POLL: Is there a God ??

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I have experience reading it as a nonbeliever, then later as a believer.

It's my wish for you, any of you, to experience the latter. Then you will know.

But, again, (your words) it’s only intelligible to the believer. None of it makes any sense to me. How am I supposed to take it seriously when it’s so ludicrous? And if I can’t take it seriously then how will I ever believe any of it?

Probably time for another major re-write.

 

[SDC888]

But, again, (your words) it’s only intelligible to the believer. None of it makes any sense to me.

Yes.

How am I supposed to take it seriously when it’s so ludicrous? And if I can’t take it seriously then how will I ever believe any of it?

Probably time for another major re-write.

No need for a "re-write," major or minor.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Yes.


No need for a "re-write," major or minor.

So then the New Revised Standard Version which is a re-write of the Revised Standard Version which was a re-write from the American Revised Standard which was based on The King James Version was the final re-write? Good to know. The final FINAL version, if you will.

What they should do is have it written precisely, and word-for-word, from the original texts written by the eye witnesses of the time.

 

[megablue]

Religion hasn't evolved along with science over the ages which makes it outdated and many people like yourself have come to that realization. What most people do not know is that science has been and continues to explore metaphysical matters such as life after death. If you are interesting in knowing about what is being discovered I suggest checking out the work of Dr. Bruce Grayson at the University of Virginia. Here is a link to a conference where he was one of four speakers. He speaks in the area of NDAs (near death experiences) which he has studied in depth. Other speakers hit on other topics such as reincarnation. He has several other interviews on youtube:

View embedded media

That was very interesting and informative. In keeping with the question IS DEATH FINAL?, here is a lengthy, but highly-quality debate that features two (2) NO and two (2) YES positions. This debate is the kind of fascinating intelligence-challenge that I only wish I were smart enough to participate in, but I love to observe them. This thread was created in that frame of mind ... to simply think, ponder, discuss, etc... the biggest questions of life. Anyone who has the time and the interest, will find this debate absolutely fascinating, if not convincing in any particulate direction. It includes Sean Carroll, who I always find particularly interesting in his ability to communicate such complicated issues to mere laymen, like myself. If you watch it, ENJOY THE DEBATE !!!

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I was raised in and was deeply-immersed in a Christian tradition that maintained that doubting your faith was necessary to strengthen it. To question and discuss deep questions of the existence of a supernatural being by rational human beings seems only “natural” to me, in addition to being very interesting, if not fascinating … most certainly, stimulating.
I’ve never sensed honest discussions to be antagonistic or proselytizing. It is all part of due diligence and the process for seeking the truth.

So, while I love Crowded House, what was the purpose of injecting Neil Finn’s beliefs into the discussion? Just curious.

 

[megablue]

So, while I love Crowded House, what was the purpose of injecting Neil Finn’s beliefs into the discussion? Just curious.

Like you, I am a HUGE Crowded House fan and consider Neil Finn to be one of the best all-time songwriters. I've been to Chicago only twice in my life, both times to see Crowded House at House of Blues. Furthermore, I've been to the Ryman Theater twice in my life, both times to see Crowded House. I have great respect for the Finn brothers' (both Neil & Tim) lyrics and the thinking behind them. Perhaps it was lost on many and foolish of me to share the video, but I hear the deep thought he has put in the very question of this thread in the song. I was hoping people might relate, if they took the time to think about what Neil was saying. His willingness to document this by sharing it with the world earns my respect, along with the notion that he sees "God" in everyone, even when he is unsure who/what/if god exists. It is obvious to me, with the opening lyric, that Neil has struggled with the issue throughout his adult life. Lastly, it seems probably to me that his heavily-Catholic upbringing, education and tradition underlay his belief system and the questions that he has wrestled with during his lifetime. That matches my own personal upbringing ... and I thought others might relate.

It seemed appropriate to include the song, taken in overall context. If not, I apologize.
Thanks for the question and it's cool to know you appreciate this vastly under-rated and under-appreciated band.

While on the topic of music, I was a visitor and participant in a Jefferson Starship (Kantner version) message board on which Paul Kantner was the moderator. During an exchange, a fan made the comment that "life is a path" and seemed to infer what most generally think from a religious perspective. Kanter simply responded "...so is a path" ... which I found to be a profound and honest comment. I've never forgotten it. I interject this only because it is an example of another musician who included personal and private thoughts/beliefs in discussions with fans. I really respected and appreciated that. After all, that is what we're doing here among ourselves ...

One last thing ... if you appreciate the context and Neil Finn, I won't post it, but you might listen to "People Are Like Suns" from the CH album TIME ON EARTH. Just sayin' ... cya

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Like you, I am a HUGE Crowded House fan and consider Neil Finn to be one of the best all-time songwriters. I've been to Chicago only twice in my life, both times to see Crowded House at House of Blues. Furthermore, I've been to the Ryman Theater twice in my life, both times to see Crowded House. I have great respect for the Finn brothers' (both Neil & Tim) lyrics and the thinking behind them. Perhaps it was lost on many and foolish of me to share the video, but I hear the deep thought he has put in the very question of this thread in the song. I was hoping people might relate, if they took the time to think about what Neil was saying. His willingness to document this by sharing it with the world earns my respect, along with the notion that he sees "God" in everyone, even when he is unsure who/what/if god exists. It is obvious to me, with the opening lyric, that Neil has struggled with the issue throughout his adult life. Lastly, it seems probably to me that his heavily-Catholic upbringing, education and tradition underlay his belief system and the questions that he has wrestled with during his lifetime. That matches my own personal upbringing ... and I thought others might relate.

It seemed appropriate to include the song, taken in overall context. If not, I apologize.
Thanks for the question and it's cool to know you appreciate this vastly under-rated and under-appreciated band.

While on the topic of music, I was a visitor and participant in a Jefferson Starship (Kantner version) message board on which Paul Kantner was the moderator. During an exchange, a fan made the comment that "life is a path" and seemed to infer what most generally think from a religious perspective. Kanter simply responded "...so is a path" ... which I found to be a profound and honest comment. I've never forgotten it. I interject this only because it is an example of another musician who included personal and private thoughts/beliefs in discussions with fans. I really respected and appreciated that. After all, that is what we're doing here among ourselves ...

One last thing ... if you appreciate the context and Neil Finn, I won't post it, but you might listen to "People Are Like Suns" from the CH album TIME ON EARTH. Just sayin' ... cya

I am a fan of Split Enz, Crowded House, and, to a lesser extent, Tim Finn’s solo projects. I saw the Finn Bros in concert about 10 years ago in Louisville. The show was a bit disappointing, to be honest.

 

[megablue]

I am a fan of Split Enz, Crowded House, and, to a lesser extent, Tim Finn’s solo projects. I saw the Finn Bros in concert about 10 years ago in Louisville. The show was a bit disappointing, to be honest.

Damn !! I was that show at Headliners (02/25/2005), after standing in line for almost two (2) hours. I really enjoyed meeting and talking with fans who flew in from as far away as Dallas and Toronto. I was up front, right on the lip of the stage, and that show to this day remains as one of my favorite concert experiences of all-time. I was particularly excited to hear "Message to my Girl" ... one of my favorites in the Finn catalogue. Also, I saw Tim Finn perform a solo show on 02/16/2008 at a Catholic church in Louisville (St. Francis ??). It was pretty good, but far more a mellow affair. especially when sitting in pews. Lastly, I had tickets for CH in Dayton last year, but the tour was cancelled because his drummer son hurt his back ... I was really bummed about that, but ended up seeing Neil and Liam at Bourbon and Beyond. They were excellent, especially with lifetime fan Eddie Vedder joining them for a couple of tunes. Again, I was up close, right on the rail, as I had VIP tickets. btw ... Molly Tuttle was there ... what an extreme talent and very cool person !!

CH will be down at the Ryman on the current tour. Not sure, but I may be there ... we'll see.

 

[BC_Wader]

People are free to believe what they want. For me, I think it's impossible to look around and think all this beauty came from nothing. I believe we are intelligently designed by a Supreme Creator.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

People are free to believe what they want. For me, I think it's impossible to look around and think all this beauty came from nothing. I believe we are intelligently designed by a Supreme Creator.

Have you ever looked around at the chaos? Earthquakes, wildfires, floods, volcanos, droughts, plagues, tornados? Is that the work of a supreme creator? Or how about disease, cancer, heart attacks, stroke, birth defects, miscarriages? Supreme creator also? Shoddy work for an intelligent supreme being, if’n you ask me.

And which supreme being? There have been lots of them. Even the buybull acknowledges that there are lots of them.

 

[megablue]

Have you ever looked around at the chaos? Earthquakes, wildfires, floods, volcanos, droughts, plagues, tornados? Is that the work of a supreme creator? Or how about disease, cancer, heart attacks, stroke, birth defects, miscarriages? Supreme creator also? Shoddy work for an intelligent supreme being, if’n you ask me.

And which supreme being? There have been lots of them. Even the buybull acknowledges that there are lots of them.

I understand and appreciate your sentiment.

Another such quandry would immediately arise upon a visit to the terminal cancer ward of a children’s hospital. It begs the question, if god is omnipotent, why does he allow this to happen to innocent children? Especially, when their parents are praying harder than ever for their child to be cured …

To my view, if he is powerful enough to prevent their death and suffering, and chooses not to, he is mean and evil. If he is powerless to do anything, then he is not God, and therefore there is no God.

 

[H. Lecter]

But you’re better right. If there were a God he would be more like you ___ maybe is you?

I’m certainly not as mean and cruel as he is. But no I’m not a god nor do I claim to be. If I were we’d all be living the dream buddy. No kids would be abused and no one would be hungry, etc. etc.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I understand and appreciate your sentiment.

Another such quandry would immediately arise upon a visit to the terminal cancer ward of a children’s hospital. It begs the question, if god is omnipotent, why does he allow this to happen to innocent children? Especially, when their parents are praying harder than ever for their child to be cured …

To my view, if he is powerful enough to prevent their death and suffering, and chooses not to, he is mean and evil. If he is powerless to do anything, then he is not God, therefore there is no God.

So, life eternal with no tears or pain is the only way you can believe in a loving God. Sounds like a biblical promise.

I guess we could imagine a world where as long as people were sincerely praying for you, you would never die. In that instance, God would be more your tool than your King. Trust and love would be secondary, if at all. Nothing in the Bible (yeah, I know you like Ohio’s play on that word, but I fail to see how that resembles the well-intentioned author of this thread who wants a reasonable discussion) ever suggests that about God.

You want a god that does not require trust, but simply gives you everything you think a perfect creation would offer. Being the curious intellectual, you must admit that if God does exist, you can suggest all of the world scenarios you deem the better creation, but you cannot find a quark, let alone create one. The idea that God does not fit your ideal for a god is not evidence at all of His nonexistence. In fact, you must admit that if God exists, your criticisms are pretty pathetic. The created telling God how He got it wrong. Regardless, the idea that you believe you could do it better is not evidence against the existence of God.

 

[megablue]

So, life eternal with no tears or pain is the only way you can believe in a loving God. Sounds like a biblical promise.

I guess we could imagine a world where as long as people were sincerely praying for you, you would never die. In that instance, God would be more your tool than your King. Trust and love would be secondary, if at all. Nothing in the Bible (yeah, I know you like Ohio’s play on that word, but I fail to see how that resembles the well-intentioned author of this thread who wants a reasonable discussion) ever suggests that about God.

You want a god that does not require trust, but simply gives you everything you think a perfect creation would offer. Being the curious intellectual, you must admit that if God does exist, you can suggest all of the world scenarios you deem the better creation, but you cannot find a quark, let alone create one. The idea that God does not fit your ideal for a god is not evidence at all of His nonexistence. In fact, you must admit that if God exists, your criticisms are pretty pathetic. The created telling God how He got it wrong. Regardless, the idea that you believe you could do it better is not evidence against the existence of God.

Not sure I totally understand all your points, but my thoughts on prayer would be if parents are praying to a loving God for their to child to be saved and it suffers and dies, God’s answer would’ve been no. To me, that is mean, if not evil.
I struggle to understand how a loving God could do that. Throughout my upbringing, I was taught this situation is yet another mystery, but when good things happen, God is great to make (or allow) them to happen. As I moved along in my life, after much thought and reflection, I found that I could not reconcile
these situations, entered a period of spiritual sobriety and eventually lost my faith.

 

[CaptainBoogerBuns]

I grew up CoC so very conservative. Now I'm a mid 30s adult and question everything. I like to think there is a God but then I know I'm screwed if so. I went wild in my 20s after the conservative upbringing. I can't even tell u how many women I hooked up with (low standards so not claiming I slayed a lot of hotties). I've been with same woman almost 6 years and married 3.5 with a 4.5 year old son but don't go to church or anything.

For those that do believe and actually love a legit life of the faith there is no harm in it. If they are wrong so what but if right oh snap for the ret of us I suppose. Who is to say it's not Allah that is real or how do we reconcile the Jewish vs Christian debate? It's fascinating bit so many questions.

I did my time in the CoC, too. The “antis”, tbh.

 

[SDC888]

I grew up CoC so very conservative. Now I'm a mid 30s adult and question everything. I like to think there is a God but then I know I'm screwed if so. I went wild in my 20s after the conservative upbringing. I can't even tell u how many women I hooked up with (low standards so not claiming I slayed a lot of hotties). I've been with same woman almost 6 years and married 3.5 with a 4.5 year old son but don't go to church or anything.

For those that do believe and actually love a legit life of the faith there is no harm in it. If they are wrong so what but if right oh snap for the ret of us I suppose. Who is to say it's not Allah that is real or how do we reconcile the Jewish vs Christian debate? It's fascinating bit so many questions.

I think there's always hope until your last breath. I grew up as an atheist.

As to who's to say which "god," He is. Jesus is qualitatively different to other "gods."

There is no God but Him.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

No, and I'll just leave it at that.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

So then the New Revised Standard Version which is a re-write of the Revised Standard Version which was a re-write from the American Revised Standard which was based on The King James Version was the final re-write? Good to know. The final FINAL version, if you will.

What they should do is have it written precisely, and word-for-word, from the original texts written by the eye witnesses of the time.

But word meaning change. Those "rewrites" you refer to are more like minor adjustments.

 

[megablue]

I think there's always hope until your last breath. I grew up as an atheist.

As to who's to say which "god," He is. Jesus is qualitatively different to other "gods."

There is no God but Him.

Just curious…have you explored other faiths besides Christian? I actively participated in an interfaith group, Catholics, Jews, plus Atheists, for quite a while. We mutually-explored each tradition … A sader, mass, presentation at Universalist church, etc … it was very enlightening and educational, obviously.
Everyone involved were super-open to the vibe. I really liked it, but nothing was convincing or confirmatory. I was a practicing Catholic at this time in my life.

 

[megablue]

People are free to believe what they want. For me, I think it's impossible to look around and think all this beauty came from nothing. I believe we are intelligently designed by a Supreme Creator.

Of course, I am certainly familiar with this common belief, but what would a universe look like if there were no God ??
How would it differ from the current universe and what we see and live in now ??

 

[SDC888]

Just curious…have you explored other faiths besides Christian? I actively participated in an interfaith group, Christians, Jews, plus Atheists, for quite a while. We mutually-explored each tradition … A sader, mass, presentation at Universalist church, etc … it was very enlightening and educational, obviously.
Everyone involved were super-open to the vibe. I really liked it, but nothing was convincing or confirmatory.

Explored? No.

But I'm well read enough in them, philosophy in general. For example, I know where Sam Harris got his anti-free will argument that left you and others so enamored. It's nothing new and it's not his, llike most anything he states. He's rsimply repackaging for a modern audience the ideas of a man who allegedly lived some 2500 years ago in the Indus river valley.

You definitely have freewill and what you choose matters.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

But word meaning change. Those "rewrites" you refer to are more like minor adjustments.

How many of the earliest re-writes were actually translating from one language to another? And how accurate were those translations? And how many major changes were made when King James ordered his revision? Any books of the Bible omitted and subsequently lost during the King James revision? And where are the original texts? And when did the stories get written down? Was it as it happened? Or was it several generations after the character known as jesus was supposedly tortured and killed?

Enquiring minds need to know.

 

[megablue]

Explored? No.

But I'm well read enough in them, philosophy in general. For example, I know where Sam Harris got his anti-free will argument that left you and others so enamored. It's nothing new and it's not his, llike most anything he states. He's rsimply repackaging for a modern audience the ideas of a man who allegedly lived some 2500 years ago in the Indus river valley.

You definitely have freewill and what you choose matters.

For years, I had questioned the origins of free will before I ever heard of Sam Harris and his research in neuroscience.

Even in grade school, attending inner city parochial school, being on the playground and seeing hoboes in the area, ravaging through the dumpster, etc … I wondered why/how they ended up this way ?? I knew they probably were not happy. Also, I wondered why some people were kind and others were evil ?? As I moved along, these kind of thoughts never went away, but I had no conclusion for the longest while. Eventually, I realized that I didn’t really know why I never ended up that way. What is the real difference the guys sleeping on the sidewalks of NYC and me, as I travelled to NYC frequently for work ?? At stop signs and street-corners, what is the reason that guy is holding a cardboard sign and I’m sitting in an air-conditioned car waiting to move ?? I asked myself these very questions, realizing that I could’ve been them and they could’ve been me. Honest reflection led me to conclude that I essentially became me out of pure luck and randomness. I was me, not because I made a conscious choice to be me. Only in recent years, through YouTube surfing, did I learn of Sam Harris, the neuroscientist, and his position on free will. It resonated with me and confirmed my thinking. I try, not always successfully, to keep this in mind with everyone I encounter … especially negative or mean folks. I try hard to be “chill” at all times …

I have the illusion of free will … that is my conclusion. I feel certain of it.

Our Brains Make Up Our Minds Before We Know It

In the bustle of our daily lives, many of our choices are made without any conscious thought.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Not sure I totally understand all your points, but my thoughts on prayer would be if parents are praying to a loving God for their to child to be saved and it suffers and dies, God’s answer would’ve been no. To me, that is mean, if not evil.
I struggle to understand how a loving God could do that. Throughout my upbringing, I was taught this situation is yet another mystery, but when good things happen, God is great to make (or allow) them to happen. As I moved along in my life, after much thought and reflection, I found that I could not reconcile
these situations, entered a period of spiritual sobriety and eventually lost my faith.

I understand your point that if you were God, you would step in and call that loving. Dying for our sinfulness and promising an eternity where the God of the universe wipes away every tear and continues to serve His creation does not cut it for you. You would do it differently. Which is the very nature of original sin. You got it figured out and believe the shop would run better with you as management. God gave us what you asked for.

But, again, your expectation is not evidence. The idea that you don’t get it means it’s evil is nonsensical. The fact that you believe a loving God would do it differently is just not evidence against God, despite the fact that you have made it such in your own life.

In the Bible, as you know, David prayed for his son, that he would live. He prayed with all sincerity and passion. Yet, his son died. He then got it together and sat to eat. People wondered how the crap he could move past his grief. Because he knew he would see his son again and there was nothing more his prayers could offer, he rejoiced in the Lord. Yet, people remain critical that God does not meet our expectations today, despite His promise for tomorrow.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

How many of the earliest re-writes were actually translating from one language to another? And how accurate were those translations? And how many major changes were made when King James ordered his revision? Any books of the Bible omitted and subsequently lost during the King James revision? And where are the original texts? And when did the stories get written down? Was it as it happened? Or was it several generations after the character known as jesus was supposedly tortured and killed?

Enquiring minds need to know.

I dont have the energy for that debate but ill say again what I've said to you in the past. Even for a non-believer, you put an odd emphasis on attacking religion.

You have something going on that you need to resolve.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If course, I am certainly familiar with this common belief, but what would a universe look like if there were no God ??
How would it differ from the current universe and what we see and live in now ??

We have discussed this before. The universe without God is purely selfish. That does not mean that you don’t do good for others, but the only reason to do anything is because it serves you in some way. You define morality and what is good and what is bad to you. Your neighbor does the same. There is no universal morality. In fact, nothing really has meaning. Your neighbors behavior is just as valid and invalid as your own.

Atheists who talk about serving future generations are just blowing hot air. If the earth evaporates and life is destroyed, the resulting form of matter is no better and no worse. It just is. Life does not make the universe better or worse. There is no true purpose. If you ascribe a purpose, it has no real value outside your own. It dies with you. Your legacy may persist in some writing or understanding, but so what. Your dust.

 

[megablue]

I understand your point that if you were God, you would step in and call that loving. Dying for our sinfulness and promising an eternity where the God of the universe wipes away every tear and continues to serve His creation does not cut it for you. You would do it differently. Which is the very nature of original sin. You got it figured out and believe the shop would run better with you as management. God gave us what you asked for.

But, again, your expectation is not evidence. The idea that you don’t get it means it’s evil is nonsensical. The fact that you believe a loving God would do it differently is just not evidence against God, despite the fact that you have made it such in your own life.

In the Bible, as you know, David prayed for his son, that he would live. He prayed with all sincerity and passion. Yet, his son died. He then got it together and sat to eat. People wondered how the crap he could move past his grief. Because he knew he would see his son again and there was nothing more his prayers could offer, he rejoiced in the Lord. Yet, people remain critical that God does not meet our expectations today, despite His promise for tomorrow.

I really do not know what else to say, but I appreciate your time in drafting replies.
Obviously, we have different opinions and we can certainly agree that is not going to change anytime soon, if ever. I wish you only the best … thanks, again.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I dont have the energy for that debate but ill say again what I've said to you in the past. Even for a non-believer, you put an odd emphasis on attacking religion.

You have something going on that you need to resolve.

I do need to resolve something. You’re right about that. I need someone to answer the questions I have. And I’m sorry that you think my questions are an attack. They’re just questions.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I do need to resolve something. You’re right about that. I need someone to answer the questions I have. And I’m sorry that you think my questions are an attack. They’re just questions.

Like I said, thats too much right now, maybe ill try this weekend. I had a catastrophic medical problem early Friday and almost bit the dust. Im too tired for that much effort right now.

 

[christophero]

It's funny that this turned into a Neil Finn/Crowded House discussion. I believe in God. And Neil Finn's first solo album, Try Whistling This, is one of the best albums ever. Just sublime. If you like Beatlesque pop this album is a must.

 

[megablue]

It's funny that this turned into a Neil Finn/Crowded House discussion. I believe in God. And Neil Finn's first solo album, Try Whistling This, is one of the best albums ever. Just sublime. If you like Beatlesque pop this album is a must.

Yes. That is an excellent album, I agree.
“Court and Spark” by Joni Mitchell is also sublime, imho.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I do need to resolve something. You’re right about that. I need someone to answer the questions I have. And I’m sorry that you think my questions are an attack. They’re just questions.

This is a generous response. But, when you reference the Bible the way you do, that is a petty attack on others’ faith. If you read the Gospels with a sincere desire for answers to the questions you have and did not find them for yourself, that does not make others’ revelations sourced in that word “bull.”

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Like I said, thats too much right now, maybe I’ll try this weekend. I had a catastrophic medical problem early Friday and almost bit the dust. Im too tired for that much effort right now.

Rest!

 

[Caveman Catfan]

It's funny that this turned into a Neil Finn/Crowded House discussion. I believe in God. And Neil Finn's first solo album, Try Whistling This, is one of the best albums ever. Just sublime. If you like Beatlesque pop this album is a must.

I admit that I don’t have that album. I will check it out.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Rest!

I'm sure trying, thanks

 

[Allcats08]

Do the agnostics and atheist in this thread believe in Jesus?

 

[Allcats08]

For years, I had questioned the origins of free will before I ever heard of Sam Harris and his research in neuroscience.

Even in grade school, attending inner city parochial school, being on the playground and seeing hoboes in the area, ravaging through the dumpster, etc … I wondered why/how they ended up this way ?? I knew they probably were not happy. Also, I wondered why some people were kind and others were evil ?? As I moved along, these kind of thoughts never went away, but I had no conclusion for the longest while. Eventually, I realized that I didn’t really know why I never ended up that way. What is the real difference the guys sleeping on the sidewalks of NYC and me, as I travelled to NYC frequently for work ?? At stop signs and street-corners, what is the reason that guy is holding a cardboard sign and I’m sitting in an air-conditioned car waiting to move ?? I asked myself these very questions, realizing that I could’ve been them and they could’ve been me. Honest reflection led me to conclude that I essentially became me out of pure luck and randomness. I was me, not because I made a conscious choice to be me. Only in recent years, through YouTube surfing, did I learn of Sam Harris, the neuroscientist, and his position on free will. It resonated with me and confirmed my thinking. I try, not always successfully, to keep this in mind with everyone I encounter … especially negative or mean folks. I try hard to be “chill” at all times …

I have the illusion of free will … that is my conclusion. I feel certain of it.

Our Brains Make Up Our Minds Before We Know It

In the bustle of our daily lives, many of our choices are made without any conscious thought.

www.psychologytoday.com

I think a lot of it also is that some people just meet the right person/persons and some people don’t. I have the job I do because I knew someone and I have what I have because my wife is a travel nurse lol.

 

[berniecarbo]

I'm just a dumb old country boy. I don't have the ability to think thoughts so deep as some of you, but are some suggesting that God should have created us as robots?

 

[SDC888]

For years, I had questioned the origins of free will before I ever heard of Sam Harris and his research in neuroscience.

Even in grade school, attending inner city parochial school, being on the playground and seeing hoboes in the area, ravaging through the dumpster, etc … I wondered why/how they ended up this way ?? I knew they probably were not happy. Also, I wondered why some people were kind and others were evil ?? As I moved along, these kind of thoughts never went away, but I had no conclusion for the longest while. Eventually, I realized that I didn’t really know why I never ended up that way. What is the real difference the guys sleeping on the sidewalks of NYC and me, as I travelled to NYC frequently for work ?? At stop signs and street-corners, what is the reason that guy is holding a cardboard sign and I’m sitting in an air-conditioned car waiting to move ?? I asked myself these very questions, realizing that I could’ve been them and they could’ve been me. Honest reflection led me to conclude that I essentially became me out of pure luck and randomness. I was me, not because I made a conscious choice to be me. Only in recent years, through YouTube surfing, did I learn of Sam Harris, the neuroscientist, and his position on free will. It resonated with me and confirmed my thinking. I try, not always successfully, to keep this in mind with everyone I encounter … especially negative or mean folks. I try hard to be “chill” at all times …

I have the illusion of free will … that is my conclusion. I feel certain of it.

Our Brains Make Up Our Minds Before We Know It

In the bustle of our daily lives, many of our choices are made without any conscious thought.

www.psychologytoday.com

Your conclusion itself is a manifestation of your freewill.

And science doesn't understand consciousness, not even on a rudimentary level. The biology of turning it on/off or the neurology of signals is not the same thing as what it means to be conscious.

 

[Ron Mehico]

I understand your point that if you were God, you would step in and call that loving. Dying for our sinfulness and promising an eternity where the God of the universe wipes away every tear and continues to serve His creation does not cut it for you. You would do it differently. Which is the very nature of original sin. You got it figured out and believe the shop would run better with you as management. God gave us what you asked for.

But, again, your expectation is not evidence. The idea that you don’t get it means it’s evil is nonsensical. The fact that you believe a loving God would do it differently is just not evidence against God, despite the fact that you have made it such in your own life.

In the Bible, as you know, David prayed for his son, that he would live. He prayed with all sincerity and passion. Yet, his son died. He then got it together and sat to eat. People wondered how the crap he could move past his grief. Because he knew he would see his son again and there was nothing more his prayers could offer, he rejoiced in the Lord. Yet, people remain critical that God does not meet our expectations today, despite His promise for tomorrow.

I found this to be a very insightful and articulate response. Thank you.