There is no way I can read his post and your post and conclude you understood his post.
POLL: Is there a God ??
- Thread starter megablue
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There is no way I can read his post and your post and conclude you understood his post.
I’ve often wondered how honest, reasonable theists reconcile their beliefs with evolution. It’s so obvious to anyone who takes even a small interest in biology. I’d like to ask them when, during the evolution of humans, did theism arise.
Morality is not dependent upon theism. Neither is goodness, or friendliness, helpfulness, concern, love, devotion, loyalty, faithfulness or caring. These are attributes that are taught to members of a society, whether it’s as small as a village or as large as a nation. No mythical god is needed for credulity. Goodness and badness are self-evident, even in the “lower animals.”
But now being overshadowed by, “Are we alone?”
Or (soon), “Can AI answer/do this for me?”
You believe in a fairy man because mom and dad told you he was real. Like I said.
My post said nothing about objective morality...or where morality comes from.
My post had everything to do with what gives life meaning. It is 100% undeniable that life is ultimately meaningless if atheism is true.
If your kid dies from cancer...it is ultimately meaningless, as they live in pain and then die. There was no point to their life. If your family gets killed by a drunk driver and you are the only one remaining, it doesn't matter. Your family is dead and can't remember a darn thing about anything. Their lives and subsequent death are completely meaningless. As will yours and mine be, whenever that comes, if atheism is true.
Thank you.
I hate the lazy narrative that one must worship a deity to be a good, moral person.
I know for an absolute fact I live my life in a more godly manner than many religious people I know. Been married for two decades. Never cheated on my wife. Never hit my wife. We donate time and money to help the less fortunate. And so on.
It really burns me up when someone on their third wife with side pieces all around and who also looks down upon the less fortunate tries to tell me I’m the bad person because I don’t sit in a building for an hour on Sundays. The belief that one must be religious to be a good person is a huge load of bullshit.
So, if a community comes together and says abortion is a moral evil, you will agree? And if another community decides abortion is good, you will also agree? Or, would you have a third opinion as to whether abortion is good or bad?
Without an objective moral absolute, what is good and what is bad is an opinion. Sure, groups of people can come together and compromise or agree on the subject, but as the majority changes their collective opinion, what was good becomes bad and what was bad becomes good.
When morality is an opinion, behavior can be legislated, but cannot be called wrong, because it is just a matter of opinion. We may legislate murder as illegal, but who are we to say it is truly morally wrong? Just the majority?
Whether Hitler was doing good or evil is likewise just opinion. Whether life is precious also just becomes an opinion. We have plenty of moral opinions, just no moral truths.
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No one has said that in this thread that I am aware of. And if they have, they are completely wrong.
Nobody needs to be a believer in Jesus Christ to have morals and act decently toward their neighbor. Nobody. And I don't know of any Christians that would claim that. Heck, there are many non Christians who live better lives, morally speaking, then self described Christians.
The question is where does the moral standard come from that is written in everyone's heart that we all follow and know to be true...
What if somebody that is atheist doesn’t agree with you and thinks their life has great meaning, does your opinion that their life is pointless trump their opinion that it’s not?
Your self-righteousness aside, I did not believe in God until my mid-thirties. So, if your belief is founded on deluding yourself about others, you may be the one believing in fairy tales.
I have always found this to be such a lazy argument that atheists use. There are sooooooo many Christians worldwide that have a saving faith in Christ Jesus, none of which had parents that were believers, or went to church at an early age, or were exposed to the Bible at an early age. Every Christian has a different story as to how they came to believe in Christ, and they are all so unique and different.
My favorite ones include former atheists (correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that includes you??) who have gone out of their way to show there is no reasonable evidence to support Jesus' resurrection, and the next thing you know, they accept Jesus as their Savior based upon their examination of the evidence. Always love those stories!
I loved debating Christians and most often described myself as an agnostic, but also as an atheist. Actually reading scripture changed my heart.
Many of the lazy atheists who pretend others are just doing what their parents told them are from families where their parents are/were believers. So, for them, it is just a way to puff that they are better than those who could not deny their upbringing. It’s just a self-serving argument that for many stems from insecurity.
Decisions made on rebelling against parents are just as weak as blindly following your parents.
Many of the lazy atheists who pretend others are just doing what their parents told them are from families where their parents are/were believers. So, for them, it is just a way to puff that they are better than those who could not deny their upbringing. It’s just a self-serving argument that for many stems from insecurity.
Decisions made on rebelling against parents are just as weak as blindly following your parents.
I alluded to that in my initial post. Of course ppl can think their life, as temporary or short lived as it may be, has some type of meaning while they are alive. Heck, it might even have some type of influence into the immediate or long term future...
But ultimately, what meaning does it have? Serial killers think their life has meaning....as do rapists and pedofiles. Wealthy philanthropists thinks their lives, as well as all those in the future their philanthropy has effected (that they will never know anything about), has meaning. But what does it ultimately mean is the question? If we all are just going to die in a heat death, and the Earth destroyed at some point, what does it matter?
No one is held accountable for what they have done, in the slightest. Everyone is just dust when it is all said and done. And generally speaking, 99.9% of ppl are long forgotten after their death. Sounds pretty bleak to me. The only ppl that are remembered are the .00001% that are in the history books for something accomplished in their life that had some type of long term effect.
Sounds beyond hopeless to me.
We learn what’s good and bad by trial and error and then we teach our offspring what we have learned. Many animals, especially mammals do the same thing.
Being good smooths our relations with others. Being bad brings consequences. It’s not a deep concept.
Hitler says exterminating the Jews is good...he performed plenty of trial and error, and said it was good.
Germany wins the war. Everyone now follows along and kills all the Jews, because Hitler's morality says it is good. Everyone now adopts that morality, and says it is good....see your problem?
Atheism has no defense of where morality comes from. Never has, never will. Even the most reputable atheists know they have a huge problem when it comes to objective morality.
Fair enough, thanks for the response. One thing that I’ve always found kind of interesting is that it seems people that are very religious believe in their heart of hearts, deep down with conviction, is that those that don’t believe what they do have pointless lives, no morality, and are going to burn in unimaginable agony for eternity in hell. Almost like a pure disdain for humanity. Not saying you’re wrong to believe it or judging you or anything, just always found it an interesting way to view people.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
But, if we had a book full of ancient tales, and we followed the xian god, what would we think about genocide? Didn’t he wipe out damn near every living thing, according to the tale of Noah? And you likely think he’s a good dude. And at the same time you likely think genocide is a bad thing? Where did your objective morality come from?
Society plays a larger role in determining morality than ancient mythology, whether it be the Bible, Koran or Torah. That’s why societal norms vary by culture and region.
I don’t buy for one second that religion is the driver of morality as opposed to social customs and pressure.
I know not to kill people because of the threat of life in prison/execution, not because of some mythical enteral fire pit.
I know not to steal because of the threat of incarceration/restitution. Has nothing to do with being afraid of hell.
The Bible seemed to gloss right over the horrors of slavery, yet modern society determined it to be inhumane and illegal.
Pardon me for calling BS on the assertion that everyone's moral compass is rooted in religion if that’s what you meant by “where does the moral standard come from that is written in everyone's heart that we all follow and know to be true?”
Of course, again not judging or saying it’s a bad thing, just an interesting way to view people on their own.
I wonder why slavers cut portions out of the Bible before giving it to slaves if the Bible “glossed over” slavery and why Christians led the way to end slavery in this country. Odd.
By the way, I don’t think anyone argued our moral compasses are rooted in religion.
Your post and the condemning posts of the nonbelievers in this thread are the only places I recall seeing the things you posted about. I’d be interested to see where you have seen these thoughts in this thread from Christians:
“deep down with conviction, is that those that don’t believe what they do have pointless lives, no morality, and are going to burn in unimaginable agony for eternity in hell. Almost like a pure disdain for humanity.”
Unfortunately that does not address one thing that I said. We have never claimed that one needs to be religious to know what is morally right. You keep saying that over and over.
One does not need to read the Bible, or have a fear/knowledge of hell, to know, in their heart, what is morally right. I am not sure why you keep bringing that stuff up.
By the way, there is way too much stuff that has been proven to be true in the Bible for you to call it mythology...exponentially more then all the other religions combined, and it's not even close.
This is beyond ridiculous. God, as I've discussed before using his own actions talked about in the fantastical book of myths, the Bible, has a twisted sense of morality.
You're going to have a hard time justifying children being mauled or the genocide against HUMANITY through a flood, among other brutal examples that that is what we should attach ourselves to.
I'll stick to being a decent person, who grew up learning right and wrong social norms from my parents and not the barbaric views of primitive Christian views.
There's no love like Christian hate.
Nah...I follow Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. That is all that I follow. God Bless brother.
Yes, you’re absolutely right. Goodness is subjective. Very subjective. How is that a problem?
Maybe you mean that following along blindly with someone else’s subjective idea of goodness is the problem? I couldn’t agree more. WW II was caused by an entire nation supporting a depraved individual’s idea that extermination of “undesirables” was good. When they decided to force everyone else to follow along, which was bad (very bad for them all), they were smashed to smithereens.
We’re experiencing that in our current campaign for President, aren’t we? Several individuals trying to get us to accept their ideas as good and their opponents’ ideas as bad. Could it be…,oh, I don’t know…,uh…human nature?
Well, I suspect that anyone would have a problem with objective morality since it’s subjective and individualistic, and can’t therefore be objective. For your edification and for clarity in this discussion, let’s remember that morals are individualistic and mores are social norms that are widely observed within a particular society or culture. Many people confuse morals with mores.
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Every person in this thread, and their parents, have been blessed by the moral influences of the Bible. Thank God.
No problem. I enjoy responding to those, like yourself, who enjoy having a serious conversation, and don't resort to bashing one's faith or using laughing emojis in an attempt to belittle one's post repeatedly. It is a breath of fresh air.
And as a follow up to your thought above, genuine Christians know that nobody's life is pointless. The Bible is clear on two things repeatedly...we are all made in God's image, and we are all sinners in need of a Savior.
If only one non believer comes to a saving faith in Christ in this thread, we will rejoice and be glad.
You’re actually evangelizing? We’ll, it’s one thing to try to get people to think the way you do but let me ask you this: Are you also a Christian Nationalist who wants to force the government of this country to be religious in the same manner that many countries are Muslim and for its citizens to be coerced to follow “Christian Law?”
I think you might be in the wrong thread, my friend. If you want to discuss politics or "Christian nationalism", you might want to try out the political thread.
As a Christian, it is my job to give a defense of the faith. That has been the entire point of this thread. I do not think one atheist that has been posting in this thread would have a problem with what I just posted. They don't agree with it, but this is the appropriate place to post it.
as if Christianity invented the idea of not killing each other or not stealing from each other
I was an atheist and was raised in a non-religious household.
I look at you as myself, the way I was before. There's no doubt in my mind that you all think you are living well, good and moral meaningful lives, because I did too. I was no different.
Twitter and/or too much internet and manipulative media; their boogeyman to gin up fear for political expediency.
There may be more recent studies and polling data than the links below, but it appears that atheists are far less likely to be incarcerated for crimes than others. I've seen videos discussing this phenomenon, too. I do not know how accurate these links are and what the data might conclusively say or suggest about the morality of atheists ...
Are Prisoners Less Likely To Be Atheists?
Dear Mona, I recently read an article that said most of the prison population is religious while there are very few atheists in prison. Please tell if this is t…
In 2021, atheists made up only 0.1% of the federal prison population
Atheists and Humanists are all-but-absent in federal prison, according to new data obtained exclusively by OnlySky
onlysky.media
Albeit from THE FRIENDLY ATHEIST, you might find this video interesting ...
A fair and obvious question is how many atheists enter prison and convert during their incarceration. I’ve tried to find some information on this conversion rate, but have been unsuccessful.
Lastly, here is a recent article that includes point #7 that discusses the issue of morality, as relates to believers and non-believers.
8 facts about atheists
Around six-in-ten U.S. atheists are men (64%). And seven-in-ten are ages 49 or younger, compared with about half of U.S. adults overall (52%).
www.pewresearch.org
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So, no questions about your intentions are allowed? I’ll regard that as a deflection.
Since you don’t allow questions, I’ll just follow your example of making assertions. I will correct your statement to: “As an evangelical Christian, it is my job to give a defense of the faith.”
Most Christians don’t agree with this provocative reasoning. They see their faith as something that is personal and private, a code to live by and to sort out the complexities of the world. They don’t see a challenge around every corner or from every person who views life differently to them.
Rather, they accept that there are many faiths and that, to be respected for their beliefs, they are obligated to respect others’ beliefs.
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