I found his explanation to be laughable. He was not trying to help people under theocracies. His most common debates were with Christians. And, his Left Behind explanation is also disingenuous.
He sold a lot of books.
POLL: Is there a God ??
- Thread starter megablue
- Start date
He sold a lot of books.
Well, I don't think a personal belief in God necessarily equates to religion. I'm probably not correctly saying what I mean by that. IOW - you can believe in God (as in, this earth, this universe was created by something we cannot see directly, without joining an organized religion)
Many religions have a bad name, and have earned it in many cases. Given enough time, humans can ruin pretty much anything.
Full disclosure, I'm a Christian, however I find myself frequently at odds with how "Christians" very often behave, and it makes me wonder if they're reading the same Bible I am...
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That is why Baskin-Robbins has thirty-one (31) flavors ... people can agree to disagree. We certainly do on Christopher Hitchens and that is not unusual. Many people (if not, most) did not agree with the things he said and espoused, of course.
I think I understand what you mean. I know plenty of folks who believe in God, but do not belong to, or attend, any denomination or church. They believe without dogma, liturgy and/or sense of community, it seems to me. I have a very good friend who does not attend church, but meets with a few folks every Sunday afternoon to read and discuss the Bible. He never misses that ...
Without sifting through this ten pg thread, I typically ask atheists I come into contact with the following: A. What would it take for you to believe the God of the Bible does in fact exist? and B. If He does exist, would you then worship Him and give your life to Him?
Every single time, and perhaps there is an atheist in this thread who could honestly say otherwise, I am told there is nothing that could change their mind...and even if one existed (which would contradict the fact they just told me there is nothing that could change their mind), they would not worship Him (as they inevitably point to slavery, or God is a genocidal maniac, or perceived flaws in God's character, etc). Seems to me it is more of "I don't want God to exist" rather than "I don't believe God exists."
Quite frankly, if God does not exist, and therefore the Bible is no longer believable, there is no point to life at all. Literally no point. Morality becomes subjective, which as a society, is happening more and more every day. Truth has been replaced by people's own truth. Biblically, this has all been prophecied, and what do you know, it becomes more and more true everyday.
Every single time, and perhaps there is an atheist in this thread who could honestly say otherwise, I am told there is nothing that could change their mind...and even if one existed (which would contradict the fact they just told me there is nothing that could change their mind), they would not worship Him (as they inevitably point to slavery, or God is a genocidal maniac, or perceived flaws in God's character, etc). Seems to me it is more of "I don't want God to exist" rather than "I don't believe God exists."
Quite frankly, if God does not exist, and therefore the Bible is no longer believable, there is no point to life at all. Literally no point. Morality becomes subjective, which as a society, is happening more and more every day. Truth has been replaced by people's own truth. Biblically, this has all been prophecied, and what do you know, it becomes more and more true everyday.
Christopher HItchens, whom I was a fan of when he was alive in spite of core disagreement, was at the very least intellectually honest. He genuinely believed what he espoused. He wasn't trying to trick anyone, as is so often the case with modern discourse. He genuinely believed the world would've been better off without all religion.
That's gravely erroneous. His contempt (justifiably) for islamic theocracies says nothing about Christianity.
I also disagree with Collins that faith in Christ necessitates some leap of faith, and in other respects. The great scientists before Darwin were almost exclusively devoutly Christian, and I see no valid reason for them not to be today.
While I agree wholeheartedly with your post, that's not the way they'll see it, not an argument they will find remotely persuasive. Humans, finding it satisfactory, even "meaningful," are "content" to live "their" truth.
That's gravely erroneous. His contempt (justifiably) for islamic theocracies says nothing about Christianity.
I also disagree with Collins that faith in Christ necessitates some leap of faith, and in other respects. The great scientists before Darwin were almost exclusively devoutly Christian, and I see no valid reason for them not to be today.
While I agree wholeheartedly with your post, that's not the way they'll see it, not an argument they will find remotely persuasive. Humans, finding it satisfactory, even "meaningful," are "content" to live "their" truth.
Well thought out and interesting response. Appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. Thank you.
Genuinely curious. I think these big questions are the most interesting to discuss and like getting the perspectives of people with differing viewpoints from mine.
Don't know about that. The overwhelming majority of this board believes in God, and yet, this board always has an angry, miserable vibe. Shouldn't religion be calming to people who believe?
In spite of what a lot of them say, while looking down their noses at others they deem unworthy (which, IMO, is about the most "un Christ-like behavior a person can exhibit); Christians are no better than atheists, when it comes to human foibles/sin. That is one of the central tenets of Christianity.
You know what ISN"T? Going to church every Sunday and riding home on your high fvcking horse, handing out self-righteous tsk tsks as you go and "jotting down names"
That isn't your job, and the Bible makes that pretty f**ing clear.
(And there you go, I'm doing exactly what I'm accusing them of, but I try to catch myself, and try to do better in the future)
You know what ISN"T? Going to church every Sunday and riding home on your high fvcking horse, handing out self-righteous tsk tsks as you go and "jotting down names"
That isn't your job, and the Bible makes that pretty f**ing clear.
(And there you go, I'm doing exactly what I'm accusing them of, but I try to catch myself, and try to do better in the future)
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I am older (70), a former Catholic and know plenty of others who are non-believers, but I have definitely never sensed any anger. Most are very thoughtful about the issue of God and respectfully understand that their parents did the best they could to provide them with the opportunity to know and love God.
For general reference and interest, here is a copy-and-paste from the attached wikipedia, discussing polling data ... it is lifted from the DIVERSITY section:
"Out of all Americans who do not believe in God, 5% identified as Catholic while 9% identified as Protestant and other Christian according to the 2007 Pew Religious Landscape survey.[29] Out of all Americans who identify as unaffiliated including atheists and agnostics, 41% were raised Protestant and 28% were raised Catholic according to the 2014 Pew Religious Landscape survey."
Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia
NOTE: To try to add some relative data and context to the quote above:
There were 70,412,021 registered Catholics in the United States (22% of the US population) in 2017, according to the American bishops' count in their Official Catholic Directory 2016.
Catholic Church in the United States - Wikipedia
For those who like to take a deeper dive into the overall issue and explore related data, here are a couple of interesting links:
www.pewresearch.org
www.pewresearch.org
Religious-family | Religious Landscape Study | Pew Research Center
www.pewresearch.org
About Three-in-Ten U.S. Adults Are Now Religiously Unaffiliated
Self-identified Christians make up 63% of the U.S. population in 2021, down from 75% a decade ago.
www.pewresearch.org
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
You should have sifted through the 10 pages. Pretty sure this has all been covered multiple times.
Religion aside, as a film I could feel the burden he was carrying. It weighed on me, too. The image itself, even looking now at it hanging in my mancave, there is something innately powerful in it and moving. The sacrifice is immense and overwhelming. I'm not quite sure why it gnaws at me the way it does. I get weak at the knees and cannot look at it for long. Very powerful image. I can understand how it has echoed through time:
There are a plethora of examples of henious acts committed by the Christian god in the Bible. If he did exist, he wouldn't be worthy of my worship.
Morality subjective if there isn't religion? Morality is always subjective no matter if religion exists or not. As an atheist, I recognize murder, stealing, etc as wrong, just as most people recognize in our society's take on morality. Religion isn't needed to understand that.
I was mostly joking, based on an old interview I watched with Grace Slick on You-Tube the other day.
I will say though, when someone who is atheist starts expounding about their past struggles being drug to church by their parents as a reason they don't believe in God my eyes start to glaze over.
Also - thanks for providing the research links, pretty interesting stuff.
YW … glad you thought the links were interesting. They sure are comprehensive.
BTW … I am a huge JA fan and loved Grace Slick. MANHOLE is an excellent album by her. Unrelated to the thread, but for your listening enjoyment ….
Absolute good and bad/right and wrong are required for life not to be arbitrary. With atheism, it is fair for you to say what you think is right and wrong, and communities can attempt to come to agreement, but you really cannot say someone else’s decision is wrong. If I like to murder, you can punish me, because you prefer punishment, but you really cannot call my behavior immoral or wrong. Rape as bad is just a societal norm. Nothing can truly be evil and nothing is truly good. As I have said before, if the planet implodes and all life is destroyed, it is meaningless. Calling on me to steward the environment is just your opinion. Babies dying may make you sad, but is not really bad. Life holds no meaning, other than what you arbitrarily ascribe to it. And, so forth.
And, if there is a God, He is incredibly generous to give you the choice to do as you wish. Because, the God who designed the universe could snuff you out with a whisper. If he created you and let you live as you please, with regard to him, you probably should give him a bit of thanks.
Objective morality does not exist without God. If we randomly came into being without God, any person can say their morality is right, therefore inherently making it subjective.
As for your first paragraph about God not being worthy of your worship even if He was real, and that you would not worship Him...if God is in fact real, than logically the Bible is completely real. If the Bible is completely real, then you will be bowing and worshipping to God, as the Bible is clear that all men will bow and confess He is God. So to say you won't worship God if He is real is 100% false.
I would just say living for things in this world sucks dude. Absolutely sucks. We are always left disappointed and empty inside. Nothing ever satisfies. Only a relationship with Jesus Christ satisfies the heart. Without a belief in our Creator and relationship with his Son (who loves us all so much that He died for us), things of this world constantly leave us empty and dissatisfied, and that has never been as evident in the world as it is now. Look around. People are more miserable than they have ever been. And it will just continue to get worse and worse, not better in the slightest.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
For starters, drowning 99.999% of all life on the planet. If that story were true, that would be pretty heinous. Fortunately it’s just a poorly constructed tale.
There are arguments out there on both sides of the morality issue, as far as where mankind gets its morals. Perhaps another poll / thread entitled “Is morality man-made?” would be interesting ??
It is certainly another fascinating topic, no doubt. Thoughts and opinions would abound.
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I used to believe in God. I feel way more fulfilled in life after leaving religion. No constant anxiety about some being who cares about every mundane thing I do, etc. No fear of burning in hellfire for eternity.
God murdered the world, God summoned bears to maul children to death, God brought plagues and suffering to people throughout the Bible, God impregnated a woman against her will to give birth to himself.
None of that is appealing or makes sense to me.
Fringe is pretty kind. Clueless would be more accurate. There’s always someone just a little bit smarter than the rest of us.Two points in reply:
1) Although not a majority position, only a fringe one, of course, but there are definitely biblical scholars who claim that Jesus was not a historical figure, but was a mythical one.
Dr. Richard Carrier comes to mind …
2) There is also debate among biblical scholars regarding whether Jesus actually claimed to be God. This debate centers around the chronological origins of and vast inconsistencies in the gospels about what Jesus actually said.
Dr. Bart Ehrman is a well-known biblical scholar and historian, as follows in the video, but there are many others who feel as he does.
Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
After all, since men can get pregnant why not claim Jesus didn’t exist.
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of GOD the Father.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please feel free to correct me. Based on your response, doesn't seem like you stopped believing in God because of issues proving His reality, seems to me it is because you take issue with the character of God.
I don't have the time to debate all you wrote, but specifically just wanted to respond fear of burning in hell. Speaking only for myself, I believe in God and subsequently what Jesus did on the cross because I want a relationship with Him, not b/c I fear hell. Knowing I will be with Him for eternity is as good as it gets, no greater comfort in life than knowing that.
I think society, and especially Christians, don't realize how much God hates sin. Again, speaking for myself, I am a lying, fornicating, adulterous, back stabbing, manipulative, slanderous, hypocritical (and so many other things) person. I have to be held accountable for all that. As does everybody. I 100% deserve eternal separation from God, but He is gracious enough to give us His Son to be held accountable in our place. Couldn't be more thankful for that as each day passes.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
BTW, I toast Judas tonight. Thanks for all you did to give us a long weekend, and an easy commute into the office this morning.
God said Abraham kill me a son!
Abe said man, you must be puttin' me on!
God said NO!
Abe said WHAT?
God said you can do what you want Abe, but next time you see me comin' brother, you better run!
Abe said where you want this killin' done?
God said out on Highway 61...
On this day, I'm thankful that Johnny Winter did a crushing cover of this. I'm also thankful that of all the wonderful things my parents did and instilled in me and my older brother, maybe the thing I'm most grateful for is that they never indoctrinated/groomed us into religion.
I went to Catholic school and then Christian school, and witnessed some really messed up things. One reason there are a lot of atheists is because a lot of Christians are a holes. (and I am not an atheist.) If you are Christian and not an a hole then good for you, but there are a lot of them out there. And they are very vocal about it. And they do way more harm than good. If you want to do God's work go work in a soup kitchen.
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Maybe with a bit of luck (all bad) you can eventually meet up with him and thank him in person.
It’s not about Christians, assholes or not. It’s about Christ and God. Christians who didn’t live up to anyones standard or even the Biblical standard will not provide an excuse on judgment day.
What aboutism is not going to work.
That may be true. I'm just saying that a lot of Christians who think they are helping really aren't.
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How can God really hate sin? He created sin and knew people would commit them (He's omniscient). If He hated it, He wouldn't allow it to exist.
Plus, God sins all throughout the Bible. He's jealous, vindictive, murders, etc. He's a hypocrite by that notion.
The Bible, or really any religious text, doesn't hold up when examined closely in my opinion.
Interesting and fascinating distinction … Dr. Bart Ehrman argues that belief in the resurrection is not, and cannot be, based on historical proof, but is solely based on theological assertions.
en.wikipedia.org
Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia
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Jesus addressed that, and he plainly said, that if self-proclaimed Christians cause someone(s) to turn away from him, by being assholes that it's not going to go well for them.
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