He gone … unvaccinated Vikings coach

[Bill Derington]

I've not said that. The closest thing I've said is that the decision should be up to a person and their general practitioner. I don't believe that the decision should be completely left up to someone who searched google or conspiracy news sites for answers. Again, there's a reason conservative media is starting to favor vaccines. Who do you think our country stands to lose the most when things get real bad this fall? Some of us are trying to keep folks alive because nobody deserves to die gasping for breath and drowning from a preventable, transmissible disease while being totally isolated from their loved ones. Nor do they deserve the potentially lifelong health problems that accompany survival.

Regardless, an employer shouldn't be required to harbor an unvaccinated, potential health liability. If you're a pilot traveling internationally, you get your shots. If you're a college student about to live in dorms, you get your shots. If you're a doctor, you get your shots, because nobody likes hepatitis. The laws on this vary state-to-state.

You might have a point if the vaccine was still experimental. There's a lot more that goes into it than just that, but we'll simplify it to narrow things down to that one point. Most employers aren't the researchers who conducted the studies in 2020 to determine vaccine safety and efficacy.

Two totally different arenas, my friend.

I would like to ask you one question, though. Why are you, personally, anti vaccine, or hesitant, or whatever stance you may be?

When did “ conservative media” not favor vaccines? Perhaps you should listen to less liberal media.
Reporting issues with the vaccine isn’t being opposed to the vaccine, it’s giving the viewers the info so they can make a decision.
People will get sick from the vaccine, a large % will in fact in the form of aches and fever. Very few, but some do get even more ill. Stating that isn’t being an “ antivaxxer”.
Its also concerning that prior Covid illness isn’t taken into account, at all. Either the tests being used aren’t accurate, or being prior covid + increases the vaccines efficacy numbers, there’s no other logical reason not to take that into account.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

i would ask any of these families who died...

go ahead, ask them

I hope you realize VAERS is an open database. I can post that my head fell off 2 minutes after my vaccine. I trust you can discern the problem with that.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I got my second dose of Pfizer vaccine on April 9. Ever since then I’ve noticed I’ve been getting more and more mosquito bites. I didn’t have this problem back in January, February or March. I spend a good deal of time outdoors, and these itchy spots are not pleasant. I feel that this is an under-reported side effect that they don’t want us to know about.

 

[crashtestdummy]

I got my second dose of Pfizer vaccine on April 9. Ever since then I’ve noticed I’ve been getting more and more mosquito bites. I didn’t have this problem back in January, February or March. I spend a good deal of time outdoors, and these itchy spots are not pleasant. I feel that this is an under-reported side effect that they don’t want us to know about.

could be a reaction with your medication. reports are starting to surface that the combination of the Pfizer vaccine and PrEP attract mosquitos.

 

[JPFisher]

When did “ conservative media” not favor vaccines? Perhaps you should listen to less liberal media.
Reporting issues with the vaccine isn’t being opposed to the vaccine, it’s giving the viewers the info so they can make a decision.
People will get sick from the vaccine, a large % will in fact in the form of aches and fever. Very few, but some do get even more ill. Stating that isn’t being an “ antivaxxer”.
Its also concerning that prior Covid illness isn’t taken into account, at all. Either the tests being used aren’t accurate, or being prior covid + increases the vaccines efficacy numbers, there’s no other logical reason not to take that into account.

I can assure you that the closest thing to "liberal media" that I read or listen to is NPR, and that isn't often. I usually base how liberal a news media site is by how poorly they explain concepts related to firearms.

Conservative media has, generally, advised against vaccination over the last 6 months. It's a large part of the reason red states lag behind blue states in terms of vaccination per capita.

Reporting issues with the vaccine is noble. Making the issues seem much more common than they actually are or labeling them as experimental when they definitely aren't, isn't. ESPECIALLY when many reports cannot be verified, are spread across social media, and begin to feed into people's confirmation bias.

There's a pretty solid reason not to take prior infection into account. The simple answer is we literally have no idea how long immunity lasts or how strong it is after infection with any variant of SARS-CoV-2. A longer where would have to delve into the THEORY of immunity. We aren't able to test T cells as much as antibodies or active infections. As such, it's hard to know how much immunity lasts once antibodies are gone. Here's a link that will explain it in more detail. How ‘killer’ T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants. Emphasis on "could." We don't know for sure yet, so until we get confirmation on that, the vaccine is the only thing we have that's shown to provide a robust, long-term immunity. I can guarantee you that scientists are busting their asses on this line of research, though.

Hope that answers/addresses everything. Trying to respond before work. 🤙🏼

 

[Bill Derington]

I can assure you that the closest thing to "liberal media" that I read or listen to is NPR, and that isn't often. I usually base how liberal a news media site is by how poorly they explain concepts related to firearms.

Conservative media has, generally, advised against vaccination over the last 6 months. It's a large part of the reason red states lag behind blue states in terms of vaccination per capita.

Reporting issues with the vaccine is noble. Making the issues seem much more common than they actually are or labeling them as experimental when they definitely aren't, isn't. ESPECIALLY when many reports cannot be verified, are spread across social media, and begin to feed into people's confirmation bias.

There's a pretty solid reason not to take prior infection into account. The simple answer is we literally have no idea how long immunity lasts or how strong it is after infection with any variant of SARS-CoV-2. A longer where would have to delve into the THEORY of immunity. We aren't able to test T cells as much as antibodies or active infections. As such, it's hard to know how much immunity lasts once antibodies are gone. Here's a link that will explain it in more detail. How ‘killer’ T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants. Emphasis on "could." We don't know for sure yet, so until we get confirmation on that, the vaccine is the only thing we have that's shown to provide a robust, long-term immunity. I can guarantee you that scientists are busting their asses on this line of research, though.

Hope that answers/addresses everything. Trying to respond before work. 🤙🏼

No ,generally "conservative media" has not advised against taking the vaccine, as I stated some have given info on side effects. Thats informing their viewers, then their viewers can decide themselves. The vaccine is experimental, if it wasn't the FDA would label it so, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Look at where they are going door to door giving vaccines, it isn't " conservative " areas. I live in a Conservative area, everyone I know has gotten the vaccine, I'm eligible for my second dose friday.

There is plenty of evidence that prior infection provides immunity, antibodies always go away from any infection once the infection is overcome. The reason this virus has hit so hard is due to no one ever coming into contact with it. Millions of people already have now, their bodies will recognize it now, and do its thing. JIt's the same reason the flu affects children more than adults. An adult has come into contact with the flu sometime prior in their life, children haven't, so their bodies don't recognize it.

The evidence does not show the vaccine provides better immunity than a prior infection. People that have gotten the vaccine still contract an infection, how many of the vaccinated that don't get infected had covid before? That seems like a valid question in determining the efficacy of the vaccine.
I have no doubt researchers are busting their tails, this isn't a knock on them, but they are also human. They don't like to be wrong or questioned, and there is billions upon billions of dollars flowing from the worlds Govts right now to these researchers.
The vaccine should be a personal choice to take. If you want it, take it, if you don't then don't. The govt forcing you to will not end well, because they won't stop there.

 

[kritikalcat]

I travel to different hospitals all the time for work. I can only speak on what Ive seen but before Covid, hospitals were always either at full capacity or very close to full. Hospitals around central Kentucky may be a different story but larger city facilities are always packed.
I never saw empty rooms until the pandemic started.

I hope you realize VAERS is an open database. I can post that my head fell off 2 minutes after my vaccine. I trust you can discern the problem with that.

The reporting may be accurate, but still not say what some people want it to say. It’s interesting that 52% of the reported deaths are male and males account for 52% of deaths in a typical year. 60% of deaths reported are in the 65-80 age cohort, and 65-80 accounts for … you guessed it, 60% of annual deaths. Looking down the line I’ll bet you find that the deaths reported to VAERS track very closely with expected deaths in that age/sex demographic. In other words, it’s more likely that getting the vaccine and mortality were coincidental not causal

 

[JPFisher]

1. you have no idea if someone is basing their decision from google or conspiracy news sites . what makes your information superior? the information upon which you rely, couldn't possibly be misleading or a flat out lie.
2. just because conservative media is starting to favor vaccines (as you claim). has nothing to do with one's right to choose vax or no vax.
3. trying to keep folks alive is admirable, but that does not give you the right to tell anyone how to live.
4. if an employer is ignorant of an employee's medical situation ( which should be the case) how can they be harboring potential health liabilities?
5. the vaccine being in an experimental stage is not an acceptable answer for you. (why say...there's a lot more that goes into it than just that) experimental stage vaccination is a damn good reason for not getting vaxed. regardless of (there's a lot more that goes into it than just that).
6. why should anyone answer this question you pose (why are you, personally, anti vaccine, or hesitant, or whatever stance you may be)? I'm sure any answer given will not satisfy, but will only provide more material to further the argument. which appears to be the real agenda here.
you seem like an intelligent person. why can you not see the danger in employer's dictating how employees get medical treatment . if you are of the opinion that it will ultimately save lives. ask yourself...where will employer dictation powers end and what quality of life is to be lived without freedom?

Ah. Now, I'm looking forward to responding to this one.

1. Google is merely an indexing site. Basically a giant catalog of websites like what libraries have with books. You can find whack job stuff on Google. It's a means to an end, and not an infallible source of factual information. Just like anything else in life, it depends on how you do something and what you're looking for.

What makes my information "superior" is the scientific method. I read primary literature and then I read articles written for the public. The articles written for the public that most closely mirror the scientific literature are the most correct at that time.

The beautiful thing about science is that it's not a body of set knowledge. Science is a methodology that constantly hones our understanding of the universe. It constantly improves.

Dude got lazy and didn't clean up one night. Goes on a trip. Comes back. Observes mold killing bacteria on some of his lab equipment. Huh, that's odd. Dude forms a hypothesis, runs some tests, gets results, disseminates his findings to the world. BOOM. Penicillin. Millions upon millions of civilian and military lives saved. The scientific method then honed antibiotics over decades and decades of wars and bacterial resistance.

Science is a constantly evolving field that often employs the scientific method: make an observation, research the hell out of it, make a hypothesis to test, run tests, analyze results, communicate results with the world.

That last one occurs on social media, at conferences, in magazines, articles, in bars over beers... You know how many cool scientific studies have been formulated on a bar napkin by a couple drunk PhD bros listening to Kenny Chesney in a small town pub? I sure as hell don't, but science is huge, so I can almost guarantee it's happened. The likelihood that it hasn't is infinitesimally small.

Anyway, I digress.

The point I'm trying to make is that unlike other sources of media that are trying to BS Americans or get money from clicks, science constantly improves. Other scientists scrutinize work because publishers have a reputation to uphold. Society progresses because science and experimentation drives it. We wouldn't have modern society: firearms, refrigeration, antibiotics, surgeries, pure O2, Mucinex, efficient homes, computers, allergy meds, vaccines, vehicles, electricity, lights, game management, forestry, fisheries management, over half the food we eat today, and so much more. All that is thanks to science and the innovations it's brought us. You and I may not understand the science behind the glowing screens we're talking on right now, but they work, and it's not by any miracle.

Nobody is perfect. Never will be. But it's the constant drive to become better and to more thoroughly understand our world that makes what I reference more credible than biased outlets trying to push an agenda or make $$$.

2. The "right" to choose to vax or not vax will lead to untold suffering later this year. In this case, someone's refusal of a vaccine can and does put the lives of others at risk. We now have laws against smoking indoors, drunk driving, and texting and driving. The person doing the act isn't the only one suffering. If kids are choking, getting asthma attacks, and cancers from a Cracker Barrel, the smoker isn't the only one suffering. If someone jumps a median into a family of four, the bad driver isn't the only one who suffers.

The Delta variant is believed to have an R0 of 6-8. That's an estimated six to eight additional people infected per every infection. It's not just about one person. It really isn't. And sure, some people might rationalize their decision with the "1% death rate" statistic. Sure. But 1% of the US is 3,282,000 Americans. That's just dead. That doesn't include survivors with lifelong problems. I'm not willing to risk that.

3. Just trying to help people make informed decisions.

4. Typhoid Mary. Ignorance to a problem doesn't mean it disappears.

5. The vaccines are no longer in the experimental stage. Anyone who has told you otherwise is trying to mislead you. The vaccines have gone through repeated trials and all phases necessary to validate their safety as much as possible.

In fact, Pfizer and Moderna have already submitted the necessary materials to gain full authorization via the FDA. I believe J&J will take a bit longer. It's believed that the 2-dosers will be fully authorized within the next two months. That doesn't happen to an experiment.

6. I ask questions to understand people better. I like to understand why someone believes what they believe, where they've heard it, what research they've done, etc. They're not obligated to tell me anything, but I'd be happy to answer questions myself as long as they don't threaten my anonymity. I'm a firm believer that the greatest threat today is Americans making assumptions about one another. That leads to tribalism and an "us versus them" mentality that leads to shit like we saw on January 6. It's not us and them. We're all Americans, by God, and we're all doing what we can to help this massive experiment in democracy work. But when we begin assuming, when we stop listening, when we begin to see other Americans as enemies, we start shedding blood. Again, I'm not willing to go down that road.

So, the short answer is that I'd like to have a better, more informed conversation with this person. The longer answer is that I want to open up lines of communication that have clearly been severed in recent decades.

"Well, it's the liberals' fault!"

"Well, it's the trumpists' fault"

"It's the moderates' fault!"

"It's the third party's fault!"

Bullshit. It's a breakdown that extends past political biases. We're all Americans, but we sure as hell don't act like it. If I can make a difference in that arena at all, I will.

In an ideal world, employees are able to quit low-paying jobs, jobs with poor work conditions, form a union to have more of a voice in the company, form their own business, communicate with their boss on issues, etc. If any of those fail-safes don't seem strong or feasible enough, then it signals a significant problem with modern America. And my friend, that's a whole other conversation.

My last point is this. You ask what quality of life there is without freedom. A fair question, but when someone becomes so dead-set on a viewpoint that they begin to hurt, or worse, pose a risk to the loves of others, I begin to scrutinize motives, decisions, and info that led to that point. Everyone loses freedom in a world where half the population is understandably cautious of a virus and willing to take necessary precautions, and half is not. Everyone.

So, what quality of life is there when a significant portion of the population has organ failure or dies from something preventable? It's not sensational. People are dying from a preventable virus every day. Weighing the probability and severity of side effects of the vaccines and the severity and impacts from the virus itself, I'm happy to roll the dice with two jabs.

Hope this clarified. See y'all at lunch, maybe. 🤙🏼

 

[CatsFanGG24]

There's a pretty solid reason not to take prior infection into account. The simple answer is we literally have no idea how long immunity lasts or how strong it is after infection with any variant of SARS-CoV-2. A longer where would have to delve into the THEORY of immunity. We aren't able to test T cells as much as antibodies or active infections. As such, it's hard to know how much immunity lasts once antibodies are gone. Here's a link that will explain it in more detail. How ‘killer’ T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants. Emphasis on "could." We don't know for sure yet, so until we get confirmation on that, the vaccine is the only thing we have that's shown to provide a robust, long-term immunity. I can guarantee you that scientists are busting their asses on this line of research, though.

This is terribly ignorant.

I'm all for vaccines, especially amongst the vulnerable and older age groups...but anyone hyping the vaccines and downplaying natural immunity loses all credibility.

 

[Chuckinden]

I can assure you that the closest thing to "liberal media" that I read or listen to is NPR, and that isn't often. I usually base how liberal a news media site is by how poorly they explain concepts related to firearms.

Conservative media has, generally, advised against vaccination over the last 6 months. It's a large part of the reason red states lag behind blue states in terms of vaccination per capita.

Reporting issues with the vaccine is noble. Making the issues seem much more common than they actually are or labeling them as experimental when they definitely aren't, isn't. ESPECIALLY when many reports cannot be verified, are spread across social media, and begin to feed into people's confirmation bias.

There's a pretty solid reason not to take prior infection into account. The simple answer is we literally have no idea how long immunity lasts or how strong it is after infection with any variant of SARS-CoV-2. A longer where would have to delve into the THEORY of immunity. We aren't able to test T cells as much as antibodies or active infections. As such, it's hard to know how much immunity lasts once antibodies are gone. Here's a link that will explain it in more detail. How ‘killer’ T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants. Emphasis on "could." We don't know for sure yet, so until we get confirmation on that, the vaccine is the only thing we have that's shown to provide a robust, long-term immunity. I can guarantee you that scientists are busting their asses on this line of research, though.

Hope that answers/addresses everything. Trying to respond before work. 🤙🏼

What is the difference between "conservative and liberal" media? They both spew a lot of nonsense.

 

[SDC8888]

What is the difference between "conservative and liberal" media?

Who pays the bills.

 

[Bill Derington]

Ah. Now, I'm looking forward to responding to this one.

1. Google is merely an indexing site. Basically a giant catalog of websites like what libraries have with books. You can find whack job stuff on Google. It's a means to an end, and not an infallible source of factual information. Just like anything else in life, it depends on how you do something and what you're looking for.

What makes my information "superior" is the scientific method. I read primary literature and then I read articles written for the public. The articles written for the public that most closely mirror the scientific literature are the most correct at that time.

The beautiful thing about science is that it's not a body of set knowledge. Science is a methodology that constantly hones our understanding of the universe. It constantly improves.

Dude got lazy and didn't clean up one night. Goes on a trip. Comes back. Observes mold killing bacteria on some of his lab equipment. Huh, that's odd. Dude forms a hypothesis, runs some tests, gets results, disseminates his findings to the world. BOOM. Penicillin. Millions upon millions of civilian and military lives saved. The scientific method then honed antibiotics over decades and decades of wars and bacterial resistance.

Science is a constantly evolving field that often employs the scientific method: make an observation, research the hell out of it, make a hypothesis to test, run tests, analyze results, communicate results with the world.

That last one occurs on social media, at conferences, in magazines, articles, in bars over beers... You know how many cool scientific studies have been formulated on a bar napkin by a couple drunk PhD bros listening to Kenny Chesney in a small town pub? I sure as hell don't, but science is huge, so I can almost guarantee it's happened. The likelihood that it hasn't is infinitesimally small.

Anyway, I digress.

The point I'm trying to make is that unlike other sources of media that are trying to BS Americans or get money from clicks, science constantly improves. Other scientists scrutinize work because publishers have a reputation to uphold. Society progresses because science and experimentation drives it. We wouldn't have modern society: firearms, refrigeration, antibiotics, surgeries, pure O2, Mucinex, efficient homes, computers, allergy meds, vaccines, vehicles, electricity, lights, game management, forestry, fisheries management, over half the food we eat today, and so much more. All that is thanks to science and the innovations it's brought us. You and I may not understand the science behind the glowing screens we're talking on right now, but they work, and it's not by any miracle.

Nobody is perfect. Never will be. But it's the constant drive to become better and to more thoroughly understand our world that makes what I reference more credible than biased outlets trying to push an agenda or make $$$.

2. The "right" to choose to vax or not vax will lead to untold suffering later this year. In this case, someone's refusal of a vaccine can and does put the lives of others at risk. We now have laws against smoking indoors, drunk driving, and texting and driving. The person doing the act isn't the only one suffering. If kids are choking, getting asthma attacks, and cancers from a Cracker Barrel, the smoker isn't the only one suffering. If someone jumps a median into a family of four, the bad driver isn't the only one who suffers.

The Delta variant is believed to have an R0 of 6-8. That's an estimated six to eight additional people infected per every infection. It's not just about one person. It really isn't. And sure, some people might rationalize their decision with the "1% death rate" statistic. Sure. But 1% of the US is 3,282,000 Americans. That's just dead. That doesn't include survivors with lifelong problems. I'm not willing to risk that.

3. Just trying to help people make informed decisions.

4. Typhoid Mary. Ignorance to an problem doesn't mean it disappears.

5. The vaccines are no longer in the experimental stage. Anyone who has told you otherwise is trying to mislead you. The vaccines have gone through repeated trials and all phases necessary to validate their safety as much as possible.

In fact, Pfizer and Moderna have already submitted the necessary materials to gain full authorization via the FDA. I believe J&J will take a bit longer. It's believed that the 2-dosers will be fully authorized within the next two months. That doesn't happen to an experiment.

6. I ask questions to understand people better. I like to understand why someone believes what they believe, where they've heard it, what research they've done, etc. They're not obligated to tell me anything, but I'd be happy to answer questions myself as long as they don't threaten my anonymity. I'm a firm believer that the greatest threat today is Americans making assumptions about one another. That leads to tribalism and an "us versus them" mentality that leads to shit like we saw on January 6. It's not us and them. We're all Americans, by God, and we're all doing what we can to help this massive experiment in democracy work. But when we begin assuming, when we stop listening, when we begin to see other Americans as enemies, we start shedding blood. Again, I'm not willing to go down that road.

So, the short answer is that I'd like to have a better, more informed conversation with this person. The longer answer is that I want to open up lines of communication that have clearly been severed in recent decades.

"Well, it's the liberals' fault!"

"Well, it's the trumpists' fault"

"It's the moderates' fault!"

"It's the third party's fault!"

Bullshit. It's a breakdown that extends past political biases. We're all Americans, but we sure as hell don't act like it. If I can make a difference in that arena at all, I will.

In an ideal world, employees are able to quit low-paying jobs, jobs with poor work conditions, form a union to have more of a voice in the company, form their own business, communicate with their boss on issues, etc. If any of those fail-safes don't seem strong or feasible enough, then it signals a significant problem with modern America. And my friend, that's a whole other conversation.

My last point is this. You ask what quality of life there is without freedom. A fair question, but when someone becomes so dead-set on a viewpoint that they begin to hurt or get others killed, I begin to scrutinize motives, decisions, and info that led to that point. Everyone loses freedom in a world where half the population is understandably cautious of a virus and willing to take necessary precautions, and half is not. Everyone.

So, what quality of life is there when a significant portion of the population has organ failure or dies from something preventable? It's not sensational. People are dying from a preventable virus every day. Weighing the probability and severity of side effects of the vaccines and the severity and impacts from the virus itself, I'm happy to roll the dice with two jabs.

Hope this clarified. See y'all at lunch, maybe. 🤙🏼

And thats your choice, as it is mine, but you, nor I have the right to decide how other people act. Thats called individual liberty.
You keep saying it will lead to more deaths, if I didn't get vaxxed how many would I kill, how many will I save by being vaxxed?? You can't answer that, no one can. So, it's lazy and disingenuous to suggest as such.

No, no one loses freedom in the world where half do and half don't, unless you're perfectly fine with the Govt limiting your god given freedom. You're fine with it now because it's something you believe in, what if next time it isn't. We start going down this road and the Govt won't let up, it'll just be something different next time.

Lastly, you keep mentioning tribalism, how it divides the country as if you're above it. Yet, at least 4 times you've singled out "conservatives" as a whole, or Conservative media, or that Trump blew it by "ripping off his mask", as if he is the reason the virus did virus things. Yet later you state that most other Western countries have similar death and case numbers as the US, those 2 things don't jive if it's Trumps doing in the US.
My point is the Govt can't save you from something like this, it's going to do it's thing, and we as a nation can't start giving up our livlihoods hoping to prevent it.
If you want the vaccine take it, if you don't, don't. You aren't a moral superior if you choose to take it, nor are you a degenerate if you don't.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

This is terribly ignorant.

I'm all for vaccines, especially amongst the vulnerable and older age groups...but anyone hyping the vaccines and downplaying natural immunity loses all credibility.

You so sure about that? https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/...e is that,seeing it and responding vigorously.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

You so sure about that? https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/#:~:text=A third difference is that,seeing it and responding vigorously.

Yes, very.

 

[JPFisher]

This is terribly ignorant.

I'm all for vaccines, especially amongst the vulnerable and older age groups...but anyone hyping the vaccines and downplaying natural immunity loses all credibility.

With all due respect, I disagree completely with your assessment, and implore you to ask questions or get clarification before you claim someone else's ignorance.

I'm not trying to downplay natural immunity. I'm trying to express that the responses to vaccines are more well known, more heavily studied, better able to be analyzed, and are typically much more consistent.

There's still a lot we don't know about native immune response to SARS-CoV-2. How do T cells and B cells react 3 months post-infection? 6? 12? How robust is any immune response after a given amount of time? How does natural immunity stand up to variants? There are a lot more deaths and variables to consider if we rely on infection to get us to herd immunity.

Now, native immunity has undoubtedly offered some protection. There is evidence suggesting there's some long-term protection. There's some evidence that, like many responses to other coronaviruses, the response begins to wane over time. The science isn't conclusive on that. There are millions of immune system interactions in your body every hour of every day. We need a way to standardize response and build a robust, known immunity, safely, across the population the best way we can.

Furthermore, we know that your risk of serious illness or harm is much greater with Covid than the vaccine. In any endeavor of conservation, medicine, economics, engineering, etc, a thorough cost-benefit analysis will be able to show the company, agency, or entity what consequences will arise from certain actions.

We must ask ourselves if the known benefit of vaccination fails to overcome the cost to lives, health, and economic prosperity that will undoubtedly come from additional years of this pandemic. For me, that's a resounding no.

And sure, at the end of the day, native immunity might end up offering some solid, long-term protection. But, I'd rather get a low-risk shot in the arm than risk a tube down the trachea.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

With all due respect, I disagree completely with your assessment, and implore you to ask questions or get clarification before you claim someone else's ignorance.

I'm not trying to downplay natural immunity. I'm trying to express that the responses to vaccines are more well known, more heavily studied, better able to be analyzed, and are typically much more consistent.

There's still a lot we don't know about native immune response to SARS-CoV-2. How do T cells and B cells react 3 months post-infection? 6? 12? How robust is any immune response after a given amount of time? How does natural immunity stand up to variants? There are a lot more deaths and variables to consider if we rely on infection to get us to herd immunity.

Now, native immunity has undoubtedly offered some protection. There is evidence suggesting there's some long-term protection. There's some evidence that, like many responses to other coronaviruses, the response begins to wane over time. The science isn't conclusive on that. There are millions of immune system interactions in your body every hour of every day. We need a way to standardize response and build a robust, known immunity, safely, across the population the best way we can.

Furthermore, we know that your risk of serious illness or harm is much greater with Covid than the vaccine. In any endeavor of conservation, medicine, economics, engineering, etc, a thorough cost-benefit analysis will be able to show the company, agency, or entity what consequences will arise from certain actions.

We must ask ourselves if the known benefit of vaccination fails to overcome the cost to lives, health, and economic prosperity that will undoubtedly come from additional years of this pandemic. For me, that's a resounding no.

And sure, at the end of the day, native immunity might end up offering some solid, long-term protection. But, I'd rather get a low-risk shot in the arm than risk a tube down the trachea.

It's obvious you haven't looked into natural immunity, studies/efficacy, real world performance etc - so I will stand by my comments that your statement was completely ignorant of it. You have questions - but the answers are out there if truly interested.

The lack of long term knowledge argument again is truly terrible and ignorant as well. Natural immunity can be observed for as long as the pandemic has existed - the clock started on it with the very first survivor...vaccine trials 6+ months later...vaccines in real world large scale, 12+ months later.

If you want to expand your knowledge on natural immunity, I will post...but you seem pretty sure of yourself and uninterested in it.

And to your last point - many people suffered an infection prior to the availability of a vaccine. The question isn't "is a vaccine less risk for a Sars2 naive individual than natural infection?" - the questions are "should recovered individuals use vaccine resources and would a vaccine be necessary for them" and "how does natural immunity (already acquired/post infection and recovery) stack up to a vaccine?" Answer: better in all real world performance standards (yes, even variants - see gamma miner study)...may show less AB titers in a lab study, good thing an immune response isnt all about ABs.

I think it's very important to not downplay immunity acquired from infection - people should know what they went through wasn't all for not.

Here - some beginner reading in case you do want to know:

Breakthrough Infections of SARS-CoV-2 Gamma Variant in Fully Vaccinated Gold Miners, French Guiana, 2021

Breakthrough Infections of SARS-CoV-2 Gamma Variant

wwwnc.cdc.gov

Longitudinal analysis shows durable and broad immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection with persisting antibody responses and memory B and T cells

Cohen et al. evaluate immune responses longitudinally in 254 COVID-19 patients over 8 months. SARS-CoV-2-specific binding and neutralizing antibodies exhibit biphasic decay, suggesting long-lived plasma cell generation. Memory B cells remain stable; CD4 and CD8 memory T cells are polyfunctional...

www.cell.com

Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19

The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.

www.nih.gov

No point vaccinating those who’ve had COVID-19: Cleveland Clinic study suggests

The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection. The study is currently available on the medRxiv* preprint server.

www.news-medical.net

Natural COVID infection provides similar protection to vaccines, Israeli study shows

Studies show people who contract COVID-19 are strongly protected against reinfection. An Israeli study published in April shows people who got the natural infection have similar— and, by some metrics, slightly higher— immune protection than those who got the vaccine. Other studies suggest...

www.wjla.com

_ and this, prior to Israel's reduced efficacy against infection from vaccination

SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans - Nature

SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells that correlate with anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike protein antibody titres in individuals who have recovered from COVID-19.

www.nature.com

 

[Tskware]

With all due respect, I disagree completely with your assessment, and implore you to ask questions or get clarification before you claim someone else's ignorance.

I'm not trying to downplay natural immunity. I'm trying to express that the responses to vaccines are more well known, more heavily studied, better able to be analyzed, and are typically much more consistent.

There's still a lot we don't know about native immune response to SARS-CoV-2. How do T cells and B cells react 3 months post-infection? 6? 12? How robust is any immune response after a given amount of time? How does natural immunity stand up to variants? There are a lot more deaths and variables to consider if we rely on infection to get us to herd immunity.

Now, native immunity has undoubtedly offered some protection. There is evidence suggesting there's some long-term protection. There's some evidence that, like many responses to other coronaviruses, the response begins to wane over time. The science isn't conclusive on that. There are millions of immune system interactions in your body every hour of every day. We need a way to standardize response and build a robust, known immunity, safely, across the population the best way we can.

Furthermore, we know that your risk of serious illness or harm is much greater with Covid than the vaccine. In any endeavor of conservation, medicine, economics, engineering, etc, a thorough cost-benefit analysis will be able to show the company, agency, or entity what consequences will arise from certain actions.

We must ask ourselves if the known benefit of vaccination fails to overcome the cost to lives, health, and economic prosperity that will undoubtedly come from additional years of this pandemic. For me, that's a resounding no.

And sure, at the end of the day, native immunity might end up offering some solid, long-term protection. But, I'd rather get a low-risk shot in the arm than risk a tube down the trachea.

JP, there are millions of people who just don't want to (refuse to, actually) listen to the scientific method about vaccines, climate change, or nearly anything that goes against their belief system, you can post all the facts in the world and they won't be budged an inch. Millions think the election was stolen despite a near total absence of any evidence. I read today where some poll showed a fairly high percentage of Americans believe the vaccines are being use to plant microchips or some such nonsense. So how do you counter that type of "thinking"? I appreciate your thoughts and efforts though.

P.S. Until today, I could honestly say that I did not personally know anyone who had died from Covid, but not anymore, I learned that a college classmate died this AM, leaving six adult children. And was told he did not get vaccinated. I really don't get it at all.

 

[Bill Derington]

JP, there are millions of people who just don't want to (refuse to, actually) listen to the scientific method about vaccines, climate change, or nearly anything that goes against their belief system, you can post all the facts in the world and they won't be budged an inch. Millions think the election was stolen despite a near total absence of any evidence. I read today where some poll showed a fairly high percentage of Americans believe the vaccines are being use to plant microchips or some such nonsense. So how do you counter that type of "thinking"? I appreciate your thoughts and efforts though.

P.S. Until today, I could honestly say that I did not personally know anyone who had died from Covid, but not anymore, I learned that a college classmate died this AM, leaving six adult children. And was told he did not get vaccinated. I really don't get it at all.

The election was stolen, there aren't micro chips in the vaccine.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Ah. Now, I'm looking forward to responding to this one.

1. Google is merely an indexing site. Basically a giant catalog of websites like what libraries have with books. You can find whack job stuff on Google. It's a means to an end, and not an infallible source of factual information. Just like anything else in life, it depends on how you do something and what you're looking for.

What makes my information "superior" is the scientific method. I read primary literature and then I read articles written for the public. The articles written for the public that most closely mirror the scientific literature are the most correct at that time.

The beautiful thing about science is that it's not a body of set knowledge. Science is a methodology that constantly hones our understanding of the universe. It constantly improves.

Dude got lazy and didn't clean up one night. Goes on a trip. Comes back. Observes mold killing bacteria on some of his lab equipment. Huh, that's odd. Dude forms a hypothesis, runs some tests, gets results, disseminates his findings to the world. BOOM. Penicillin. Millions upon millions of civilian and military lives saved. The scientific method then honed antibiotics over decades and decades of wars and bacterial resistance.

Science is a constantly evolving field that often employs the scientific method: make an observation, research the hell out of it, make a hypothesis to test, run tests, analyze results, communicate results with the world.

That last one occurs on social media, at conferences, in magazines, articles, in bars over beers... You know how many cool scientific studies have been formulated on a bar napkin by a couple drunk PhD bros listening to Kenny Chesney in a small town pub? I sure as hell don't, but science is huge, so I can almost guarantee it's happened. The likelihood that it hasn't is infinitesimally small.

Anyway, I digress.

The point I'm trying to make is that unlike other sources of media that are trying to BS Americans or get money from clicks, science constantly improves. Other scientists scrutinize work because publishers have a reputation to uphold. Society progresses because science and experimentation drives it. We wouldn't have modern society: firearms, refrigeration, antibiotics, surgeries, pure O2, Mucinex, efficient homes, computers, allergy meds, vaccines, vehicles, electricity, lights, game management, forestry, fisheries management, over half the food we eat today, and so much more. All that is thanks to science and the innovations it's brought us. You and I may not understand the science behind the glowing screens we're talking on right now, but they work, and it's not by any miracle.

Nobody is perfect. Never will be. But it's the constant drive to become better and to more thoroughly understand our world that makes what I reference more credible than biased outlets trying to push an agenda or make $$$.

2. The "right" to choose to vax or not vax will lead to untold suffering later this year. In this case, someone's refusal of a vaccine can and does put the lives of others at risk. We now have laws against smoking indoors, drunk driving, and texting and driving. The person doing the act isn't the only one suffering. If kids are choking, getting asthma attacks, and cancers from a Cracker Barrel, the smoker isn't the only one suffering. If someone jumps a median into a family of four, the bad driver isn't the only one who suffers.

The Delta variant is believed to have an R0 of 6-8. That's an estimated six to eight additional people infected per every infection. It's not just about one person. It really isn't. And sure, some people might rationalize their decision with the "1% death rate" statistic. Sure. But 1% of the US is 3,282,000 Americans. That's just dead. That doesn't include survivors with lifelong problems. I'm not willing to risk that.

3. Just trying to help people make informed decisions.

4. Typhoid Mary. Ignorance to a problem doesn't mean it disappears.

5. The vaccines are no longer in the experimental stage. Anyone who has told you otherwise is trying to mislead you. The vaccines have gone through repeated trials and all phases necessary to validate their safety as much as possible.

In fact, Pfizer and Moderna have already submitted the necessary materials to gain full authorization via the FDA. I believe J&J will take a bit longer. It's believed that the 2-dosers will be fully authorized within the next two months. That doesn't happen to an experiment.

6. I ask questions to understand people better. I like to understand why someone believes what they believe, where they've heard it, what research they've done, etc. They're not obligated to tell me anything, but I'd be happy to answer questions myself as long as they don't threaten my anonymity. I'm a firm believer that the greatest threat today is Americans making assumptions about one another. That leads to tribalism and an "us versus them" mentality that leads to shit like we saw on January 6. It's not us and them. We're all Americans, by God, and we're all doing what we can to help this massive experiment in democracy work. But when we begin assuming, when we stop listening, when we begin to see other Americans as enemies, we start shedding blood. Again, I'm not willing to go down that road.

So, the short answer is that I'd like to have a better, more informed conversation with this person. The longer answer is that I want to open up lines of communication that have clearly been severed in recent decades.

"Well, it's the liberals' fault!"

"Well, it's the trumpists' fault"

"It's the moderates' fault!"

"It's the third party's fault!"

Bullshit. It's a breakdown that extends past political biases. We're all Americans, but we sure as hell don't act like it. If I can make a difference in that arena at all, I will.

In an ideal world, employees are able to quit low-paying jobs, jobs with poor work conditions, form a union to have more of a voice in the company, form their own business, communicate with their boss on issues, etc. If any of those fail-safes don't seem strong or feasible enough, then it signals a significant problem with modern America. And my friend, that's a whole other conversation.

My last point is this. You ask what quality of life there is without freedom. A fair question, but when someone becomes so dead-set on a viewpoint that they begin to hurt, or worse, pose a risk to the loves of others, I begin to scrutinize motives, decisions, and info that led to that point. Everyone loses freedom in a world where half the population is understandably cautious of a virus and willing to take necessary precautions, and half is not. Everyone.

So, what quality of life is there when a significant portion of the population has organ failure or dies from something preventable? It's not sensational. People are dying from a preventable virus every day. Weighing the probability and severity of side effects of the vaccines and the severity and impacts from the virus itself, I'm happy to roll the dice with two jabs.

Hope this clarified. See y'all at lunch, maybe. 🤙🏼

ah now, I'm really not looking forward to this one, I feel I'm wasting my time. the only clarification in your response is the ability to avoid the real topic in this which is (personal freedom) and since you mentioned (God) your strong desire to imitate a God dictating how one should live. you still can not see how taking away one's ability to be free is wrong in every way. this has been proven throughout history. and frankly, if I need to explain this for you, this discussion needs to end.
See y'all at the nazi party rally...maybe

 

[Tskware]

The election was stolen, there aren't micro chips in the vaccine.

Sure it was . . .

 

[JPFisher]

1. And thats your choice, as it is mine, but you, nor I have the right to decide how other people act. Thats called individual liberty.

2. You keep saying it will lead to more deaths, if I didn't get vaxxed how many would I kill, how many will I save by being vaxxed?? You can't answer that, no one can. So, it's lazy and disingenuous to suggest as such.

3. No, no one loses freedom in the world where half do and half don't, unless you're perfectly fine with the Govt limiting your god given freedom. You're fine with it now because it's something you believe in, what if next time it isn't. We start going down this road and the Govt won't let up, it'll just be something different next time.

4. Lastly, you keep mentioning tribalism, how it divides the country as if you're above it. Yet, at least 4 times you've singled out "conservatives" as a whole, or Conservative media, or that Trump blew it by "ripping off his mask", as if he is the reason the virus did virus things. Yet later you state that most other Western countries have similar death and case numbers as the US, those 2 things don't jive if it's Trumps doing in the US.
My point is the Govt can't save you from something like this, it's going to do it's thing, and we as a nation can't start giving up our livlihoods hoping to prevent it.
If you want the vaccine take it, if you don't, don't. You aren't a moral superior if you choose to take it, nor are you a degenerate if you don't.

1. Individual liberty is good and right and among those things our country holds most dear (as it should)... Until someone's liberty gets someone's mother infected and damages her kidneys. What about her right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? She got vaccinated. She masked for others. She tried to distance. She didn't ask for organ damage. She did everything right. What then?

I am an ardent supporter of liberty and individual rights. I bitch and moan every time I have to submit for a TSA search. I paraphrased Ben Franklin's words to a TSA agent: "Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither." I'm strongly against regulations that give ATF teeth. For goodness sake, I have a veritable showroom's worth of firearms and I believe in Kentuckians' rights to distill their own liquor or grow/consume their own plants. I have a copy of Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" on my bookshelf. I've retained many of my libertarian ideals to this day even though I no longer identify with the party.

So I want you to believe me, however much you're able, when I say that I've labored over this point and thought it through very seriously. When the actions of one person can lead to the death or harm of another, a line has been crossed. Plain and simple.

The government shouldn't push the vaccine. I agree. But if a business or agency requires it of their employees so that business travel and research can commence, or airlines require it for travel, or schools require it of their students, or... You get the point. So be it. And I want to emphasize that this likely won't happen on a large scale until the FDA grants the vaccines full authorization.

2. Well, we can. Let's assume that the virus kills people 0.5% of the time, which is the lower estimate. If everyone in America is infected, that's ~1.6 million people. But let's assume deaths spike and overall quality of care (for all ICU and ER patients) suffers when hospitals triage patients and are at max capacity. Because they do. Tack on a few extra bodies.

Let's assume an R0 of 4 (which it isn't. Evidence suggests Delta is around 6 and 8) and one person infects another four. Also, I'm assuming we know what R0 is, but for those that might not, it can be simplified to the expected number of additional infections per person infected. I.e., if you have Covid, you're likely to spread it to X number of people. Those four infect another four. Those 16 infect another 64. Those 64 infect another....

Chances are solid that the one carrier impacted the lives of others. And yeah, that scenario I just built isn't true to life. Trust me, I work with models constantly. I know. There are varying levels of immunity blocking spread. The death rate is likely higher. The R0 is known to be higher. A thousand variables make a ton of differences. The point I'm trying to make with this argument is that one person can make a ton of difference, too.

Also, I know folks have done research on preventable deaths during Covid. For the life of me, I really don't feel like doing the digging again and doing a whole new literature review to prove a point. Vaccines prevent infection. Infections can lead to death or bodily harm.

3. To quote Greg Doucette, a man who will forget more about constitutional law in five minutes than I've known my entire life, "...the whole point of the Second Amendment is to increase the marginal costs of implementing fascism to a point where it's not worth the effort." The citizenry holds power. Always has.

Also, we ELECT the people who bullshit us and threaten our country's future. Red, blue, doesn't matter. There are schmucks on both sides, a worrying lack of communication across party lines, yellow dog voters, yellow journalism, tribalism, et al. It's on voters to do better - not politicians who sell us on bullshit ideals that they have no plan to pursue and certainly not grifters looking to cash in on hardworking Americans.

We gotta communicate better, send people to office who aren't full of shit, and ensure that we hold elected officials accountable through the failsafes and methods we have at our disposal.

I don't know how many times I've heard that X, Y, or Z was going to overthrow our democracy or take more control. Ain't a damn president since the 80s that hasn't circumvented congress and eroded the balance of power.

We gotta communicate better, run for office if we're so inclined, get a smart friend with a good set of ideals to run, write, petition, go grassroots, organize better, vote better, and vote every opportunity we get. If we don't, yeah, things might start to get a little haywire.

4. I've also stated that I'm human and that no matter how hard I try, I'll still fall short in these discussions. I've done what I can to make sure that I'm not placing the blame squarely on any one group, because that's not the case. It's been a complete and total all-points failure of a response.

I know a ton of conservatives who've gotten the jabs. I also know of one in the morgue right now because they refused the shots. At the end of the day, there's a reason red states lag behind in vaccination efforts. If it's not conservative talking heads, I'd be very interested in hearing what you believe is the culprit.

And to clarify, I don't want to attack conservatives. I want to get at aspects of conservatism or beliefs that have been curated that threaten the greater good. I get that you and I don't see eye-to-eye on everything. To me, that's fine. I don't see you or any conservative as a lesser human being. I don't see my liberal associates who think they're superior as lesser. What I'm trying to get at is the root of the problem, and if I've made it seem like I'm attacking you personally or any conservative (and not the problems we're facing as a country), then I apologize. Genuinely, I apologize if anything I've said has come off that way. Cohorts are a thing, though, and it's easier to talk about groups of people who share similar ideas rather than Tim, Bob, Jane, John, Bill, Mary, Margaret.... So yeah, some things might get lost in this medium, but it's not meant to be a condemnation of any group.

Now, I still reserve the right to criticize Trump's response to this mess. I reserve the right to criticize liberal leadership for crying, breaking down communications, and fighting instead of building connections and talking. I reserve the right to criticize organizations and agencies that did a poor job of communicating vaccine literacy long before rollouts. I reserve the right to criticize any media outlet in this modern era of yellow journalism. That's my 1A right as an American.

At the end of the day, tribalism leads us to see other Americans as the enemy. I am not your enemy. By God, I'm on your side, and I'm doing what I can to bridge trust. If I've fallen short, I'll take the blame and try to do better in the future. That's all I can promise.

---

I'm gonna come right out and say that I'm not morally superior to anyone. I'm just a UK sports fan trying to get by. My goal is to arm people with facts and arguments for the good of the country. There will be disagreements, and that's okay.

If, after all of our discussions, I haven't made you budge (and you haven't made me), that's fine. I said my piece. I put science and my rationale into the world. Maybe it'll change someone's mind. Maybe not. At the end of the day, I'll still drink beer and go fishing. 🤷🏻‍♂️

That said, I'm ducking out of this thread. I've presented information that I needed to and I've appealed to logic the best I can. At this point, I'm tired of new posters jumping in and compelling me to reiterate old points. I've said what I've said.

I hope you have a great rest of your week. Cheers. 🤙🏼

 

[Bill Derington]

1. Individual liberty is good and right and among those things our country holds most dear (as it should)... Until someone's liberty gets someone's mother infected and damages her kidneys. What about her right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? She got vaccinated. She masked for others. She tried to distance. She didn't ask for organ damage. She did everything right. What then?

I am an ardent supporter of liberty and individual rights. I bitch and moan every time I have to submit for a TSA search. I paraphrased Ben Franklin's words to a TSA agent: "Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither." I'm strongly against regulations that give ATF teeth. For goodness sake, I have a veritable showroom's worth of firearms and I believe in Kentuckians' rights to distill their own liquor or grow/consume their own plants. I have a copy of Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" on my bookshelf. I've retained many of my libertarian ideals to this day even though I no longer identify with the party.

So I want you to believe me, however much you're able, when I say that I've labored over this point and thought it through very seriously. When the actions of one person can lead to the death or harm of another, a line has been crossed. Plain and simple.

The government shouldn't push the vaccine. I agree. But if a business or agency requires it of their employees so that business travel and research can commence, or airlines require it for travel, or schools require it of their students, or... You get the point. So be it. And I want to emphasize that this likely won't happen on a large scale until the FDA grants the vaccines full authorization.

2. Well, we can. Let's assume that the virus kills people 0.5% of the time, which is the lower estimate. If everyone in America is infected, that's ~1.6 million people. But let's assume deaths spike and overall quality of care (for all ICU and ER patients) suffers when hospitals triage patients and are at max capacity. Because they do. Tack on a few extra bodies.

Let's assume an R0 of 4 (which it isn't. Evidence suggests Delta is around 6 and 8) and one person infects another four. Also, I'm assuming we know what R0 is, but for those that might not, it can be simplified to the expected number of additional infections per person infected. I.e., if you have Covid, you're likely to spread it to X number of people. Those four infect another four. Those 16 infect another 64. Those 64 infect another....

Chances are solid that the one carrier impacted the lives of others. And yeah, that scenario I just built isn't true to life. Trust me, I work with models constantly. I know. There are varying levels of immunity blocking spread. The death rate is likely higher. The R0 is known to be higher. A thousand variables make a ton of differences. The point I'm trying to make with this argument is that one person can make a ton of difference, too.

Also, I know folks have done research on preventable deaths during Covid. For the life of me, I really don't feel like doing the digging again and doing a whole new literature review to prove a point. Vaccines prevent infection. Infections can lead to death or bodily harm.

3. To quote Greg Doucette, a man who will forget more about constitutional law in five minutes than I've known my entire life, "...the whole point of the Second Amendment is to increase the marginal costs of implementing fascism to a point where it's not worth the effort." The citizenry holds power. Always has.

Also, we ELECT the people who bullshit us and threaten our country's future. Red, blue, doesn't matter. There are schmucks on both sides, a worrying lack of communication across party lines, yellow dog voters, yellow journalism, tribalism, et al. It's on voters to do better - not politicians who sell us on bullshit ideals that they have no plan to pursue and certainly not grifters looking to cash in on hardworking Americans.

We gotta communicate better, send people to office who aren't full of shit, and ensure that we hold elected officials accountable through the failsafes and methods we have at our disposal.

I don't know how many times I've heard that X, Y, or Z was going to overthrow our democracy or take more control. Ain't a damn president since the 80s that hasn't circumvented congress and eroded the balance of power.

We gotta communicate better, run for office if we're so inclined, get a smart friend with a good set of ideals to run, write, petition, go grassroots, organize better, vote better, and vote every opportunity we get. If we don't, yeah, things might start to get a little haywire.

4. I've also stated that I'm human and that no matter how hard I try, I'll still fall short in these discussions. I've done what I can to make sure that I'm not placing the blame squarely on any one group, because that's not the case. It's been a complete and total all-points failure of a response.

I know a ton of conservatives who've gotten the jabs. I also know of one in the morgue right now because they refused the shots. At the end of the day, there's a reason red states lag behind in vaccination efforts. If it's not conservative talking heads, I'd be very interested in hearing what you believe is the culprit.

And to clarify, I don't want to attack conservatives. I want to get at aspects of conservatism or beliefs that have been curated that threaten the greater good. I get that you and I don't see eye-to-eye on everything. To me, that's fine. I don't see you or any conservative as a lesser human being. I don't see my liberal associates who think they're superior as lesser. What I'm trying to get at is the root of the problem, and if I've made it seem like I'm attacking you personally or any conservative (and not the problems we're facing as a country), then I apologize. Genuinely, I apologize if anything I've said has come off that way. Cohorts are a thing, though, and it's easier to talk about groups of people who share similar ideas rather than Tim, Bob, Jane, John, Bill, Mary, Margaret.... So yeah, some things might get lost in this medium, but it's not meant to be a condemnation of any group.

Now, I still reserve the right to criticize Trump's response to this mess. I reserve the right to criticize liberal leadership for crying, breaking down communications, and fighting instead of building connections and talking. I reserve the right to criticize organizations and agencies that did a poor job of communicating vaccine literacy long before rollouts. I reserve the right to criticize any media outlet in this modern era of yellow journalism. That's my 1A right as an American.

At the end of the day, tribalism leads us to see other Americans as the enemy. I am not your enemy. By God, I'm on your side, and I'm doing what I can to bridge trust. If I've fallen short, I'll take the blame and try to do better in the future. That's all I can promise.

---

I'm gonna come right out and say that I'm not morally superior to anyone. I'm just a UK sports fan trying to get by. My goal is to arm people with facts and arguments for the good of the country. There will be disagreements, and that's okay.

If, after all of our discussions, I haven't made you budge (and you haven't made me), that's fine. I said my piece. I put science and my rationale into the world. Maybe it'll change someone's mind. Maybe not. At the end of the day, I'll still drink beer and go fishing. 🤷🏻‍♂️

That said, I'm ducking out of this thread. I've presented information that I needed to and I've appealed to logic the best I can. At this point, I'm tired of new posters jumping in and compelling me to reiterate old points. I've said what I've said.

I hope you have a great rest of your week. Cheers. 🤙🏼

Again, if I choose to not get my second dose, can you state for certain that I will cause someone to die? Of course not, just like you can't with any other illness. That is the rub with me, not with you imparticular, but we've started using generaliztions, and approximations to actually affect real life. If you think the Govt will just do the honorable thing, and give up that chokehold, well, George Washington ain't walking through that door.

The problem with living strictly by science is because science is ever changing. Take Dr Fauci for instance, only becasue he's high profile. He's never wrong, the science changes according to him. He didn't lie, the science changed, so he's never accountable for BS he puts us through. Science should never intrude on our liberty until it's proven, or we'll be in a constant whirlwind with no accountability.

I don't think you're an enemy, I just have an issue when people think they are the only voice that matters on this, the track record of "science" this past year hasn't been all that great. We shutdown for 2 weeks to flatten the curve, that turned into a year in some locales, and it didn't change anything, hell, it might have extended the pandemic.. We couldn't protest the lockdowns, but BLM protests were ok per science, we can't go to work, but hooking up on Tinder was ok.

If we don't take a stand as a Country, will wake up one day and not recognize it, if we arent already there.

 

[Nbacats]

The hell is the deal with these books y'all are writing for posts on this page? IF I wanted to read a book I'd pick up my Kindle!

 

[drawing_dead]

brevity is the soul of wit, or something like that...

 

[Joerules19]

The election was stolen, there aren't micro chips in the vaccine.

Still waiting to hear your theory on why Rudy intentionally held that presser at the four seasons next to the dildo shop?

 

[Bill Derington]

Still waiting to hear your theory on why Rudy intentionally held that presser at the four seasons next to the dildo shop?

Lol, you’re all about the “ dildo shop” next door. Nevermind the countless irregularities, states going around voting laws, unaccounted ballot boxes, millions of unaccounted absentee ballots after vote totals were known on Election Day. There was a “ dildo shop” next door!!

 

[UKnCincy]

I hope you realize VAERS is an open database. I can post that my head fell off 2 minutes after my vaccine. I trust you can discern the problem with that.

For his next trick, he’s going to analyze the anonymous tips received by Crimestoppers over the past 12 months to determine how many murders and robberies have occurred.

 

[SDC8888]

Sure it was . . .

The same mind that will take their word for it that 18 of 19 bellweather counties simply failed to predict the "winner," and other statistical improbabilities or impossibilities like 100-0 ballot dumps, is the same mind that is going to take big Pharma and their 9 newly minted covid billionaires word for it.

It's the same mind that isn't going to recognize the bastardized statistics when they tell you, "99.9% of covid cases were unvaccinated, can't wait till I can vax my 8 yea-rold!" when no healthy American child has died from the virus and plenty of current symptomatic cases were vaccinated.

It's the same mind that is eagerly going to blame the "political other" or the "unvaccinated" unclean when most not vaccinated are simply young/urban and the delta variant is very clearly being passed significantly by the vaccinated.

But congratulatoins on you being so smart to realize they probably didn't inject you with chips that ocmmunicate with 5g towers like your acquaintance on Facebook thinks.

 

[kritikalcat]

The same mind that will take their word for it that 18 of 19 bellweather counties simply failed to predict the "winner," and other statistical improbabilities or impossibilities like 100-0 ballot dumps,

The bellwether counties are overwhelmingly white and less educated, a demographic that tracked closely with nationwide voting trends prior to Trump but has diverged since. It’s no more a proof of fraud than the claims related to down ballot voting in Kentucky prove fraud by McConnell or Bevin (in his first run) though lots of my Democratic friends insisted “these patterns have never been broken” there were very clear reasons why they were broken that didn’t involve fraud.

And 100-0 ballot dumps are a myth. Ballot dumps changed results both ways.

 

[kritikalcat]

Again, if I choose to not get my second dose, can you state for certain that I will cause someone to die? Of course not, just like you can't with any other illness. That is the rub with me, not with you imparticular, but we've started using generaliztions, and approximations to actually affect real life…

of course no one can prove that you individually will cause someone to die by refusing vaccination. One can only look at evidence suggesting that high vaccination levels will slow / stop the spread.

We shutdown for 2 weeks to flatten the curve, that turned into a year in some locales, and it didn't change anything, hell, it might have extended the pandemic.. We couldn't protest the lockdowns, but BLM protests were ok per science

I thought targeted shutdowns and restrictions made more sense than blanket shutdowns. An early super spreader eas agency staff in nursing homes who work in multiple long term care facilities on an as needed basis. They would work in one facility then spread Covid to another facility as well as to the general population when off work. Keeping family out from seeing their loved ones was defeated by aides and nurses and cleaning staff moving freely from one location to another.

that noted, shutdowns didn’t work because they weren’t tough enough and too many people didn’t respect them, including politicians who outright mocked and defied them.

Now about BLM and anti lockdown protests. First, there was no widespread suppression of anti lockdown protests, pro Trump rallies, etc. I won’t say it never happened but hundreds of such protests happened on a large scale and mostly without strong negative response from officials or police.

Yes, there is data that BLM protests did not lead to increase. covid19 rates, but not because they were somehow safer than other protests. Cell phone tracking data shows that when BLM protests hit a city a larger portion of the non protesting residents of that city stayed indoors. So it’s not that the protests themselves were safe, but everyone else increased their level of isolation and social distancing

 

[Tskware]

The bellwether counties are overwhelmingly white and less educated, a demographic that tracked closely with nationwide voting trends prior to Trump but has diverged since. It’s no more a proof of fraud than the claims related to down ballot voting in Kentucky prove fraud by McConnell or Bevin (in his first run) though lots of my Democratic friends insisted “these patterns have never been broken” there were very clear reasons why they were broken that didn’t involve fraud.

And 100-0 ballot dumps are a myth. Ballot dumps changed results both ways.

KK: There is no need to argue or cite MSM so called "facts". Trump even won by a landslide in California!! I heard him say so at one of his rallies. Besides, this will all be moot when Trump is reinstated next month, just like the Kraaken and Pillow Man have stated. And Q backs them up, 100%.

 

[Bill Derington]

The bellwether counties are overwhelmingly white and less educated, a demographic that tracked closely with nationwide voting trends prior to Trump but has diverged since. It’s no more a proof of fraud than the claims related to down ballot voting in Kentucky prove fraud by McConnell or Bevin (in his first run) though lots of my Democratic friends insisted “these patterns have never been broken” there were very clear reasons why they were broken that didn’t involve fraud.

And 100-0 ballot dumps are a myth. Ballot dumps changed results both ways.

BS on the bellwether county excuse, and no one is saying it’s “ proof”, it’s an blaring irregularity, one of many.
In PA there was a 570000 to 3600 vote dump after totals from Election Day were known, in favor of Biden. That isn’t 100%, but it’s damn close.
There were millions of unaccounted absentee ballots that no one knew if they had been filled out or not, after Election Day totals were known. There were also drop boxes that had no accountability floating around.
That doesn’t even take into account governors, and secretary of states bypassing election laws, or Zuckerberg dropping millions of dollars in select cities around the country. That isn’t how you run an election, it’s how you steal an election.

 

[Bill Derington]

of course no one can prove that you individually will cause someone to die by refusing vaccination. One can only look at evidence suggesting that high vaccination levels will slow / stop the spread.

We shutdown for 2 weeks to flatten the curve, that turned into a year in some locales, and it didn't change anything, hell, it might have extended the pandemic.. We couldn't protest the lockdowns, but BLM protests were ok per science

I thought targeted shutdowns and restrictions made more sense than blanket shutdowns. An early super spreader eas agency staff in nursing homes who work in multiple long term care facilities on an as needed basis. They would work in one facility then spread Covid to another facility as well as to the general population when off work. Keeping family out from seeing their loved ones was defeated by aides and nurses and cleaning staff moving freely from one location to another.

that noted, shutdowns didn’t work because they weren’t tough enough and too many people didn’t respect them, including politicians who outright mocked and defied them.

Now about BLM and anti lockdown protests. First, there was no widespread suppression of anti lockdown protests, pro Trump rallies, etc. I won’t say it never happened but hundreds of such protests happened on a large scale and mostly without strong negative response from officials or police.

Yes, there is data that BLM protests did not lead to increase. covid19 rates, but not because they were somehow safer than other protests. Cell phone tracking data shows that when BLM protests hit a city a larger portion of the non protesting residents of that city stayed indoors. So it’s not that the protests themselves were safe, but everyone else increased their level of isolation and social distancing

I didn’t say there was suppression, I said the same “ science” said they were a danger, and a week later the BLM protests were fine by them.
The 2 weeks to stop the spread were not mocked or ignored, people were onboard for that, and then it continued on and on. It was never going to work, you can’t shutdown and stop a virus. Instead of blowing through its inevitable path, it dragged it out because less people came into contact with it.

Then stop demonizing people that don’t get the vaccine. The more you do that, the less likely someone who’s on the fence will get it, it becomes a challenge at that point.

 

[Bill Derington]

KK: There is no need to argue or cite MSM so called "facts". Trump even won by a landslide in California!! I heard him say so at one of his rallies. Besides, this will all be moot when Trump is reinstated next month, just like the Kraaken and Pillow Man have stated. And Q backs them up, 100%.

Quick..deflect!!!

 

[SDC8888]

KK: There is no need to argue or cite MSM so called "facts". Trump even won by a landslide in California!! I heard him say so at one of his rallies. Besides, this will all be moot when Trump is reinstated next month, just like the Kraaken and Pillow Man have stated. And Q backs them up, 100%.

This is just flaunting your ignorance and naivete to ease your cognitive dissonance. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's true.

The only thing you show there is that you, like the rest of the new American leftists eager to serve corrupt and incompetent politicians, aren't worthy of serious discourse.

 

[SDC8888]

The bellwether counties are overwhelmingly white and less educated, a demographic that tracked closely with nationwide voting trends prior to Trump but has diverged since. It’s no more a proof of fraud than the claims related to down ballot voting in Kentucky prove fraud by McConnell or Bevin (in his first run) though lots of my Democratic friends insisted “these patterns have never been broken” there were very clear reasons why they were broken that didn’t involve fraud.

And 100-0 ballot dumps are a myth. Ballot dumps changed results both ways.

I already knew what the rationalizations were.

 

[Father Torque]

This is just flaunting your ignorance and naivete to ease your cognitive dissonance. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's true.

The only thing you show there is that you, like the rest of the new American leftists eager to serve corrupt and incompetent politicians, aren't worthy of serious discourse.

Vaccine makes you magnetic
Vaccine has microchip in it
Qanon
Flat earther
Moon landing was a hoax
Bilderberger
Lizard people

Just let us know which of those you believe in so we know who we are dealing with.

 

[Tskware]

This is just flaunting your ignorance and naivete to ease your cognitive dissonance. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's true.

The only thing you show there is that you, like the rest of the new American leftists eager to serve corrupt and incompetent politicians, aren't worthy of serious discourse.

And your last statement at least is entirely accurate, all these ridiculous election theories have more holes than swiss cheese and are absolutely not worthy of serious discourse, to which every court and public official who has looked at agrees, and therefore no one is going to spend any more time arguing about it, least of all me.

 

[SDC8888]

And your last statement at least is entirely accurate, all these ridiculous election theories have more holes than swiss cheese and are absolutely not worthy of serious discourse, to which every court and public official who has looked at agrees, and therefore no one is going to spend any more time arguing about it, least of all me.

You'd just set up some Q anon strawman to argue against.

You leftist fools can't really debate anything outside of your own equally insane delusions.

 

[SDC8888]

Vaccine makes you magnetic
Vaccine has microchip in it
Qanon
Flat earther
Moon landing was a hoax
Bilderberger
Lizard people

Just let us know which of those you believe in so we know who we are dealing with.

None of the above, but thanks for demonstrating my point.