POLL: Is there a God ??

[MatteoV25]

You answered your own question within the question.

The point was more about God knowing that things will happen and not do anything to prevent them rather than the simple act of sitting back and watching.

Wrong. Acknowledging that God gives me the same freedom to sin and rebel against Him that He gives rapists and murderers does not blame the victim in any way.

Is it really freedom if we're all just following the same plan that God laid out for all of us? The concept of free will dies a bit when you think that there's some higher power that knows everything you've done and ever will do . There's literally no other alternative if we all have only one path that we could ever follow. Under that concept, God knows that throughout time, there will be billions of his children that are meant to never make it to heaven and will be subject to hell.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I'd say it all depends on what each individual believes about God.

Does someone believe in creationism and that the Earth is only a few thousand years, for example? If so, carbon dating, fossils, and evolutionary data can be used to refute this.

If someone believes in the omnipotence and omniscience of God, there are several things that could refute this. How can a God be all-knowing and all-powerful yet allow for the murder, rape, disease, famine, etc. of his children? Most Christians tend to refute that with the simple thought of "sin" but that's really just a way out to put the blame on the victim (humanity) with incomparable power compared to God instead of blaming God for all of the bad things that happen in the world that he created.

To address your last paragraph...and I am sure this will not be a new revelation for you, but God does grant His creation free will. The alternative is robotics.

Speaking for myself, I would not want to live in a world where I am forced to live a certain way, with no alternative. I want to make my own choices, something that God grants. My choice is to want a relationship with my creator and be obedient to His will. Do I fail in that? Constantly. But I continually strive to that end, because I am given the free will to do so.

 

[MatteoV25]

You seem to be mixing conversations here.

The first is the question in the OP.

The second is your opinion about God as described in the Bible.

I mean, I guess. If someone can flat out tell me whether or not there is an invisible being out there that made all and controls all then I would ask how they know that information as well. My argument is more about discussing whether the basic concepts of God that are universally believed (omnipotence, omniscience, etc.) do not exist.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

The point was more about God knowing that things will happen and not do anything to prevent them rather than the simple act of sitting back and watching.

There is no evidence that God merely sits back and watches. That is not a scriptural description of God.

Is it really freedom if we're all just following the same plan that God laid out for all of us?

If it was not freedom, we would not be having this discussion.

The concept of free will dies a bit when you think that there's some higher power that knows everything you've done and ever will do .

You are beholden to time and trying to describe God in the box of time that we know did not exist before the Big Bang and, therefore, if there is a creator behind the creation, He is not so beholden. And, yes, if I watch a film about you driving a car and I have seen it before, I know which way you turn when you come upon an option in the path and my knowledge does not change the fact that you freely made that decision.

There's literally no other alternative if we all have only one path that we could ever follow. Under that concept, God knows that throughout time, there will be billions of his children that are meant to never make it to heaven and will be subject to hell.

God will judge and it is likely that you and I will get the choices we make, whether that is to live with God in a resurrected earth/heaven or not.

 

[MatteoV25]

To address your last paragraph...and I am sure this will not be a new revelation for you, but God does grant His creation free will. The alternative is robotics.

Speaking for myself, I would not want to live in a world where I am forced to live a certain way, with no alternative. I want to make my own choices, something that God grants. My choice is to want a relationship with my creator and be obedient to His will. Do I fail in that? Constantly. But I continually strive to that end, because I am given the free will to do so.

If God knows all in advance, we can't act in any way other than accordance to God's foreknowledge. I guess you could argue whether our life actions are based on what God has planned for us or whether he has no say in what we're going to do and only knows what will happen but then that damages the argument that he is all-powerful.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If God knows all in advance, we can't act in any way other than accordance to God's foreknowledge. I guess you could argue whether our life actions are based on what God has planned for us or whether he has no say in what we're going to do and only knows what will happen but then that damages the argument that he is all-powerful.

All powerful must mean the ability to refrain from using that power or it is NOT all powerful, by definition.

 

[MatteoV25]

There is no evidence that God merely sits back and watches. That is not a scriptural description of God.

If God plays an active role in our lives and yet there is still murder, rape, disease, etc. then anything else said afterwards does not matter in my opinion. A God that allows for these types of things to happen to his children (that he's supposed to love) is not worth worshipping to me.

 

[ukdesi]

All atheists will say that all the gods throughout history and across all cultures are absurd fictional characters. Xians will claim that only one of them is real, and all the rest are absurd fictional characters.

Not sure how I can prove to you that your favorite god is not real. I’ll see if someone chimes in with a test to prove that Amun-Ra does not exist, then I’ll use their method.

BEHOLD: THE GREAT AMON RA !!!!!

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If God plays an active role in our lives and yet there is still murder, rape, disease, etc. then anything else said afterwards does not matter in my opinion.

You are exclaiming that the only plausible way to believe in an all-powerful God is if He removes all evil and bad in the world so that there is no pain?

If so, explain the logic in that belief.

Also, read Revelation.

A God that allows for these types of things to happen to his children (that he's supposed to love) is not worth worshipping to me.

I agree that the god you say you could believe does not exist.

You will soon be a father. If your child ever tells you that a decision you make for her/him means you do not love her/him, please remember this conversation.

That said, God loves you.

 

[mcnicKY91]

If God plays an active role in our lives and yet there is still murder, rape, disease, etc. then anything else said afterwards does not matter in my opinion. A God that allows for these types of things to happen to his children (that he's supposed to love) is not worth worshipping to me.

God will judge all for what they have done in this life. The Bible is clear on that. Nobody is going to heaven or hell by accident. God knows what he is doing.

I guess here is the fundamental difference. Christians are not living for this life. We are living to spend eternity with Jesus. So yeah, when we see sucky, horrible things that happen in this life, we know that eternity is what matters, not our lives on Earth, which are a vapor, they come and go.

In an atheist's worldview, a child who dies of cancer lives an absolute pointless life, right? They randomly come into this world, only to suffer, and poof, they are gone. That's it. Seems so pointless. However, if God exists, that little child who dies of cancer is living in eternity with Jesus, free of all their Earthly pain and suffering, experiencing an eternity of unmatched joy.

 

[MatteoV25]

You are exclaiming that the only plausible way to believe in an all-powerful God is if He removes all evil and bad in the world so that there is no pain?

If so, explain the logic in that belief.

Also, read Revelation.

My hope is that if there is a God that is out there that controls all of us and everything that happens to us, then he'd want to never see us go through pain and hurt similarly to how I'd never want my son to feel those emotions. If I have the power to prevent those things, you better believe I'd take every measure possible to make that happen. God is not that way, whether it's because of sin or not. That's not something that's ok with me.

I agree that the god you say you could believe does not exist.

You will soon be a father. If your child ever tells you that a decision you make for her/him means you do not love her/him, please remember this conversation.

That said, God loves you.

I guess the difference is that I don't have the same omnipotence and omniscience that God is supposed to have when it comes to decision making. I understand that one day my son will get upset and probably yell and scream that he hates me over something, that comes with the territory of being a parent it seems. The difference is that a reasonable parent would do everything possible to prevent any negative event from happening to their child. If God has the power to do something and doesn't do it, that's kind of crappy in my book.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I guess here is the fundamental difference. Christians are not living for this life. We are living to spend eternity with Jesus. So yeah, when we see sucky, horrible things that happen in this life, we know that eternity is what matters, not our lives on Earth, which are a vapor, they come and go.

A death cult.

Worshipping a bloody dead guy that’s been tortured and nailed to a cross. Weekly pretend cannibalism where you eat the dead guy and drink his blood. An entire lifetime spent in excited anticipation of being dead.

Weird stuff!

I can only speak for myself here, but that all sounds really bizarre. I choose to enjoy each day knowing that life is temporary. I get just a brief moment in time to relish the fact that I’m alive. So I have fun while I’m here.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

My hope is that if there is a God that is out there that controls all of us and everything that happens to us, then he'd want to never see us go through pain and hurt similarly to how I'd never want my son to feel those emotions.

You are the only one saying there is a god who controls all of us and everything that happens to us.

Pain and hurt will befall your son. Some of that pain and hurt will be ultimately good for him. Knowing that, I would think a loving father would not hide his son from that pain and hurt.

That does not mean it will not pain you in the moment, but you may know it is best for your son.

If I have the power to prevent those things, you better believe I'd take every measure possible to make that happen. God is not that way, whether it's because of sin or not. That's not something that's ok with me.

First, I know people who have had miracles in their lives that they attribute to God. The believer thanks a good God for all things good, because He is the creator of good. You believe God is not acting right now on your behalf, but maybe the bad in the world would have already seen your demise but for God.

I believe in the God of the Bible. Your comments about god are foreign to me, because they describe a God not of the Bible.

You would like a world where God controls you and everything else so that your short time here is without pain. You reject God because He has not met your expectations by creating the world you would create.

If you want God to be you, you will not be satisfied. I thank God He is not beholden to your plan or mine.

I guess the difference is that I don't have the same omnipotence and omniscience that God is supposed to have when it comes to decision making. I understand that one day my son will get upset and probably yell and scream that he hates me over something, that comes with the territory of being a parent it seems. The difference is that a reasonable parent would do everything possible to prevent any negative event from happening to their child. If God has the power to do something and doesn't do it, that's kind of crappy in my book.

If you helicopter over your kid and keep him from what you perceive as harm, that is kind of crappy in my book. Regardless of the theological aspect of this conversation, don’t do that. You will not be doing him favors if you protect him from every harm, just because you can.

 

[mcnicKY91]

A death cult.

Worshipping a bloody dead guy that’s been tortured and nailed to a cross. Weekly pretend cannibalism where you eat the dead guy and drink his blood. An entire lifetime spent in excited anticipation of being dead.

Weird stuff!

I can only speak for myself here, but that all sounds really bizarre. I choose to enjoy each day knowing that life is temporary. I get just a brief moment in time to relish the fact that I’m alive. So I have fun while I’m here.

If you are going to talk about communion, and what the actual purpose is, you need to reference what the Bible actually says communion is, and what the purpose is. Not one thing you said is remotely accurate. For me, if I say something, I make sure I back it up factually, and not just throw out simplistic stereotypes...

Just prior to Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus gathered His disciples in an upper room of a house to celebrate the Passover. It didn’t take long for the disciples to learn that there was another reason for their gathering. Matthew 26:26–29 says, “While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, ‘Take and eat; this is my body.’ Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.’” What the disciples thought was going to be a celebration turned into a somber prediction of the death of their master and leader.

 

[IdaCat]

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

If you are going to talk about communion, and what the actual purpose is, you need to reference what the Bible actually says communion is, and what the purpose is. Not one thing you said is remotely accurate. For me, if I say something, I make sure I back it up factually, and not just throw out simplistic stereotypes...

Just prior to Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus gathered His disciples in an upper room of a house to celebrate the Passover (*celebrate the deaths of Egyptian first born at the hands of a "prolife" god. Woohoo!). It didn’t take long for the disciples to learn that there was another reason for their gathering. Matthew 26:26–29 says, “While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, ‘Take and eat; this is my body.’ Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.’” What the disciples thought was going to be a celebration turned into a somber prediction of the death of their master and leader.

Like I said, canibalism and death cult. Very weird.

 

[MatteoV25]

You are the only one saying there is a god who controls all of us and everything that happens to us.

Pain and hurt will befall your son. Some of that pain and hurt will be ultimately good for him. Knowing that, I would think a loving father would not hide his son from that pain and hurt.

That does not mean it will not pain you in the moment, but you may know it is best for your son.



First, I know people who have had miracles in their lives that they attribute to God. The believer thanks a good God for all things good, because He is the creator of good. You believe God is not acting right now on your behalf, but maybe the bad in the world would have already seen your demise but for God.

I believe in the God of the Bible. Your comments about god are foreign to me, because they describe a God not of the Bible.

You would like a world where God controls you and everything else so that your short time here is without pain. You reject God because He has not met your expectations by creating the world you would create.

If you want God to be you, you will not be satisfied. I thank God He is not beholden to your plan or mine.



If you helicopter over your kid and keep him from what you perceive as harm, that is kind of crappy in my book. Regardless of the theological aspect of this conversation, don’t do that. You will not be doing him favors if you protect him from every harm, just because you can.

When I say harm, I don’t mean the day to day feelings of being sad. I’m talking about wanting to do everything in my power to avoid murder, rape, disease, irreparable emotional and physical damage, etc. The things that the God of the Bible allows to happen to his children every single day and for what? Because the people that he created didn’t follow the rules that he created even though they’re following the path that he created for all of us?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

You are struggling big time my friend. 99.999999% of atheists won't say what you said....but dagummit, I guess you are in the .0000001% who say that God doesn't exist. We are all awaiting the evidence you have to support your claim...

You caught him in his own trap and he cannot get out. He can only change the subject, now. His hypocrisy is patent.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

When I say harm, I don’t mean the day to day feelings of being sad. I’m talking about wanting to do everything in my power to avoid murder, rape, disease, irreparable emotional and physical damage, etc. The things that the God of the Bible allows to happen to his children every single day and for what? Because the people that he created didn’t follow the rules that he created even though they’re following the path that he created for all of us?

Not rules. People have chosen, just like you, to decide for themselves what is good and what is evil, and not trust God. In so choosing rebellion, we chose separation.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Theophan the Recluse: “By giving man freedom, God has yielded to man a piece of His Divine authority, but with the intention that man himself would voluntarily bring it as a sacrifice to God, a most perfect offering.”

 

[MegaBlue05]

Do you believe that Amun-Ra is real?

Of course. He’s a standout WR for the Lions. Last name is St. Brown. The man is both a god and a saint!

 

[MegaBlue05]

Mods, lock this thread. We are on page 69. A perfect ending spot.

Let us pray:
Lord, please
Murder my enemies
Burn em at 1000 degrees

Lord, please
Let me make mo cheese
‘Cause I ain’t quite ready to leave

The Rev. Ice Cube, deacon Scarface, 1997 AD

 

[cole854]

I'd say it all depends on what each individual believes about God.

Does someone believe in creationism and that the Earth is only a few thousand years, for example? If so, carbon dating, fossils, and evolutionary data can be used to refute this.

If someone believes in the omnipotence and omniscience of God, there are several things that could refute this. How can a God be all-knowing and all-powerful yet allow for the murder, rape, disease, famine, etc. of his children? Most Christians tend to refute that with the simple thought of "sin" but that's really just a way out to put the blame on the victim (humanity) with incomparable power compared to God instead of blaming God for all of the bad things that happen in the world that he created.

This entire post shows your lack of intelligence (understandable, given your position) on how God designed us.

 

[MegaBlue05]

This entire post shows your lack of intelligence (understandable, given your position) on how God designed us.

So the people who don’t believe in space fairies, talking snakes, virgin births, 800 year old dudes building boats, and other supernatural events that haven’t been seen since lack intelligence. But the ones who believe a story that someone told them as children despite no proof of it actually happening outside of a really old book that’s been revised and rewritten thousands of times by humans are the intelligent ones. Interesting.

If we replaced god with Easter bunny or Superman and biblical events with the plot of comic books in this scenario above, most religious folks would agree with my stance. That’s what makes it all seem suspect to me.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

So the people who don’t believe in space fairies, talking snakes, virgin births, 800 year old dudes building boats, and other supernatural events that haven’t been seen since lack intelligence. But the ones who believe a story that someone told them as children despite no proof of it actually happening outside of a really old book that’s been revised and rewritten thousands of times by humans are the intelligent ones. Interesting.

If we replaced god with Easter bunny or Superman and biblical events with the plot of comic books in this scenario above, most religious folks would agree with my stance. That’s what makes it all seem suspect to me.

Yeah, we can clearly see that the atheists are the high IQers. Makes sense. Thanks.

If you could, however, attempt to be kinder to the small brained believers, that would be nice. I know you don’t have to be kind, being an atheist and all, but if you could consider it, we peons sure would be thankful.

 

[MegaBlue05]

Yep. Because virgin birth is super logical and realistic as well.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Yep. Because virgin birth is super logical and realistic as well.

I did not expect to see an atheist become defensive over the pregnant man quip. This is a surprise.

 

[MatteoV25]

This entire post shows your lack of intelligence (understandable, given your position) on how God designed us.

I was raised in the church but whatever makes you feel smarter is fine by me. God designed us in his image and yet humanity has shown an affinity for war and destruction, what does that say about God?

As one grows, they can begin to become disillusioned by religion when they think about how ridiculous it is that a holy book talks about how to treat your slaves and fantasy stories including a man surviving in the stomach of a big fish or a talking bush or a talking donkey, so on and so forth.

 

[IdaCat]

Yep. Because virgin birth is super logical and realistic as well.

They're both religion to me. Difference between us is you politically correct bleeding hearts rail endlessly against one and treat the other as a sacred virtue, not to be questioned. And then pretend you're enlightened, lmao.

You lazy asses dgaf about logic, reason, or helping build a strong rational society. If you did, you'd see that the current threat is your very own pRoGrEsSiVe religion. And it has zero redeeming value.

 

[Louis_Skunt]

Absolutely theres a God. Dont you think its a little too coincidental that a planet thats 4.5 billion years old spawned human life forms at the same time on different continents simultaneously? Humans have only been around approx 7 million years.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I miss Tim Keller

 

[SDC888]

Here's a biochemist, who like me came to be a believer in Christ from an atheistic background and also like me believes the scientific evidence is overwhelming. Not proof, as that deson't exist either way, but God is the only coherent, logically sustainable conclusion.



Here's another scientist, whom I don't have much respect for otherwise, also describing in simple, lay terms how the science points to God.

 

[crashtestdummy]

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Individual beliefs mean nothing to anyone but the holder. The side of the fence they stand on is irrelevant.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I was raised in the church but whatever makes you feel smarter is fine by me. God designed us in his image and yet humanity has shown an affinity for war and destruction, what does that say about God?

As one grows, they can begin to become disillusioned by religion when they think about how ridiculous it is that a holy book talks about how to treat your slaves and fantasy stories including a man surviving in the stomach of a big fish or a talking bush or a talking donkey, so on and so forth.

You display your gross lack of understanding nearly every time you try one of your gotcha posts. You have zero understanding of the Bible and Christianity.

 

[MatteoV25]

You display your gross lack of understanding nearly every time you try one of your gotcha posts. You have zero understanding of the Bible and Christianity.

Sure thing buddy.

 

[BBBLazing]

When I say harm, I don’t mean the day to day feelings of being sad. I’m talking about wanting to do everything in my power to avoid murder, rape, disease, irreparable emotional and physical damage, etc. The things that the God of the Bible allows to happen to his children every single day and for what? Because the people that he created didn’t follow the rules that he created even though they’re following the path that he created for all of us?

I'll go even further with this. If God knows everything that has happened and will happen, why does he allow good, innocent people to go to a restaurant that he knows a bad guy is going to enter and murder everyone inside?

 

[BBBLazing]

Yeah, we can clearly see that the atheists are the high IQers. Makes sense. Thanks.

If you could, however, attempt to be kinder to the small brained believers, that would be nice. I know you don’t have to be kind, being an atheist and all, but if you could consider it, we peons sure would be thankful.

I am a Catholic that believes very little of what I was taught. While I'm old and have been retired for years, I can say that in my working years and the years I was raising my children, all in Catholic schools, the Catholics, and other Christians, have been the most judgmental, jealous, and least nice people I've met.

 

[BC_Wader]

I'll go even further with this. If God knows everything that has happened and will happen, why does he allow good, innocent people to go to a restaurant that he knows a bad guy is going to enter and murder everyone inside?

Have you ever been in a situation where the only explanation is that God got you out of it? You may not know it was God, but it was. I've had a loaded revolver at my head on downtown Louisville. When they say your life flashes before your eyes they ain't kidding! While it was a "joke", my instict was to take them where they aren't wanted and drop them off. I doubt that dude is still alive. Pure thug and I was with the right people at the time. Haven't been to the west end of Louisville since. This was about 30 years ago.

 

[BBBLazing]

Have you ever been in a situation where the only explanation is that God got you out of it? You may not know it was God, but it was. I've had a loaded revolver at my head on downtown Louisville. When they say your life flashes before your eyes they ain't kidding! While it was a "joke", my instict was to take them where they aren't wanted and drop them off. I doubt that dude is still alive. Pure thug and I was with the right people at the time. Haven't been to the west end of Louisville since. This was about 30 years ago.

So God is good when he gets you out of bad situations, but what about when he doesn't get good people out such situations? I've always wondered when an athlete thanks God for allowing them to hit the homerun or to recover the fumble. What about the guy that He let throw the pitch or fumble the ball? Why did he pick who he picked?