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Final Four as the Standard

The Elite programs should expect at minimum one FF every 4 years, and one title a decade. Cal is well within that right now so I'm good.
The funny thing is that certain fans will look at this and say "that's pathetic. Can you believe how low Lou's standards are?"

However, if this is what an elite program could expect over the past 80 years, then 6 different schools would have 8 championships and 20 Final Fours by now.

However, nobody is even close to that except for us and UCLA.
 
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For me it's more about championships in an era than wins in a year. For a glimpse at what I mean:

Since I've been a fan we've averaged a championship about every 7 years.

For one arbitrary span of 7 years, if I had to choose, I would gladly choose 1 championship and 6 years of first and second round exits (even an NIT appearance), over 7 straight years of Elite Eight.

In my ultimate math, Elite Eight means nothing at all. And even Final Fours only count for just so much, though I do value them.

So I'm basically a championship-only guy, if you want to call me that. Except I only need one every era to stay happy, not one every year.

(In my estimation, this is about what Kentucky fans have hoped for and gotten all along. NCAAT titles get rarer as you go back in time, but then NIT titles get more plentiful, and that used to be considered the national championship.)

I can't help pointing out that from 1959 through 1995, U.K. won one (1) - YES, ONE (1) - NCAA Championship. That's one championship in a span of 37 seasons !

You must be one of the youngest among us.
 
I think the bar for a school like Kentucky (or Duke, etc) should be an Elite 8. A top school like ours should generally be favored the first 3 games. Elite 8 means a solid season. The goal, of course, is a Final4 or better.. but it's just not realistic.

People legitimately asked if Coach K was one of the GOATs in coaching (spoiler: he's not).. but in nearly 40 years he has 5 titles and 13 final fours and 17 elite 8s... That's it. The supposed best in the game can't even make an Elite8 half the time..

Sorry, hold on a minute...I cannot stand the guy but are you arguing that K is not one of the greatest college coaches of all time? I think that is what I am reading and that is just laughable. Only 5 in almost 40 seasons? How many should he have to qualify?
 
We were two games away from going undefeated in 2015. Sunshine pumpers like to ignore the one we lost. To say that Calipari has some real issues as coach of the Universe of Kentucky, and to point them out (or to suggest that you are ready to move on to a new coach), isn't "bashing" anybody. Please do feel free to sit in on a critique of Calipari, by administration, and let them know they are "bashing my coach and my favorite team".

Nobody ignores it...it sucked. I just don't act like the other 38 games didn't happen.
 
Sorry, hold on a minute...I cannot stand the guy but are you arguing that K is not one of the greatest college coaches of all time? I think that is what I am reading and that is just laughable. Only 5 in almost 40 seasons? How many should he have to qualify?
I don’t think that’s what he’s arguing at all. I think he’s just illustrating how hard it is, even for the best ever, to get to the final four and win championships consistently.
 
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The Elite programs should expect at minimum one FF every 4 years, and one title a decade. Cal is well within that right now so I'm good.
I agree, but will add... in the other 7 years the teams must be competitive for a championship run. I do want 4 seasons of no tournament, to have 3 great season. Jmo
 
My standard, which no one else ever accepts (which is fine with me) is that making the Elite Eight in today's highly competitive 68 team format is the equivalent of making the Final Four pre-1985. To get there, you have to win three games in the tournament, and avoid any bad losses-terrible upsets.
That is my mark of a successful season.

A Final Four is an exceptional season -- one to be remembered with a banner in the rafters and celebrated, no matter what else happens.

A Championship is an extraordinary season, one to embrace and cherish because it is as rare as it is exhilarating.

I've been a fan since Rupp's Runts, and I've only experienced four -- and that still puts me ahead of a vast majority of college basketball fans, especially when I add in the rich memories of years like 1966, 1975, 1984, 1992, 1993, 1997, 2003, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017 and others when the Cats did things I'll never forget, but fell short of a championship.
Come on man. Elite 8 should be at minimum what Cal’s teams make with the talent he has. And there’s absolutely no excuse for not making it out of the first weekend.
 
I just expected a little more. John is making 8 Million a year. To lose the games that they have is underachieving with the Tools , facilities, and Money UK gives to him. Duke beat us by a million last year. That really amplified it for me. He’s turned Kentucky into Memphis North.
 
I just expected a little more. John is making 8 Million a year. To lose the games that they have is underachieving with the Tools , facilities, and Money UK gives to him. Duke beat us by a million last year. That really amplified it for me. He’s turned Kentucky into Memphis North.

Okay relax. I’m no sunshine pumper (in fact most here think I’m the opposite) but Memphis north? Step off the ledge.
 
Sorry, hold on a minute...I cannot stand the guy but are you arguing that K is not one of the greatest college coaches of all time? I think that is what I am reading and that is just laughable. Only 5 in almost 40 seasons? How many should he have to qualify?

No no, the GOAT of ALL coaches. His name showed up on a B/R article a day or two ago.. with him Bill B, Pop, and Saban.

My point is that if he is the GOAT college coach.. and even HE can only get 5 titles in FORTY years.. I think Cal is doing just fine.
 
Come on man. Elite 8 should be at minimum what Cal’s teams make with the talent he has. And there’s absolutely no excuse for not making it out of the first weekend.
It's so easy there is no excuse not to do it? It's the bare minimum? And yet none of the other Elite Programs - Duke, Kansas, UNC-CHeats -- have done it as often as Cal since he arrived at Kentucky: Kentucky 7 Elite Eight or better appearances. Duke, 5, Kansas, 5, UNC-Cheats, 4. That's despite UNC cheating for decades, Kansas repeatedly earning the title Jailhawks for running a dirty program and Duke clearly colluding with Nike in recent years to cheat for players.

Calipari and Kentucky accomplish going to the Elite Eight more often than anybody else -- including programs clearly cheating and bending the rules -- while running a clean program that has not been accused of any cheating.

And to you that's nothing -- "the minimum." Not even worth designating 'successful.' I'd hate to be as miserable a fan of Kentucky basketball as you -- if, in fact you are a Kentucky fan.
 
No no, the GOAT of ALL coaches. His name showed up on a B/R article a day or two ago.. with him Bill B, Pop, and Saban.

My point is that if he is the GOAT college coach.. and even HE can only get 5 titles in FORTY years.. I think Cal is doing just fine.

Ha, thanks for clarifying!
 
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It's so easy there is no excuse not to do it? It's the bare minimum? And yet none of the other Elite Programs - Duke, Kansas, UNC-CHeats -- have done it as often as Cal since he arrived at Kentucky: Kentucky 7 Elite Eight or better appearances. Duke, 5, Kansas, 5, UNC-Cheats, 4. That's despite UNC cheating for decades, Kansas repeatedly earning the title Jailhawks for running a dirty program and Duke clearly colluding with Nike in recent years to cheat for players.

Calipari and Kentucky accomplish going to the Elite Eight more often than anybody else -- including programs clearly cheating and bending the rules -- while running a clean program that has not been accused of any cheating.

And to you that's nothing -- "the minimum." Not even worth designating 'successful.' I'd hate to be as miserable a fan of Kentucky basketball as you -- if, in fact you are a Kentucky fan.
What some people expect has been achieved ONCE in history by a cheating coach at UCLA and they act like a guy should be fired if he doesn’t achieve it now. It boggles the mind.
 
I can't help pointing out that from 1959 through 1995, U.K. won one (1) - YES, ONE (1) - NCAA Championship. That's one championship in a span of 37 seasons !

You must be one of the youngest among us.
Groovy.

And I can’t help pointing out that in the twelve-year span immediately preceding your window we won four (4) YES FOUR (4) NCAA Championships and one (1) YES ONE (1) NIT Championship and I said “averaged” and “about.”

You must be one of the worst at math among us.
 
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I think the terms being used mean different things to different people. The goal at a place like UK should be to compete for a championship, and win your share of them. There is no reason to have a prolonged FF drought, which we are approaching. Also, expectations and what that means differ. General expectations should be over a set time period, not too short and not too long. 2-3 FF in a decade is about right, probably with no more than 5 years between appearances. A championship every decade is probably about right for an expectation. However, expecting a FF or Championship every year is just not attainable. The tournament is a crap shoot so to speak, but if the stars never align, you should probably move from where you are standing.

Cal has delivered as the coach at UK, at least up to this point. If the drought continues, then it is time for him to either change what he is doing, or we need a new coach. When I see the views on Cal, I think 2 things, some fans are putting too much blame on Cal, and some fans are giving too much credit to Cal. Some are blaming Cal for virtually every loss, while some are blaming every thing but him for the losses. The truth is Cal is responsible for a few (nobody is perfect), and other things are responsible for a few. Cal is one of the best out there, but he certainly isn't God.

The other issue is the players, they aren't robots. If you think of it as each player receives a performance rating for each game, the player has a range between his potential and his worst game that it will always fall in. But realize there is a range. The ceiling of that range for individual players rarely if ever changes. What good coaches do is raise the floor, decreasing the range of performance the player can have. Generally with experience, the floor keeps raising, and it is why so many want experienced players. The problem is those experienced players have lower ceilings than the younger players. In a game with a team like Cal generally has, it doesn't really matter as much where is their range the other teams players perform, it is more about where in the range UK's players performance falls. And it is more likely than not that more players will perform closer to their floor than at their ceiling. The evidence of Cal raising our players floor is his average finish is between an elite eight and a final four. Cal's UK teams have made the final four more often than they have fallen short of the elite eight. A lot of people's suggestions for how Cal should have coached previous teams probably would have led to more games close to their ceiling, but their floor would have never been raised, and it would have been likely that the team would have exited the tournament much earlier most of the time.
 
"2-3 FF in a decade is about right, probably with no more than 5 years between appearances" - we are approaching that point and the last five years of Cal were not the same "standard" as his first five years.
 
I think the terms being used mean different things to different people. The goal at a place like UK should be to compete for a championship, and win your share of them. There is no reason to have a prolonged FF drought, which we are approaching. Also, expectations and what that means differ. General expectations should be over a set time period, not too short and not too long. 2-3 FF in a decade is about right, probably with no more than 5 years between appearances. A championship every decade is probably about right for an expectation. However, expecting a FF or Championship every year is just not attainable. The tournament is a crap shoot so to speak, but if the stars never align, you should probably move from where you are standing.

Cal has delivered as the coach at UK, at least up to this point. If the drought continues, then it is time for him to either change what he is doing, or we need a new coach. When I see the views on Cal, I think 2 things, some fans are putting too much blame on Cal, and some fans are giving too much credit to Cal. Some are blaming Cal for virtually every loss, while some are blaming every thing but him for the losses. The truth is Cal is responsible for a few (nobody is perfect), and other things are responsible for a few. Cal is one of the best out there, but he certainly isn't God.

The other issue is the players, they aren't robots. If you think of it as each player receives a performance rating for each game, the player has a range between his potential and his worst game that it will always fall in. But realize there is a range. The ceiling of that range for individual players rarely if ever changes. What good coaches do is raise the floor, decreasing the range of performance the player can have. Generally with experience, the floor keeps raising, and it is why so many want experienced players. The problem is those experienced players have lower ceilings than the younger players. In a game with a team like Cal generally has, it doesn't really matter as much where is their range the other teams players perform, it is more about where in the range UK's players performance falls. And it is more likely than not that more players will perform closer to their floor than at their ceiling. The evidence of Cal raising our players floor is his average finish is between an elite eight and a final four. Cal's UK teams have made the final four more often than they have fallen short of the elite eight. A lot of people's suggestions for how Cal should have coached previous teams probably would have led to more games close to their ceiling, but their floor would have never been raised, and it would have been likely that the team would have exited the tournament much earlier most of the time.

This is a very level-headed, smart post. Best post in the thread. Kudos.
 
People wonder why when we were looking for a coach, men like Billy Donovan, Izzo etc had 0 interest in coaching here.
We have some real idiots as “fans”. Calipari has done a fantastic job. Bill Self has 3 FF in 16 years at KU. 1 championship. Their fans defend him for the most part and respect him for what he’s done. M
When Calipari is finished, it will be interesting to see who would actually take the job.
 
To be fair, Cal said from day one this is how he was going to recruit, get the best he could and some would leave after a year. Then reload and on and on. Not sure he anticipated the extent of the mass exodus, but this was his plan. And I feel most of us fans were ok with it as long as it brought consistent final fours. But now a lot of fans are turning on him somewhat because of the last few years not getting there. Fair or not, that’s human nature I suppose. I don’t like the system either, but I supported Cal during the best years, and I support him now. Hypocritical to do otherwise imo. But it’s understandable.
 
It cracks me up when these numbskulls describe what Cal has done in consistently making at least the Elite Eight as "easy" and "the minimum" even though no one else -- including Hall of Famers Coach K, Roy Williams and Bill Self -- has been able to do it in this era --- even with cheating. Wonder why Duke, Kansas and UNC-CHeats haven't bothered to accomplish something so easy?

I really worry that those fans are going to run Cal out of town when it's all said and done. It won't be age, or family, or money that causes Cal to retire.. it's going to be the fanbase and the demands and one day he's going to say "I want to enjoy my golden years"
 
"2-3 FF in a decade is about right, probably with no more than 5 years between appearances" - we are approaching that point and the last five years of Cal were not the same "standard" as his first five years.

This is true, as we all can see, and why I said he has delivered up to this point. I went on to say that if the trajectory didn't change, I would be in line for a coaching change. For me, Cal has 2 more years to return to the FF before fans should be upset. The problem is a lot of fans are upset today, which is ridiculous considering the last ten years.
 
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I really worry that those fans are going to run Cal out of town when it's all said and done. It won't be age, or family, or money that causes Cal to retire.. it's going to be the fanbase and the demands and one day he's going to say "I want to enjoy my golden years"


The Macy's and Hacker's of the world are not helping matters either...
 
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I’ll qualify this as I’m absolutely not a “championship or bust” fan ... although I think when you’re an elite team on a dominant run you should expect a Final Four once every 2 or 3 years. Is that too high an expectation? Probably. But, that’s what Kentucky basketball is. It sets a standard that, hopefully, is better than everyone else’s. It’s why we make fun of Kansas for only having 3 titles. If we truly believe it’s just luck or a crapshoot, we have to stop making fun of Kansas for only having 3. I’m not sure about you guys but I’m not willing to stop making fun of Kansas.

I’d pose this question to the “tournament is luck” crowd. What year so far in the Cal era was our best team? 2012. That team won the title. So the fact that the best team we’ve had under Cal won the title stands to reason that it’s definitely more than just luck. Sure, there’s a luck factor and some years you get lucky and others you get unlucky. But if you look at our best teams, shoot go back 30 years if you want. 1996 and 2012. Our best teams have won titles. Our second best tier either won the title or at least made the final four (1993, 1997, 1998, 2015). So even though there’s an element of luck, the sheer fact that when you break down the best teams there’s a clear correlation of best teams and titles and final fours.




My only question, is there any college basketball program that has made a FF every two or three years in the past?
 
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Are we trying to be every other program, or are we trying to be Kentucky?



I like your positive vibes but even we haven’t done this in the past, except for Cal in the first half of his time here. It’s just very difficult and nobody in any sports stays on top forever so I’m loving how we have done this through the tough odds.
 
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I enjoy it all from game 1 to the end of the season, even if we lose some of them. My life isn’t changed if we go 40-0 or 0-40, I don’t take it to heart. So the “championship or bust” mindset is foolish imo. Cal gives a chance to compete most years, I’m more than happy
Cal has been to 7 elite 8's in 10 years. Not only that, but it's been with a new roster every season.
What other coach has done this?
I'd say he's successful
 
I like your positive vibes but even we haven’t done this in the past, except for Cal in the first half of his time here. It’s just very difficult and nobody in any sports stays on top forever so I’m loving how we have done this through the tough odds.

Exactly. This is what I've tried to convey as well. I am 39, I've been watching intently since I was 10ish, but know our history pretty well I'd say. In the near 30 years I've been watching only RP and Cal have been wildly successful, though sharing the same amount of titles as Tubby....that is just the way it has worked out so far.

But I'd trade all of RP/Cal years over the decade of Tubby and BCG in a heartbeat.

Enjoy the ride folks....
 
I like your positive vibes but even we haven’t done this in the past, except for Cal in the first half of his time here. It’s just very difficult and nobody in any sports stays on top forever so I’m loving how we have done this through the tough odds.

He actually did much better than what I was suggesting should be the norm in the first half of his time here. Coming back down to earth a bit in the back half has brought his “average” so to speak right in about the range of what I think as UK fans we can reasonably hope for.

I’m suggesting a Final Four every 2-3 years should be the expectation and honestly, I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all. If you look at our history going back to our first final four in 1942, we average a final four every 4.5 years. And this average includes some really, really long droughts. Including a recent one from 1999-2011. So I’m hoping we don’t suffer another drought like that, the expectation I think is pretty reasonable.
 
Winning 30 or more games with a largely Freshman team is a pretty good feat.

I'm pretty happy with that year in and year out.

It keeps KU from taking over the overall wins lead.

This past year, a lot of people considered this season an epic failure, but we gained like four more games on KU.

That's important to me.

To me, Cal has done nothing but add to the rich history of UK basketball.

The title put us firmly in second place in titles. UNC is next with six. Without that title, we would be in jeopardy of being tied by the Cheats for second.

He gave us four more Final Fours.

He gave us three number one overall draft picks. UK had never had a number one pick before Wall.

He gave us two 38 win seasons, that's the best in school history.

And so far, he has kept everything clean as far as we know. Meanwhile, UNC, KU, UofL, and others have had their names tarnished by scandal.

I am definitely happy to have him as our coach. Rupp is the only coach to do more here.

I am looking forward to ten more years of Cal. Does he frustrate me sometimes? Of course. Still, he wins a lot more than he loses and gives us a fighting chance every season despite having to field young, inexperienced teams every year.
 
His first 6 seasons he went to 4 final 4's and spoiled our fans. The Nike persuasion started and we were at a disadvantage.
He's done an outstanding job knowing all of this
 
Winning 30 or more games with a largely Freshman team is a pretty good feat.

I'm pretty happy with that year in and year out.

It keeps KU from taking over the overall wins lead.

This past year, a lot of people considered this season an epic failure, but we gained like four more games on KU.

That's important to me.

To me, Cal has done nothing but add to the rich history of UK basketball.

The title put us firmly in second place in titles. UNC is next with six. Without that title, we would be in jeopardy of being tied by the Cheats for second.

He gave us four more Final Fours.

He gave us three number one overall draft picks. UK had never had a number one pick before Wall.

He gave us two 38 win seasons, that's the best in school history.

And so far, he has kept everything clean as far as we know. Meanwhile, UNC, KU, UofL, and others have had their names tarnished by scandal.

I am definitely happy to have him as our coach. Rupp is the only coach to do more here.

I am looking forward to ten more years of Cal. Does he frustrate me sometimes? Of course. Still, he wins a lot more than he loses and gives us a fighting chance every season despite having to field young, inexperienced teams every year.

Go stand in the corner. Facts are not permitted on this board. They are only to be used by homers. You sir are simply unfit for CLOD membership.

(Great Post)
 
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Winning 30 or more games with a largely Freshman team is a pretty good feat.

I'm pretty happy with that year in and year out.

It keeps KU from taking over the overall wins lead.

This past year, a lot of people considered this season an epic failure, but we gained like four more games on KU.

That's important to me.

To me, Cal has done nothing but add to the rich history of UK basketball.

The title put us firmly in second place in titles. UNC is next with six. Without that title, we would be in jeopardy of being tied by the Cheats for second.

He gave us four more Final Fours.

He gave us three number one overall draft picks. UK had never had a number one pick before Wall.

He gave us two 38 win seasons, that's the best in school history.

And so far, he has kept everything clean as far as we know. Meanwhile, UNC, KU, UofL, and others have had their names tarnished by scandal.

I am definitely happy to have him as our coach. Rupp is the only coach to do more here.

I am looking forward to ten more years of Cal. Does he frustrate me sometimes? Of course. Still, he wins a lot more than he loses and gives us a fighting chance every season despite having to field young, inexperienced teams every year.

GP
 
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If we really are the gold standard, then isn't it reasonable for us to have higher expectations than every other fan base?

Higher expectations do not equal idiotic expectations. I expect a title every year. That's because I'm a Kentucky fan. Do I bash my team and coach with unrealistic goals and demands? Of course not. To do so is just stupid. The guy is the best coach available. He is likely second best in our history. No one of any significance in the media or other basketball circles outside the CLOD debates this. And those guys are nothing but a comedy.
 
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Higher expectations do not equal idiotic expectations. I expect a title every year. That's because I'm a Kentucky fan. Do I bash my team and coach with unrealistic goals and demands? Of course not. To do so is just stupid. The guy is the best coach available. He is likely second best in our history. No one of any significance in the media or other basketball circles outside the CLOD debates this. And those guys are nothing but a comedy.

I agree, and I think you would agree that the expectations I laid out are not only not idiotic, they’re pretty reasonable.
 
I agree, and I think you would agree that the expectations I laid out are not only not idiotic, they’re pretty reasonable.

Actually, STL_Cat, I did not intend to quote you in my response to the blue stripes. I replied to the wrong post on my phone and it stuck in my reply. I will edit your quote out. My apologies.
 
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