North Carolina Scandal Etc
- Thread starter Catswin9
- Start date
I can't take credit for this hilarious meme, but I will certainly share it:
There is no reason for Roy to get bonus money if he can't keep up with 13-17 kids........
..including walk-ons like they're special needs kids.
He has to walk that lie back the more this story goes.
Time to make sure they get 'double secret probation' in comparison to Syracuse.
Roy's got some bonus money to pay back also.
..including walk-ons like they're special needs kids.
He has to walk that lie back the more this story goes.
Time to make sure they get 'double secret probation' in comparison to Syracuse.
Roy's got some bonus money to pay back also.
Pack Pride, Rupp Rafters and a few others have done what they can to keep this story alive. The more rocks that are turned over the more dirt that is uncovered. If this was any of 100 other schools in the country the whole athletic program would be on the verge of being shut down right in mid season.
I don't see how or where this is going to gain any traction in the foreseeable future.
I don't see how or where this is going to gain any traction in the foreseeable future.
Friday. I don't think it is going to win any awards based on what I am hearing.
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article53401865.html
“There are no allegations against the women’s basketball program,” Hatchell said during a brief session with reporters. “It’s against the academic counselors that were counseling the players. But there’s no allegations against any of the coaches or any recruiting or anything with the program.
“So if there’s no allegations, how can there be penalties without allegations?”
There is no end in sight, though, to an NCAA investigation into the long-running scheme of bogus African Studies classes that over 18 years benefited a disproportionate number of athletes, many of them football and men’s and women’s basketball players. The case is still several months, at least, from going before the NCAA Committee on Infractions, which is the NCAA’s ruling body.
Before that happens UNC would need to receive an amended NOA, after which UNC would have another 90 days to respond to it. The university has been waiting to receive its amended NOA since August, when UNC provided more details of potential violations to the NCAA.
Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article53401865.html#storylink=cpy
“There are no allegations against the women’s basketball program,” Hatchell said during a brief session with reporters. “It’s against the academic counselors that were counseling the players. But there’s no allegations against any of the coaches or any recruiting or anything with the program.
“So if there’s no allegations, how can there be penalties without allegations?”
There is no end in sight, though, to an NCAA investigation into the long-running scheme of bogus African Studies classes that over 18 years benefited a disproportionate number of athletes, many of them football and men’s and women’s basketball players. The case is still several months, at least, from going before the NCAA Committee on Infractions, which is the NCAA’s ruling body.
Before that happens UNC would need to receive an amended NOA, after which UNC would have another 90 days to respond to it. The university has been waiting to receive its amended NOA since August, when UNC provided more details of potential violations to the NCAA.
Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article53401865.html#storylink=cpy
NCAA investigators concluded that Boxill "knowingly provided extra benefits in the form of improper academic assistance and special arrangements to women's basketball student -athletes." I believe that would qualify as an allegation.
The thing that has really ticked me off recently is Jay Bilas' claims about UNC hasn't broken any NCAA rules etc.
To me that's complete lawyer-speak. It's intentionally misleading, and evasive.
What's at issue is that the NCAA is an association of schools, which are joined toward a common goal, and bound by agreed upon principles. The rulebook already is far too large (which is a nearly universal criticism, including I'm sure by Jay Bilas). But fundamentally the rule book is not going to spell out every single potential infraction, otherwise it would be 20X as large as it already is.
Instead what the NCAA has done is lay out some fundamental principles that it expects all its members to abide by. The infractions that are discussed (mostly related to amateurism, recruitng etc.) are mostly aimed at the athletes themselves and are made under the assumption that the schools themselves are abiding by the fundamental principles.
The issue with UNC is that they themselves, as an institution, have been the perpetrators behind flaunting or outright ignoring and breaking the principles that are in place to ensure that, for example the athletes that are deemed eligible by the school have actually done so without cheating and fraud committed by the institution itself.
I find it really insulting that Bilas has the audacity to claim that UNC hasn't broken a particular NCAA rule when they have willfully broken any number of fundamental overriding principles (and some major ones at that) that the schools have long agreed to abide by.
Below are some examples, just from the overview in the NCAA manual. Areas where I think UNC has flaunted and either outright or potentially broken the principles, I've highlighted in red.
One could dig into each of these even further and find more specific examples within each of these broad categories as to where UNC as an institution has willfully broken the rules, but there's really no need IMO. To me the 'lack of institutional control' charge is more than enough to cover it.
To me that's complete lawyer-speak. It's intentionally misleading, and evasive.
What's at issue is that the NCAA is an association of schools, which are joined toward a common goal, and bound by agreed upon principles. The rulebook already is far too large (which is a nearly universal criticism, including I'm sure by Jay Bilas). But fundamentally the rule book is not going to spell out every single potential infraction, otherwise it would be 20X as large as it already is.
Instead what the NCAA has done is lay out some fundamental principles that it expects all its members to abide by. The infractions that are discussed (mostly related to amateurism, recruitng etc.) are mostly aimed at the athletes themselves and are made under the assumption that the schools themselves are abiding by the fundamental principles.
The issue with UNC is that they themselves, as an institution, have been the perpetrators behind flaunting or outright ignoring and breaking the principles that are in place to ensure that, for example the athletes that are deemed eligible by the school have actually done so without cheating and fraud committed by the institution itself.
I find it really insulting that Bilas has the audacity to claim that UNC hasn't broken a particular NCAA rule when they have willfully broken any number of fundamental overriding principles (and some major ones at that) that the schools have long agreed to abide by.
Below are some examples, just from the overview in the NCAA manual. Areas where I think UNC has flaunted and either outright or potentially broken the principles, I've highlighted in red.
One could dig into each of these even further and find more specific examples within each of these broad categories as to where UNC as an institution has willfully broken the rules, but there's really no need IMO. To me the 'lack of institutional control' charge is more than enough to cover it.
^ jp, I think Bilas is making an attempt to keep the lid on this can of worms because if it ever comes off (from a media standpoint) it will quickly turn into a bottomless barrel of worms that will take the foundation out from under UNC, the NCAA, and college sports as we know it.
I believe it is that big and that potentially damaging
I believe it is that big and that potentially damaging
Bilas and all of the ESPN people get their checks from Skipper, who is a UNC alum. Not a surprise here, but a disappointment in Bilas, hoped he would be above that, guess not. Bob Ley is the only ESPN employee that has even talked about this in a fair way.
Art Chansky who is a UNC homer had written a review of Bethel's movie and PackPride is having a field day with it. (BTW, apparently Bethel is attacking Wainstein and Folt) This is going to be good:
http://www.scout.com/college/north-...at-scandal-when-is-judgment-day?s=178&page=18
http://www.scout.com/college/north-...at-scandal-when-is-judgment-day?s=178&page=18
Another review of the documentary. Author tried to be complimentary but really wasn't:
"Now, on the topic of the backdrop itself, I expect most will be disappointed that Bethel doesn’t attack the validity of the allegations against the University of North Carolina. There’s enough sprinkled in that will satisfy UNC’ers and anger ABC’ers, but the scandal is not a central piece of the film. Considering that Bethel raised $150,000 from private donations, and assuming that a large portion of those donations came from Tar Heel fans expecting “Unverified” to rip apart the core of the Wainstein report and exonerate the university, I’m very interested to follow the reactions from the general public after seeing the film."
http://sportschannel8.com/2016/01/08/unverified-the-untold-story-behind-the-unc-scandal/
"Now, on the topic of the backdrop itself, I expect most will be disappointed that Bethel doesn’t attack the validity of the allegations against the University of North Carolina. There’s enough sprinkled in that will satisfy UNC’ers and anger ABC’ers, but the scandal is not a central piece of the film. Considering that Bethel raised $150,000 from private donations, and assuming that a large portion of those donations came from Tar Heel fans expecting “Unverified” to rip apart the core of the Wainstein report and exonerate the university, I’m very interested to follow the reactions from the general public after seeing the film."
http://sportschannel8.com/2016/01/08/unverified-the-untold-story-behind-the-unc-scandal/
Who are they trying to convince at this point? How can they not see this as anything but embarrassing?
Keep in mind that Bethel isn't a UNC grad or has any long term ties to UNC. His goal was to promote himself which according to the review is what he did. I think it is going to backfire on him. I know UNC fans are stupid but I can't believe that they are THAT stupid to not see this as a complete sham.
Where else in the sports world (or any world for that matter) would anyone find the money or even set out to make a film attacking allegations that they say never happened in the first place.
It is like a little kid saying I didn't do it while standing over a broken pie plate with pie on his face, before his mother accuses him of doing anything.
It is like a little kid saying I didn't do it while standing over a broken pie plate with pie on his face, before his mother accuses him of doing anything.
Link to Audio Interview with Bethel (apparently recorded in September)
Bethel essentially admitting that he accepted money from UNC morons for the film although they were misled as to what the film was actually about.
Bethel claims this film was more the story of the 'people'. What about the 'people' who were cheated out of a legitimate education just so they could be available to earn the University millions of dollars?
UNC homer, Art Chansky, wrote this:
"Bethel’s crusade to vindicate his colleagues sometimes overshadows the main accusation of the movie – that the Wainstein Report was commissioned and carefully written to shift responsibility away from the university, as whole, and back on the athletic department. And his charge is aided by Chancellor Carol Folt’s refusal to grant Bethel an interview and former UNC President Tom Ross never responding to his request."
![[roll]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/roll.r191677.gif "roll [roll]")
There are no words for that kind of logic.
"Bethel’s crusade to vindicate his colleagues sometimes overshadows the main accusation of the movie – that the Wainstein Report was commissioned and carefully written to shift responsibility away from the university, as whole, and back on the athletic department. And his charge is aided by Chancellor Carol Folt’s refusal to grant Bethel an interview and former UNC President Tom Ross never responding to his request."
There are no words for that kind of logic.Saw this on PackPride this morning:
"Cunningham said he hoped to have a better idea by next week of when UNC might receive its new NOA."
From today's N&O.
Also, it is being reported that there is serious disappointment with the Bethel film by some who went. That info is primarily hearsay but I did see a Tweet that said: " Also big time congratulations to @BradleyBethel on the film. Like it or don’t like it, always appreciate the effort behind creative work."
If someone said that about something I just spent $150K on, I would be devastated.
"Cunningham said he hoped to have a better idea by next week of when UNC might receive its new NOA."
From today's N&O.
Also, it is being reported that there is serious disappointment with the Bethel film by some who went. That info is primarily hearsay but I did see a Tweet that said: " Also big time congratulations to @BradleyBethel on the film. Like it or don’t like it, always appreciate the effort behind creative work."
If someone said that about something I just spent $150K on, I would be devastated.
I was interested to see what the fallout (er, response) to the film from the Tar Heel faithful and more interesting is that there appears to be nothing on UNC's Rivals or Scout free boards. There a thread on the Scout premium board with 40 responses but nothing on their public board beyond a link to the annoucement of the movies opening (which I link below). Their Rivals site I couldn't find anything on either board.
What's going on ? Have they circled the wagons on their own film? Are they actively deleting threads about this topic? Have they just buried their heads deeper into the sand and don't think it's worth even discussing?
Very strange.
FWIW, as mentioned the one article about the film on IC is by J.B. Cissell with video:
Link to ICTV
About 20 seconds into the video an extremely strange claim is made. He says: "The scandal itself began in 1993 as academic irregularities in the African and Afro-American Diaspora Department that involved the entire student body population. In 2010 and 2011, it became a national news story when it was learned that Tar Heels student-athletes were also involved."
This is so convoluted and misleading that I don't even know where to begin.
First of all the academic irregularities in the AFAM department certainly did NOT involve the entire student body population. Way to throw the entire student body under the bus just to act like this wasn't an issue that directly affect athletes who broke NCAA rules.
Secondly he seems to suggest that athletes weren't involved until 2010/2011, which is completely misleading.
Third the idea that the scandal began in 1993 only occurs if you actually believe that Wainstein etc. really looked before that, rather than toeing the company line and buying the idea that the cheating was the brainchild of Debbie Crowder.
I could go on but what's the point? These people are completely, and I mean completely delusional.
2 Observations:
1) The absence of any meaningful discussion about the film is not a good sign for Bethel. I have to wonder if anyone really cares? Face it, I see very little discussion on ANY board right now.
2) I find it disingenuous for Bethel to try and clam this scandal "involved the entire student body population" which we know is not true. We have an email that clearly indicates that the people invoved are trying to keep these classes from the "frat circuit." In other words, the fraudulent classes were targeted to a particular part of the student body. If Bradley were honest about that, it blows a major point of his film so he misrepresents the truth.
http://media2.newsobserver.com/content/media/2013/6/8/uncemail.pdf
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Yeah, that Inside Carolina interview vouched for all the hard work that was put in by these people who lost their jobs, yet have you heard of any one of them bringing up a legal battle to fight for their name to be admonished?
I guess you could toe the line that if you don't think its cheating, its not! It seems Roy and most if the Carolina administration feel that way.
The results of this year's team is irrelevant to what happens in this investigation. The NCAA should due their job and get this NOA correct so Bubba can try to find another loophole that delays this a bit longer. UNC will never come clean with admittance, so its up to public opinion (outside of ACC supporters) and the NCAA to right all the wrongs.
Roy's legacy should take a hit on this as well. Its disgusting to watch him glad hand with Boeheim, and think he may walk without any punishment from a system he totally bought into.
I remember Dean Smith telling Doherty after he took the job after Guthridge to not change anything that has been set up for the program:
"Doherty told investigators he inherited the academic support system developed by Smith and Guthridge and was advised by both to not change it.
He said he met with his players at the beginning and end of the season to discuss their academics. He was aware that players were taking AFAM classes and “it was his understanding that AFAM was the easiest major at Chapel Hill, and that the AFAM professors were particularly athlete-friendly with class demands and scheduling.”
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-ba...oke-with-investigators-rashad-mccants-did-not
That right there should be enough evidence that the entire basketball administration knew exactly what was going on. Whether players denied it after the McCants allegations are irrelevant. The transcripts prove that free grades were the guarantee to keep players from having to actually being a student athlete.
Always enjoy Jon Scott's opinion on this scandal. You would think other schools would speak out loudly about the easy rides UNC has been providing for decades.
I guess you could toe the line that if you don't think its cheating, its not! It seems Roy and most if the Carolina administration feel that way.
The results of this year's team is irrelevant to what happens in this investigation. The NCAA should due their job and get this NOA correct so Bubba can try to find another loophole that delays this a bit longer. UNC will never come clean with admittance, so its up to public opinion (outside of ACC supporters) and the NCAA to right all the wrongs.
Roy's legacy should take a hit on this as well. Its disgusting to watch him glad hand with Boeheim, and think he may walk without any punishment from a system he totally bought into.
I remember Dean Smith telling Doherty after he took the job after Guthridge to not change anything that has been set up for the program:
"Doherty told investigators he inherited the academic support system developed by Smith and Guthridge and was advised by both to not change it.
He said he met with his players at the beginning and end of the season to discuss their academics. He was aware that players were taking AFAM classes and “it was his understanding that AFAM was the easiest major at Chapel Hill, and that the AFAM professors were particularly athlete-friendly with class demands and scheduling.”
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-ba...oke-with-investigators-rashad-mccants-did-not
That right there should be enough evidence that the entire basketball administration knew exactly what was going on. Whether players denied it after the McCants allegations are irrelevant. The transcripts prove that free grades were the guarantee to keep players from having to actually being a student athlete.
Always enjoy Jon Scott's opinion on this scandal. You would think other schools would speak out loudly about the easy rides UNC has been providing for decades.
The N&O responds to a Daily Tarheel article:
An N&O team of Dan Kane (reporter), Steve Riley (investigations editor) and I agreed to talk with Bradley Bethel and his team on the record for as long as they wished. We only asked that Bethel agree to answer our questions on the record (once we had answered his questions). We wanted to question him about his blog posts and tweets. We also wanted to ask him questions about the documentary, including his funding and methods. We did not agree to be interviewed on camera. We wanted to have a deep conversation, including being able to make reference to files, documents and spreadsheets. Bethel declined our offer.
Read more: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/01/letter-no-disputes-claim-of-declined-interview
Quoted from The Daily Tar Heel
Our widdle buddy Bradley responds:
Drescher did offer to give interviews off camera if I would allow him and his reporters to interview me afterward. However, such off-camera interviews would have no value for a documentary film. Unlike print, film is a visual medium. Therefore, unless the interviews could be captured on camera, they served no purpose for my film. His offer was thereby not an even exchange.
Read more: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/01/letter-dth-misrepresented-documentarys-claim
Quoted from The Daily Tar Heel
An N&O team of Dan Kane (reporter), Steve Riley (investigations editor) and I agreed to talk with Bradley Bethel and his team on the record for as long as they wished. We only asked that Bethel agree to answer our questions on the record (once we had answered his questions). We wanted to question him about his blog posts and tweets. We also wanted to ask him questions about the documentary, including his funding and methods. We did not agree to be interviewed on camera. We wanted to have a deep conversation, including being able to make reference to files, documents and spreadsheets. Bethel declined our offer.
Read more: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/01/letter-no-disputes-claim-of-declined-interview
Quoted from The Daily Tar Heel
Our widdle buddy Bradley responds:
Drescher did offer to give interviews off camera if I would allow him and his reporters to interview me afterward. However, such off-camera interviews would have no value for a documentary film. Unlike print, film is a visual medium. Therefore, unless the interviews could be captured on camera, they served no purpose for my film. His offer was thereby not an even exchange.
Read more: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/01/letter-dth-misrepresented-documentarys-claim
Quoted from The Daily Tar Heel
Okay, the funniest quote in the original article from the Daily Tarheel is this one:
Bridger, Lee and Deunta Williams, a former UNC football player, defended the rigor of the paper classes. “Some of the topics these kids had to write about, they got more out of that than sitting in a math class or sitting in a history class,” Bridger said in the film.
Read more: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article...nges-unc-academic-athletic-scandal-narratives
Okay, my first comment is this: When does someone get more out of a math class by taking a "paper class?"
My second comment is: How in the world does a major respected university exist when it has idiots like Bridger helping students? She obviously doesn't understand the value of being in class. Was she also an AFAM major?
Bridger, Lee and Deunta Williams, a former UNC football player, defended the rigor of the paper classes. “Some of the topics these kids had to write about, they got more out of that than sitting in a math class or sitting in a history class,” Bridger said in the film.
Read more: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article...nges-unc-academic-athletic-scandal-narratives
Okay, my first comment is this: When does someone get more out of a math class by taking a "paper class?"
My second comment is: How in the world does a major respected university exist when it has idiots like Bridger helping students? She obviously doesn't understand the value of being in class. Was she also an AFAM major?
Since Bobby was stressing the importance of answering questions today, figured it was appropriate to bump this. Curious to see if he'll respond.
This came from a UNC fan. He said he believes to NCAA knows UNC will be no threat to win a title for 3-4 years after this year ends so they are holding off on a decision to see what happens in this tournament and if UNC would win it it the NCAA could use the logic that this one is clean and so what sense would it make to take away 09,05, or 93 banners since they just won this one. He openly admits UNC and Duke are off limits to NCAA.
Duke and North Carolina are untouchable.write it down.
I was impressed. The first fan I have met of either that openly admitted it. The UNC thing though is mind boggling. The NCAA built Dean up to be a knight in shining armor and they will do anything to protect his legacy.
Really?? You ever heard of Corey Maggette or Lance Thomas? No punishment whatsover. If that happened here we would've lost two seasons worth of wins.
I don't believe the NCAA will do anything.UNC Should not be playing now! And they should gave to sit out several NCAA's to come!
Guys and Girls, its playing out just as those cheating SOB's hope it would , they will make the final four, and by time the tournament dies down, collage basketball season will be an after thought, and they will get a strong reprimand and slap on the wrist. The gutless NCAA wont pursue it any further, just like the second tripping incident from the punk from Duke !!
Is this really someone from the committee teasing us? Come on, we know it's you!
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