This seems upsurd, considering we have only made the final four 9 times since the tournament expanded in 1985 to include 64 teams. That is 9 times in 34 years. Are we really going to say the most successful college basketball team in history is only successful 26% of the time?
Final Four as the Standard
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This seems upsurd, considering we have only made the final four 9 times since the tournament expanded in 1985 to include 64 teams. That is 9 times in 34 years. Are we really going to say the most successful college basketball team in history is only successful 26% of the time?
I would suggest losing to a weaker opponent sours some of these outcomes. Losing to West Virginia missing their point guard, Kansas State (not even a great team but missing their big man superstar), and now Auburn whom we beat on their home court and waxed them on ours, doesn't help.
But how much "weaker" were they, really?
When UK lost to UAB in 04, that was certainly a weaker opponent, in that UK would probably take 8-9 if they played 10 times. But when you play a 2 seed West Virginia in 2010, or Auburn last year, or really even Kansas State (since that was not a stellar UK team), is the separation really all that great?
And sometimes, you just don't quite realize what you're facing at the time. If you compare IU and UK from the 15-16 season, you can make a very valid argument that IU had more talent. Jamal Murray was the best talent in that game, hands down, but Yogi Ferrell is sticking in the NBA, Thomas Bryant is becoming an actual factor, Toronto is pretty high on OG Anunoby, and Troy Williams has floated between the G League and the NBA.
It was easy, when that game happened, to say "oh, it's just Indiana and Crean, they suck", but if you look back now and compare rosters, it's hard to be shocked that UK lost.
The Elite programs should expect at minimum one FF every 4 years, and one title a decade. Cal is well within that right now so I'm good.
Exactly. This guy gets it. We're Kentucky. We ARE the standard, need to act like it, and hold Cal - and everyone else - accountable when we fall short of it.
Ok. So in all seriousness, how many final 4’s and championships should Kentucky win in a decade for you to consider it a “successful” decade?
I’ll put in my vote for 3 or 4 final fours and 1 championship to call it an overall successful decade. A GREAT decade would be 2 titles or more. Is that fair?
Excellent post.
I'm never satisfied with anything but #1.
But I also realize that THESE are the Good ole Days. Enjoy them, everyone.
I’d agree with that, for sure. Especially if the other years they’re still competing, winning 30ish games, and getting sweet 16’s & elite 8’s. I’m just really curious what the expectations are for some of these people that are “demanding change.”
My post was intended to address present expectations. It was not intended as a comparison with the records of prior coaches. I apologize for not making that clear (if, in fact, that was not clear in the first place).
A decade without a championship is an unsuccessful decade. Win one and it's hard to call it unsuccessful, but I'd also look to have two Final Fours. Get beyond two FFs and a title and you're looking at a VERY successful decade.
It’s time for a championship. It’s been 8 years wo one and lottery picks galore. Success is a sliding scale. You win it all and you have a 2-3 year grace period at U.K. you as a fan can’t say final four is success or elite 8 or whatever. You have to consider the time it’s been since the last title and everything in between. 2013 was a failure for instance but no one bags on cal he got a pass but at UK we don’t accept nit bids losing to robert Morris. Problem is that since 2012 no title. We are due THATs what matters right now. We are due. It’s title or bust right now. Cal has 3 years imo or he will leave bc the Kyle Macy’s of the world will increase with great frequency. Barney was a fool to give cal a lifetime contract on the heels of an underachievement of a season. You could make a strong case that the last two seasons have been massive under achievements losing to inferior teams in the tourney. You guys who talk about luck. Well we got it two years in a row and it did nothing for us. Proof as well as the stats to back it up that winning a title is anything but luck.
Auburn was without its best player. Cal played it safe. We had destroyed them with ej and Richards. The excuses are tiresome. All of the lack of execution you detail falls at the feet of the coach. You’re talking about not executing fundamentals. When it’s several player not executing its bc of coaching.
It's the hardest title to win in all of sports. If I were betting I would say that the best team in CBB wins it at a lower clip than the best team in any other sport. Even one of the top 4 teams win it less than 70% of the time.
A couple of reasons might be that the most talented teams are usually the younger teams. Every once in a while the inexperience will end up losing it for you, but overall talent usually beats experience. You also only have to find the right collection of four or five players where in football you probably need 30+ really good players to compete. You then need to get lucky and get a good whistle for the two or three close games you are likely to have. Avoid the injury bug. Just so many factors it takes to win it. Without a obvious missed calls going in Virginia's favor Texas Tech comes out of no where and wins the championship
A couple of reasons might be that the most talented teams are usually the younger teams. Every once in a while the inexperience will end up losing it for you, but overall talent usually beats experience. You also only have to find the right collection of four or five players where in football you probably need 30+ really good players to compete. You then need to get lucky and get a good whistle for the two or three close games you are likely to have. Avoid the injury bug. Just so many factors it takes to win it. Without a obvious missed calls going in Virginia's favor Texas Tech comes out of no where and wins the championship
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I agree, I'm done with the NBA Draft nights, the general lack of in-game coaching aside from constant screaming, putting in players who choke at the line, coddling certain players in order to preserve draft status so that the next recruit will sign. I'm done with Cal refusing to shake up his recruiting staff, refusing to bring in someone who can teach offense. If we're going to be competing for Elite Eights, it's time to bring in a new regime.
I agree, more teaching and technique is needed on Cal staff. Look at the Championship Game this past year - Beard and Bennett teach fundamentals and defense. (UVA won in OT making 12 straight free throws). Even in football, after last year's loss to Clemson, Saban had the same issue at Alabama and made adjustments to his staff in order to focus on winning - he (Saban) is concerned with winning games and not just 247sports recruiting polls.
If it’s the hardest title to win then why the hell is it the same teams basically winning these titles? In the last 40 yrs off the top of my head we have 4 duke 5 unc 4 Florida a couple Villanova 3 KU a couple 3 or 4 for IU Louisville a couple. That’s like 25 titles between like 8 teams off the top of my head. Outliers don’t win the tournament. This excuse “hardest title to win” that’s utter BS as is he weight given to luck.
I forgot UConn with 4 that’s close to 3/4 of all titles in the last 40 years have been won by 9 teams. Hardest title to win if you’re podunk st. Give me a break if it were the hardest title or “luck” it would be a hodgepodge of different teams. 9 teams won 3/4 of the titles. Come on people.
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I think the bar for a school like Kentucky (or Duke, etc) should be an Elite 8. A top school like ours should generally be favored the first 3 games. Elite 8 means a solid season. The goal, of course, is a Final4 or better.. but it's just not realistic.
People legitimately asked if Coach K was one of the GOATs in coaching (spoiler: he's not).. but in nearly 40 years he has 5 titles and 13 final fours and 17 elite 8s... That's it. The supposed best in the game can't even make an Elite8 half the time..
People legitimately asked if Coach K was one of the GOATs in coaching (spoiler: he's not).. but in nearly 40 years he has 5 titles and 13 final fours and 17 elite 8s... That's it. The supposed best in the game can't even make an Elite8 half the time..
If that was the bar tubby would still be coach just sayin. Kyle Macy spoke out bc he knows what it’s all about at UK. It’s about titles pure and simple.
I think you need to sprinkle in some successful years as well. Heck, what if Cal made a Final4 every year, but could not get over that hump to the final game.. some would actually be upset with that. They would claim he "just doesn't have what it takes to be a top coach".
Titles are a crap shot. And to pretend otherwise is foolish thinking. I want a coach who can consistently get to the Elite8 and a handful of Final4's in a year. If we can squeeze out a title or two every decade.. perfect.
No other coach in the modern day has done better than that...
If those are bad losses imagine what losing to Lehigh, Mercer, South Carolina in the Sweet16, Bucknell, Bradley, Stanford, VCU, and WSU feels like?
You could argue that Calipari has yet to have a glaringly bad loss in the tournament. We've had let downs.. but ZERO opening round losses and only one in the 2nd round.. to one of our rivals, Indiana, no less.
That WVU team was one of the greatest teams.. Auburn made it to a Final 4.. K. State wasn't a great team.. but was still a power conference.
Laugh away. The list would be huge if we're going to continue competing for Elite Eights and want to see more exciting offense, and teams who don't let off the pedal.And who would you hire exactly?
Very reasonable expectations. Lots of stupid going on in this thread.
Kyle Macy won a title mainly because he transferred to a loaded team of seniors in 78. In 79 UK ended up in the NIT. In 1980 his team lost in the S16 at HOME as a one seed. So I seriously doubt that’s what Kyle Macy thinks. If he does then he needs to look in the mirror before he opens his mouth I’d say.
Lol, that is rich brother. I'll give you Auburn and Wisconsin if you want but missing free throws is not on coaches, neither is missing a ton of 3's....
I was a smart ass, you are 100% right my friend. And I am not being one right now...
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Terrible post imo, not that you care...
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....but UVA proved that making Its (16 straight in regulation and OT) does win championships.
I have no clue what Macy's deal is....neither do you.
UK has 4 titles since after the '58 season. By my math it is time for a title every 15 years on average.
Please enlighten me on the history of UK basketball. Your rambling posts about "it is time for a title" make no sense. It is time for a title every year, for every team, in every sport...because that is the ultimate goal. Problem is it just doesn't work that way.
You want to say luck isn't real, this, that and the other...since '78 we went 18 years without a title, then 2, then 14 years.
Now we are sitting on 7 years and you are acting like the world is ending. We were a game away from going undefeated in 2015. IT SUCKS THAT WE LOST, but you give no credit for the utter joy you had that season as a fan watching our players and coaches, all because we lost to Wisconsin....sad IMO.
You blame everything on Cal...amazing. Players make winning plays and losing plays, bottom line. Coaches mold talent, draw up some plays and are ambassadors for the program...Cal can't do everything right at all times and neither can our players, they are human and most are still freaking teenagers for god sake.
As a UK fan it is offensive to read trash posts where you bash our teams- yeah, when you bash Cal you are bashing his teams, our players and ultimately our University's program. This stretch run has been historic and you've clearly been too miserable to enjoy it.
Exactly....they also proved you have to get fortunate, lucky, opportunistic...whatever you want to call it to win a title.
This isn't just a play in a game, it is injuries too....so much goes into a title, that is why they are hard to come by in a one game elimination tournament.
All you guys are wasting your time. Cal sucks rocks. Completely unworthy to coach high school ball because he hasn’t won 2 championships. CLOD said so. No coach should be allowed to start coaching unless the have won 2 championships. You don’t know crap about basketball and you are just a homer if you think otherwise. THE CLOD HATH SPOKEN!!!!
Hint: Sarcasm meter turn, full right.
Hint: Sarcasm meter turn, full right.
We were two games away from going undefeated in 2015. Sunshine pumpers like to ignore the one we lost. To say that Calipari has some real issues as coach of the Universe of Kentucky, and to point them out (or to suggest that you are ready to move on to a new coach), isn't "bashing" anybody. Please do feel free to sit in on a critique of Calipari, by administration, and let them know they are "bashing my coach and my favorite team".
That question has already been bandied about ad nausolem on this board. Elite Eight is your mark. It doesn't get reset everytime an opinion to the contrary is expressed, nor will I entertain the delights of those who wish to win arguments on the count of exhaustion by ignorance. We do have one thing in common, your current city of residence.
I think people are scared that the replacement for Cal will do worse than the perennial Elite Eight (or worse) tourney finish, and so they like to imagine that it's poor luck, bad ref's, tough draws, down year, "strange recruits" (wait, that goes under NBA Draft night discussion). Anything but poorly put together teams, poor coaching, preserving draft spots.
For real? Heh. Cool.
But no, Elite 8 is not the goal. I’m happy if it’s an AVERAGE season, not the goal. Tubby’s best seasons post 98 were elite 8’s. It wasn’t getting better and that wasn’t good enough. The elite 8 being the AVERAGE means there will be some final 4’s and one or more championships, and unfortunately a few seasons where they don’t make an elite 8.
My purpose in pushing the question of who would do better is quite simply the fact that there are ZERO realistic options that you could confidently say would do better.
Just for poops and giggles, I did some math. Awarding zero points for not making the tournament, one point for losing first round, 2 for making it to the 2nd etc. up to 7 points for a championship, coach K, arguably the greatest coach of all time (if you take espn’s word for it) averaged a 3.46; halfway between sweet 16 and elite 8. Cal’s average is 4.3; between elite 8 and final four. It is simply not realistic to demand that Kentucky is in the final four every year and winning 3-4 championships every decade.
Now, I’m not saying you can’t criticize Cal. You certainly can. He’s made some decisions in both recruiting and in-game that’s had me pulling my hair out. And yes, 4 straight seasons without a final four has been disappointing (although I still say Higgins freakin hosed us out of 2017) but demanding a change of regime, which somewhere in here someone did, is just asinine.
For me it's more about championships in an era than wins in a year. For a glimpse at what I mean:
Since I've been a fan we've averaged a championship about every 7 years.
For one arbitrary span of 7 years, if I had to choose, I would gladly choose 1 championship and 6 years of first and second round exits (even an NIT appearance), over 7 straight years of Elite Eight.
In my ultimate math, Elite Eight means nothing at all. And even Final Fours only count for just so much, though I do value them.
So I'm basically a championship-only guy, if you want to call me that. Except I only need one every era to stay happy, not one every year.
(In my estimation, this is about what Kentucky fans have hoped for and gotten all along. NCAAT titles get rarer as you go back in time, but then NIT titles get more plentiful, and that used to be considered the national championship.)
Since I've been a fan we've averaged a championship about every 7 years.
For one arbitrary span of 7 years, if I had to choose, I would gladly choose 1 championship and 6 years of first and second round exits (even an NIT appearance), over 7 straight years of Elite Eight.
In my ultimate math, Elite Eight means nothing at all. And even Final Fours only count for just so much, though I do value them.
So I'm basically a championship-only guy, if you want to call me that. Except I only need one every era to stay happy, not one every year.
(In my estimation, this is about what Kentucky fans have hoped for and gotten all along. NCAAT titles get rarer as you go back in time, but then NIT titles get more plentiful, and that used to be considered the national championship.)
