POLL: Is there a God ??

[cole854]

Does God control all or doesn't he? Free will is a complicated topic even without the mention of a high power in the mix but if it's clear to you then more power to you.

It isn't complicated at all. Let me condense it down for you.....you can go out right now and kill 10 people, give the same 10 a cheeseburger, etc. Your kids, no matter how great a parent you are, still have the choices to determine their own paths.

Again...study up. You will be enlightened.

 

[MatteoV25]

Despite your comment below, you will likely pick and choose when you intervene into your children’s lives, because you know a lot more than them. And, if you knew that your plan was for them to live forever and not suffer a second death, you would likely not focus on death or injury, but on the condition of their spirit.

Your question only makes any sense if there is no God. If you knew God existed, you would never ask the question, because it would be ridiculous.

I don't wanna have the same back and forth we did the other day but I'll just say that if my plan as a parent involved focusing on a supposed afterlife while allowing some of my kids to get murdered, raped, abused, whatever else happens to too many people everyday then I would not consider myself a good parent.

Normal life? What is “normal life” to you? I agree that dead best parents should not be praised. I do not agree with your analogy. It is not very sophisticated.

My normal life doesn't involve religion which is why I worded it that way. I'll agree to disagree on the analogy.

 

[SDC888]

We are dabbling a bit into word salad now, but to be clear, there is no consensus on what existed prior to the big bang. So, let's stop there.

What I typed is most certainly not a meaningless word salad.

That’s not why you want to stop.

 

[KAB Cats]

What I typed is most certainly not a meaningless word salad.

That’s not why you want to stop.

Oh Im interested. Why is it that "I want to stop?"

 

[MatteoV25]

It isn't complicated at all. Let me condense it down for you.....you can go out right now and kill 10 people, give the same 10 a cheeseburger, etc. Your kids, no matter how great a parent you are, still have the choices to determine their own paths.

Again...study up. You will be enlightened.

Right, right but do you believe that everything happens according to God's will? If so, then how is it free will if it's already preordained by God. If you don't then that directly contradicts the bible.

 

[KAB Cats]

I don't look at free will in the context of God because I don't believe in God.

In the case of a child making a decision, it would be true a child made that decision, but I don't believe that is proof of free will any more than an intelligent computer system making a choice is proof of free will. One way or the other, the decision maker is limited by the constraints of the system.

This is a hard pill to swallow for any human as we want to feel fully in control. In some respect, I see decision as an illusion of choice. The conclusion your brain makes is a product of past experience + biology and if all decision stems from past experience + biology, then following this causal chain backwards means that our choice is merely a function of environment + biology.

So, yes, "you" made that choice, but that doesn't mean that "you" could've made any other choice.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I don't wanna have the same back and forth we did the other day but I'll just say that if my plan as a parent involved focusing on a supposed afterlife while allowing some of my kids to get murdered, raped, abused, whatever else happens to too many people everyday then I would not consider myself a good parent.

Then don’t use the parent analogy, because God does not have a job to protect you from the fallen world we have created. Rather, He has stepped away to permit you to live as you desire. You exist because of Him, but you only exist for Him if you so choose. It’s foundational for true love to let the person you love be free to decide whether to love you or not, even if you know their best life would be with you.

If God helicoptered over your life to ensure nothing bad happened to you, you would not have a choice, but would be beholden to Him for protection, whether you wanted Him or not.

What you want to do in this discussion is accept the premise that God is all powerful, for purposes of your point, but reject the other foundations of scripture, such as a “supposed afterlife” that is eternal. That is a disingenuous approach to discussing the Biblical God.

I will suffer in this life. I will die. Loved ones will die. That won’t mean much if there is an eternity of no pain or death to follow. Scripture tells me all of the above is true.

If God knows those who want to be with Him will be with Him for eternity and those who do not, will not, your analogy simply fails. He is promising to people what they want, while telling them He wants them to want Him.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Right, right but do you believe that everything happens according to God's will?

The prayer you know teaches us to pray that God’s will will be done on earth just as in heaven. The natural meaning of that prayer is that everything currently does not happen according to God’s will.

 

[MatteoV25]

Then don’t use the parent analogy, because God does not have a job to protect you from the fallen world we have created.

He is supposed to have created the world then punished all of humanity because two people messed up. Rather than simply forgiving those two people for making one mistake, we are all now being punished even though we had absolutely no say in the decision.

Rather, He has stepped away to permit you to live as you desire. You exist because of Him, but you only exist for Him if you so choose. It’s foundational for true love to let the person you love be free to decide whether to love you or not, even if you know their best life would be with you.

Stepped away after unleashing the devil on the world and using free will to justify it. If we exist because of him, so does everything good or bad that ever happens to us. Is it still true love if the reaction you have to someone not deciding to love you back is that you burn them alive for eternity?

If God helicoptered over your life to ensure nothing bad happened to you, you would not have a choice, but would be beholden to Him for protection, whether you wanted Him or not.

Ephesians 1:11 "All things are done according to God's plan and decision." Thus, he decides for us.

What you want to do in this discussion is accept the premise that God is all powerful, for purposes of your point, but reject the other foundations of scripture, such as a “supposed afterlife” that is eternal. That is a disingenuous approach to discussing the Biblical God.

I will suffer in this life. I will die. Loved ones will die. That won’t mean much if there is an eternity of no pain or death to follow. Scripture tells me all of the above is true.

If God knows those who want to be with Him will be with Him for eternity and those who do not, will not, your analogy simply fails. He is promising to people what they want, while telling them He wants them to want Him.

Once again using the scripture above, it's part of God's plan for some people to be murdered, raped, for them to starve, face war and brutality, then after all of that they will burn in hell for all eternity. Very uncool

 

[MatteoV25]

The prayer you know teaches us to pray that God’s will will be done on earth just as in heaven. The natural meaning of that prayer is that everything currently does not happen according to God’s will.

The devil rebelled against God in heaven

 

[Caveman Catfan]

For the believers here:

Does the “I would do it different if I was God” argument from atheists and agnostics persuade you any anyway?

The “I can barely make an omelette, let alone a universe with a planet full of life, but I think I am more righteous than God of the Bible” is really not compelling to me. Is it to you?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

The devil rebelled against God in heaven

Yes. And was expelled. You rebel here and move along to rebel again. See the distinction?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

He is supposed to have created the world then punished all of humanity because two people messed up. Rather than simply forgiving those two people for making one mistake, we are all now being punished even though we had absolutely no say in the decision.

You do the same thing Adam and Eve did. And, thankfully, you can be forgiven. God is good.

Stepped away after unleashing the devil on the world and using free will to justify it. If we exist because of him, so does everything good or bad that ever happens to us. Is it still true love if the reaction you have to someone not deciding to love you back is that you burn them alive for eternity?

God permits you to live apart from Him, as you desire. Quit blaming Him for giving you what you want.

Ephesians 1:11 "All things are done according to God's plan and decision." Thus, he decides for us.

Once again using the scripture above, it's part of God's plan for some people to be murdered, raped, for them to starve, face war and brutality, then after all of that they will burn in hell for all eternity. Very uncool

”In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.“
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“We,” for Paul are the Jews, whom God chose as His people and the first to follow Christ. And, it’s true, the evil and ugliness of the world will eventually be used to work out God’s plan. While he permits bad things, His will and plan will be done.

”And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭28‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Everything God permits matches up with His wisdom and ultimately displays His holiness, justice, love, and grace. See the story of Joseph.

“God permits what He hates to achieve what He loves.” Joni Eareckson Tada.

God loved Abel. God permitted Cain to kill Abel. The prophets suffered for the righteousness of God. Christians have suffered and died for their faith.

Believers know that evil gets in its licks. God never promised otherwise. In fact, He promised it would be so. “There will be tribulations.”

God’s answer to evil and sin? The cross.

You would do it differently. We get it.

 

[MegaBlue05]

What? It took you 6 days to come up with that lame reply?

I've never pushed any religious belief whether it be labeled conservative, "liberal", or whatever. You're the one who uses politics to make exceptions for the irrational. Then you attack me for not playing by your narrow-minded, politically biased rules.

That was my point. Thanks for proving it.

I don’t live in the Paddock and rarely visit this thread. Apologies for the delayed response.

You keep referring to atheism as a religion (never knew of services and official holy texts or rituals or anything resembling an organized religion), and insinuated atheism was a “pRoGrEsSiVe” religion, which has political connotations. Don’t act naive.

You interjected a meme about trans people in a discussion about if there is a god.

Your posting history amounts to all of society’s ills are because of woke/left/liberal/progressive/Marxist/communist/socialist used interchangeably. Just calling a spade a spade.

 

[MatteoV25]

Yes. And was expelled. You rebel here and move along to rebel again. See the distinction?

Right but if heaven is where God’s will is done then God purposely created the devil to rebel against him which led to human sin.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Right but if heaven is where God’s will is done then God purposely created the devil to rebel against him which led to human sin.

We agree that creation is purposely performed by God and that God knows what happens in the realm of time from a place not beholden to time. He knew that free will would be the source of rebellion and sin when he created beings with free will.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Be reconciled to God through His son, Jesus, and be saved.

 

[mcnicKY91]

For the believers here:

Does the “I would do it different if I was God” argument from atheists and agnostics persuade you any anyway?

The “I can barely make an omelette, let alone a universe with a planet full of life, but I think I am more righteous than God of the Bible” is really not compelling to me. Is it to you?

Seems to me, at least with most atheists in this thread and the ones I interact with outside this thread...they insist they would have created a world in which the possibility of no evil exists if they were God.

However, has had been discussed and pointed out numerous times in this thread, if that were the case, free will is completely gone at that point. We would all be "programmed" to behave in a certain way, completely limiting our ability to actually have a genuine, meaningful relationship with our Creator, and with each other.

If we are all "programmed" to do what is good and right, true love amongst people inherently cannot exist, nor can it exist with our Creator. It is all robotic, and therefore, meaningless.

So to answer your question...no, that question/idea has never resonated with me as a believer.

 

[SDC888]

That question cannot resonate with me as a believer.

As an unbeliever, I remember having similar in kind sentiments.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

Seems to me, at least with most atheists in this thread and the ones I interact with outside this thread...they insist they would have created a world in which the possibility of no evil exists if they were God.

However, has had been discussed and pointed out numerous times in this thread, if that were the case, free will is completely gone at that point. We would all be "programmed" to behave in a certain way, completely limiting our ability to actually have a genuine, meaningful relationship with our Creator, and with each other.

If we are all "programmed" to do what is good and right, true love amongst people inherently cannot exist, nor can it exist with our Creator. It is all robotic, and therefore, meaningless.

So to answer your question...no, that question/idea has never resonated with me as a believer.

You have no free will under Christianity.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

It isn't complicated at all. Let me condense it down for you.....you can go out right now and kill 10 people, give the same 10 a cheeseburger, etc. Your kids, no matter how great a parent you are, still have the choices to determine their own paths.

Again...study up. You will be enlightened.

Let me break it down for you:

God knows before you are born where you will end up. You have no free will. It's that simple to understand.

 

[SDC888]

You were already given the answer to that objection multiple times.

"Your" argument only makes sense if God is time dependent, whcih He is not.

 

[J_Dee]

I don’t live in the Paddock and rarely visit this thread. Apologies for the delayed response.

I'm legit curious MegaBlue -- what do you get from arguing with cultists? You know you'd sooner succeed at teaching the giraffes at Knoxville Zoo calculus or changing the course of the Kentucky River with nothing but a plastic spoon, right?

I sure as heck don't always spend my time wisely, but "debates" about the rationality of magic are the absolute peak of pointlessness. There are countless better ways to spend what precious little time we've lucked into than trying to change the minds of people whose minds can't outgrow the crutch of religion.

We are at the very beginning of time for the human race. It is not unreasonable that we grapple with problems. There are tens of thousands of years in the future. Our responsibility is to do what we can, learn what we can, improve the solutions and pass them on. It is our responsibility to leave the men of the future a free hand. In the impetuous youth of humanity, we can make grave errors that can stunt our growth for a long time. This we will do if we say we have the answers now, so young and ignorant; if we suppress all discussion, all criticism, saying, ‘This is it, boys, man is saved!’ and thus doom man for a long time to the chains of authority, confined to the limits of our present imagination. It has been done so many times before.

It is our responsibility as scientists, knowing the great progress and great value of a satisfactory philosophy of ignorance, the great progress that is the fruit of freedom of thought, to proclaim the value of this freedom, to teach how doubt is not to be feared but welcomed and discussed, and to demand this freedom as our duty to all coming generations.

-- Richard Feynman

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I'm legit curious MegaBlue -- what do you get from arguing with cultists? You know you'd sooner succeed at teaching the giraffes at Knoxville Zoo calculus or changing the course of the Kentucky River with nothing but a plastic spoon, right?

I sure as heck don't always spend my time wisely, but "debates" about the rationality of magic are the absolute peak of pointlessness. There are countless better ways to spend what precious little time we've lucked into than trying to change the minds of people whose minds can't outgrow the crutch of religion.

I am sorry that in the short time you have here that you feel you have been harmed in any manner that would compel you to speak so disparagingly about others whom you admit you are not required interaction. But, I appreciate the confidence you have that the believers here will remain faithful to the Creator. Thank you.

 

[mcnicKY91]

You have no free will under Christianity.

Let me break it down for you:

God knows before you are born where you will end up. You have no free will. It's that simple to understand.

Knowing what will happen to someone does not mean that person does not have free will. Two completely different things, dude.

I know when my children are about to lie to me. I know how they will do it...I know what they will say, I know how they will act. Because I know, does that mean they no longer have free will?

Just because God is all knowing and knows what will happen 5 min from now, 5 years from now, does not mean He has limited our free will.

This is actually a very easy concept to understand. If God was not outside time, He wouldn't be God...no one would worship Him.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

Knowing what will happen to someone does not mean that person does not have free will. Two completely different things, dude.

I know when my children are about to lie to me. I know how they will do it...I know what they will say, I know how they will act. Because I know, does that mean they no longer have free will?

Just because God is all knowing and knows what will happen 5 min from now, 5 years from now, does not mean He has limited our free will.

This is actually a very easy concept to understand. If God was not outside time, He wouldn't be God...no one would worship Him.

If God knows I am going to burn in Hell (loving, yeah right), then no, I never actually had a choice. I was born and bound and never had a chance. Therefore our choices don't matter when it comes to eternity. God could of course remove evil and all of the terrible things from this world, but I guess it would get boring not seeing people killed, abused, in agony, etc.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If God knows I am going to burn in Hell (loving, yeah right), then no, I never actually had a choice.

Wrong.

 

[mcnicKY91]

If God knows I am going to burn in Hell (loving, yeah right), then no, I never actually had a choice. I was born and bound and never had a chance. Therefore our choices don't matter when it comes to eternity. God could of course remove evil and all of the terrible things from this world, but I guess it would get boring not seeing people killed, abused, in agony, etc.

Dude..here is your chance, literally right now.

All you have to do is repent of your sin, place your faith in the fact that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and you will have a relationship with God.

It is literally your choice right now. You can't say God is keeping you bound. You have the choice right now. No one has a gun to your head, no one is forcing you one way or the other. You make the choice.

 

[maroon79]

Evolution is laughable former atheist

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Dude..here is your chance, literally right now.

All you have to do is repent of your sin, place your faith in the fact that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and you will have a relationship with God.

It is literally your choice right now. You can't say God is keeping you bound. You have the choice right now. No one has a gun to your head, no one is forcing you one way or the other. You make the choice.

How effed up is that? Your god created a torture chamber. Your god then tells you that you are free to believe in him or not. Then he tells you that if you use your free will to not believe, you go to the torture chamber, and that it will be your fault.

And this is not only OK with you, but you think your god is a loving god.

Have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome?

 

[IdaCat]

I don’t live in the Paddock and rarely visit this thread. Apologies for the delayed response.

You keep referring to atheism as a religion (never knew of services and official holy texts or rituals or anything resembling an organized religion), and insinuated atheism was a “pRoGrEsSiVe” religion, which has political connotations. Don’t act naive.

You interjected a meme about trans people in a discussion about if there is a god.

Your posting history amounts to all of society’s ills are because of woke/left/liberal/progressive/Marxist/communist/socialist used interchangeably. Just calling a spade a spade.

Where did I say anything about Atheism or call it a religion? Nowhere. A case can be made using the traditional or "strong Atheism" definition being faith based, but I've not raised that point or implied it in anything I've said. You can look that up if you dkwtf I'm talking about.

You seem to be conflating Atheism with pRoGrEsSiVe ideology and calling that bastardization "Atheism". That's nonsense. Maybe that's just your idea, but it's certainly not mine.

I likened pRoGrEsSiVe ideology to a religion and I'm far from the first to do so. Some similarities: it has a divisive set of irrational doctrines that must be faithfully followed without question or else the nonconformist faces shunning/cancellation and personal destruction. Actually much worse than any modern version of Christianity I've ever seen.

It has guilt, chosen people, a kind of "sin and redemption", sacred "moral" codes, sacred speech (and the unspeakable), a utopian vision of final victory, and a devastating apocalyptic "hell" for failure meeting it's goals. It's a GD cult. Pages could be written on the details.

I'm not alone in thinking that progressive ideology is a malignant cancer. Left leaning "New Atheists" Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and many other highly accomplished, publicized, and respected intellectuals in the so-called freethinking community agree ... and have suffered the wrath of the leftist mob when speaking against it while coming to the defense of science, reason, and basic human ethics that support a healthy society.

If one of your motivations for arguing in these religious threads is to reveal and eliminate irrational thinking from society, yet you ignore, or worse yet, accept or even believe the tenets of this currently most active and proliferating mind virus called progressive wokism, then you should take some time to educate yourself, examine your biases, and adjust your priorities, imo. And that is my point.

 

[jeffky]

The God I believe in is a spirit a spirit has no flesh and bones nothing you can visualize so only through faith you can approach this spirit we make out our own salvation with fear and trembling so if your a atheist or agnostic that's your salvation and I don't judge in my faith I believe the first sign of wisdom is the fear of God

 

[J_Dee]

I am sorry that in the short time you have here that you feel you have been harmed in any manner that would compel you to speak so disparagingly about others whom you admit you are not required interaction. But, I appreciate the confidence you have that the believers here will remain faithful to the Creator. Thank you.

I apologize for my dickhead post. My students had me in a pretty vile mood this morning, which isn't common.

You guys do you. Worship the God of Abraham, Pangu, Zeus, Brahman, Jasagnan, Waheguru, Nzambi a Mpungu, Vishnu, Sidapa Mapu, whatever, it's all good.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Sinners Relieved To Learn Jesus Gets Them And They Don't Have To Repent Or Change Their Lives In Any Way

 

[cole854]

Sinners Relieved To Learn Jesus Gets Them And They Don't Have To Repent Or Change Their Lives In Any Way

If you have opposing and false beliefs, fine, but don't mock those who do w/ this juvenile ignorance.

 

[TCurtis75]

If you have opposing and false beliefs, fine, but don't mock those who do w/ this juvenile ignorance.

Your beliefs are just as likely false. You should’ve just stopped with opposing. “Christians” just can’t keep from acting like their beliefs are the true beliefs. The above post proves it.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

God condemns the world to hell because someone ate an apple. Anyone see the issue here?

 

[MidseasonTweak]

If you have opposing and false beliefs, fine, but don't mock those who do w/ this juvenile ignorance.

What makes Christianity true and Islam not?

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Your beliefs are just as likely false. You should’ve just stopped with opposing. “Christians” just can’t keep from acting like their beliefs are the true beliefs. The above post proves it.

But no comment for those who mock others’ sincerely held beliefs. Nothing like acting like your beliefs are true by mocking others’ beliefs. Those darn atheists. 😂