Kentucky has a total of 18 National Championships in Basketball

[gojvc]

It was a different era then and doesn't really compare to the difficulty of winning an NCAA title today by getting through a fully-seeded 68 team tournament.

There has always been one champion per year so it isn’t anymore difficult now than it ever was. If anything, you could argue it’s easier now. Back then you couldn’t just get hot in March. You had to be great all year long or you wouldn’t even be in the tournament.

 

[morgousky]

A: Bread titles don't count in the same year the real title was won..
B: Anyone on here that even acknowledges bread titles should get permy ban..

I'm going nowhere.

If they count for others they count for us.

I'm a man on a mission.

Screw the "ncaa only" crap. Claim what you can.

 

[deplion]

Really interesting thread.

Love all you do for BBN JPScott!!

Out of curiosity only, if we look at total titles and not just NCAA championships, would we finish ahead of UCLA?

 

[JPScott]

There has always been one champion per year so it isn’t anymore difficult now than it ever was. If anything, you could argue it’s easier now. Back then you couldn’t just get hot in March. You had to be great all year long or you wouldn’t even be in the tournament.

Exactly. Those who assume that because there were only eight teams in the tournament means that it was necessarily easier to win the national championship always seem to ignore the fact that it was harder to be invited to participate in the tournament in the first place.

In the 1940s the country was divided into eight districts, and only one representative from each district was invited, by a small committee.

In Kentucky’s case their district included not only SEC but Southern Conference (now ACC) teams along with a number of other schools through the Southeast and Mid-Atlantic. Being conference champion wasn’t sufficient to earn a bid.

Something tells me that if today it was said that to even play in the NCAA tournament UK had to be invited by a committee over all other SEC & ACC etc. schools, they wouldn’t consider it so easy.

 

[Rupp'sRunt]

How did you become a UK fan @JPScott ? Considering you never lived in Ky. Just curious

 

[drbubba]

I have no problem with recognizing the 1933 team as a Helms Trophy winner because no national tourneys were held (and I realize it was awarded retroactively)

Also, The 1946 team certainly deserves credit for winning A national tourney. I never have understood why UK chose the NIT over the NCAA in 1946 and 1947. With that group Rupp MAY have won 4 straight titles

Olympic medals count as 2, so 20 titles.

 

[StubbornPenny]

Just for context, the Wikipedia line in question states:



My response to this is that whoever wrote this doesn't really know what they're talking about. Some of the early tournaments the games were indeed held on campuses (including in 1942 UK played in New Orleans in Tulane's Fogelman Gym which directly contradicts the claim above.) But by 1943 the sites of the East and West regionals moved to Madison Square Garden in New York and Municipal Arena in Kansas City, MO respectively, so if hosting integrated teams on campus was an issue, it was moot because the games were not being held on campus after 1942.

These sites remained in place throughout the remainder of the 1940's and early 1950's until 1952 when the locations expanded (from 2 to 4) and changed to include a mix of municipal and college arenas. (for example the regional sites in 1952 included Raleigh, Chicago, Kansas City and Corvallis Oregon with the Final 4 in Seattle). Soon after the gambling scandal made it so that the NCAA would not hold their Finals in the New York metro area again (until 1996 when UK beat Syracuse in the NJ Meadowlands.)

But as I mentioned, the main reason why this is inaccurate is because there simply weren't many (if any) integrated teams participating in the NCAA tournament in the early to mid-1940's.

Below is the list of teams participating in the NCAA tournament. I know that by at least 1950 there was at least one integrated teams in the NCAA (CCNY) but I don't know if any others were prior to that.

1939 - NCAA Field

Oregon *
Ohio State
Villanova
Texas
Oklahoma
Utah State
Brown
Wake Forest

1940 - NCAA Field

Indiana *
Southern Cal
Colorado
Duquesne
Rice
Kansas
Western Kentucky
Springfield

1941 - NCAA Field

Wisconsin *
Washington State
Arkansas
Dartmouth
Pittsburgh
North Carolina
Wyoming
Creighton

1942 - NCAA Field

Stanford *
Rice
Colorado
Dartmouth
Penn State
Kentucky
Kansas
Illinois

1943 - NCAA Field

Wyoming *
Georgetown
DePaul
Dartmouth
New York Univ
Texas
Washington

1944 - NCAA Field
Utah *
Dartmouth
Ohio State
Iowa State
Temple
Pepperdine
Missouri
Catholic

1945 - NCAA Field

Oklahoma A&M *
Ohio State
Kentucky
New York U
Arkansas
Oregon
Tufts
Utah

1946 - NCAA Field

Oklahoma A&M *
North Carolina
Ohio State
New York U
Baylor
California
Harvard
Colorado

1947 - NCAA Field

Holy Cross *
Texas
Oklahoma
Navy
Oregon State
CCNY
Wyoming
Wisconsin

1948 - NCAA Field

Kentucky *
Holy Cross
Michigan
Baylor
Columbia
Kansas State
Wyoming
Washington

1949 - NCAA Field

Kentucky *
Oklahoma A&M
Illinois
Yale
Villanova
Wyoming
Oregon State
Arkansas

1950 - NCAA Field

Bradley
Ohio State
Holy Cross
North Carolina State
UCLA
CCNY *
Baylor
Brigham Young

By 1950, for sure CCNY was integrated with Ed Warner, Leroy Watkins and Floyd Layne. Before that, I'm not sure. If anyone can verify that any of those earlier teams were integrated and that those black players played in NCAA games, I'd appreciate knowing it.

One thing to note is that 1948 was an important year in terms of integration because any barriers (formal or informal) which might have been in place to prevent black players from participating in post-season tournaments was banned. This came via the US Olympic Committee which decreed that any organization that participated in banning black players would not be invited to participate in the Olympic trials. (And indeed this helped pave the way for Don Barksdale of the AAU Oakland Bittners to be named to the US Olympic team.)

The small school NAIB, which did ban Indiana State (coached by John Wooden at the time) in 1947 from bringing a black player (Clarence Walker) to their tournament had to relent and allow Walker to participate in the 1948 NAIB tournament. I know that a lot of UCLA fans like to give credit to Wooden for the change (and I have no doubt that Wooden was an advocate for allowing his player to participate) but it was really the US Olympic Committee decision which forced the NAIB (and in effect the NCAA as well) to open their doors to black players participating in these tournaments.

Posts like this are why you’re the GOAT lol

 

[Supafuzz75]

I'm going nowhere.

If they count for others they count for us.

I'm a man on a mission.

Screw the "ncaa only" crap. Claim what you can.

Only pu**y schools put those banners up..

 

[CondorCat]

Exactly. Those who assume that because there were only eight teams in the tournament means that it was necessarily easier to win the national championship always seem to ignore the fact that it was harder to be invited to participate in the tournament in the first place.

In the 1940s the country was divided into eight districts, and only one representative from each district was invited, by a small committee.

In Kentucky’s case their district included not only SEC but Southern Conference (now ACC) teams along with a number of other schools through the Southeast and Mid-Atlantic. Being conference champion wasn’t sufficient to earn a bid.

Something tells me that if today it was said that to even play in the NCAA tournament UK had to be invited by a committee over all other SEC & ACC etc. schools, they wouldn’t consider it so easy.

Good points. I do think the NCAA stayed with those geographic divisions too long. The tournament did become tougher to win after they went to "seeding" in 1978. John Wooden certainly benefited from that Western Region all those years!