Interesting fact about Pistol Pete

[mj2k10]

Atlanta Hawks in the 3 seasons prior to drafting Maravich:

69-70: 48-34
68-69: 48-34
67-68: 56-26

With Maravich: 36-46, 36-46, 46-36, 35-47

LSU with Maravich: 49-35. Best record: 22-10, NIT appearance.

Team records for other notable players who scored 35 ppg for any single season, or averaged 30 ppg for their college career:

Rick Barry= 65-16
Elgin Baylor= 68-13
Larry Bird= 81-13
Bill Bradley= 62-21
Austin Carr= 61-24
Elvin Hayes= 81-12
Calvin Murphy= 45-32
Oscar Robertson= 79-9

And 2 less well-known names that can be tied to Maravich are Howie Komives and Nick Werkman. Those are 2 guards from the early 60's who put up huge scoring numbers on blah teams while being given the greenest of green lights.

It wasn't uncommon from the mid 50's until the mid 70's for teams to funnel a huge amount of shots to their best player, and the game was played at a much faster pace than what is normal now. Press Maravich took that idea and amped it up to 11.

No doubt it was impressive. How much it had to do with winning basketball games???

 

[Levibooty]

I can remember when he played at LSU Kentucky fans even then tried to deny his greatness. Rupp admitted he couldn't stop the pistol but his team could beat the other four that played for LSU. Trying to say The Pistol wasn't great because he didn't win a championship is like say Dan Marino couldn't pass a football. Championship trophies are given to a team in basketball not an individual. What hurt Pete the most was Press.

 

[kev69]

Pete was a helluva player. One of the greatest to ever play. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional.

 

[thebluestripes]

There may be a little envy in this thread

 

[anon_q409idbs5m40a]

You don't think it's odd that it just so happens the guy who put up the craziest numbers ever is also the guy who won such a massive amount less than the other all time greats?

There's no way I'm the only one who sees what was going on.

I could care less if it's odd or not. I just recall watching him play and he was one of the best I ever saw. Didn't have much of a supporting cast so what was a coach supposed to do?

 

[GLR5555]

Some folks have an unhealthy dislike for Pistol.

 

[jwphelps]

Dude could flat out ball. Would not have those numbers against today's defenses, but would still play major D1 basketball.

You actually think they play better defense now???

 

[ruppcat]

Many of us older KY fans saw Pistol actually play against our Wildcats back in the 60's and were of course blown away. One fact I happen to run across that I thought was pretty interesting about Pistol and scoring.
When Dale Brown because coach at LSU he decided to go back and chart every shot Pistol made and from where during every game he played there.
Pistol averaged 44 points a game during his career with no 3 point line which of course has never been matched.
Brown said if there had been a 3 point line he would have averaged 13-3 pointers a game. Of course that would have had Pistol averaging 57 points a game.
One of if not the greatest college player I have ever seen and that goes back to the 50s to today.

I've always wondered how the W/L column would change if we could go back and grade games prior to the 3 pt shot to account for those.

I wish I had the technical ability to do so.

It'd be very interesting.

 

[westerncat]

You can tell there a lot of young people on the board that never did get to Pete see play. U tube is a great tool to watch Pete work.

 

[Isonator35]

Did you really say that he would have AVERAGED 13 made 3's a game? Idc who it is, no one is AVERAGING that.

 

[mj2k10]

Some folks have an unhealthy dislike for Pistol.

And some folks have an unhealthy dislike for reality.

 

[GLR5555]

And some folks have an unhealthy dislike for reality.

Huh? Pete is one of the Top 3 college ball players in history. How is this not reality? Are you insinuating he's not? If so, that tells me all I need to know about your basketball knowledge.

 

[Wall Knight Teague]

Fun fact about Pistol Pete is that his awful nonsense never won anything at any level of basketball.

You wouldn't make that comment in 1,000 years if he was a "minority," self-loathing DB.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

Fun fact about Pistol Pete is that his awful nonsense never won anything at any level of basketball.

Neither did Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, or Dan Marino in football.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

You wouldn't make that comment in 1,000 years if he was a "minority," self-loathing DB.

Huh? How do you know what race he is? Even if you did, that's an extremely presumptious and dumbass thing to say.

 

[kydmb99]

Why does there always have to be that one poster who has to come in and shit on the fun?

 

[Orange Soda King]

Neither did Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, or Dan Marino in football.

Yeah, but Barkley, Malone, and Stockton still made the Finals and were on great teams with winning records.

 

[Big_Blue79]

Gee Dave, don't mess up this Hate Pete thread with real live testimony.

I saw Pete a few times too. And anyone who thinks he wasn't the Real Deal is embarrassing themself.

Define "Real Deal." I think he's HOF worthy but nowhere near the top. I would call that a "Real Deal," whatever that is, but I think he's considerably worse than his numbers make him appear.

You actually think they play better defense now???

Yes, and it's not even debatable, especially at the NBA level. There's a reason why teams need at least 4 shooters at all times to have an efficient offense in the modern game, and it has everything to do with better effort/conditioning, better scouting, and allowing zone defenses (which allows help rotations that fundamentally changed the game). Players have to run much further than ever before against half-court sets, and taking a single wrong step or not switching a screen fast enough leads to an open shot by a good shooter (and often for 3). The evolution of the NBA in the last 15 years has been astounding.

 

[SeaKat]

So does ignoring the obvious link between the two.

Because the alternative is that this one guy just so happened to be singularly gifted in a way no one else in history has been AND happened to be surrounded with teammates so awful for 15 years in various environments that even his one of a kind ability wasn't enough.

People don't want to hear it because he's a folk hero of the common man and a nostalgic era, but the odds say Maravich's numbers are what they are because of how he played and his team success is what it is because of how he played.

Using that logic I guess the following weren't really that great in their sport either because they didn't win championships:
-Ted Williams
-Ty Cobb
-Ernie Banks
-Ken Griffey Jr
-Tony Gwynn
-Carl Yastrzemski
-Rod Carew
-Wille McCovey
-Harmon Killebrew
-Dan Marino
Dan Fouts
Jim Kelly
Fran Tarkenton
Eric Dickerson
Randy Moss
Chris Carter
Barry Sanders
Charles Barkley
Elgin Baylor
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
John Stockton
Allen Iverson
Dom Wilkins
George Gervin
Reggie Miller
Steve Nash

You could go on and on. Jordan and LBJ have proven, as argues GOATs, you can't win a team championship without help from the rest of the team.

 

[mj2k10]

Huh? Pete is one of the Top 3 college ball players in history. How is this not reality? Are you insinuating he's not? If so, that tells me all I need to know about your basketball knowledge.

I'm not insinuating he's not. I'm saying that every single objective measure you care to look at, beyond just how much he scored, says he's not. He wasn't even as good as Austin Carr, except in the rosy glow of nostalgia mixed with White Globetrotter hype that appealed to a ton of people in that era, and still does with many to this day.

He was far more basketball show than actual basketball player. Certainly one of, if not the, greatest shows in basketball history. But not player.

 

[mj2k10]

Using that logic I guess the following weren't really that great in their sport either because they didn't win championships:
-Ted Williams
-Ty Cobb
-Ernie Banks
-Ken Griffey Jr
-Tony Gwynn
-Carl Yastrzemski
-Rod Carew
-Wille McCovey
-Harmon Killebrew
-Dan Marino
Dan Fouts
Jim Kelly
Fran Tarkenton
Eric Dickerson
Randy Moss
Chris Carter
Barry Sanders
Charles Barkley
Elgin Baylor
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
John Stockton
Allen Iverson
Dom Wilkins
George Gervin
Reggie Miller
Steve Nash

You could go on and on. Jordan and LBJ have proven, as argues GOATs, you can't win a team championship without help from the rest of the team.

Now name the ones who never really played on a good team, as in ever.

 

[docholiday51]

He could pass like Meadowlark Lemon but it wasn't rehearsed.

He played Globetrotter basketball. Pete was ahead of his time and a great talent.I am surprised by some of the posts here that seem to say different.If there had been a 3 point line when he played he would have averaged over 50(probably under 55 though)

Pete hit more of his teammates in the head with passes than he did in the hands.As someone said earlier Hester and Sanders were pretty good (so was Collis Temple Sr)

The chance to see him play was like seeing Mantle,Ali,Alcindor,Unitas or any other legend you can name

Just one question for the board,does everyone agree that it is currently daylight outside in Kentucky?

 

[sambowieshin]

You actually think they play better defense now???

They have to. There was no three point shot back then. Defenses were more likely to pack it in against a shooter and play the odds that they would not beat them with shots outside of 20 plus feet from the basket. Teams are forced to guard those players more closely now because, statistically, if you hit 35% or higher from that distance making three pointers, it is more in line with hitting 50% of your two point shots. Not saying they didn't guard them, but they got more open looks from that distance than a great shooter would today.

 

[jwphelps]

They have to. There was no three point shot back then. Defenses were more likely to pack it in against a shooter and play the odds that they would not beat them with shots outside of 20 plus feet from the basket. Teams are forced to guard those players more closely now because, statistically, if you hit 35% or higher from that distance making three pointers, it is more in line with hitting 50% of your two point shots. Not saying they didn't guard them, but they got more open looks from that distance than a great shooter would today.

But Pete was way more than an outside shooter, and now days defenses cannot get by with what they used to with the hands and all.

 

[jwphelps]

Define "Real Deal." I think he's HOF worthy but nowhere near the top. I would call that a "Real Deal," whatever that is, but I think he's considerably worse than his numbers make him appear.



Yes, and it's not even debatable, especially at the NBA level. There's a reason why teams need at least 4 shooters at all times to have an efficient offense in the modern game, and it has everything to do with better effort/conditioning, better scouting, and allowing zone defenses (which allows help rotations that fundamentally changed the game). Players have to run much further than ever before against half-court sets, and taking a single wrong step or not switching a screen fast enough leads to an open shot by a good shooter (and often for 3). The evolution of the NBA in the last 15 years has been astounding.

I think I was talking about college, could care less about the NBA

 

[wkycatfan]

Pete wasn't a ball hog IMO. Great and willing passer. May not have been a great defensive player, but probably had to save his energy for offense.

 

[Calsarmy]

Someone was telling me that MJ was the greatest player of all time. Course he couldnt win a thing the first 6 years in the NBA but finally he got some players around him. Had nothing to do with him by the way, but with the management of the Bulls. Pistol played on terrible teams. The LSU teams were bad for the most part. The NO team was worse than bad. But regardless I cant think of one thing MJ did that had not already been done already. With Pistol EVERYTHING he did was something that had never been seen before on the court. Im sure the folks here he didnt start watching BB till 2012 might have a different opinion. Having seen every superstar in bb in the NBA and most college players since about 1960 Im going to throw my 2 cents in and say the one player that was different than all the others was "Wilt".

 

[gamecockcat]

Don't forget that the NCAA tournament was only 32 teams in Pete's era and only the conference champions got to go. I think in the early 70s NCSt and MD were #1 and #2 and MD lost in the ACC tourney final and didn't go. So, LSU and Pete would certainly have been in the NCAA tourney under today's rules and who knows what he might have done there. While his 'legacy' shows that his teams didn't win much and I don't think they ever went to the NCAA tourney, there's a big reason why. If he'd led his team to an Elite 8 a year or two, naysayer's opinions might be different but no way was LSU going to beat Issel and Rupp to get to the NCAA.

 

[TnRustyCAT]

I can remember when he played at LSU Kentucky fans even then tried to deny his greatness. Rupp admitted he couldn't stop the pistol but his team could beat the other four that played for LSU. Trying to say The Pistol wasn't great because he didn't win a championship is like say Dan Marino couldn't pass a football. Championship trophies are given to a team in basketball not an individual. What hurt Pete the most was Press.

I could not agree with you any more ! I also remember coach Rupp's pre game show when he was asik. what are you going to do with the Pistol? Nothing, he can't beat by his self.......

 

[Rolf Russman]

iirc I read that Pistol was Magic Johnsons mentor in how he loved the razzle dazzle ball handling. I did have the pleasure to see him play once in Memorial Coliseum against our famed Big Dan. He was a show without a doubt but yet a one man show that lost. Still a good memory nonetheless.

Those games were just tremendous. . . because going in you were 99% sure the Cats were gonna win AND Pete was gonna drop 50!

 

[TnRustyCAT]

I'm not insinuating he's not. I'm saying that every single objective measure you care to look at, beyond just how much he scored, says he's not. He wasn't even as good as Austin Carr, except in the rosy glow of nostalgia mixed with White Globetrotter hype that appealed to a ton of people in that era, and still does with many to this day.

He was far more basketball show than actual basketball player. Certainly one of, if not the, greatest shows in basketball history. But not player.

That is ALL any basketball is anymore!! It's a show, at all level's!! Entertainment to MOST PLAYER'S and FAN'S.....

 

[GonzoCat90]

Atlanta Hawks in the 3 seasons prior to drafting Maravich:

69-70: 48-34
68-69: 48-34
67-68: 56-26

With Maravich: 36-46, 36-46, 46-36, 35-47

LSU with Maravich: 49-35. Best record: 22-10, NIT appearance.

Team records for other notable players who scored 35 ppg for any single season, or averaged 30 ppg for their college career:

Rick Barry= 65-16
Elgin Baylor= 68-13
Larry Bird= 81-13
Bill Bradley= 62-21
Austin Carr= 61-24
Elvin Hayes= 81-12
Calvin Murphy= 45-32
Oscar Robertson= 79-9

And 2 less well-known names that can be tied to Maravich are Howie Komives and Nick Werkman. Those are 2 guards from the early 60's who put up huge scoring numbers on blah teams while being given the greenest of green lights.

It wasn't uncommon from the mid 50's until the mid 70's for teams to funnel a huge amount of shots to their best player, and the game was played at a much faster pace than what is normal now. Press Maravich took that idea and amped it up to 11.

No doubt it was impressive. How much it had to do with winning basketball games???

I'm so glad I scanned before replying to all the quotes. Thanks for doing the research legwork.

 

[GonzoCat90]

You wouldn't make that comment in 1,000 years if he was a "minority," self-loathing DB.

Lol take your shit somewhere else, Grand Dragon.

 

[mj2k10]

Pete wasn't a ball hog IMO. Great and willing passer. May not have been a great defensive player, but probably had to save his energy for offense.

Maravich missed more shots in his 3 years of college than Dan Issel attempted. By over 200.

As for Maravich being "top 3", as many are asserting in this thread, I'll ask who you're taking him over if you're trying to win games in college. I'll limit it to guys from the mid 50's to the end of the 70's, as I think comparisons from time frames too far apart are meaningless.

Are you (in a general sense, directed to those who think Maravich was top 3) taking him over:

Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Jerry Lucas, Bill Bradley, Elvin Hayes, Lew Alcindor, Austin Carr, Dan Issel, Bill Walton,David Thompson, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson?

Some, maybe, just going by college career, but all but 2 of them?

I don't see how, unless you ignore just about everything except scoring average.

 

[uky8unc5]

Define "Real Deal." I think he's HOF worthy but nowhere near the top.

I can accept that...if you tell me you witnessed Pete live.
If not...take it from us old farts: Pete was the Real Deal who would shine like a star of stars still today.

 

[sambowieshin]

But Pete was way more than an outside shooter, and now days defenses cannot get by with what they used to with the hands and all.

The difference in our opinion probably hinges on what "better defense" means. I don't necessarily think teams or players play more fundamentally sound defense but generally today's athletes are bigger, stronger, quicker and have more length than the average SEC player in the 60's. That is just a fact.

 

[Johnfarrel]

iirc I read that Pistol was Magic Johnsons mentor in how he loved the razzle dazzle ball handling. I did have the pleasure to see him play once in Memorial Coliseum against our famed Big Dan. He was a show without a doubt but yet a one man show that lost. Still a good memory nonetheless.

I think he scored 64 in a game against Kentucky and lost. It may have that game.

 

[Bluegrass79]

Pistol is probably the smartest basketball player that ever lived. Nobody can match what he knows about basketball drills and practicing basketball skills. He has stated that from 5 to about 14 years old he never went more than a few hours hour without a basketball bouncing in his hand.
Pete probably crossed the 10,000 hour mark before he was a teenager. He probably died with 40,000+ hours practicing and playing basketball.

 

[Calsarmy]

Did you really say that he would have AVERAGED 13 made 3's a game? Idc who it is, no one is AVERAGING that.

Did you actually read the post? Im guessing not, but I will type slowly so you can keep up. When Dale Brown took over at LSU as HC he took it upon himself to go back and chart every one of Pistols game in college. Where the shots were taken, time, score ect. He in his book stated that Pistol would have averaged 13-3's per game. Now that means instead of counting for 2 it would have been a 3. Hence 13 points more per game. He averaged 44 per game. So if we take 44 and add that with 13 that would be 57. Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Fact / best part of this thread is your avatar.

Yes, @Lovebaskelball has a nice set of sweater puppies there.