**NBA Finals Game 3 Thread**

[kyjeff1]

Exactly, you nailed it

Lebron is definitely top 5, but no way he is better than Jordan cause if Jordan was on the Cavs last night up 6 with 2 minutes left, Cavs win. Period.

Lebron is amazing, he just isnt Jordan. Thats no insult, just the way it is.

If you coached the Cavs last night and you had the option to play Jordon or Lebron the last 2 minutes of that game, every single one of you would have picked Jordon.


What was the +/- of Lebron last night in the last 2 minutes when the game was on the line
I think it was -9 , Jordan was to viscous and to relentless to have let that happen

This. Jordan just didn't allow his team to lose. He had a hunger and a desire that Bron just doesn't have.
People keep saying that the Bulls never faced a Golden State, well, Golden State has never faced a team anything like the 96 bulls either. Jordan is just a different dude than what's in the NBA right now. He would not have allowed his team to lose that game last night, no way.

 

[JBHolmesfan]

This. Jordan just didn't allow his team to lose. He had a hunger and a desire that Bron just doesn't have.
People keep saying that the Bulls never faced a Golden State, well, Golden State has never faced a team anything like the 96 bulls either. Jordan is just a different dude than what's in the NBA right now. He would not have allowed his team to lose that game last night, no way.

The Bulls lost in the first round 3 times with MJ. The Bulls never had to play a team anywhere near as good as the Warriors so it's not fair to say MJ wouldn't have let his team lose that game. If Korver, one of the best shooters in the league makes the open corner 3, they go up 5 and likely win the game. He misses and Durant hits a pull-up 3 to take the lead. If Steve Kerr missed one of his big shots would we blame MJ for "letting his team lose?"

LeBron was phenomenal last night. He could score 75 points in game 4 and if they still lose people will say "Jordan would've won that game."

 

[UKWildcats#8]

I'll admit that I don't really follow or watch the NBA until the playoffs, but compared to GSW, Cleveland needs more than LBJ & Irving. GSW had at least 3 guys that could really hurt you.

Maybe if LBJ had talent surrounding him like the early 90's Bulls he would look a little more like Jordan.

I'll admit that I don't really follow or watch the NBA until the playoffs, but compared to GSW, Cleveland needs more than LBJ & Irving. GSW had at least 3 guys that could really hurt you.

Maybe if LBJ had talent surrounding him like the early 90's Bulls he would look a little more like Jordan.

THe early 90s Bulls that had Jordan, Pippen and Horace Grant as their 3rd option is not better than LBJ having Irving and Love as his 3rd option. Get real. Lebron has always had two perennial all stars starting with him on his title teams.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

People keep saying that the Bulls never faced a Golden State, well, Golden State has never faced a team anything like the 96 bulls either. .

My problem with this statement is that it isn't about who Golden State had to play, it's about who Bron had to play. That's the debate, right? Bron Vs Jordan.

So who was the next best team after the Bulls in that era? Pistons, Jazz, Houston? Those were Jordan/Bulls best competition. And even as a Houston fan, none of those teams come CLOSE to this 3-4 year GSW team. I think that's what people are getting at.

I'm not sure who wins, this current GSW team, or those Bulls teams. That's a big debate. What we do know, I think we can all agree on, is that Jordan never had an opposing team like GSW. Lebron's competition over the last 3 years has been almost insurmountable.

If it weren't for GSW, Lebron would be going for his 3rd title in a row and 5th overall.

 

[kyjeff1]

The Bulls lost in the first round 3 times with MJ. The Bulls never had to play a team anywhere near as good as the Warriors so it's not fair to say MJ wouldn't have let his team lose that game. If Korver, one of the best shooters in the league makes the open corner 3, they go up 5 and likely win the game. He misses and Durant hits a pull-up 3 to take the lead. If Steve Kerr missed one of his big shots would we blame MJ for "letting his team lose?"

LeBron was phenomenal last night. He could score 75 points in game 4 and if they still lose people will say "Jordan would've won that game."

Were those losses in Chicago?
0kay, yeah, they lost some games, but how many finals series did they lose?
Again, they may not have played a team like the 17 Warriors, but how many teams have the Warriors played that were anywhere near as good as the 96 Bulls?
We can go in circles all day.

 

[KY Long Rifle]

I readily admit I am NOT a Lebron fan but even with how great he is, he is fortunate to have won the titles he has considering the position he plays. He's a ball dominant 3-4 tweener who has made himself into an outstanding perimeter shooter but who can't control the game defensively.
No matter what people say about "position-less" basketball, a 3 is a scorer and perimeter defender and a 4 is a rebounder, low-post scorer and secondary defender. When you're a forward like Lebron you still need all the other parts to be great also.

GS's other advantage as mentioned previously is how woefully underpaid Curry is.

Good take. Comparing James and Jordan is futile. For the record, I think Jordan was the better of the two, but James is close.

But, I agree that when it comes to taking over games LeBron is at a disadvantage, in terms of comparison, because of his position. Some of it may be mentality as well, but a big part is the position he plays.

On another note, why compare them? I think that is part of what hurts the NBA. Everyone wants to find the next Jordan, and when guys don't live up to the legend it tarnishes their image. I prefer to let guys be themselves. You can be an all time great and not be on Jordan's level.

 

[kyjeff1]

My problem with this statement is that it isn't about who Golden State had to play, it's about who Bron had to play. That's the debate, right? Bron Vs Jordan.

So who was the next best team after the Bulls in that era? Pistons, Jazz, Houston? Those were Jordan/Bulls best competition. And even as a Houston fan, none of those teams come CLOSE to this 3-4 year GSW team. I think that's what people are getting at.

I'm not sure who wins, this current GSW team, or those Bulls teams. That's a big debate. What we do know, I think we can all agree on, is that Jordan never had an opposing team like GSW. Lebron's competition over the last 3 years has been almost insurmountable.

If it weren't for GSW, Lebron would be going for his 3rd title in a row and 5th overall.

I think we are all debating several different points. I was agreeing with someone that said Jordon would not have let his team(s) lose that game last night.
In my opinion, Michael Jordan + his cast + Phil Jackson would find a way to beat GSW, but it's just my opinion. Jordan just never seemed to fail when the chips were down (he did/does have a bit of a gambling itch, so that statement fits).

 

[Blue_2_the_bone]

Lebron may be the #1 or #2 "playmaker" to ever play. But he's not a Top 3 "player" of all time. He's the Magic Johnson of this bigger, stronger, faster era. His team wins more games when he's not the leading scorer. He has always played with multiple All-Stars. Jordan and Kobe both needed another guy but they were the man/finisher of their teams. Hell, Kobe and Gasol beat 4 All-Stars in an NBA Finals.

 

[Bobcat94]

I was a Jordan fan and Bulls fan during his prime and am a Lebron Fan right now. Lebron is definitely close to level of Jordan and effects the game as much or more as Jordan did. Let's face it if it wasn't for the Warriors Super team Lebron would be playing and winning his 5th title with a few more prime years to go. There was absolutely no team back in Jordan's day that could come close to the Warriors.

 

[BoxterS]

What LeBron supporters fail to see is that it's not an insult to be considered 2nd best. It's not an insult at all.

It was mentioned earlier that if LBJ keeps the ball and forces a shot instead of passing to Korver in the corner he would have been ridiculed. I couldn't disagree more. He had the ball and a lane to drive and it was "winning time". Ask Tim Legler. He went on and on about how LBJ should have taken that ball in and forced the officials to make a call. I don't think at all that LBJ gets ridiculed if he takes that and misses. He would have been trying to win. Instead, according to Legler, he passes out of fear that he won't score, or fear that he'all be sent to the line to have to make free throws.

I think the difference between MJ and LBJ isn't about stats (although it's impossible to argue 3-5 against 6-0), but about a mentality. LBJ is definitely one of the greatest of all time, he just doesn't have MJ's mentality and that's been demonstrated too often to argue otherwise.

I'll give a prime example. If you go look up the history of the dunk contest you will see that MJ won it twice. One noticeably missing name on that list? LeBron. Not only has he never won it, he's never competed in it. Why? The truth is LeBron would be the favorite if he competed, but what if he lost? You see it's easier for LeBron to be able to say "well I would have won had I done it" as opposed to competing in it and risking losing. No one doubts that he could have won it. But why not prove it? I'll tell you why, fear of losing. What if he lost? Then his greatness takes a hit. That's a mentality. That's fear of competing. MJ never had that fear. He competed and let the chips fall where they may. You might say "well the dunk contest was lame during LBJ's time". Really? Ok, all the more reason to compete and win. Would be even easier.

Another example: the All-star game a few years ago where LeBron, yet again, passes away the game winning shot and the result is a turnover. If those who follow will recall, Kobe comes over and basically says "what the hell are you doing? Why are you passing?" LBJ has a befuddled response. Doesn't know what to say. Again, one can only assume that he's afraid to miss the last second shot. If he misses and his team loses it's another hit on his legacy. He can't stand the thought of that.

Again, I'm making the case for "mentality" between he and MJ. It's different. LBJ is one of the all time greats. Young guys, millennials, see his size and strength and think "he has to be the best". And yes he's the most physically gifted I've ever seen. But MJ was no slouch physically. And MJ gets the nod because of "mentality". He's truly the greatest.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I think we are all debating several different points. I was agreeing with someone that said Jordon would not have let his team(s) lose that game last night.
In my opinion, Michael Jordan + his cast + Phil Jackson would find a way to beat GSW, but it's just my opinion. Jordan just never seemed to fail when the chips were down (he did/does have a bit of a gambling itch, so that statement fits).

That's a good point. No reason to think GSW is ahead of those Bulls teams. But I think you can make the debate.

One of the things people rarely mention is Jordan's two year hiatus. IMO that's a huge factor on the body. I'm not sure Jordan wins the three titles after, had he won titles in 94 and 95. You're adding 2 months on to your season when you make it to the finals. That takes a huge toll on your body.

I think Lebron being exhausted the last few games can definitely be attributed to the 7 or so Finals he's had in a row.

 

[UKGrad93]

THe early 90s Bulls that had Jordan, Pippen and Horace Grant as their 3rd option is not better than LBJ having Irving and Love as his 3rd option. Get real. Lebron has always had two perennial all stars starting with him on his title teams.

You are right. I was wrong.

 

[jgraf_1]

On another note, why compare them? I think that is part of what hurts the NBA. Everyone wants to find the next Jordan, and when guys don't live up to the legend it tarnishes their image. I prefer to let guys be themselves. You can be an all time great and not be on Jordan's level.

Yes exactly! Why try to find the next Jordan. LeBron was never Jordan he was more Magic. But LeBron is just fine as he is. These comparisons are ridiculous. Let LeBron be LeBron!

LeBron is at worst already the second best player to ever play. In my opinion he doesn't catch Jordan but that's not a knock on him. He's still insanely good and insanely athletic. The likes of which we may never see again...just like we probably won't see another Jordan. LeBron is LeBron...Jordan is Jordan.

 

[jgraf_1]

I think Lebron being exhausted the last few games can definitely be attributed to the 7 or so Finals he's had in a row.

And including the national team time he spent over several summers. That adds up too.

 

[Blue_2_the_bone]

I was a Jordan fan and Bulls fan during his prime and am a Lebron Fan right now. Lebron is definitely close to level of Jordan and effects the game as much or more as Jordan did. Let's face it if it wasn't for the Warriors Super team Lebron would be playing and winning his 5th title with a few more prime years to go. There was absolutely no team back in Jordan's day that could come close to the Warriors.

It's not just a Warriors Superteam. People forget that Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love are both top 3-5 guys at their position in the league. Durant and Lebron are a wash. Curry and Irving are a wash. Love and Thompson are a wash. Tristan Thompson is better than Pachula. Draymon Green is really the X Factor of the team. And he's just an all around player. Not really a major scorer but a great defender, passer, rebounder. Cavs bench is full of shooters. Warriors are full of athletes. Cavs could have had a better team if Lebron hadn't convinced the Cavs to waste $80 Million on Tristen Thompson when he's too slow to play in this series. The Cavs are a horrible defensive team. The Warriors are better coached play better D, and play more as a team. They have an X factor do it all guy in Green.

 

[JBHolmesfan]

Were those losses in Chicago?
0kay, yeah, they lost some games, but how many finals series did they lose?
Again, they may not have played a team like the 17 Warriors, but how many teams have the Warriors played that were anywhere near as good as the 96 Bulls?
We can go in circles all day.

They got swept twice and lost in 4 games in another season (1st round used to be best of 5). Personally, I think the Warriors would beat the Bulls. The Warriors had a record better than the Bulls all time record and then they add another top 3 player and future Hall of Famer on the team. I think this Warriors team is one of the best of all time, but that really isn't the argument. It's about MJ-LeBron.

People knock on LeBron's finals record and say it's proof he's never Jordan, so let's look at it. His first finals he goes 0-4 against the Spurs. Terrible, right? Well, he took a team that would go 7 games against posters on this board to the finals, Jordan was losing in the first round until Pippen came along.

LeBron and the Heat lose to the Mavs in the finals in LeBron's 2nd trip to the finals. I'll agree that losing that finals was a bad one. The Heat were the better team, but didn't show up when it mattered, including LeBron.

LeBron wins a title with the Heat against the Thunder that had Durant, Westbrook and Harden. While they were younger in their careers, that's an impressive cast to beat.

LeBron beats the Spurs with 3, maybe 4 Hall of Famers (Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Leonard) and then loses to them the next year.

LeBron loses to the Warriors in the finals the next year after Love goes down in the first round and Irving got hurt in game 1 or 2. Matthew Dellavadova was a key contributor for the Cave in that series. LeBron and the Cave then come back from 3-1 to beat the team with the best record in the history of the NBA.

It looks like LeBron will lose to the Warriors again in the finals making it his 5th loss in the finals. Other than the Mavs series do you think LeBron should've won, or what series if you trade LeBron and MJ (not Bulls and Cavs) would MJ win? I think the only one you could argue would be the 2nd Spurs series.

3 of the losses in the finals MJ would have no bearing on the outcome. MJ isn't going to lead Delly and Timofey Mozgov to a title and he's not winning one with Larry Hughes and Boobie Gibson. I also don't think he'd help the Cavs win this series. So, the 3-5 finals record looks bad, especially when compared to MJ's 6-0, but 1 loss is with a team that MJ was losing in the first round with, and another loss was with a depleted roster by the time the finals rolled around. It's not as simple as 6-0 vs. 3-5.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Kyrie Irving, nor Kevin Love are top 3-5 in their position at this point. They are very good, but they aren't that good.

Just off the bat, the West alone has 5 better PGs: CP3, Curry, Westbrook, Lillard and now Harden.

Love is in different scenario, because you have varying styles of PF/C. For what he is, you may be able to make the argument he's a top guy. But he's had a huge drop-off since coming to Cleveland. Factoring in defense, he's close to falling out of top5.

 

[jgraf_1]

I was a Jordan fan and Bulls fan during his prime and am a Lebron Fan right now. Lebron is definitely close to level of Jordan and effects the game as much or more as Jordan did. Let's face it if it wasn't for the Warriors Super team Lebron would be playing and winning his 5th title with a few more prime years to go. There was absolutely no team back in Jordan's day that could come close to the Warriors.

You could also look at it conversely that the east is so down it's pretty much been the LeBron invitational since 2011. Since the celtics broke up there have been good teams but nothing like the east was in 90s to mid 2000s. If the east was stronger like the west would LeBron have made 7 straight finals? That's an interesting debate.

 

[mustnotsleepnow]

THe early 90s Bulls that had Jordan, Pippen and Horace Grant as their 3rd option is not better than LBJ having Irving and Love as his 3rd option.

Not sure if you're serious here.

Pipped is a top 50 player of all time. Neither Irving nor Love are top 50. Anyone that wants to make the argument that LeBron has a better supporting cast than Jordan is insane.

 

[JBHolmesfan]

It's not just a Warriors Superteam. People forget that Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love are both top 3-5 guys at their position in the league. Durant and Lebron are a wash. Curry and Irving are a wash. Love and Thompson are a wash. Tristan Thompson is better than Pachula. Draymon Green is really the X Factor of the team. And he's just an all around player. Not really a major scorer but a great defender, passer, rebounder. Cavs bench is full of shooters. Warriors are full of athletes. Cavs could have had a better team if Lebron hadn't convinced the Cavs to waste $80 Million on Tristen Thompson when he's too slow to play in this series. The Cavs are a horrible defensive team. The Warriors are better coached play better D, and play more as a team. They have an X factor do it all guy in Green.

The Warriors at the very least have 3 of the top 5 players in the series, maybe 4. Steph is without question better than Irving, in my opinion. I think Klay is better than Irving too. I agree with what you say about Green. He's in a perfect spot in Golden State. He can guard the 1-5, he's an elite defender and passer. Some would argue he's better than Irving. He's certainly way better than Love.

 

[KYNC89]

Lebron is definitely top 5 and is at number 5. Great and outstanding basketball player, best of his time but he just doesn't have that it factor like magic, bird, and Jordan. Lebrons time is all but finished unfortunately

 

[BoxterS]

The Warriors at the very least have 3 of the top 5 players in the series, maybe 4. Steph is without question better than Irving, in my opinion. I think Klay is better than Irving too. I agree with what you say about Green. He's in a perfect spot in Golden State. He can guard the 1-5, he's an elite defender and passer. Some would argue he's better than Irving. He's certainly way better than Love.

He's a great defender, but he can't guard 1-5. That's arguably one of the most overblown attributes slung around these days. LeBron lovers say all the time "he can guard all 5 positions". Really? When's the last time you saw him buckle down and guard a good 5 man? It's just not true. LeBron is a versatile defender, but he can't guard 1-5. That's just overblown.

 

[jgraf_1]

Not sure if you're serious here.

Pipped is a top 50 player of all time. Neither Irving nor Love are top 50. Anyone that wants to make the argument that LeBron has a better supporting cast than Jordan is insane.

I think he was comparing 3rd option Grant to 3rd option Love. And if that's the case Love is better.

Jordan did have a better supporting cast, but everyone act's like LeBron takes rejects to the finals every year and that's simply not the case and never has been. He's had talent surrounding him. Are they top 50 Pippen...maybe not but Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving have all been very good players.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

I thought if Cavs won this series that LBJ becomes GOAT. 6 straight NBA finals, 7 finals total. Would be 4 rings at the same age MJ had 3. Just a freak of nature.

If Ws win this series, LBJ still can be arguably #1, but a title in 2017 would cement it at this stage in the two's respective careers.

 

[floatingyou]

GSW we're beat last night, down 6 with 2 minutes left, all LBJ had to do was score . If he was the greatest ever he would have found a way to secure that win last night.

Jordan would have scored in the last 2 minutes on that defense to secure a win, GSW have no rim protection

Lebron was +7 in the 46 minutes he played last night. The 120 seconds he was not in the game the Cavs as a team were -12 with 3 fouls, 2 TO's and 0 FG's.

If you come away from watching that game dogging LeBron about something, never speak about basketball again. Its clearly over your head

 

[jgraf_1]

Lebron is definitely top 5 and is at number 5. Great and outstanding basketball player, best of his time but he just doesn't have that it factor like magic, bird, and Jordan. Lebrons time is all but finished unfortunately

He's 32 and still in fantastic shape. His time may be fading...slowly...but it's not "all but finished."

 

[cbrwalt]

What LeBron supporters fail to see is that it's not an insult to be considered 2nd best. It's not an insult at all.

It was mentioned earlier that if LBJ keeps the ball and forces a shot instead of passing to Korver in the corner he would have been ridiculed. I couldn't disagree more. He had the ball and a lane to drive and it was "winning time". Ask Tim Legler. He went on and on about how LBJ should have taken that ball in and forced the officials to make a call. I don't think at all that LBJ gets ridiculed if he takes that and misses. He would have been trying to win. Instead, according to Legler, he passes out of fear that he won't score, or fear that he'all be sent to the line to have to make free throws.

I think the difference between MJ and LBJ isn't about stats (although it's impossible to argue 3-5 against 6-0), but about a mentality. LBJ is definitely one of the greatest of all time, he just doesn't have MJ's mentality and that's been demonstrated too often to argue otherwise.

I'll give a prime example. If you go look up the history of the dunk contest you will see that MJ won it twice. One noticeably missing name on that list? LeBron. Not only has he never won it, he's never competed in it. Why? The truth is LeBron would be the favorite if he competed, but what if he lost? You see it's easier for LeBron to be able to say "well I would have won had I done it" as opposed to competing in it and risking losing. No one doubts that he could have won it. But why not prove it? I'll tell you why, fear of losing. What if he lost? Then his greatness takes a hit. That's a mentality. That's fear of competing. MJ never had that fear. He competed and let the chips fall where they may. You might say "well the dunk contest was lame during LBJ's time". Really? Ok, all the more reason to compete and win. Would be even easier.

Another example: the All-star game a few years ago where LeBron, yet again, passes away the game winning shot and the result is a turnover. If those who follow will recall, Kobe comes over and basically says "what the hell are you doing? Why are you passing?" LBJ has a befuddled response. Doesn't know what to say. Again, one can only assume that he's afraid to miss the last second shot. If he misses and his team loses it's another hit on his legacy. He can't stand the thought of that.

Again, I'm making the case for "mentality" between he and MJ. It's different. LBJ is one of the all time greats. Young guys, millennials, see his size and strength and think "he has to be the best". And yes he's the most physically gifted I've ever seen. But MJ was no slouch physically. And MJ gets the nod because of "mentality". He's truly the greatest.

very well said

 

[JBHolmesfan]

He's a great defender, but he can't guard 1-5. That's arguably one of the most overblown attributes slung around these days. LeBron lovers say all the time "he can guard all 5 positions". Really? When's the last time you saw him buckle down and guard a good 5 man? It's just not true. LeBron is a versatile defender, but he can't guard 1-5. That's just overblown.

I know it's a highlight tape but in that video he guards every position and does it well. He's not going to guard Anthony Davis for 40 minutes but in their playoff series he guarded him a lot in the 4th quarter and did well. Draymond is one of the only guys, and maybe the only guy that can guard 1-5.

 

[cbrwalt]

Lebron was +7 in the 46 minutes he played last night. The 120 seconds he was not in the game the Cavs as a team were -12 with 3 fouls, 2 TO's and 0 FG's.

If you come away from watching that game dogging LeBron about something, never speak about basketball again. Its clearly over your head

Im sorry but you dont understand what is going on here nearly as well as you think.

Everyone is saying LeBron is without a doubt a top 5 player of all time, no one is dogging him.

But if you watched that last 2 minutes and come away thinking LeBron is better than MJ then basketball is clearly over your head.

 

[floatingyou]

Im sorry but you dont understand what is going on here nearly as well as you think.

Everyone is saying LeBron is without a doubt a top 5 player of all time, no one is dogging him.

But if you watched that last 2 minutes and come away thinking LeBron is better than MJ then basketball is clearly over your head.

Did I say he was better than MJ? Read it again

 

[cbrwalt]

You implied someone is dogging him, I havent seen anyone dogging him.
People are just debating "is he the GOAT", which obviously is an extraordinary compliment to even be in that conversation

 

[Stonewall12]

What LeBron supporters fail to see is that it's not an insult to be considered 2nd best. It's not an insult at all.

It was mentioned earlier that if LBJ keeps the ball and forces a shot instead of passing to Korver in the corner he would have been ridiculed. I couldn't disagree more. He had the ball and a lane to drive and it was "winning time". Ask Tim Legler. He went on and on about how LBJ should have taken that ball in and forced the officials to make a call. I don't think at all that LBJ gets ridiculed if he takes that and misses. He would have been trying to win. Instead, according to Legler, he passes out of fear that he won't score, or fear that he'all be sent to the line to have to make free throws.

I think the difference between MJ and LBJ isn't about stats (although it's impossible to argue 3-5 against 6-0), but about a mentality. LBJ is definitely one of the greatest of all time, he just doesn't have MJ's mentality and that's been demonstrated too often to argue otherwise.

I'll give a prime example. If you go look up the history of the dunk contest you will see that MJ won it twice. One noticeably missing name on that list? LeBron. Not only has he never won it, he's never competed in it. Why? The truth is LeBron would be the favorite if he competed, but what if he lost? You see it's easier for LeBron to be able to say "well I would have won had I done it" as opposed to competing in it and risking losing. No one doubts that he could have won it. But why not prove it? I'll tell you why, fear of losing. What if he lost? Then his greatness takes a hit. That's a mentality. That's fear of competing. MJ never had that fear. He competed and let the chips fall where they may. You might say "well the dunk contest was lame during LBJ's time". Really? Ok, all the more reason to compete and win. Would be even easier.

Another example: the All-star game a few years ago where LeBron, yet again, passes away the game winning shot and the result is a turnover. If those who follow will recall, Kobe comes over and basically says "what the hell are you doing? Why are you passing?" LBJ has a befuddled response. Doesn't know what to say. Again, one can only assume that he's afraid to miss the last second shot. If he misses and his team loses it's another hit on his legacy. He can't stand the thought of that.

Again, I'm making the case for "mentality" between he and MJ. It's different. LBJ is one of the all time greats. Young guys, millennials, see his size and strength and think "he has to be the best". And yes he's the most physically gifted I've ever seen. But MJ was no slouch physically. And MJ gets the nod because of "mentality". He's truly the greatest.

Nailed it

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Not sure if you're serious here.

Pipped is a top 50 player of all time. Neither Irving nor Love are top 50. Anyone that wants to make the argument that LeBron has a better supporting cast than Jordan is insane.

Irving averages 21.6 and 5.5 assists for his career. He is a PG type player. Pippen averaged 16 points and 6 rebounds and about 5.5 assists for his career. I'm not sure other than the number of titles how we make the determination Pippen is that much better than Irving when Irving is JUST NOW ENTERING HIS PRIME at 25 years old!

Kevin Love averaged 26 and 13, 26 and 12.5 and 20 and 15 in seasons in his career. He is pretty damn good when allowed to be the man. He averages over 18 and 11 rebounds for his career. Again, pretty good player.

Pippen is definitely #3 in the rankings behind Jordan and Lebron now but Irving and Love are a clear 4/5 and not as far behind Pippen as you think. Grant is well below the other guys though. Now when Jordan had Rodman for his 2nd 3peat that is more of a fair comparison.

 

[MojoYamamoto]

I think he was comparing 3rd option Grant to 3rd option Love. And if that's the case Love is better.

Jordan did have a better supporting cast, but everyone act's like LeBron takes rejects to the finals every year and that's simply not the case and never has been. He's had talent surrounding him. Are they top 50 Pippen...maybe not but Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving have all been very good players.

I agree with you that Lebron has had a great supporting cast in Cleveland now and in Miami but that first team he took to the finals in Cleveland (2007) was team of rejects. That roster included: Shannon Brown, Daniel Gibson, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Damen Jones, Dwayne Jones, Donyell Marshall, Ira Newble, Sasha Pavlovic, Scot Pollard, Eric Snow, Anderson Varejao, and David Wesley. That just is not a good roster. Carrying that team to the finals is an impressive feat, even in the weaker eastern conference.

 

[VikingCat21]

For me, I've never liked LeBron. Since he first came out of high school and they crowned him the "king" and he hadn't done anything yet. You have to earn a title like that and going 3-5 in the finals doesn't seem king worthy to me. That being said, you can not like someone but still respect their game and he is #2 all time for me behind Jordan. LeBron is the best in the world and will be until he retires. I grew up in the Jordan era so I doubt anyone will ever replace him as #1 in my eyes. He was just unbelievable to watch. I think part of why I have Jordan above LeBron is because Jordan was a normal sized player that was just so much better than everyone else. LeBron is amazing but if he were Jordan's size he wouldn't be the same level of player. So much of his game comes from being bigger and stronger than everyone else. Unless LeBron can win at least 1 more title I don't think it's even a discussion on who #1 is...Jordan.

 

[Mr_GG]

This. Jordan just didn't allow his team to lose. He had a hunger and a desire that Bron just doesn't have.
People keep saying that the Bulls never faced a Golden State, well, Golden State has never faced a team anything like the 96 bulls either. Jordan is just a different dude than what's in the NBA right now. He would not have allowed his team to lose that game last night, no way.

Yep. Even if Jordan had a team of 5th graders on his team and was playing the '96 Olympic team, his desire would have still pulled his team through.

 

[USSLair]

It's gonna be hilarious when LeBron leaves Cleveland again after next year.

He will probably try and sign up with the Spurs if Chris Paul goes there.

 

[Bobcat94]

I think what people fail to realize besides the incredible amount of talent GS has is that they spread the floor so much and run so much motion with their shooters that it allows Durant to kill you with his offensive game. Cleveland has great talent to but they really don't matchup well with the offense the Warriors run. When you put the type of shooters and scorers together that they have it would be hard for anyone to play with them in a 7 game series.

 

[HenryMuto]

Were those losses in Chicago?
0kay, yeah, they lost some games, but how many finals series did they lose?
Again, they may not have played a team like the 17 Warriors, but how many teams have the Warriors played that were anywhere near as good as the 96 Bulls?
We can go in circles all day.

Jordan was favored in all 6 finals series and went 6-0. Would you think more of LeBron if he didn't make the finals in 2007, 2014, 2015 and 2017 when he was not the favorite to win ? Would you think more of Lebron if he was 3-1 in the finals than 3-5 ? LeBron took one of the worst teams of all time to ever make the finals in 2007 upsetting Detroit. How many times did Jordan's Bulls upset a favorite on his way to making his 6 finals ?

 

[kyjeff1]

They got swept twice and lost in 4 games in another season (1st round used to be best of 5). Personally, I think the Warriors would beat the Bulls. The Warriors had a record better than the Bulls all time record and then they add another top 3 player and future Hall of Famer on the team. I think this Warriors team is one of the best of all time, but that really isn't the argument. It's about MJ-LeBron.

People knock on LeBron's finals record and say it's proof he's never Jordan, so let's look at it. His first finals he goes 0-4 against the Spurs. Terrible, right? Well, he took a team that would go 7 games against posters on this board to the finals, Jordan was losing in the first round until Pippen came along.

LeBron and the Heat lose to the Mavs in the finals in LeBron's 2nd trip to the finals. I'll agree that losing that finals was a bad one. The Heat were the better team, but didn't show up when it mattered, including LeBron.

LeBron wins a title with the Heat against the Thunder that had Durant, Westbrook and Harden. While they were younger in their careers, that's an impressive cast to beat.

LeBron beats the Spurs with 3, maybe 4 Hall of Famers (Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Leonard) and then loses to them the next year.

LeBron loses to the Warriors in the finals the next year after Love goes down in the first round and Irving got hurt in game 1 or 2. Matthew Dellavadova was a key contributor for the Cave in that series. LeBron and the Cave then come back from 3-1 to beat the team with the best record in the history of the NBA.

It looks like LeBron will lose to the Warriors again in the finals making it his 5th loss in the finals. Other than the Mavs series do you think LeBron should've won, or what series if you trade LeBron and MJ (not Bulls and Cavs) would MJ win? I think the only one you could argue would be the 2nd Spurs series.

3 of the losses in the finals MJ would have no bearing on the outcome. MJ isn't going to lead Delly and Timofey Mozgov to a title and he's not winning one with Larry Hughes and Boobie Gibson. I also don't think he'd help the Cavs win this series. So, the 3-5 finals record looks bad, especially when compared to MJ's 6-0, but 1 loss is with a team that MJ was losing in the first round with, and another loss was with a depleted roster by the time the finals rolled around. It's not as simple as 6-0 vs. 3-5.

I agree with a lot of that, but you're putting a lot of stock in the first round series where the Bulls were swept. What was that 1990? It was definitely in his earlier years before Jordan matured into the player he became later on.
One Jordan developed into a killer he turned into a different guy, one that would not come down and dish the ball to an unreliable shooter. He's either going in himself or he's going to die trying.
GSW may very well be the best of all time, don't know, they are definitely the best of this ERA, but the defensive rules are different too.
I just think MJ had what nobody else has. He just refuses to lose. But I'm talking the 1996 version of MJ and the Bulls, not 90.