What do you mean by this? If you're a Christian, meaning you've accepted Jesus into your heart, you get to go to heaven. Are there exceptions now?
POLL: Is there a God ??
- Thread starter megablue
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If you read the Bible, you will see, and many Christians don’t seem to realize this, that going to heaven is not the objective. The objective is a relationship with God now, living in His kingdom in the midst of a rebellious culture, and then “eternally” on the resurrected earth. Heaven and earth not be separated. I place eternally in quotes, because I am not sure what role time will play in resurrection.
If you have read the Bible, there are admittedly some difficult parts to read and attempt to comprehend. But, to conclude God is not good, you must perseverate on those difficult points and ignore the rest of the story. You must deny Jesus, what he said and what he did. You must overlook God’s pursuit to restore humanity to the garden and his promise to wipe away every tear. You must also deny his sovereignty and power. The Bible is about the all-powerful sovereign God who is not limited by time, space, or our intellectual limitations who serves. That last part is hard to grasp. The creator of all that is seen and unseen serving creation and seeking men and women to join him as ambassadors.
I am not trying to convince you and know that you reject the story. Just stating what I believe as a former atheist/agnostic.
Question for the atheist, especially those who can discuss in goodwill without the stereotypical elitist snipe, what, if anything, exists that is more than this life?
It’s an awkwardly worded question, so let me explain with two short stories, both I believe. Both are people I know well.
A successful middle aged woman died in a hospital. Died as in someone whose heart stops. As medical providers attempted to resuscitate her, she says her consciousness rose above the table and she could see her physical body below her and the medical team working to revive. She looked to the doorway of the room and there stood a very close friend who died tragically a couple of years before. Her friend told her it was not her time and she was revived.
A man was praying and while praying had a vision of floating above a street he did not know. He says he knew he was still in his room praying, but mentally was floating above a tree that was in leaf (it was winter when this happened) looking down on this street on a sunny blue-skied day. He heard a voice that essentially asked him where was he. In the fall of that same year, he was serving in downtown Louisville, when he walked around a corner and looked down a street on a blue sky sunny day and realized he was on the very street of his vision, seeing the tree he was previously over and the houses from his vision.
Two different stories from people I trust.
Is there more that explains what these people experienced? If so, do you have a theory as to what that more is?
It’s an awkwardly worded question, so let me explain with two short stories, both I believe. Both are people I know well.
A successful middle aged woman died in a hospital. Died as in someone whose heart stops. As medical providers attempted to resuscitate her, she says her consciousness rose above the table and she could see her physical body below her and the medical team working to revive. She looked to the doorway of the room and there stood a very close friend who died tragically a couple of years before. Her friend told her it was not her time and she was revived.
A man was praying and while praying had a vision of floating above a street he did not know. He says he knew he was still in his room praying, but mentally was floating above a tree that was in leaf (it was winter when this happened) looking down on this street on a sunny blue-skied day. He heard a voice that essentially asked him where was he. In the fall of that same year, he was serving in downtown Louisville, when he walked around a corner and looked down a street on a blue sky sunny day and realized he was on the very street of his vision, seeing the tree he was previously over and the houses from his vision.
Two different stories from people I trust.
Is there more that explains what these people experienced? If so, do you have a theory as to what that more is?
So-called secular morality that you would refer to as society's consensus only exists because the cultural milieu producing our governments here and the rest of the West have evolved on a bedrock of Christianity. You remove that source, then you can not have an objective framework, but horrors will inevitably follow, as they indeed did in the 20th century with fascism and marxism, each owing to themselves distinct man-made moral frameworks.
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Dostoevsky once wrote: If God did not exist, everything would be permitted ; and that, for existentialism, is the starting point. Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist, and man is in consequence forlorn, for he cannot find anything to depend upon either within or outside himself. He discovers forthwith, that he is without excuse.
Jean-Paul Sartre
Simply put (and those two were your fellow atheist comrades), if there is no moral law giver, there can be no moral law. "You" can try your best to create some framework yourself philosophically, however genuinely "good" hearted and well-intentioned you may be, but in the end, you are faced with the inescapable logical conclusion that anything is permitted; that it is up to you (flawed as you are) to call that "good," and it won't be. Hell, you can see that occurring today right in front of your face with pole dancing children cheered on by adults with dollar bills, yet "you" call it good in the name of diversity and inclusion, trans-rights are human "rights."
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Dostoevsky once wrote: If God did not exist, everything would be permitted ; and that, for existentialism, is the starting point. Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist, and man is in consequence forlorn, for he cannot find anything to depend upon either within or outside himself. He discovers forthwith, that he is without excuse.
Jean-Paul Sartre
Simply put (and those two were your fellow atheist comrades), if there is no moral law giver, there can be no moral law. "You" can try your best to create some framework yourself philosophically, however genuinely "good" hearted and well-intentioned you may be, but in the end, you are faced with the inescapable logical conclusion that anything is permitted; that it is up to you (flawed as you are) to call that "good," and it won't be. Hell, you can see that occurring today right in front of your face with pole dancing children cheered on by adults with dollar bills, yet "you" call it good in the name of diversity and inclusion, trans-rights are human "rights."
God did not "create" sin, but a natural consequence of freewill.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Isaiah 45:1-7
King James Version
45 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
I understand what you are saying...however, it is not supported biblically. There is not one passage in the Bible that affirms the idea that God created sin.
Just because He knew humanity would rebel and reject Him, and just be awful ppl in general, doesn't mean that He created sin.
If He didn't allow sin to exist, our freewill would be gone. We would not have the ability to make our own decisions. We would be robots, and that sounds beyond boring to me. Additionally, with the absence of evil, how would one determine what is good?
As for God murdering groups of people...our minds are finite. God is infinite, and we can't understand why He does what He does. There is no possible way to see the entire tapestry, but God does. If wiping out a group of people means that just one person places their faith in Jesus as a result, it ultimately brings Him glory. Plus, this is the same God that sent His Son to die for us. He could just wipe all of us out, but by His grace and mercy, He doesn't. I trust His character.
How can you have free will with an omniscient creator? If God knows all, then he knows how you will live your life. That means he created humanity knowing most of his creation would end up in hell forever. That's not love. That's cruelty beyond measure.
Why would an all-powerful being create people destined for hell? I certainly wouldn't do that as a creator.
If God created everything, then he created sin too. That can't be overlooked in my opinion.
(1) it is inevitable that in the discussion of the existence of God, someone will say what they would have or would not have done if they were God. It’s an irrelevant topic and is just a way of saying that, in your opinion, you are better than how God is described in the Judeo-Christian bible.
(2) if God is not bound by the time that did not exist before the Big Bang, He sees your life from “before” it’s physical existence to “beyond” its demise. This time-bound language is the best we have to attempting to describe such limitless knowledge. Such abilities do not mean, while sovereign, God cannot relinquish control. In fact, the definition of sovereign probably has to include the ability to do just that. So, I believe when you come to a decisional branch in the road, you have free will to decide which path you will take, but God knows your decision “before” you make it. His knowledge of you completely along the timeline does not mean He has not gifted you with that ability.
(3) God is the founder of love and, therefore, understands true love completely. If He did not give you the ability to reject Him (hell), you would never truly love Him. Your relationships are the same way. If you capture a person and oppress them, they may be forced to say they love you, but neither of you will truly know until you permit that person to walk away. If God forced our love, it would not be love. If we were designed to live in a loving relationship with God, serving as his ambassadors to His creation, love requires our ability to partake of sin and reject Him and His authority. That rejection is separation. In short, people choose hell over God.
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I don't understand how those stories somehow prove the existence of a god.
They're just profound experiences.
(7) I make peace, and create evil . . .—The words have no bearing on the insoluble problem of what we call the origin of evil. “Evil,” as opposed to “peace” or prosperity, is suffering, but not sin; normally, in the Divine counsels, at once the consequence and corrective of moral evil (comp. Isaiah 47:11; Isaiah 57:1.)
Are they? Perhaps and, perhaps, more than just that. But, do they suggest life is more than a corporeal existence?
If so, what does that mean to an atheist? I suspect I know what it means to believers. Is there any explanation for these stories that is corporeally based? Or, does the atheist believe we are more than the physical and chemical makeup of our bodies? If so, what is the foundation of that belief?
Does our “life” and consciousness extend beyond our bodies? If so, how is that explained?
To your first point:
I said what I would do as a creator to make the point that I see God as a fallible creator at best and a downright cruel one at worst.
When my two year old throws a tantrum, I don't get rid of him (kill him) and start over. That would be ridiculous and cruel.
The all-powerful being, full of infinite wisdom's best course of action was to drown his creation instead of a more loving approach to dealing with what he saw as an issue.
It sounds like what primitive people thought up.
To your third point:
What you're saying basically comes down to fear of damniation. I can't truly love something unless there is a permanent, terrifying alternative.
And why does God care so badly? Why not just take those who "love him" and leave those who didn't believe or were unfortunate enough to live in a place where Christianity didn't get to them to just an unconscious void when they die?
Again, it just sounds like primitive people who needed the fear of hell to keep people in the faith.
My point was, and Jesus talked about this. Not everyone that calls themselves a Christian IS, in fact a Christian.
And yes, Jesus absolves you of you sins; past present and future. And while you can never get into heaven through acts (it's not something you earn, it's a gift that none of us deserve), God expects you take the gift seriously, and to try (with his help, through prayer etc.) to follow Jesus' example and teachings. Which, IMO, boil down to forgiving others without condition, and to put others needs before your own. It's not a rubber stamp that gets you into a bar.
I'm not very good at either of those things, but I'm trying.
And yes, Jesus absolves you of you sins; past present and future. And while you can never get into heaven through acts (it's not something you earn, it's a gift that none of us deserve), God expects you take the gift seriously, and to try (with his help, through prayer etc.) to follow Jesus' example and teachings. Which, IMO, boil down to forgiving others without condition, and to put others needs before your own. It's not a rubber stamp that gets you into a bar.
I'm not very good at either of those things, but I'm trying.
Again, as to (1), you are doing just as I said. It’s irrelevant. How God, who understands the impact of evil and its existence better than you or anyone, addresses evil, for the purpose of His rescue mission, is as it is. How you think it would have been better or less fallible is irrelevant.
As to the primitive nature of scripture, the concepts in scripture are not primitive. They are timeless. I am not sure how you could read, let alone study, the Bible and come to the idea that the concepts therein are primitive. Have you read the Bible?
As to (3), are you afraid? Don’t you think it is pompous to conclude that I and others are afraid and therefore have decided to be believers? I was an atheist who read the Gospels to know more so that I could undermine Christian’s’ beliefs. You think fear of damnation changed my mind? LOL. No. I did not believe in hell. I made the same arguments you and others make. I would ask Christians, “if my father would not compel my Catholic mother to hell (their beliefs), then why would I believe your father in Heaven is better or more loving?” That was a common debate, before I actually read about Jesus. Hell played no factor, because I read as a non-believer. Belief in hell before belief in God was not possible for me. In fact, as a “young” Christian, I did not even think of hell, because it was a concept that I did not fully accept. Claiming others are more weak-minded than you does a disservice to your own conviction, because it relies on the false narrative that people smarter than you cannot disagree. For most people, that myth can be easily disproved.
My point was that love requires freedoms to deny. Do you reject that? If the people in your life who say they love you were not permitted to reject you, would that be love?
Hell is the separation from God. He gives you that freedom and you have taken it. If you love God, you want to please God. Just like I hope you are with the people you love. You want them to be happy. The difference is, God knows more about your well-being than do you. He wrote your owners manual. He knows what will give you the best life and make you most free from the opposing forces of the world. So, loving and obeying Him is loving yourself. But, there is no love without the ability to separate. The idea that those who reject God today will want God in eternity is hard to rationalize. THAT would be choosing God out of fear. His plan is better.
Well that’s the answer then. There is no objective truth and it’s personal opinion that determines everything
It's ultimately an opinion on the existence of a supernatural being. I'm on the side of one not existing because I have no reason to think one does.
Well tell us your creation then. Will your beings be robots or can they make choices? If they can’t choose anything why would you create them?
I probably wouldn't create any beings, and if I did, it would be a perfect utopia, because why would I want suffering?
As a supreme being, I'd recognize that I couldn't create true free and therefore wouldn't have people damned to a punishment that's undeserved.
Hmmmm...your first paragraph has already been created. It's called heaven. Where all believers in Jesus Christ are currently. There is no suffering, or pain, or agony, or torment, or loss of life. You just perfectly described what already exists my friend. Why would you not want to partake in something that already exists that you said you would create (a perfect utopia with no suffering)?
This life is temporary dude. I don't live for this life, it is a blip on the radar. In comparison to eternity, this life is nothing.
No reason? Interesting conclusion. All time, space, and matter coming into existence in a blink of an eye is not a reason? I am not saying it is convincing to you, but it is a reason. Right? The complexity of DNA in the most simple life form is not a “reason” to believe in design and a designer? I think there are ample reasons for the intelligent modern day person to believe in God. The reasons may not convince, but they exist.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
And where, exactly, is this heaven? Somewhere between here and Mars? Further out? It is up in the sky, right? What modern men know as outer space?
And if believers in Jesus are the onlyest ones that get to go there, what about the hundreds of millions that lived before Jesus? They burn in hell simply because they lived too early in history?
And why would anyone desire to be anywhere for eternity? That seems excessive. And what would we do for eternity? Would it be like a church service? Lots of singing and worshipping, and pretend cannibalism? ‘Cause I gotta tell ya, after the first 30 minutes of a church service I’m ready to blow my brains out. I can’t imagine doing that for even a day, let alone an eternity.
And when we get there are we all broke down like the day we died? Arthritis, dementia, bad teeth, poor eyesight? Stuck that way forever. Yuck!
And what about, like, a toddler that got cancer from that loving god, and died an agonizing death? But they were baptized. Are they just up there in heaven, toddling around, still in pain, with no parental care or supervision?
Hard pass on all of it!
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The suggestion in the Bible is that heaven is very close, probably another dimension.
The Bible also suggests that pre-Jesus people are not precluded from Heaven. This is an elementary question for someone who has actually read. All people will be judged, not just those who have lived after Jesus. That means that resurrection is not an AD thing.
Eternity? I prefer to live. It’s likely time won’t be a problem, as it may not exist. People will be newly formed and not as we are now, according to Jesus and Paul. In the Bible, people who are in the presence of God don’t seem to be bored. I think it will be awesome.
How are you so sure that if a god exists, that it is the Christian one? Why do you think Greek gods aren't real? Egyptian?
There are a number of dying and resurrecting (after three (3) days) gods that preceded Jesus, according to scholars of world religions, cultures and history. Here is what some think is only a partial list, but the key point is that Jesus was not the only one who died and was resurrected after three (3) days:
OSIRIS
An Egyptian, Ethiopian, Sudanese God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 5,000 YEARS before Jesus.
HORUS
An Egyptian, Ethiopian, Sudanese God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.
BUDDHA
An Indian God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 600 YEARS before Jesus.
KRISHNA
An Indian God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 900 YEARS before Jesus..
ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.
HERCULES
A Greek God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 800 YEARS before Jesus.
MITHRA
An Iranian God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 600 YEARS before Jesus.
DIONYSUS
A Greek God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 500 YEARS before Jesus..
THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 2,000 YEARS before Jesus.
HERMES
A Greek God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 200 YEARS before Jesus.
ADONIS
A Phoenician God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 200 YEARS before Jesus.
JESUS CHRIST
A Roman God. He was said to have been crucified, he died and resurrected 1-30 AD.
I don't need to prove anything...you're the one with the insecurities about this.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Not to mention the 1500 years of Egyptian pharaohs that were said to have been living gods. Like Tutankhamen. He was called “the living image of god (Aten, in the Egyptian religion of the time). And the Egyptians were convinced that the pharaoh, after death, would go up into the sky (heaven) to be with Aten (god). And after the pharaohs died they were wrapped in cloth and placed in a tomb (in the valley of the kings), the tomb sealed with a large slab, and they would later be resurrected. We know this because of the hard evidence of tombs and mummies. And this took place hundreds of years before neighboring places in the middle east used the same stories. And it sounds just like the story of Easter.
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One question I have; is if we were created this way; why do we have to be sorry? Because of Adam is a pretty lame reason and has nothing to do with us. I am a believer (skeptically), so sometimes it seems like it's something we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better. I'd love to see my Beagle and my mother again; but I'm not at all sure this will happen. But the thought is comforting. I really don't need a book to tell me that murder is wrong.
Ah, finally the essence of your "faith"... religion is peer pressure with an out on your biggest fears. Combine that with the greatest marketing image in the history of mankind in the crucifixion and we've solved the great mystery of why grown men are drawn to believe in a children's fairytale.
We're all responsible for our own lives. Living a life where you follow many of what they ostensibly consider to be "Christian values" is a reward in and of itself. Your life will be better and more rewarding if you're a good man and you take care of your family and you live neighborly. You don't need more than that. You also don't need an eternal reward. Your death returns you to the same exact state as you were in before you were born. Blissful nothingness.
So you need a crutch just to get through life so you picked religion. Congratulations, but don't expect us to accommodate your self-inflicted weakness.
I don't want a blindfold over my eyes before I die. I want to be wide-eyed and looking right at it. I accept it and do not cower from it.
What I’ve never understood is if we live for eternity … upon death, why does everyone always say MAY HE REST IN PEACE ?? If you live forever, what’s the peaceful rest all about ??
I think the thought is since you have no body you can finally be at peace. Esp if you're sick or have physical issues. As for people who supposedly died and came back with stories, people have also sworn they were abducted by aliens and passed lie detector tests. It is not proof of anything. You can choose to believe, but just because it is in a book does not make it true.
If you have no body and you're just a spirit, then how bad will that suck to do that forever?
Then somebody shows up that you can't stand and you have to listen to their crap forever? Sheesh. I prefer the blank stuff like before I was born. Thanks.
Then somebody shows up that you can't stand and you have to listen to their crap forever? Sheesh. I prefer the blank stuff like before I was born. Thanks.
That reminds me of the Robot Chicken skit where Jar Jar's ghost comes to Vader and says how much fun they are going to have forever. Vader then shoots him out the airlock.
When I was young I was in a coma for a week and the doctors said I had about a 5% chance of making it. My only memory while in the coma was of being in house with no doors and I kept going from floor to floor trying to find a door to get out but couldn't. Sometimes I would get tired and want to sit down and the feeling was like being in a strong current in the river. But I would resist the current then keep going up and down stairs trying to find the door.
To this day I believe 100% the current I felt was death. Had I given in to it I would have died I think.
Thanks for the share and everybody’s glad you pulled through and made it. Scary stuff ….
This cliché post is more about your insecurity than about any fear I have. You can want to believe that fear guides my belief, that is because you believing others have faith out of fear makes you feel more secure in your non-belief.
My quoted response was to a post wherein the poster stated who would want to live forever. I prefer life to death. That does not make me fearful.
A few years back I was on a plane that could not land. The flight attendant was throwing up because she had never experienced such turbulence. The pilot tried to land the plane three times and could not because of crosswinds. The kid sitting next to me was a fitness instructor. He was white knuckling his chair and seemed really scared. The last time the pilot tried to land, we got so close to the runway, I was confident he had no choice but to land. Instead, the pilot pulled up at a crazy angle. I remember being at peace and being okay with whatever happened.
Why would someone have faith out of fear of death? We all gonna die. And, if it is as you say, what can any of us do about it? Nada.
So, because your empathic explanation for my faith is laughable, your explanation seems to be more about your need to feel confidence in your non-belief. Good luck with that.
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