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Kate Steinle's murderer found Not Guilty in San Francisco

Yeah, to hell with that separation of powers thing. Some of you are bigger fans of Trump than you are the US constitution. It's startling.


This has nothing to do with trump. Stop making everything you disagree with a “oh they’re just crazy trump supporters / alt right”

The far left, SJW, BLM, Hillary , cnn , antifa etc and this very case is completely disgusting and worriesome. You’re simple.
 
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this was a white girl shot by an illegal alien mexican multi felon in California. and acquitted. no surprise Fuzzynuts and Mime have showed up defending the criminal and forgetting the whole damn point. this worthless human being should have never been here in the position to have murdered this girl.

and yet no white people rioting, looting, burning down businesses. difference in the cultures i suppose.

Difference between animals and humans I guess.
 
Suggestions on how to keep him out?
build a wall. You answered your own question. Not only will it physically work but it will deter thousands from even trying. Nothing in this world will ever be perfect , but a wall is the obvious answer. Also using Obama's term that he lied about ; it presents literally hundreds of high paying SHOVEL ready jobs.
 
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build a wall. You answered your own question. Not only will it physically work but it will deter thousands from even trying. Nothing in this world will ever be perfect , but a wall is the obvious answer. Also using Obama's term that he lied about ; it presents literally hundreds of high paying SHOVEL ready jobs.
Suggestions for curbing mass shootings and gun crimes?
 
First, counselor, explain to me how you reconcile your theory of intent being a necessary element to sustain a second degree murder conviction in California, with the California Penal Code and California case law. Please carefully review that definition of "implied malice" in particular, Fuzz R.Q. Arnold, Esquire, and explain to me how the necessary mens rea therein equals your definition of intent.

Second, counselor, since you are apparently an experienced California attorney (and, surely, you are, to have such strong opinions of the criminal justice system there), riddle me this. Explain to me how Katie Steinle is dead, that the identity of the perp is unquestioned, and that there is apparently not a single theory of any homicide under which this man could have been convicted? He was convicted of a weapons charge- but that conviction could have just as easily occured if Katie Steinle had never been shot in the first place, if he was found with the same gun in this case on a different day. In other words, her death itself resulted in no conviction whatsoever- it indirectly led to a conviction on a weapons charge, but her death itself resulted in a big, fat exoneration. Since you are such a legal scholar to an extent that you can accurately tell what kind of murder trials first year law students can easily win, why don't you present me with a thorough and detailed list of all California criminal statutes relating to homicide, and explain to me how the State would have lost a trial to a first year law student as to each one? Thanks in advance, legal beagle Fuzz.
People cause accidental deaths every day and unless we (the state) is able to prove that there was intent or reckless malice we don't put the person that caused the accident in jail. You see, details matter.

I wasn't there to witness this act and I'm pretty damn sure you weren't either. The facts of the case were argued in front of a jury and the jury returned a verdict of not-guilty. I am also sure that you are bringing into your argument and state of mind lots of information that the jury was not allowed to hear.
A defense attorney's job is to defend their client, to insert doubt into the case being brought against the defendant. It is the state's job to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the defendant acted in a way that meets the threshold of the charges brought against them.

The evidence of the case showed that the round that struck Ms. Steinle first struck the pier 80-100 (I have seen both figures used, the police testified at the trial that it was 100) feet away from where she was standing. If Zarate intended on shooting Ms Steinle he was a dreadful shot. Ray Charles could have gotten closer. The defense was that the weapon accidently discharged. The state failed to prove otherwise. Even the manslaughter charge required proof that the defendant acted carelessly. Perhaps if the prosecution had spent more time and resources trying to prove that the act was simply careless and not an intentional act required for a murder conviction they would have made a better case and had a better outcome.

To answer your direct queries about implied malice. Malice is simply another word for intent.

Cal Pen Code § 188 explains express and implied malice

Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite such awareness is included within the definition of malice.

Because the firearm discharged does not rise to the level of proving that it was an intentional act.

BTW, I have to laugh at the people claiming here that I am defending Zarate. What I am doing is explaining the difference between a Court of Law and the court of public opinion. It's a shame that y'all hate America and don't respect its judicial system where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. The state failed to prove its case so says the jury. That's the American way. Love it or leave it.
 
You present yourself as quite objective here, and I'll grant that you do make a few good points, but you kind of give yourself away as having an agenda, as opposed to being a rational, and objective, legal analyst, when you make characterizations such as "(the defendant) finds a gun and then has it discharge to the ground". Yeah, it's possible that he just "found" this stolen gun. There are also....other possibilities. We don't know. "Has it discharge" sounds like a diplomatic way of describing an absolute idiot committing an act of reckless idiocy of the first order, but I guess that kind of idiocy in California is insufficient for any kind of a homicide conviction, even when it involves an innocent victim who did nothing to provoke it. But let me make sure I understand your position. In your view, is it or is it not proper, under the best case circumstance of person who "finds a gun" and "has it discharge" and kills an absolutely innocent victim, to be completely exonerated of any homicide charge? Or are you suggesting that the State did not apply charges that could have been brought, but were not?
You are doing exactly what the prosecution did, trying to make a circumstantial case.

What you are trying to prove matters. The prosecution argued that Zarate aimed the gun at Steinle. The fact that he missed so badly brings that into question. When you make claims that you cannot prove or are not believable it inserts doubt into the rest of your case.
 
My suggestion is that you review the California statute relating to murder of the second degree, paying careful attention to the definition of "implied malice". I'll give you a hint- it's not the same thing as "actual malice", or, intent. Then, I would suggest that you either start reviewing relevant California case law to see exactly how courts in that state interpret the definition of implied malice- or, since it's easier, you can just consult Fuzz the Fuzzy Legal Bear for an alternative opinion. Your choice.

I reviewed implied malice, intent, and mens rea. Doesn't change my response in the least.
 
People cause accidental deaths every day and unless we (the state) is able to prove that there was intent or reckless malice we don't put the person that caused the accident in jail. You see, details matter.

I wasn't there to witness this act and I'm pretty damn sure you weren't either. The facts of the case were argued in front of a jury and the jury returned a verdict of not-guilty. I am also sure that you are bringing into your argument and state of mind lots of information that the jury was not allowed to hear.
A defense attorney's job is to defend their client, to insert doubt into the case being brought against the defendant. It is the state's job to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the defendant acted in a way that meets the threshold of the charges brought against them.

The evidence of the case showed that the round that struck Ms. Steinle first struck the pier 80-100 (I have seen both figures used, the police testified at the trial that it was 100) feet away from where she was standing. If Zarate intended on shooting Ms Steinle he was a dreadful shot. Ray Charles could have gotten closer. The defense was that the weapon accidently discharged. The state failed to prove otherwise. Even the manslaughter charge required proof that the defendant acted carelessly. Perhaps if the prosecution had spent more time and resources trying to prove that the act was simply careless and not an intentional act required for a murder conviction they would have made a better case and had a better outcome.

To answer your direct queries about implied malice. Malice is simply another word for intent.

Cal Pen Code § 188 explains express and implied malice

Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite such awareness is included within the definition of malice.

Because the firearm discharged does not rise to the level of proving that it was an intentional act.

BTW, I have to laugh at the people claiming here that I am defending Zarate. What I am doing is explaining the difference between a Court of Law and the court of public opinion. It's a shame that y'all hate America and don't respect its judicial system where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. The state failed to prove its case so says the jury. That's the American way. Love it or leave it.

Unfortunately, their "public opinion" is that the prosecution bent over and purposely built a case designed to fail to protect an illegal immigrant. They think that this occurred because the prosecutor has "liberal bias", and that he's the DA for a "sanctuary city", so therefore the only explanation for a verdict they disagree with is that it was all an elaborate scheme by "libtards" in a sanctuary city to go easy on an illegal immigrant (for what gain, I have no idea, but save that for another day). They have no proof other than pure politically-biased-driven speculation that if it doesn't fit how they think it should have gone, then some political conspiracy must be at the root.

Rather than think critically around the facts of the case as presented to the jury, and that just maybe the prosecution approached this the wrong way and got man-handled by the defense (happens all the time), they choose to take the "liberal conspiracy theory" explanation because I guess it just takes less brain effort to come to that conclusion than to understand the intricacies of the legal system.
 
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this was a white girl shot by an illegal alien mexican multi felon in California. and acquitted. no surprise Fuzzynuts and Mime have showed up defending the criminal and forgetting the whole damn point. this worthless human being should have never been here in the position to have murdered this girl.

and yet no white people rioting, looting, burning down businesses. difference in the cultures i suppose.
You do realize that his nationality, legal status or prior record were not allowed to be brought into the trial because they had zero to do with the facts of this case. His "multi felon" record was for illegal entry into the US (multiple) and a marijuana charge. Not exactly Charles Manson or El Chopo.
 
this was a white girl shot by an illegal alien mexican multi felon in California. and acquitted. no surprise Fuzzynuts and Mime have showed up defending the criminal and forgetting the whole damn point. this worthless human being should have never been here in the position to have murdered this girl.

and yet no white people rioting, looting, burning down businesses. difference in the cultures i suppose.

Wait, what? You're having trouble with reading comprehension.

No one is defending the criminal here, rather explaining to people the verdict in regards to Murder 1 or 2. I've already stated my opinion that a conviction on a lesser manslaughter / reckless endangerment would be appropriate.

Congrats on not rioting I guess? There's just nutjobs calling for a civil war.
 
People cause accidental deaths every day and unless we (the state) is able to prove that there was intent or reckless malice we don't put the person that caused the accident in jail. You see, details matter.

I wasn't there to witness this act and I'm pretty damn sure you weren't either. The facts of the case were argued in front of a jury and the jury returned a verdict of not-guilty. I am also sure that you are bringing into your argument and state of mind lots of information that the jury was not allowed to hear.
A defense attorney's job is to defend their client, to insert doubt into the case being brought against the defendant. It is the state's job to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the defendant acted in a way that meets the threshold of the charges brought against them.

The evidence of the case showed that the round that struck Ms. Steinle first struck the pier 80-100 (I have seen both figures used, the police testified at the trial that it was 100) feet away from where she was standing. If Zarate intended on shooting Ms Steinle he was a dreadful shot. Ray Charles could have gotten closer. The defense was that the weapon accidently discharged. The state failed to prove otherwise. Even the manslaughter charge required proof that the defendant acted carelessly. Perhaps if the prosecution had spent more time and resources trying to prove that the act was simply careless and not an intentional act required for a murder conviction they would have made a better case and had a better outcome.

To answer your direct queries about implied malice. Malice is simply another word for intent.

Cal Pen Code § 188 explains express and implied malice

Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite such awareness is included within the definition of malice.

Because the firearm discharged does not rise to the level of proving that it was an intentional act.

BTW, I have to laugh at the people claiming here that I am defending Zarate. What I am doing is explaining the difference between a Court of Law and the court of public opinion. It's a shame that y'all hate America and don't respect its judicial system where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. The state failed to prove its case so says the jury. That's the American way. Love it or leave it.

The less you speak of legal issues, the less you'll embarrass yourself. I'll only address your first paragraph to begin. You state that "people cause accidental deaths every day and unless the State can prove intent or "reckless malice", we don't put the person who caused the accident in jail". You're wrong. In the state of Ohio, to name but one example, an individual who causes an accidental death can very go to jail in the absence of a showing of intent or "reckless malice". I refer you to ORC 2903.041, "Reckless Homicide". Note that the state of mind for liability is "recklessness", which, in Ohio, is defined without regard to malice, implied or express. O.R.C. 2901.22(B). In a particular case, if the State is unable to prove recklessness, does that mean that our defendant is necessarily off of the proverbial hook? I refer you ORC 2903.05, "Negligent Homicide". Never mind intent or "reckless malice" here, Fuzz. Not even recklessness is needed to prove this case in terms of mens rea; mere negligence is enough, albeit at a misdemeanor level of liability. You see, Fuzz, details matter. If you want to play armchair attorney on the Internet, learn about these types of "details". If California has no law whatsoever that is substantially similar to either of these two Ohio statutes, then I can only say that such would be a ridiculous failure on the part of the legislature in California.

You then compound your ignorance by referring to "my argument". My only actual argument regarding this case, a case in which you correctly assume that I did not sit through the entire trial, is that it is very questionable that the undisputed facts of this case resulted in an absolute exoneration of the defendant, and that it would be astonishing if the State did not have some alternate theory of liability (which was inexplicably not presented as a charge) such as a California equivalent of reckless or negligent homicide. Now, I also made the argument that you don't know the law and that you don't know what you are talking about- and your ignorance combined with your arrogance is actually of greater interest to me than this case itself; it's always a joy to see some patronizing lecture to the rest of us from a pompous windbag. You rarely fail to amuse.
 
You do realize that his nationality, legal status or prior record were not allowed to be brought into the trial because they had zero to do with the facts of this case. His "multi felon" record was for illegal entry into the US (multiple) and a marijuana charge. Not exactly Charles Manson or El Chopo.
Actually, it's very likely that at least one of his prior convictions had a bit to do with the "facts of the case". Since he was convicted of a felon in possession of weapon charge, it's kind of relevant that he was, in fact, a felon. Otherwise, this particular charge never gets brought in the first place. At a minimum, there would be some sort of stipulation that he is prohibited from having a firearm. So, that's considered as being "brought into the trial". So, again, you are popping off on legal issues on which you know very little.
 
The less you speak of legal issues, the less you'll embarrass yourself. I'll only address your first paragraph to begin. You state that "people cause accidental deaths every day and unless the State can prove intent or "reckless malice", we don't put the person who caused the accident in jail". You're wrong. In the state of Ohio, to name but one example, an individual who causes an accidental death can very go to jail in the absence of a showing of intent or "reckless malice". I refer you to ORC 2903.041, "Reckless Homicide". Note that the state of mind for liability is "recklessness", which, in Ohio, is defined without regard to malice, implied or express. O.R.C. 2901.22(B). In a particular case, if the State is unable to prove recklessness, does that mean that our defendant is necessarily off of the proverbial hook? I refer you ORC 2903.05, "Negligent Homicide". Never mind intent or "reckless malice" here, Fuzz. Not even recklessness is needed to prove this case in terms of mens rea; mere negligence is enough, albeit at a misdemeanor level of liability. You see, Fuzz, details matter. If you want to play armchair attorney on the Internet, learn about these types of "details". If California has no law whatsoever that is substantially similar to either of these two Ohio statutes, then I can only say that such would be a ridiculous failure on the part of the legislature in California.

You then compound your ignorance by referring to "my argument". My only actual argument regarding this case, a case in which you correctly assume that I did not sit through the entire trial, is that it is very questionable that the undisputed facts of this case resulted in an absolute exoneration of the defendant, and that it would be astonishing if the State did not have some alternate theory of liability (which was inexplicably not presented as a charge) such as a California equivalent of reckless or negligent homicide. Now, I also made the argument that you don't know the law and that you don't know what you are talking about- and your ignorance combined with your arrogance is actually of greater interest to me than this case itself; it's always a joy to see some patronizing lecture to the rest of us from a pompous windbag. You rarely fail to amuse.

With many of the comments made here every day by other posters I'm far from being embarrassed. I'll take your characterization of me as a "pompous windbag" as a badge of honor.

Here is what I know. The man was charged, the state made its case and the jury found him not guilty on all but the weapons charge. There were obviously holes in their case. Perhaps the state, and you would think in California this would be easily found, should find a better Spanish to English interpreter as there were some glaring errors in the translation of the defendant's statements taken by the police from Spanish to English.

Cite all the ORC you like or perhaps you could educate yourself and study the CRC when commenting about this particular case. Perhaps request a copy of the transcripts from the trial and critique the performance of the prosecution and defense. Perhaps you should interview the jurors and ask them were the state failed to make its case?
When you get done with all of that you can come back to the Paddock and tell us where the state failed.
 
With many of the comments made here every day by other posters I'm far from being embarrassed. I'll take your characterization of me as a "pompous windbag" as a badge of honor.

Here is what I know. The man was charged, the state made its case and the jury found him not guilty on all but the weapons charge. There were obviously holes in their case. Perhaps the state, and you would think in California this would be easily found, should find a better Spanish to English interpreter as there were some glaring errors in the translation of the defendant's statements taken by the police from Spanish to English.

Cite all the ORC you like or perhaps you could educate yourself and study the CRC when commenting about this particular case. Perhaps request a copy of the transcripts from the trial and critique the performance of the prosecution and defense. Perhaps you should interview the jurors and ask them were the state failed to make its case?
When you get done with all of that you can come back to the Paddock and tell us where the state failed.
I'm not going to pretend that have detailed knowledge of this case, and neither should you- you apparently don't even realize that the existence of a prior felony is a necessary element to prove a felon in possession of weapon charge. When you state that "there were obviously holes in this case", you don't know that for a fact. You don't know, for a fact, that a jury didn't simply nullify the facts presented to arrive at a verdict that it believed to be appropriate for political or emotional reasons. I don't know that they did. I do know that such things can happen, and so do you. It used to happen all of the time in the Deep South back in the 50's and 60's. The problem in your case, is that while you can easily agree that this was a common occurrence back then, in that place, is that ideological blinders, due to your political fanaticism and utter lack of objectivity, make it impossible for you to consider even the possibility that it occurred here, in this particular case. There are certainly legal commentators with knowledge of the law far greater than yours (and, no, I'm not talking about the President), who seem to have suggested this as a strong possibility. I'm not. In this particular case, I don't know. What I am saying is that you don't have a clue, either.
 
Thought this might interest some - the perspective of an alternate juror:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...murder-trial-jury-didnt-botch-216016?lo=ap_a1

Had this been an American citizen under the exact same circumstances, this case/trial wouldn't even be on anyone's radar, at least outside of the local coverage. It's the fact that he was an illegal with a record that has emotions running high, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Had this asshole not been allowed to camp out on our streets, Kate Steinle would still be alive, period. That's hard to swallow.
 
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Had this been an American citizen under the exact same circumstances, this case/trial wouldn't even be on anyone's radar, at least outside of the local coverage. It's the fact that he was an illegal with a record that has emotions running high, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Had this asshole not been allowed to camp out on our streets, Kate Steinle would still be alive, period. That's hard to swallow.
Wonder what your suggestion would be for the Vegas shooter...58 people could still be alive if......?
 
Wonder what your suggestion would be for the Vegas shooter...58 people could still be alive if......?

If Paddock had fallen getting off the elevator and snapped his neck?

There's no perfect solution for anything. Every day, people are going to die due to the stupidity/negligence/intent of others - whether it's someone texting while driving, driving drunk, shooting up a concert, etc. It's always been that way and it always will be that way. That doesn't mean we can't have dialogue about what can be done to reduce said deaths - and that includes guns, FYI. I'm the furthest thing from an NRA nut.
 
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If Paddock had fallen getting off the elevator and snapped his neck?

There's no perfect solution for anything. Every day, people are going to die due to the stupidity/negligence/intent of others - whether it's someone texting while driving, driving drunk, shooting up a concert, etc. It's always been that way and it always will be that way. That doesn't mean we can't have dialogue about what can be done to reduce said deaths - and that includes guns, FYI. I'm the furthest thing from an NRA nut.
We can do things to lessen the chance. Like securing our boarder. Would you agree or disagree that there is a huge incentive to come to the United States if you have nothing? From say drug lord infested Mexico? Would you think to yourself, "you know if I get my kids across I can get government assistance from the United States and we won't be deported."
 
We can do things to lessen the chance. Like securing our boarder. Would you agree or disagree that there is a huge incentive to come to the United States if you have nothing? From say drug lord infested Mexico? Would you think to yourself, "you know if I get my kids across I can get government assistance from the United States and we won't be deported."
How about guns? What could we do to "lessen the chance" of people blowing others away?

What you're saying here is doing our best to keep immigrants out of the USA is a good start to "lessen the chance". Wouldn't doing our best to keep guns away from people also be a good start to lessening the chance? If not, why not?
 
How about guns? What could we do to "lessen the chance" of people blowing others away?

What you're saying here is doing our best to keep immigrants out of the USA is a good start to "lessen the chance". Wouldn't doing our best to keep guns away from people also be a good start to lessening the chance? If not, why not?
Respectfully why do you change the subject to guns? I'm talking about people, who may not have any skills clogging available resources. Why does the United States owe it to the world to take care of everyone? It is literally like not even remotely possible. In any way at all.
 
Respectfully why do you change the subject to guns? I'm talking about people, who may not have any skills clogging available resources. Why does the United States owe it to the world to take care of everyone? It is literally like not even remotely possible. In any way at all.

I'm curious as to what gun people think about the analogy of tougher immigration controls = less immigrant crime and tougher gun controls = less gun crime.

Keep in mind I'm a fervent gun owner and believe that neither controls are perfect solutions to ridding us of crimes related to both situations. So my point all along throughout this thread has been to compare the perceived threat of immigrant crime (the topic of this thread is related to this illegal immigrant felon who committed crime, and many comments are claiming if we had tougher immigration laws, the woman would be alive) with the perceived threat of gun crime. Essentially, each "side" believes that their nearly-identical solution will reduce or eliminate the perceived threat.

Righties: Tougher immigration regulations and a wall will reduce or eliminate the threat of illegal (or legal) immigrant crimes such as this Steinle case.

Lefties: Tougher gun regulations and roadblocks for obtaining guns will reduce or eliminate the threat of illegal (or legal) gun crimes such as the Vegas and Texas mass shootings.

Yet both sides also completely contradict themselves by thinking that each of the "other sides'" solution is absurd and will do nothing (I'm of the viewpoint that both will help reduce crimes in both arenas, but neither are perfect, end-all/be-all solutions to rid us of all crimes in both arenas).

My entire point has been crystal clear - not a wild, one-off, apples-to-oranges comparison. I'm starting to believe that you all know exactly my point, but refuse to answer because it might have you playing right into what you believe is some "trap" to make you look foolish. You guys are smart dudes and know exactly what I'm getting at - that you can't have your cake and eat it, too, with believing that tougher regulations will work for one threat (immigration crime), but do nothing for the other threat (gun crime) (and vice-versa). Yet many have elected to call my analogy completely off-kilter and making no sense, most likely because you see my point and realize that thinking one solution will work while the other (same type of solution) won't is completely contradictory.

It's ok for those on the "right" - the "left" people are doing the same damned thing - they think increased gun controls is the perfect answer, while simultaneously believing increased immigration regulation and a big wall is pointless. Remove politics and maybe someday we can debate and move towards a reasonable, somewhat effective solution for both perceived threats. I guess that now that I put it this way, this has been my core point all along - politics hampers us more than it helps, as is evident in threads like this.
 
How about guns? What could we do to "lessen the chance" of people blowing others away?

What you're saying here is doing our best to keep immigrants out of the USA is a good start to "lessen the chance". Wouldn't doing our best to keep guns away from people also be a good start to lessening the chance? If not, why not?
There was already a law that should have kept him out of the country so, no laws banning guns would keep guns from the hands of people who want to get their hands on them. Yes, I understand that that was not the case here but, it will be for anyone who really wants a gun to kill. This case should have at least been manslaughter and that is part of what has people up in arms.
 
There was already a law that should have kept him out of the country so, no laws banning guns would keep guns from the hands of people who want to get their hands on them. Yes, I understand that that was not the case here but, it will be for anyone who really wants a gun to kill. This case should have at least been manslaughter and that is part of what has people up in arms.
There are plenty of laws to keep guns out of the hands of prior criminals, but they still get them. Both situations are identical - our "laws" for each fail and fail regularly. Illegals get back in - laws or no laws - and criminals get guns - laws or no laws. So logically making both "laws" tougher should, in theory, at least reduce the recurrence of these two problems (neither will ever fully eliminate them).

I've just been seeing people (not necessarily in this thread, but people in this thread who have laughed at gun control increases in other threads) that I know to be wildly against anything to do with increased gun regulations turn right around and state that increasing immigration regulations is the perfect solution to the threat of immigrant crime, which on its face is patently absurd given they are both identical situations as related to perceived threats and the suggested solutions to remedy them.
 
We can do things to lessen the chance. Like securing our boarder. Would you agree or disagree that there is a huge incentive to come to the United States if you have nothing? From say drug lord infested Mexico? Would you think to yourself, "you know if I get my kids across I can get government assistance from the United States and we won't be deported."

Isn't it rather hypocritical of a nation founded and built by immigrants to say to another group of immigrants...sorry, we don't want "your kind"?
It is also sad that you and others think that they come here for government assistance. They come for the same reason your ancestors came unless you're full blooded American Indian.
 
There was already a law that should have kept him out of the country so, no laws banning guns would keep guns from the hands of people who want to get their hands on them. Yes, I understand that that was not the case here but, it will be for anyone who really wants a gun to kill. This case should have at least been manslaughter and that is part of what has people up in arms.
Wonder if you bothered to read the linked article from the alternate juror?
 
I've just been seeing people (not necessarily in this thread, but people in this thread who have laughed at gun control increases in other threads) that I know to be wildly against anything to do with increased gun regulations turn right around and state that increasing immigration regulations is the perfect solution to the threat of immigrant crime, which on its face is patently absurd given they are both identical situations as related to perceived threats and the suggested solutions to remedy them.
To add... the gun that killed Ms Steinle had belonged to a govt agent (forget the agency) who had been issued a lock for the gun but failed to it. It was policy that the lock be applied when the agent wasn't on duty. He wasn't on duty when his car window was smashed and a backpack holding the loaded gun that did not have a safety was taken. If the lock had been applied there is a good chance Ms Steinle would still be alive.

If your home or vehicle is ever broken into, the most likely things to be taken are firearms. If there is going to be a proliferation of firearms then at minimum there needs to be discussions about how to make those weapons as harmless as possible if they get into the wrong hands. Personal liability for what happens with "your gun" is a good place to start.
 
To add... the gun that killed Ms Steinle had belonged to a govt agent (forget the agency) who had been issued a lock for the gun but failed to it. It was policy that the lock be applied when the agent wasn't on duty. He wasn't on duty when his car window was smashed and a backpack holding the loaded gun that did not have a safety was taken. If the lock had been applied there is a good chance Ms Steinle would still be alive.

If your home or vehicle is ever broken into, the most likely things to be taken are firearms. If there is going to be a proliferation of firearms then at minimum there needs to be discussions about how to make those weapons as harmless as possible if they get into the wrong hands. Personal liability for what happens with "your gun" is a good place to start.

I've been a huge fan of biometric locks for guns, and there's already a plan to put biometric entry and exit systems in place, but for whatever reason it's been stalled since introduced in 2004 (many claim it's the cost - $400-$600 million - to implement at all international airports and border entry stations in the US). For gun control, it would at least prevent people from stealing weapons to use in crimes, and for immigration it would make it nearly impossible for illegals who have been deported from returning over and over again (no way to fake optical biometrics)...assuming we have plenty of physical barriers in place such as this "wall" or some other mechanism.
 
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Wait, what? You're having trouble with reading comprehension.

No one is defending the criminal here, rather explaining to people the verdict in regards to Murder 1 or 2. I've already stated my opinion that a conviction on a lesser manslaughter / reckless endangerment would be appropriate.

Congrats on not rioting I guess? There's just nutjobs calling for a civil war.


The hypocrisy is running rampant in your posts as of late.
 
Isn't it rather hypocritical of a nation founded and built by immigrants to say to another group of immigrants...sorry, we don't want "your kind"?
It is also sad that you and others think that they come here for government assistance. They come for the same reason your ancestors came unless you're full blooded American Indian.
Not hypocritical at all. You either do not understand what many are saying or, you are being disingenuous. No one wants to stop immigration just stop the flow of illegal, immigration. Also, you must have missed all of the reports of millions spent on illegals living off of the government dime.
 
Isn't it rather hypocritical of a nation founded and built by immigrants to say to another group of immigrants...sorry, we don't want "your kind"?
It is also sad that you and others think that they come here for government assistance. They come for the same reason your ancestors came unless you're full blooded American Indian.

My ancestors came to find gold in Virginia. They were colonist.
 
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Not hypocritical at all. You either do not understand what many are saying or, you are being disingenuous. No one wants to stop immigration just stop the flow of illegal, immigration. Also, you must have missed all of the reports of millions spent on illegals living off of the government dime.
Yes, people write reports to convey the message they are trying to sell. Where in those reports are the offsets for the additional money these immigrants bring in? They pay rent, purchase essentials, pay taxes. If they bring children those reports will accrue cost to educate their children, much of which is not true cost.

As long as there is a great divide between the standard of living in Mexico and the US people are going to leave Mexico to seek greater opportunity. More so, as long as there are people willing to pay them for their work, they will come. There is a demand for their labor yet our immigration policy doesn't allow for it. Mexicans would gladly go through the legal process if one were made available for people of their skill sets.

It is no different than the demand for drugs. As long as there is a demand there will be suppliers. Saying you don't want to stop immigration, just illegal immigration is no different that saying you want to stop immigration for this set of people. Provide them a legal path and they will take it as the legal paths that currently exist don't allow for most Mexicans who come here illegally.

Again to liken it to the drug trade. You can spend billions of $$ fighting a losing war or you can legalize it and profit from it as some states are starting to do with Marijuana.

I can also assure you that a border wall will do next to zero to stop illegals. At best it will make the trip a little longer for some. Go visit a border crossing. Nobody needs a reason to cross the border. If they ask you for a reason... you're going shopping... you're going to Disneyland. Once in they simply stay. Thousands do this every day. Most return home but some do not.
 
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