POLL: Is there a God ??

[megablue]

Just wait until you say something that someone else doesn't like. They'll say that there's no possible way that you've been on here for years and never knew about the Paddock so you have to be a former poster who got kicked off and came back with a different name. Just speaking from experience. Beware of some of these weirdos

I understand your sentiment. I've received snide comments like that occasionally, but I do not let it bother me. Most people here post in good spirit and enjoy honest exchanges of thoughts and ideas about Kentucky sports and also many other topics, as I've come to learn. I would posit that many people who post with animosity and antagonism do so without really understanding why or what their motivation is to be uncivil to total strangers, yet supposedly BBN brethren. It is simply a modern-day phenomenon of social media that we all deal with.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

If I believe there may be some type of force or energy behind everything, but don’t like organized religion or believe the Bible miracles and such, what does that make me?

You would be a Deist. A movement that came about during The Enlightenment period (1700s) in Europe where people believed in a “higher power and creator” but rejected affiliation with organized religion. Specifically the Catholic Church due to their suppression and horrific brutality over the previous centuries.

As the previous poster noted, many of our founding fathers, including Thomas Jefferson, had learned from key figures of The Enlightenment movement and considered themselves Deists. The most notable of them was Thomas Paine. A fascinating figure, if you’re ever inclined to read up on him.

 

[ZenCatFan73]

You would be a Deist. A movement that came about during The Enlightenment period (1700s) in Europe where people believed in a “higher power and creator” but rejected affiliation with organized religion. Specifically the Catholic Church due to their suppression and horrific brutality over the previous centuries.

As the previous poster noted, many of our founding fathers, including Thomas Jefferson, had learned from key figures of The Enlightenment movement and considered themselves Deists. The most notable of them was Thomas Paine. A fascinating figure, if you’re ever inclined to read up on him.

Thank you for this information. I’ll read up on Deism.

 

[roguemocha]

You may think you see it. I don’t see anything. Show me concrete proof. Not feelings. Not wishes. Not natural marvels that you attribute to your god. Not stories from a book that men wrote. Proof! Evidence! Something measurable!

But what if there is nothing humans can measure about a god?

 

[cole854]

Their local church is gigantic. I hate it. It’s a money grab. It’s all about the show. The pastor drives a Jag. He’s not a pastor. He’s an entertainer. If you drop less than $20 in the tray, you aren’t worthy of being there.

Pastors can't drive nice cars and there is a law from God against big churches? Or are you simply judging based on your dislike?

 

[JumperJack]

You may think you see it. I don’t see anything. Show me concrete proof. Not feelings. Not wishes. Not natural marvels that you attribute to your god. Not stories from a book that men wrote. Proof! Evidence! Something measurable!

Is everything that is real also measurable?

 

[CUJO_1970]

Tyson became a cosmologist because of Sagan, as you probably already know.

View embedded media

Is it appalling how ignorant Tyson is here regarding what the Bible says.

He gets the Bibles description of the creative epochs totally wrong. A "day" in the Bible can refer to different lengths of time ("in my father's day" etc) and even says plainly "A thousand years is as a day to God". There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that contradicts it being billions of years old.

He has no clue at all about what Revelation means or that it was written in prophetic language. The Bible is clear about when it presents something as a parable, such as The Good Samaritan or The Rich Man and Lazarus - something symbolic, which the book of Revelation points out in it's very first verse that it's "presented in signs"...the "stars falling to earth" that Tyson mocks is not literal either as he implies. It's a reference to angels being cast out of heaven to the earth (demons).

Bible writers were inspired to write quarantine and dietary health laws (etc) to protect the nation of Israel long before science even understood them. Bible writers described the shape of the earth and it's placement relative to the sun and moon before science understood it. The bible described the earth's water cycle centuries before science understood it. And yet, the bible is not and was never meant to be a science textbook.

And no - nobody that actually knows what they are talking about is scared of Carl Sagan, lol.

 

[CUJO_1970]

Pastors can't drive nice cars and there is a law from God against big churches? Or are you simply judging based on your dislike?

Ministers that make their own money on their own time, sure thing. Ministers that are paid and enrich themselves at the expense of their "flock" or whatever are the worst.

There should be no paid clergy, ever.

"You received freely, give freely"
"The son of man has no place to lay his head"

First century Christians like Paul worked diligently taking care of themselves monetarily, specifically not to be a burden to others - Paul was a tent maker among other things, Luke a physician, other disciples and apostles were fishermen, etc.

As far as "big churches" - lol please. Most everyone knows what that nonsense is about.

 

[SDC888]

And no - nobody that actually knows what they are talking about is scared of Carl Sagan, lol.

Even if they don't, the Follower of Christ has nothing to fear from the scientist nor the philosopjher, or their "arguments."

 

[Deeeefense]

It could be that fewer responded in the poll than I anticipated because I did not include "maybe" or "unsure" as a choices. Perhaps I should've titled the poll: "Do you believe in God?" ... that way, the answers could only be YES or NO. For myself, I am not 100% sure there is no god, but I am absolutely 100% sure that I do not believe there is ... I see no reason to. At least, not yet ...

I didn't vote because I think the best answer would be "unknowable", or "unknown" as some other members have expressed in the thread.

 

[megablue]

I didn't vote because I think the best answer would be "unknowable", or "unknown" as some other members have expressed in the thread.

If I’d have included unknown, unknowable, maybe, unsure, etc. in the answer choices, as perhaps I should’ve, my sense is there may have been far more total votes cast and the uncertainty choice may have been the most-selected. In light of all the religiosity and belief throughout the world, a high degree of potential uncertainty would be interesting to ponder in and of itself. I guess it might have illustrated the difference between belief and knowledge.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[SDC888]

If I’d have included unknown, unknowable, maybe, unsure, etc. in the answer choices, as perhaps I should’ve, my sense is there may have been far more total votes cast and the uncertainty choice may have been the most-chosen. In light of all the religiosity and belief throughout the world, a high degree of potential uncertainty would be interesting to ponder in and of itself. I guess it might have illustrated the difference between belief and knowledge.
Thanks for the reply.

It differs by the means of knowing.

 

[megablue]

It differs by the means of knowing.

I am not sure I understand your point.
Please elaborate.
Thanks for the interest and reply.

 

[justa]

An adulterer commenting in a religion thread. How on brand.

 

[Ron Mehico]

If I’d have included unknown, unknowable, maybe, unsure, etc. in the answer choices, as perhaps I should’ve, my sense is there may have been far more total votes cast and the uncertainty choice may have been the most-selected. In light of all the religiosity and belief throughout the world, a high degree of potential uncertainty would be interesting to ponder in and of itself. I guess it might have illustrated the difference between belief and knowledge.
Thanks for the reply.

I think this is closer to what I believe to be true - which is that agnostics, not atheists, are the growing silent majority. Outside of a couple posters here that post A LOT I have encountered or known very few strict or passionate atheists, and the ones I have encountered have suffered some sort of trauma. Agnostics are all over the place, however.

 

[SDC888]

I am not sure I understand your point.
Please elaborate.
Thanks for the interest and reply.

Atheist means without theism.
Agnostic means without knowledge.

Is it unknowable, or is it that the method you tried using insufficient?

 

[megablue]

For my money, WOODFACE is the greatest album of the 90's ...fourteen (14) great songs !! High-level art !!
In keeping with the spirit of this thread and for musical enjoyment, here is "There Goes God" ...

 

[yes_takeaside]

Well said! I'm stunned by the people on this board-and in political debate-who don't realize that the the burden of proof lies with whoever makes an assertion, not with whoever disagrees.

I was raised as a strict evangelical believing literally in every word of the King James Bible. As I've grown older, I struggle more and more with problems and fallacies within the Old and New Testament I won't go into those as it would take way too much time and space. The one real deal breaker is that how could any loving father-whose love, we're told is the greatest force for good in the Universe-condemn his children to not just punishment, but the most hideous torture we can possibly imagine-FOR ETERNITY. (Save the free will argument-my kids have made bad choices and I still don't think they should be horribly tortured forever).

The more I think about this question, the more the whole thing starts to unravel. Why create or allow a Satan, and give him dominion over the earth? Why not create a better model for basic human nature? Why not give out crystal clear instructions in every language that don't change from eon or to eon on how to avoid this eternal torture? Why would an omniscient being ever have any regrets for the very thing he created, or his own behavior? One would think such a being would have a great track record.

I really hope there's a God and I hope he or she or it, is an all loving, benevolent being capable of overlooking and forgiving my sins and bad choices, Still the physical evidence to the nature of such an entity is rather slim.

Let me see if I understand. Because the Christian God is not up to your standards of what a God would/should be like, he doesn’t exist?

Has there ever been a debunking of the existence of a man named Jesus?

The real question is was Jesus God? He claimed to be.

 

[yes_takeaside]

Christians god is a pretty mean and hateful. In fact quite a jerk if we’re honest

But you’re better right. If there were a God he would be more like you ___ maybe is you?

 

[megablue]

Let me see if I understand. Because the Christian God is not up to your standards of what a God would/should be like, he doesn’t exist?

Has there ever been a debunking of the existence of a man named Jesus?

The real question is was Jesus God? He claimed to be.

Two points in reply:
1) Although not a majority position, only a fringe one, of course, but there are definitely biblical scholars who claim that Jesus was not a historical figure, but was a mythical one.
Dr. Richard Carrier comes to mind …
2) There is also debate among biblical scholars regarding whether Jesus actually claimed to be God. This debate centers around the chronological origins of and vast inconsistencies in the gospels about what Jesus actually said.
Dr. Bart Ehrman is a well-known biblical scholar and historian, as follows in the video, but there are many others who feel as he does.

Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MadaboutBlue]

Let me see if I understand. Because the Christian God is not up to your standards of what a God would/should be like, he doesn’t exist?

Obviously you don't understand, because that's not what I said at all.

 

[SDC888]

Obviously you don't understand, because that's not what I said at all.

You can't understand the bible without being a believer.

Two points in reply:
1) Although not a majority position, only a fringe one, of course, but there are definitely biblical scholars who claim that Jesus was not a historical figure, but was a mythical one.
Dr. Richard Carrier comes to mind …
2) There is also debate among biblical scholars regarding whether Jesus actually claimed to be God. This debate centers around the chronological origins of and vast inconsistencies in the gospels about what Jesus actually said.
Dr. Bart Ehrman is a well-known biblical scholar and historian, as follows in the video, but there are many others who feel as he does.

View embedded media

Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can't understand the bible without being a believer.

 

[JonathanW]

I am an atheist. I do not know, with certainty, that a god does not exist, but I definitely do not believe one does. I would certainly accept and believe in god with demonstrable, verifiable proof and evidence of existence.

I can understand the skepticism. However, is it meaningful for someone to have to be proven something to believe it exists. Did your wife jump in front of a bullet shot at you (by her dad, lol) for you to believe she loved you? No, or at least I hope not. You just believed in her and her love for you, you "felt" her love for you.

But then beyond that, (most) Christians believe that believing or knowing that God exists is not enough. That even Satan knows/believes God exists. But that you have to take a step further and attempt to follow God, knowing that you aren't perfect and will stumble at times along the way.

I think there are a lot of people, a lot of Christians, and a lot of athiests, who try to hard to convince people they are right. The result? They antagonize and turn those they want to convince, even more against their beliefs.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

I don't believe there is one. I used to, but things don't add to me regarding a higher power anymore. I don't dislike people who believe in a god, though. Believe what you want.

 

[MadaboutBlue]

An adulterer commenting in a religion thread. How on brand.

Well now, just to be fair, according Jesus, all of us straight men are adulterers. That's right, if you look at a woman with "lust in your heart", that makes you just as bad as the guy that's sleeping with her out of wedlock. Maybe there are guys out there that have never looked at an extremely hot girls without at least a slight bit of longing..but I don't know those guys.

 

[megablue]

You can't understand the bible without being a believer.

You can't understand the bible without being a believer.

My reply has nothing to do with my understanding of or believe in the Bible. It was in response to statements about the historicity of Jesus and whether he actually claimed to be God. I just posted that there are on-going debates regarding those two (2) specific issues among biblical scholars. No different than other debates and research by scholars, historians and archeologists about things like whether Moses actually existed and whether there was a mass exodus of Jews out of Egypt, not to mention the origins of the New Testament, having been written decades after the supposed death and resurrection of Jesus. These debates and studies exist … that is my only point.

 

[SDC888]

My reply has nothing to do with my understanding of or believe in the Bible. It was in response to statements about the historicity of Jesus and whether he actually claimed to be God. I just posted that there are on-going debates regarding those two (2) specific issues among biblical scholars. No different than other debates and research by scholars, historians and archeologists about things like whether Moses actually existed and whether there was a mass exodus of Jews out of Egypt, not to mention the origins of the New Testament, having been written decades after the supposed death and resurrection of Jesus. These debates and studies exist … that is my only point.

I meant you in the general sense, not you specifically. I was talking about so-called biblical scholars. One cannot genuinely understand the bilbe without genuinely being a believer.

One can debate anything.

 

[megablue]

I can understand the skepticism. However, is it meaningful for someone to have to be proven something to believe it exists. Did your wife jump in front of a bullet shot at you (by her dad, lol) for you to believe she loved you? No, or at least I hope not. You just believed in her and her love for you, you "felt" her love for you.

But then beyond that, (most) Christians believe that believing or knowing that God exists is not enough. That even Satan knows/believes God exists. But that you have to take a step further and attempt to follow God, knowing that you aren't perfect and will stumble at times along the way.

I think there are a lot of people, a lot of Christians, and a lot of athiests, who try to hard to convince people they are right. The result? They antagonize and turn those they want to convince, even more against their beliefs.

I was raised in and was deeply-immersed in a Christian tradition that maintained that doubting your faith was necessary to strengthen it. To question and discuss deep questions of the existence of a supernatural being by rational human beings seems only “natural” to me, in addition to being very interesting, if not fascinating … most certainly, stimulating.
I’ve never sensed honest discussions to be antagonistic or proselytizing. It is all part of due diligence and the process for seeking the truth.

 

[megablue]

I meant you in the general sense, not you specifically. I was talking about so-called biblical scholars. One cannot genuinely understand the bilbe without genuinely being a believer.

One can debate anything.

I was under the impression that the original poster did not know that debates regarding Jesus’ historicity and his actual claims to be God existed. I was trying to make him aware that they do. That’s all …

 

[SDC888]

I was under the impression that the original poster did not know that debates regarding Jesus’ historicity and his actual claims to be God existed. I was trying to make him aware that they do. That’s all …

HIstory is always incomplete, written (guessing) by fallible men through the lenses of their own biases and prejudices.

The historicity of most ancients is in "question."

 

[JonathanW]

I was raised in and was deeply-immersed in a Christian tradition that maintained that doubting your faith was necessary to strengthen it. To question and discuss deep questions of the existence of a supernatural being by rational human beings seems only “natural” to me, in addition to being very interesting, if not fascinating.
I’ve never sensed honest discussions to be antagonistic or prosletizing. It is all part of due diligence and the process for seeking the truth.

I wasn't saying the discussion or questioning of one's faith (or lack of) is antagonizing. Just pointing out that some antagonize, giving a bad-name for the many of us who don't (antagonize) but may have similar beliefs.

 

[megablue]

Yes, we

HIstory is always incomplete, written (guessing) by fallible men through the lenses of their own biases and prejudices.

The historicity of most ancients is in "question."

Yes, we agree, and that includes the Bible.
Thanks for the exchange.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I meant you in the general sense, not you specifically. I was talking about so-called biblical scholars. One cannot genuinely understand the bilbe without genuinely being a believer.

One can debate anything.

Wait….what? Are you saying that we can’t understand words in a book unless we believe the story to be true?

 

[MGGA]

I've been chewing on this post for a while, so here goes.

I have considered myself a Christian since the time I understood what that was. Was baptized in my early teens, did the whole youth group thing, young adults, choir, etc. Still attend church in fact, although not as regularly as I have in the past.

Would not go so far as to say 'there is NO God' yet. The explanation of Deist is pretty close. There's something there. But who know what this thing we call God is? I believe the teachings that are attributed to Jesus are fundamentally what the world needs; i.e. love your neighbor as yourself, take care of each other, help the sick and the poor, etc.

Overall I have no problems with Christians, Muslims, Jewish folks, etc, but individually I can find flaws and hypocrisy within certain people that can sour things for the people they're supposed to lead.

The supernatural part of it all is what I'm finding issue with as I grow older and learn more about the world around me. The likelihood of a heaven, and especially a hell, just doesn't seem to jive with me any longer. The great reward of eternity seems like a nice idea but it's so foreign a concept to me now, I can't go for it. It's a nice thought and if my friends and family still believe it, then that's cool with me.

The Bible and the history of it being written, added to, and subtracted from, is in my opinion, flawed. We'll probably never know what was actually said and done in antiquity by the heroes and villains of the Bible, because it has been touched by regular ol' men. The same side-eye most of us would give the Book of Mormon can be applied to most any part of the Bible. A story about people that was passed down for generations, perhaps for good, maybe for bad. It could be the inspired Word of God, but it just as likely could be a way of molding the people and civilizations around the authors.

I don't believe religion is one big conspiracy. I know some friends who wholeheartedly believe the literal translation of the Bible and would go to their death defending it. I believe my pastor truly believes it all and is not out for a money grab.

I'm just not that person anymore. Do I wish I were? Maybe.

So why, Mr. MGGA, do you even go to church? I love the fellowship. I love corporate singing. I love the feeling I get when someone who truly believes gives their testimony or gets baptized. I love how the act of being a Christ follower has changed people's life completely for the better.

Anonymously posting this on a sports message board under a made up name is not brave of me. I'm a coward and a hypocrite and I own it. So I'll go along to get along. For the most part (read that again) Christ's teachings are solid and can make the world a better place. That's where I am.

I don't know what's going to happen when I die. I'm just pretty sure it suddenly won't be my problem anymore.

It's also pretty damn cool that I can write these things without fear of being truly persecuted either for believing or not. Thanks, the USA, and Go Cats.

 

[SDC888]

Wait….what? Are you saying that we can’t understand words in a book unless we believe the story to be true?

Yes, the word of God is only intelligible as such to the believer.

No, I'm not saying you cannot understand a book unless you believe the story to be true.

 

[SDC888]

Yes, we agree, and that includes the Bible.

Yes, but no.

 

[megablue]

I've been chewing on this post for a while, so here goes.

I have considered myself a Christian since the time I understood what that was. Was baptized in my early teens, did the whole youth group thing, young adults, choir, etc. Still attend church in fact, although not as regularly as I have in the past.

Would not go so far as to say 'there is NO God' yet. The explanation of Deist is pretty close. There's something there. But who know what this thing we call God is? I believe the teachings that are attributed to Jesus are fundamentally what the world needs; i.e. love your neighbor as yourself, take care of each other, help the sick and the poor, etc.

Overall I have no problems with Christians, Muslims, Jewish folks, etc, but individually I can find flaws and hypocrisy within certain people that can sour things for the people they're supposed to lead.

The supernatural part of it all is what I'm finding issue with as I grow older and learn more about the world around me. The likelihood of a heaven, and especially a hell, just doesn't seem to jive with me any longer. The great reward of eternity seems like a nice idea but it's so foreign a concept to me now, I can't go for it. It's a nice thought and if my friends and family still believe it, then that's cool with me.

The Bible and the history of it being written, added to, and subtracted from, is in my opinion, flawed. We'll probably never know what was actually said and done in antiquity by the heroes and villains of the Bible, because it has been touched by regular ol' men. The same side-eye most of us would give the Book of Mormon can be applied to most any part of the Bible. A story about people that was passed down for generations, perhaps for good, maybe for bad. It could be the inspired Word of God, but it just as likely could be a way of molding the people and civilizations around the authors.

I don't believe religion is one big conspiracy. I know some friends who wholeheartedly believe the literal translation of the Bible and would go to their death defending it. I believe my pastor truly believes it all and is not out for a money grab.

I'm just not that person anymore. Do I wish I were? Maybe.

So why, Mr. MGGA, do you even go to church? I love the fellowship. I love corporate singing. I love the feeling I get when someone who truly believes gives their testimony or gets baptized. I love how the act of being a Christ follower has changed people's life completely for the better.

Anonymously posting this on a sports message board under a made up name is not brave of me. I'm a coward and a hypocrite and I own it. So I'll go along to get along. For the most part (read that again) Christ's teachings are solid and can make the world a better place. That's where I am.

I don't know what's going to happen when I die. I'm just pretty sure it suddenly won't be my problem anymore.

It's also pretty damn cool that I can write these things without fear of being truly persecuted either for believing or not. Thanks, the USA, and Go Cats.

That is one of the most honest and heart-felt posts I’ve read on this or any board. Personally, I relate to most everything you posted, except actually going to church and attending services. As I read your post, I thought of the support group for clergy that have lost their faith, but still have congregations and for many practical reasons … they cannot come clean and leave the cloth. I believe their number is in the thousands. It is called THE CLERGY PROJECT and here is the link !! Reading how it was founded and begun, is interesting, if nothing else. https://clergyproject.org/

THANKS for your post and BEST WISHES to you and everyone around you …. and … GO CATS !!!

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Yes, the word of God is only intelligible as such to the believer.

No, I'm not saying you cannot understand a book unless you believe the story to be true.

Interesting! And that explains a lot. Because as a non believer I still find stories of talking snakes, surviving three days inside a fish, and virgin births to be beyond ludicrous. But if those tales make perfect sense to believers, then I guess that’s all that matters.

A follow up question though. How do you lure new converts? Because you need to believe before you can comprehend the book. But don’t you have to comprehend the book in order to believe? Sounds problematic.

 

[SDC888]

Interesting! And that explains a lot. Because as a non believer I still find stories of talking snakes, surviving three days inside a fish, and virgin births to be beyond ludicrous. But if those tales make perfect sense to believers, then I guess that’s all that matters.

A follow up question though. How do you lure new converts? Because you need to believe before you can comprehend the book. But don’t you have to comprehend the book in order to believe? Sounds problematic.

I have experience reading it as a nonbeliever, then later as a believer.

It's my wish for you, any of you, to experience the latter. Then you will know.

 

[Deeeefense]

The supernatural part of it all is what I'm finding issue with as I grow older and learn more about the world around me. The likelihood of a heaven, and especially a hell, just doesn't seem to jive with me any longer.

Religion hasn't evolved along with science over the ages which makes it outdated and many people like yourself have come to that realization. What most people do not know is that science has been and continues to explore metaphysical matters such as life after death. If you are interesting in knowing about what is being discovered I suggest checking out the work of Dr. Bruce Grayson at the University of Virginia. Here is a link to a conference where he was one of four speakers. He speaks in the area of NDAs (near death experiences) which he has studied in depth. Other speakers hit on other topics such as reincarnation. He has several other interviews on youtube: