Forde Trolling Again.
- Thread starter MWes11
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This thread was made just for you:
http://kentucky.forums.rivals.com/threads/the-myth-of-cal-only-recruiting-oads.102321/
17 players since Cal arrived were recruited that were not expected to be OAD...
How is that a fair argument on both sides?
The freshmen were getting eaten on defense - debatable
Cal chose Harrisons over winning the game - your opinion, not debatable
I did the research on this a month or two ago. They - the ones having at least 6 final fours - are all bunched up really close. To get a meaningful comparison, you have to compare the record of each thru his 6th trip. Otherwise, you're allowing for the later rehabilitation of the record - for example, Roy and Pitino each won a title in their 7th final four, and that 2-0 trip boosted the record they had thru 6, which looked very much like Cal's. And K, of course, has done much better in his last 6 final fours than he did the first 6. Easy enough to forget how he "couldn't win the big one" for a long time. I've never gotten around to posting that research, mostly because I couldn't decide how to condense a lot of numbers into an easily digestible post....
Now I need to grow up?
Because I do not believe that a college coach who has Cal's record would jeopardize a championship so two kids could get drafted higher by playing 5 more minutes?
Because I do not believe that what Cal says post season at a corporate event or at the draft had any bearing on us losing one game in the last few minutes?
Because I don't agree with you that Cal doesn't build a roster the right way? You assume he only recruits OADs and yet I show you 17 recruits in the last few years that were not considered OAD?
Your takes seem a bit immature.
BBFGa
To tone the rhetoric down a bit and get back to mutually respectful conversation, I would like to hear your reasoning on your takes in one post, to maybe better understand your point.
1. You disagree with Cal as to the components of a successful roster. You have suggested more Darius Miller types. I offered you the list of 17 players who were recruited and NOT expected to be OADs since Cal has arrived.
Please provide your rebuttal.
2. You have stated that Cal chose the the Harrison's draft value in playing them the last 5 minutes over winning against Wisc. I would say there is more evidence that the Harrisons proved to be clutch players at the end of big games as evidence of last years tourney run and the fact that Ulis and Booker were getting burned on the defensive end.
Please tell us why the draft stock in playing 5 minutes overrides the other possibilities and what proof you may have that he did this.
I would also add that if we had won that game the title game would have increased the Harrisons' stock more than those last 5 minutes.
3. You suggested that Cal is 2nd to last in winning NC with 6 or more FF's. Factual statement, however you neglected to mention that others above him had a worse % at the same time of their careers and all except K, Rupp and Wooden have only one more title than he does with 2.
Can you see how that may have been construed as a jab?
Just trying to get back to civilized conversation.
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Look, we all hated losing to Wisconsin. We were THIS close to immortality, and we folded under the pressure those last four minutes. It hurts. No denying that.
But don't throw Cal under the bus over it. Take it like a man. Do you think 2011 Ohio State and UNC, 2014 Wichita State, Louisville, Michigan and Wisconsin should all rip their coaches because they had the better team and lost? Did our play and Cal's coaching not have anything to do with those teams losing to us?
The NCAA tournament requires luck and skill. I can think of three or four times where unfair seeding cost us a title. I can also think of a couple times we were the ones who got lucky. You have to take the good and the bad.
If you can't give credit to the other team, you shouldn't follow sports. Period. Bob Huggins outcoached Cal in 2010. Hats off to him. Cal overcame an eight point halftime deficit against him the next year, then beat him by 39 points last year. Conversely, Cal beat Bo Ryan despite Wisconsin being six seeds higher in 2014, then Ryan brought the same team back and beat us a year later.
Quit trying to assess blame. Be proud of the fact that for the first time in 24 years, someone entered the Final Four unbeaten. That team had seniors that had won the year before. We were the fifth youngest team in basketball.
We put four more lottery picks into the NBA, and we're loaded up again for next year. Probably the only team returning to the Final Four.
But don't throw Cal under the bus over it. Take it like a man. Do you think 2011 Ohio State and UNC, 2014 Wichita State, Louisville, Michigan and Wisconsin should all rip their coaches because they had the better team and lost? Did our play and Cal's coaching not have anything to do with those teams losing to us?
The NCAA tournament requires luck and skill. I can think of three or four times where unfair seeding cost us a title. I can also think of a couple times we were the ones who got lucky. You have to take the good and the bad.
If you can't give credit to the other team, you shouldn't follow sports. Period. Bob Huggins outcoached Cal in 2010. Hats off to him. Cal overcame an eight point halftime deficit against him the next year, then beat him by 39 points last year. Conversely, Cal beat Bo Ryan despite Wisconsin being six seeds higher in 2014, then Ryan brought the same team back and beat us a year later.
Quit trying to assess blame. Be proud of the fact that for the first time in 24 years, someone entered the Final Four unbeaten. That team had seniors that had won the year before. We were the fifth youngest team in basketball.
We put four more lottery picks into the NBA, and we're loaded up again for next year. Probably the only team returning to the Final Four.
For those complaining about Cal going with the twins late in the Wisconsin game, he was going with two guys that had won 43 of their last 44 games, and got to two FFs. But he sucks because as a team we played poorly in a 5 minute stretch? Ok.
Wow. I QUOTED YOU. That is the point. Nice deflection. Ty for playing. Better luck next time.
Me too, sorry for getting irritated earlier.
1. Yes, many were expected to be, well, two and thrus, but our success changed that. Worked out for some, didn't for others. I have never waivered since Cal has been here, I don't believe a group of elite freshmen and sophomores can win the NC. They NEED those solid role players beside them. Much like you don't see an NBA champion with 5 all stars starting. Cal does a brilliant job of bringing these kids together but at crunch time, it hasn't been enough. Only once has it sort of worked and that was with a freak player in AD which we may never see the likes of again and a very solid senior in Darius. Perhaps you can show me the evidence of when Cals approach has ever actually worked for winning titles.
2. Hmm, well, this one is all opinion. I'll stand by mine. As for your final statement, that has been my argument about Cals "goals" statements all along. Nothing gets the NBA's eye more than winners. It confounds me why Cal doesn't say our goal is to win a title so he can showcase his players at the highest level and get X drafted.
3. This one will be answered in our next final four. I think we may have a better shot at winning this year as opposed to last. You are incorrect, only Dean Smith had a worse record after his 6th final four appearance. It isn't a jab but a criticism. That is still allowed, correct? For twenty years I ranted on K, the coach who did less with more than any coach out there. We are dangerously close to that now.
Now, one question from me. What if Cal is dead serious when he says getting players drafted is his primary goal. How would you respond to that?
Ok, maybe I am dense, but how exactly is Cal supposedly caring more about NBA drafts than titles supposed to be manifesting itself? Outside the debatable issue of playing Ulis more in the Wisconsin game, what is he doing that hurts our chances of winning titles in favor of helping players' draft stock? Just curious what I am missing.
Very good post kybassfan, I think you hit the nail on the head. The fans of NC should be the very first to want their house cleaned of these violators. You cannot help your team by trying to make excuses for their violations of the rules.
I well remember the situation at UK back in the Sutton days you mentioned. Some fans couldn't understand why I was in favor of how the President handled the situation. I imagine there are lots of fans who still would criticize the NCAA if they found their team cheating thinking the NCAA is bias.
This sort of thing can kill college basketball if the fans continue to ridicule the NCAA and deny any violations using the excuse of "We didn't know" that might have occurred. Every NCAA school should be supporting the NCAA publicly, they have a very tough job.
This situation at NC is sickening because they let it linger on for years, hoping it would go away.
If I knew my favorite team was involved in any kind of cheating, I would turn them in myself to the NCAA. There is no excuse for cheating.
There have been several cases where sports writers were instrumental in exposing violations by the coaches or players and they are still criticized for it. jmho
Well, I think it was Larry Brown who told him if he picked a 7 man rotation from this last team, they wouldn't be beatable. I was for platooning, but in hind sight Browns comments make sense. That core rotation should be more efficient due to their time on the court and together. Cal didn't do that and stated clearly that it wasn't fair to the other guys. Which way is right? I don't know but Cal opens the door of doubt when he states his pre season goal was 8 draft picks, not a NC. He lost out on both.
This was for Silents.
This was for Silents.
Thanks for the response. My thoughts to your comments:
1. We have been to 4 final fours since Cal has been here. 2 surprise runs and 2 as favorites. He is batting 50% as a favorite here.
I would say that him having that talent put him in a situation to possibly win more titles. One could argue: more FF's = more titles. Our last 10 years had lesser talent and we had zero FFS and zero Titles.
I am curious as to what lesser player you would choose and what 5* you would have replaced for us in 2011, 2014, and 2015 that would have propelled us to the victory?
2. Do you think the NBA doesn't consider FF participants as winners? Only if they win a title they are a winner?
I believe Cal has proven that his philosophy of come to UK and get better to fulfill your dreams to the NBA is working much better than come to UK so we can use you to win more titles.
People also seem to forget that every time Cal says come here to become the best you can be to fulfill your dreams he adds, you must learn to sacrifice for your team and be your brother's keeper. Why does this go unnoticed?
3. You can criticize the guy for losing a game all you want. Lots of great coaches have lost in the NCAA with great teams. Self does it all the time.
But it is not like we are flaming out in the 2nd round, we are in the title game or semi game. And again if you want to blame Cal's coaching I'm cool with that, I do too. But him sharing his values have nothing to do with how we lost the last 5 minutes of that game, or missing FT's against UConn, or missing everything against WVU.
"Now, one question from me. What if Cal is dead serious when he says getting players drafted is his primary goal. How would you respond to that?"
I can honestly say that I do not care what his goals are as long as he produces at a very high level. I can see that his values and goals directly correlate with a win-win for the university and its players.
"We care about you kid, we will help you obtain your dream, just like every other student we have. All we ask of you is to give yourself up to the team during the season, don't be selfish, and be the best teammate you can be."
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Actually, I'm of the opinion that we were most formidable when we were platooning.
The Poythress injury is what effectively ended that juggernaut.
Great discussion you guys are having, btw - not trying to hi-jack anything. But to add to what BBfanGa is sort of getting at - actually both of you are sort of saying similar things from different directions - the historical standard has a voice of it's own in this topic. The UK men's program has won 8 titles, and never once has any of those titles been won without significant contribution from not only "experienced role players," but also players recruited from within this state: Kentucky.
No, I'm not saying you must have in-state kids to win. But in all likelihood, where are such "experienced role players" going to come from? Oddly, even when you have an alternative: Alex Poythress, you've basically got a kid just a golf ball's drive outside of the state (Clarksville, TN).
So plenty of us aging, veteran fans are all excited for that first time ever that UK wins a national title without significant contribution from "experienced role players" and from the benefit of "in-state Kentucky kids" (e.g. Darius Miller, D.A., Epps, Mills, Padgett, Givens, James Lee, etc.). We're all for it. It'll be a first.
I'm not sure I share your opinion on my question. I think Cal will put a player before the program at any opportunity, program be damned. That is the simple difference of opinion you and I have.
Look no further than the Harrison's, love the kids but Ulis and Booker were better. There is no dispute there. That is the problem with having too many elite players.
So... the five minutes of one game is all you have?
And the twins leading us to the title game last year carrying us to so many close victories had nothing to do with it?
The fact that Ulis was being backed down by both UW point guards and Booker getting decimated on switches had nothing to do with it?
You think Cal said I have to leave the twins in 5 more minutes to help their NBA stock? Damn the title game, these boys are going to play these last five minutes.
And the twins leading us to the title game last year carrying us to so many close victories had nothing to do with it?
The fact that Ulis was being backed down by both UW point guards and Booker getting decimated on switches had nothing to do with it?
You think Cal said I have to leave the twins in 5 more minutes to help their NBA stock? Damn the title game, these boys are going to play these last five minutes.
All four are talented and brought different attributes to the court. I don't think we win 38 straight games without all 4 of them.
Making blanket statements like, "there is no dispute there" further highlights your narrow-minded, agenda driven posting.
ugh.....I wish fans would stop making his success relative to average coaches and using it as justification. There shouldn't be a situation where someone even brings Tubby Smith into the conversation, and it happens routinely. Cal is so far above that level, why would anyone judge him on that? Cal accepted this job years ago, so it's time to let go of "we had tubby!" comments. We were worthy of much more than Tubby Smith or Billy Clyde Gillispie.
I judge Cal on the greats. I will never judge him on the success of the coach before him at Uk, or the shortcomings of Tubby Smith. I will judge him next to coach K, Rick Pitino, Bob Knight, Dean Smith*, Adolph Rupp, etc. It's a high bar, but Cal placed that bar.
Not to derail....
I judge Cal on the greats. I will never judge him on the success of the coach before him at Uk, or the shortcomings of Tubby Smith. I will judge him next to coach K, Rick Pitino, Bob Knight, Dean Smith*, Adolph Rupp, etc. It's a high bar, but Cal placed that bar.
Not to derail....
I think they all contributed as well.
But Cal handled that how he needed to. They worked decently well off of each other, and there was no team issues. When we needed to put Ulis on the ball, he did. There were several times Andrew seemed a bit teed off due to being off the ball.
I also think Ulis is probably the better point guard but it is what it is. I think it was handled well.
I didn't say that either. You have a bad habit of putting your words in other posters mouths..
If I had to choose, I'd take Ulis and Booker on offense and let our bigs help on defense. If Cal chose that route, it would have brought doubt into the equation with the Harrison's. He didn't choose that and I expected nothing different from him. I appreciate loyalty, but loyalty isn't always your best friend.
saying there is no dispute...is not an debatable opinion ...that is a "fact" in your head...
All you are doing then is trolling...you are not even trying to debate.
GABlue, Still not sure what coach you think would bring the same amount of talent, manage the egos and win more titles...Can you help everyone out?
That's not the crux of the situation. Not sure how many on here think Andrew or even Aaron were the best options during the end of the game (although Booker wasn't shooting at all that game).
You can debate who he should have played, I think Ulis would have been better on the offensive end but he was struggling on defense.
Cal goes with defense.
Saying he kept the twins in because he was loyal to them and not just simply the best option in his opinion is kind of mind boggling.
Just like you saying he doesn't put rosters together very well and we would have more NCs if he would simply recruit lesser talents. Although I showed you 17 non OAD's he has recruited here.
You have yet to tell me which 5*'s you would replace with lesser talents in 2011, 2014, and 2015?
You are bringing zero evidence and stating your opinions as fact.
If this is all simply your opinion then just say that and lets drop it.
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This thread has been a good debate with a range of different opinions. I want to put my 2 cents in. I think Cal was trying to please all or some of the players he promised playing time by using the two platoon system. Don't know that to be a fact but it sure looked that way. Some will say he never promises playing time, but I'm sure it was discussed with each player when you have that many elite players that can play. They would elect to go elsewhere if it wasn't offered. I think last year was the first time he has had playing time as an issue. Anyway thats why the players takes visits to find the best offer right? lol
I don't think the two platooning system works to make the team sharper or more competitive, however it does let the coach keep the playing time more evenly. You have better control of matching up with the opposition on the floor when you use a 7-8 man rotation.
I think its better to find out who your best 7-8 players are and what lineup plays the best as a team etc. Having 7-8 players in competition for 5 spots will get you more effort from those players than platooning.
The platooning helped Booker probably more than any other player and hurt Lyles more in my opinion.
Thanks for letting me jump in this discussion. jmho
I am stating my opinion, not fact. Please get that right in your head. I would not recruit 6 5*'s. It's great from a talent perspective and draft night perspective. Not so great on the NC perspective. What happens when they all leave early? You are so blind by your love of Cal, you refuse to see what is right in front of you. Again, name the NC teams who have done it without significant upper classmen contributions. Since I have answered your questions, I will wait for your answer.
This is your observation. You are not alone. I don't share it precisely. But just imagine if the exact opposite were true: the image of a UK coach putting the program before the players at all opportunities, players be damned. How difficult would it be to recruit?
Consider also for random comparison a former coach who now coaches in another city within the Commonwealth. When he was the UK coach, did he even seem to have the first genuine connection with the University of Kentucky? Meaning, was there ever a time when Rick Pitino didn't put himself first, program AND players AND fans be damned?
Consider also for additional comparison player trauma the program endured under OTS. Scarcely anything like that happening now. So you can say that Cal "might" put a player before the program. Where are those circumstances?
Those top recruits have been to four FF's and two title games yet you could do it better?
Why don't you answer my question.
Which 5*'s would you have replaced with lesser talent in 2011, 2015, and 2015?
"I would not recruit 6 5*'s. It's great from a talent perspective and draft night perspective. Not so great on the NC perspective. What happens when they all leave early?"
Let's see,
in 2011 we went to the Final Four after they left...
In 2012 we won the championship.
In 2013 we went to the NIT after our best player went down and we had just won a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP with all those 5*'s
In 2014 we played in the final game.
In 2015 we were 4 minutes away from the final game.
Now you tell me how your lesser talented team would fair each of those years?
Let's see,
in 2011 we went to the Final Four after they left...
In 2012 we won the championship.
In 2013 we went to the NIT after our best player went down and we had just won a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP with all those 5*'s
In 2014 we played in the final game.
In 2015 we were 4 minutes away from the final game.
Now you tell me how your lesser talented team would fair each of those years?
That isn't a real question Brian. It is almost rhetorical. I would build a team of 2 to 3 elite players each year, the rest of my recruits would be guys I think can mature into NBA talents or at least over seas pros. I would always have a solid and mature core, period. I have said the same thing in here for years. Like it or not, that is my opinion.
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