offender, but they still have face the consequences of their decision, doesn't matter if the person they offended forgives them.

No different then God forgiving us for our sin. Someone still has to face the music for all the wrong humanity has done, and that person was Jesus.

Forgiveness does not equal lack of consequence, whether it's God or society...

If you robbed a convenience store, would you think it would be normal if the owner had his son tortured and brutally executed as a sign of his forgiveness?

If someone murdered one of your children, would your course of action be to have another of your children tortured and brutally executed as a sign that you forgive the murderer?

I see a major flaw in this. A supposedly super-intelligent designer of all living things uses these tactics as a way of showing forgiveness. It leads me to believe that the story of JC as the scapegoat is made-up nonsense.

 

[mcnicKY91]

If you robbed a convenience store, would you think it would be normal if the owner had his son tortured and brutally executed as a sign of his forgiveness?

If someone murdered one of your children, would your course of action be to have another of your children tortured and brutally executed as a sign that you forgive the murderer?

I see a major flaw in this. A supposedly super-intelligent designer of all living things uses these tactics as a way of showing forgiveness. It leads me to believe that the story of JC as the scapegoat is made-up nonsense.

Just like last time, your post addresses nothing that I said, in the slightest. You clearly just enjoy trolling, which is how, according to your earlier post, you life your best life.

You believe what you want, everyone will be accountable for their sin, everyone.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Just like last time, your post addresses nothing that I said, in the slightest. You clearly just enjoy trolling, which is how, according to your earlier post, you life your best life.

You believe what you want, everyone will be accountable for their sin, everyone.

How did I not address what you wrote? You said…

“No different then God forgiving us for our sin. Someone still has to face the music for all the wrong humanity has done, and that person was Jesus.”

I then asked if it made sense that JC was used as a scapegoat? And if JC died for our “sins”, why do we have to be held accountable for them?

 

[megablue]

If you robbed a convenience store, would you think it would be normal if the owner had his son tortured and brutally executed as a sign of his forgiveness?

If someone murdered one of your children, would your course of action be to have another of your children tortured and brutally executed as a sign that you forgive the murderer?

I see a major flaw in this. A supposedly super-intelligent designer of all living things uses these tactics as a way of showing forgiveness. It leads me to believe that the story of JC as the scapegoat is made-up nonsense.

Even though our sins are supposedly forgiven by his death, I always understood that it was mankind’s original sin that drew the consequences of pain, sickness, suffering, misery, etc. that all became the unfortunate part of the human condition. So, Jesus’ death allowed his Father to forgive mankind’s sins and permit entrance to Heaven, but the the sad consequences of sin, via the human condition, still remained ?? So … my point is still … why the brutal death … just forgive them. I don’t get it.

Of course, TOTAL forgiveness would forgive everything, including all consequences. Even more so, why not just go ahead and forgive TOTALLY and restore mankind to life as originally depicted in the Garden of Eden ??

 

[Caveman Catfan]

“I don’t get it.”
* * *
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭ESV

 

[mcnicKY91]

Even though our sins are supposedly forgiven by his death, I always understood that it was mankind’s original sin that drew the consequences of pain, sickness, suffering, misery, etc. that all became the unfortunate part of the human condition. So, Jesus’ death allowed his Father to forgive mankind’s sins and permit entrance to Heaven, but the the sad consequences of sin, via the human condition, still remained ?? So … my point is still … why the brutal death … just forgive them. I don’t get it.

Of course, TOTAL forgiveness would forgive everything, including all consequences. Even more so, why not just go ahead and forgive TOTALLY and restore mankind to life as originally depicted in the Garden of Eden ??

I think you are conflating earthly consequences that result from sin with eternal consequence that results from sin.

Jesus' death on the cross, in no way, shape or form (and our relationship with God through our faith in Jesus) eliminates earthly consequences from sin. The Bible is clear that all ppl, whether believers or non believers, will face trial, tribulation, and earthly consequence from their sinful choices.

However, one's faith in Christ's work on the cross does deliver them from the eternal consequence of their sin, which is eternal death (eternal separation from God). We don't have to face that consequence, Jesus did on our behalf.

 

[megablue]

I think you are conflating earthly consequences that result from sin with eternal consequence that results from sin.

Jesus' death on the cross, in no way, shape or form (and our relationship with God through our faith in Jesus) eliminates earthly consequences from sin. The Bible is clear that all ppl, whether believers or non believers, will face trial, tribulation, and earthly consequence from their sinful choices.

However, one's faith in Christ's work on the cross does deliver them from the eternal consequence of their sin, which is eternal death (eternal separation from God). We don't have to face that consequence, Jesus did on our behalf.

Perhaps I did not write correctly, but I have always pretty much understood the distinctions you have made. Thanks for the reply.