Cost of college - Wow! (a bit wordy - sorry)

[LineSkiCat14]

I think theres going to have to be an overhaul of higher education down the road, or schools are going to fold (some already are). Do we slash all the unnecessary admin positions? Change the way student loans are done? Does college go to an on-demand system that saves a ton on tuition and board?

Something has to give. For a career in IT, you simply don't need a degree to do the work, and the best engineers I've worked with never had much of a formal education.

 

[Dore95]

I wouldn’t suggest that anyone spend $40k/semester unless you’re from a rich family with money to burn. Honestly, a lot of what you suggest sounds like what community college offers - a skill with very little fluff.

I agree, most distinguished professors teach grad students. They are there to bring in research grants. Their grad students help do the research to keep the money flowing. Most undergraduate classes don’t really require a world class individual to present the information. You just need someone that has mastered the material.

It is worth mentioning that Harvard just announced free tuition for families earning $200,000 or less. Other high level private schools have adopted this "pay what you can afford" type approach.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

It is worth mentioning that Harvard just announced free tuition for families earning $200,000 or less. Other high level private schools have adopted this "pay what you can afford" type approach.

I'm honestly fine with this.. but id prefer it to be tiered in some way (which I'm sure it is) so the family thay makes 201k isn't totally boned. Maybe families who make half of thay have the tuititon totally covered where as those who make 150k have it partiall covefed. I'd also like the standards for this free education to be extremely high. 4.0s and only the most deserving, which for Havard I'm sure they're already doing. Lastly, id like there to be no affirmative action related. The brightest of the brightest get this, the students who are at the top of their class and hard working get the degree as they will have the best chance to go on and do something with it.

 

[Dore95]

I'm honestly fine with this.. but id prefer it to be tiered in some way (which I'm sure it is) so the family thay makes 201k isn't totally boned. Maybe families who make half of thay have the tuititon totally covered where as those who make 150k have it partiall covefed. I'd also like the standards for this free education to be extremely high. 4.0s and only the most deserving, which for Havard I'm sure they're already doing. Lastly, id like there to be no affirmative action related. The brightest of the brightest get this, the students who are at the top of their class and hard working get the degree as they will have the best chance to go on and do something with it.

Yeah - the upper middle class gets screwed as usual. A family making 250k is going to have a hell of a time paying 80k a year for college. But maybe there is some type of relief for them, as opposed to the truly wealthy.

 

[Ron Mehico]

It is worth mentioning that Harvard just announced free tuition for families earning $200,000 or less. Other high level private schools have adopted this "pay what you can afford" type approach.

I have no issue with this, but also at the same time doesn’t it just show how bullshit the tuition is to begin with? Obviously this will not harm Harvard in anyway significantly or else they wouldn’t offer it. So instead of free for some and completely screw over the majority with a massively overinflated tuition why not charge a reasonable tuition for everyone? The whole system is ridiculous.

 

[UK82]

Nephew has a 1/2 scholarship at Savannah College of Arts and Design. 70k cut to 35k per year. Dude better design some damn fine clothes for that kind of money.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I have a ways to go before I have to think college for my kids.. but I'd prefer a route where they go to a community college for a year or two to give them some more time to figure out WHAT it is they want to do, what's attainable for them, take cheaper electives, etc.

One of the many many problems with this whole thing, is that I don't believe 18 year olds really have an idea of what they want to do. They aren't ready to just sign their life over for student loans. So many recent grads are NOT doing the field of work that applies to what their degree is. And that's not just a liberal arts/coffee barista... that's a financial major who switched entirely to being a teacher later on. Or an engineering major who switched to ComSci. I was on campus not TOO long ago (**** 20 years almost).. no one knew what they wanted to do as a freshman.

 

[PTI (pti)]

It is worth mentioning that Harvard just announced free tuition for families earning $200,000 or less. Other high level private schools have adopted this "pay what you can afford" type approach.

Feel free to double check my work, but I believe these huge endowments are about to be taxed? If not, then they certainly should.


Berea College has always intrigued me. $0 tuition, so every decision they make has to revolve around making sure students can always attend free or charge. It's an outside the box thought, but what if the state of Kentucky decided to move in that direction? None of our state schools is academically significant to begin with, so what do they have to lose? It sure would be an amazing feat if a state had the balls to promote their University system as the only one in the country where students can attend for 4 years at no cost.

 

[JonathanW]

All of those schools the OP listed are PRIVATE schools, which typically are more than out-of-state cost at public schools, and much more than in-state public schools.
(useless fact about Wake Forest U, it is not in or near Wake Forest NC, it is in Winston-Salem NC. It used to be in Wake Forest, which is just 20min north of Raleigh (in the same county as Raleigh), but it moved when Winston (the company) gave them the land to build on if they would move. So WFU moved 1:30 away from WF. There is now a theological seminary there now at the old WFU campus.)

I just had a kid graduate from an in-state school (NC St) last summer, and my other kid start at an in-state school (ECU) last fall. Every state is different, but here in NC all (10 or so) in-state universities (whether it is UNC or UNC-Pembroke) all cost about the same. And it's reasonably affordable. All in total, if you have no student aid about 20K/yr (or just a little over), but most can get student loans to drop that. After scholarships, grants, I think my oldest graduated with only about 18K in student debt, which I'm paying. I think my youngest may be more like 25K of student loans when he finishes in 3 years (fewer scholarships).

My oldest did consider UK and Colorado also. He had scholarship offer at Colorado (20K over 4 years), and a combination of grades and me being an alum was going to reduce his UK cost also. But even after all of that, being from out of KY and CO those 2 were going to cost him about 30K and 50K respectively a year. I think he might have chosen Colorado if not for Covid making it all on-line that first year.

Point is, if you stay in-state, it can be affordable for most. Maybe a challenge, but still doable.

 

[JonathanW]

I have a ways to go before I have to think college for my kids.. but I'd prefer a route where they go to a community college for a year or two to give them some more time to figure out WHAT it is they want to do, what's attainable for them, take cheaper electives, etc.

One of the many many problems with this whole thing, is that I don't believe 18 year olds really have an idea of what they want to do. They aren't ready to just sign their life over for student loans. So many recent grads are NOT doing the field of work that applies to what their degree is. And that's not just a liberal arts/coffee barista... that's a financial major who switched entirely to being a teacher later on. Or an engineering major who switched to ComSci. I was on campus not TOO long ago (**** 20 years almost).. no one knew what they wanted to do as a freshman.

You are right that most don't know. Some do though. My oldest knew at 15-16 that he wanted to be an Engineer. He didn't know specifically which type of engineer though, not even his FR year in college at 18.

I think CC is a very good option. I wish my younger son had done that, although he's doing well so far through his FR year at a 4-yr U. The local CC for him would have been Wake Tech CC, it's huge though with several satelite campuses all over Wake County (Raleigh, Cary, Wake Forest, Morrisville). AND if you get your 2-yr degree from Wake Tech, supposedly you are guaranteed to be accepted into NC St.
But the CC option does have one other aspect that is both a "+" and a "-". The "+" is that there isn't on-campus housing so most live at home, thus further savings. The "-" being that there isn't on-campus housing so not getting the "college experience".

 

[bthaunert]

I can't account for all of the increased costs, but for state colleges, the lack of state funding plus the addition of modern services has driven a lot of the increase.

Like you, I've worked in Higher Ed a long time. My entire career across 5 different universities. While I agree there is some fat, the drastic decline in state funding for state universities is a huge issue as you mention. I don't think those outside the profession truly understand how little of a university is funded through state dollars. I currently work at Illinois State University and only 13.6% of our budget is state funding. A majority of the remaining 86.4% comes from tuition and fees. It's 1/3 less than what they got just 15 years ago. There are many state universities across the country that get less than 10% of their budget from state dollars.

As for the worth of a degree, or what a school is worth, I think it totally depends on the major. I worked at the University of Pennsylvania for 6 years. You better believe kids that come out of their with degrees such as business can make some major money. But I also knew kids who went their and majored in philosophy....waste of money imo.

A lot of major universities with big time endowments also have amazing opportunities, At Penn, for example, they guarantee a financial aid package that covers at minimum tuition with grants and work-study for students from families that make up to $200,000 with typical assets.

All-in-all, the answer to the OP is, it depends. I think there are a ton of wasteful degrees out there. But I also think going to a great academic university, and majoring in something that has a high ceiling for salary, is well worth the money.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Figure nows the perfect time to throw this grenade into the chat:

"Those who can, do.. whose who can't, teach".

Alright, have a good evening everyone.

 

[HeismaNole]

Companies using these colleges as pointless middle men is what pisses me off. I also think this is predatorial lending to college kids who have no concept of living on their own, paying for shit, or even understand debt. We just give out these massive loans despite the lack of ROI?

College has become a country club to party and eff around. Very few majors are worth anything. To me, shit that has no real world value should not even be a department. When I was in college, they would make us take these 'diversity' courses where it had zero to do with your major. It would be stuff like Religious Studies, American studies, etc. There would be people whose major was 'American Studies.' WTF are you going to do with that degree and was that really worth the major debt?

The government getting involved is what effed everything. That and the bloated pork that is known as the admin.

 

[BigBlueDave]

Feel free to double check my work, but I believe these huge endowments are about to be taxed? If not, then they certainly should.


Berea College has always intrigued me. $0 tuition, so every decision they make has to revolve around making sure students can always attend free or charge. It's an outside the box thought, but what if the state of Kentucky decided to move in that direction? None of our state schools is academically significant to begin with, so what do they have to lose? It sure would be an amazing feat if a state had the balls to promote their University system as the only one in the country where students can attend for 4 years at no cost.

Edit: Some of this is relevant to your post, a lot not. I get carried away.



I'm have way through getting my kids(1 grad, 1 in school, 1 on the way) bachelors degrees at UK. UK, I consider, is pretty generous with tuition scholarships. Upper 20s act plus kees money will cover most of it. Very few get all tuition and even fewer get the full ride. The full ride hardly happens anymore. The full ride, tuition+room+board, is the singletary. My oldest had a singletary.

My UK freshman class was 2000-2500? and had 100 singletary scholars. Once UK quit operating their dorms and food service, total singletary scholars shrunk and then only offered a stipend toward room and board. My son was offered four years tuition and $10000/yr housing stipend(no board) for his first two years.

His freshman class was 6000+ and only 25 singletarys offered. Then, if an offer was declined because the recipient chose a better school in the end, this scholarship went unused. Only 19 singletary's were finally awarded.

-----

UK is charging the national average for instate tuition. I can speak to Tennessee, Ohio State and Alabama are right there. What's different between those schools is UK is trying to disparately grow. I think the last incoming class was 7000. That's not big for the big schools, but that is huge for UK. In order to pull that off, UK is admitting all comers. We are now at a 95% acceptance rate. Average 21 ACT.


A close friend lives in Sarasota and is a parent of a high school senior. She was telling me how hard it was to get into UF or FSU. I was skeptical because wth it's a state school. Florida has made a priority that their flagships, UF and FSU, limit admission to about the current size of UK. They do this while holding tuition to half of national average ($5600/year). I know they haven't found a cheaper way to educate. I know the state tax payer is picking up more of tab.

By limiting admissions and bargain basement tuition, the demand results in a 25% acceptance rate at both schools. Average 28act.

UF and FSU have similar room and board as everyone else.

If you don't make it into those two, the directional state schools are still available.


-----

My middle son was way out of the running for a singletary, but did get a provost. The most important class he took his hs senior year was an elective, How to Apply for Financial Aid and Scholarships. All of those $250/500/1000 scholarships add up. About 1/3 were renewable. If you decide on a narrow-road-less-traveled major, look into departmental scholarships. My middle received a $5000/yr four year renewable that way.

 

[KYExtemper]

Another bit of advice that I'd have is to get your kids into AP and dual credit classes in high school. Don't just take the general course load anymore. The cost savings really add up if they are able to get to university with 30+ hours already stored. That will wipe out a lot of general education classes and get you quickly into your major. Kentucky now provides ways for students to take several dual credit classes for free so you don't even have to pay. AP classes do rely on an exam but if you are applying for scholarships/elite colleges they want to see them. KY has also subsidized the cost of these exams significantly in recent years so they are not as expensive to take. Quality of an AP program is a big selling point for schools (and not all take advantage) as the better teachers can get high pass rates for their students. It's worth checking out the pass rate/score data if you are looking for a high school to send your child to.

I do know that state funding for universities in Kentucky isn't what it once was, which university presidents have blamed for rising tuition. I don't have any hard data on hand to quantify that, though. However, I do think college is on course for a reckoning with the "demographic cliff" due to falling birthrates post-2008 financial collapse. College administration bloat has grown significantly since the early 2000s and there are degree programs that are questionable offerings, at best. Add in graduates struggling in the modern job market, the price, student loan debt (talk about a system in desperate need of reform!), etc. and the numbers just aren't adding up and universities can't justify it.

 

[DoubleSecretProbation]

Getting ready to send my oldest to UK. Top ten in his class at a Kentucky public school, 31 ACT, lots of activities, went to GSE and GSP and UK gave him the equivalent of a participation trophy scholarship. I’m looking at about $22500 a year out of pocket at this point.

 

[KYExtemper]

Getting ready to send my oldest to UK. Top ten in his class at a Kentucky public school, 31 ACT, lots of activities, went to GSE and GSP and UK gave him the equivalent of a participation trophy scholarship. I’m looking at about $22500 a year out of pocket at this point.

Does GSP not give out the equivalent of a full tuition scholarship anymore? It paid all of my tuition for 4 years in the 2000s.

 

[MegaBlue05]

I have a ways to go before I have to think college for my kids.. but I'd prefer a route where they go to a community college for a year or two to give them some more time to figure out WHAT it is they want to do, what's attainable for them, take cheaper electives, etc.

I agree with this. I am from the Lexington area but went to WKU straight out of high school. My folks were strict and my mom was a helicopter part most of my life. 18 year old me didn’t GAF about school. I just wanted to get out of the house, catch a buzz and (attempt to) get laid. To say I didn’t take college seriously at first is an understatement. (I was an A/B honor roll student in high school, a professional partier in early college and Dean’s list in late college.)

I ended up spending two summers as an upperclassman retaking courses I did poorly in when I was in my “going to class is optional, getting hammered every night is mandatory” phase my first three semesters.

I would’ve been much better off living at home and completing my general education requirements at a local community college and then transferring to a four year university for my major courses.

I tried to encourage my 19-year-old niece to go this route. She did not.

 

[vhcat70]

That's pretty surprising to me. Total cost (some of their majors have different costs) is about $45k/yr with R&B, fees, included. In light of what we've already posted in this thread, that looks like a bargain. And Purdue is a very good school. Still a lot of money but only slightly more than half of what other schools charge. Good for them.

I did not realize it was a public university. I always thought it was private. Learn something new every day. Now it makes sense that it's so much more affordable than other schools mentioned, which are pretty much all private.

One other tidbit I'll add: Harvard's endowment fund is >$50B. To maintain their tax exempt status they MUST spend at least 5% of their endowment every year or, in this case, >$2.5B. Why does ANY student have to pay tuition? They could cover the cost for every one of their 21,500 students and still be left with several hundred million dollars to spend on new equipment, buildings, etc. And that's assuming the tuition and other costs normally charged to students is the ACTUAL cost of everything and not a number that's higher than actual costs to cover the budget. Or, the students should probably have some skin in the game - charge $25k all-in and let the endowment pick up the rest. Would still have almost $2B to spend after that.

Well it’s not books and fees and room/board. She’s in Engineering. She’s had part time work since she started three years ago. Ex- Indiana Gov. Mitch Danial was still president there when she started and had promised to keep tuition fixed. And it has been.

 

[DoubleSecretProbation]

Does GSP not give out the equivalent of a full tuition scholarship anymore? It paid all of my tuition for 4 years in the 2000s.

Nope

 

[HeismaNole]

I agree with this. I am from the Lexington area but went to WKU straight out of high school. My folks were strict and my mom was a helicopter part most of my life. 18 year old me didn’t GAF about school. I just wanted to get out of the house, catch a buzz and (attempt to) get laid. To say I didn’t take college seriously at first is an understatement. (I was an A/B honor roll student in high school, a professional partier in early college and Dean’s list in late college.)

I ended up spending two summers as an upperclassman retaking courses I did poorly in when I was in my “going to class is optional, getting hammered every night is mandatory” phase my first three semesters.

I would’ve been much better off living at home and completing my general education requirements at a local community college and then transferring to a four year university for my major courses.

I tried to encourage my 19-year-old niece to go this route. She did not.

So much of it is a status thing. Kids are embarrassed by community college and have grown up watching movies and idolizing college life. Pretty hard sell to push a logical solution for a kid whose brain isn't fully-developed.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Making student loans bankruptable would help. That way the loan isn’t guaranteed for the government so there would need to be some sort of vetting process to approve the loan and result in some being denied forcing the universities to react accordingly. Right now it’s one giant predatory lending scheme by the university since it has a guaranteed loan from the government. It’s a horrible and corrupt situation where both the government and university profit off of the public.

It’s awful, but you need to add some accountability upon the institutions. The cost has exponentially skyrocketed since the guaranteed student loan. Making it bankruptable does not address the major culprit. The schools need to have skin in the game.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

So much of it is a status thing. Kids are embarrassed by community college and have grown up watching movies and idolizing college life. Pretty hard sell to push a logical solution for a kid whose brain isn't fully-developed.

It may be a hard sell, but this ain't the 80s and 90s anymore. There is no more "go party for 4 years, get handed a degree, become mid to upper class".. the times have changed and the youth need to be presented this, in some fashion, or else they are going to be broke with a degree that barely keeps up with the pay, or worse, a completely useless degree.

Theres always been the notion that whatever generation you are, you had it better than what your parents had, and they had it better than your grandparents. I think that growth rate is starting to flatten. Now of course, we're lucky to live in a time with medical and technological advancements making life quite nice for us.. but in terms of careers and income potential.. where do we go from here? Grads aren't even close to being able to afford a home, and that's not *just* because of student loans. Second jobs are needed to pay for COL.

Obviously thats diving off topic, but it is a consequence of higher education in 2025 and beyond. College isn't going to make sense for anyone other than a doctor, lawyer, finance student and a few other careers.

 

[BigBlueDave]

Nope

That's a shame. If it was done this way at UofL or the other state schools, that would be one thing.



UK in house university wide scholarships.

Incoming Freshmen Scholarships | Student Success

studentsuccess.uky.edu

GS scholarships at Kentucky Colleges and Universities.

Scholarships - Governor's Scholars Program

gsp.ky.gov

 

[KYExtemper]

Nope

That's just criminal then. That program was a big reason why I was able to do an undergrad degree with no loans.

 

[Bill Cosby]

For $20 per month you can have a conversation with a fake person with the collective knowledge of humanity throughout written history.

Much better than some arrogant dweeb with a phd.

The entire college education system needs to be rethought. The only value at this point is networking and refining social skills.

 

[bthaunert]

Companies using these colleges as pointless middle men is what pisses me off. I also think this is predatorial lending to college kids who have no concept of living on their own, paying for shit, or even understand debt. We just give out these massive loans despite the lack of ROI?

College has become a country club to party and eff around. Very few majors are worth anything. To me, shit that has no real world value should not even be a department. When I was in college, they would make us take these 'diversity' courses where it had zero to do with your major. It would be stuff like Religious Studies, American studies, etc. There would be people whose major was 'American Studies.' WTF are you going to do with that degree and was that really worth the major debt?

The government getting involved is what effed everything. That and the bloated pork that is known as the admin.

🙋‍♂️ University Administration bloated pork here 😂

 

[d2atTech]

It may be a hard sell, but this ain't the 80s and 90s anymore. There is no more "go party for 4 years, get handed a degree, become mid to upper class".. the times have changed and the youth need to be presented this, in some fashion, or else they are going to be broke with a degree that barely keeps up with the pay, or worse, a completely useless degree.

Theres always been the notion that whatever generation you are, you had it better than what your parents had, and they had it better than your grandparents. I think that growth rate is starting to flatten. Now of course, we're lucky to live in a time with medical and technological advancements making life quite nice for us.. but in terms of careers and income potential.. where do we go from here? Grads aren't even close to being able to afford a home, and that's not *just* because of student loans. Second jobs are needed to pay for COL.

Obviously thats diving off topic, but it is a consequence of higher education in 2025 and beyond. College isn't going to make sense for anyone other than a doctor, lawyer, finance student and a few other careers.

This is so on topic sir. This is exactly the problem with college and employment today. If people were valued on what they know and how they think, the college the go to (if at all) shouldn't matter. Outside of professions that require licensing (like those above) why do people need to go to college at all?

 

[KYExtemper]

This is so on topic sir. This is exactly the problem with college and employment today. If people were valued on what they know and how they think, the college the go to (if at all) shouldn't matter. Outside of professions that require licensing (like those above) why do people need to go to college at all?

Because businesses have started to require a bachelor's for employment, even for jobs that did not warrant that type of education decades ago. There's also less of a willingness of businesses to train their own workforce like they used to either, so that creates issues.

 

[Kaizer Sosay]

Interesting article on this very topic. This Brown University student went to the extreme to get some answers on what exactly his $93,000 per year is paying for at Brown. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Bold mothereffer with a little tech know-how and some really big cajones…


https://www.foxnews.com/media/ivy-l...arm-non-faculty-staff-sending-doge-like-email

 

[HymanKaplan]

Nashville Diesel is 13,000

 

[gamecockcat]

Interesting article on this very topic. This Brown University student went to the extreme to get some answers on what exactly his $93,000 per year is paying for at Brown. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Bold mothereffer with a little tech know-how and some really big cajones…


https://www.foxnews.com/media/ivy-l...arm-non-faculty-staff-sending-doge-like-email

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the majority of 4-year universities are organized the exact same way with bloated bureaucracies, payrolls and employees who add very little to the educational experience at these very expensive universities. One admin for every 2 undergrad and twice as many admin personnel as faculty. So, $93k/yr cost - sound like 2/3 of it goes to non-faculty who mostly never interact with a student and my suspicion is that their 'job' could be eliminated without a single student being affected. Makes perfect sense.

 

[d2atTech]

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the majority of 4-year universities are organized the exact same way with bloated bureaucracies, payrolls and employees who add very little to the educational experience at these very expensive universities. One admin for every 2 undergrad and twice as many admin personnel as faculty. So, $93k/yr cost - sound like 2/3 of it goes to non-faculty who mostly never interact with a student and my suspicion is that their 'job' could be eliminated without a single student being affected. Makes perfect sense.

At least for one (non-Brown) institution that I know well, this is true. A travesty. Also, professors are often poor teachers or poor managers or both.

 

[d2atTech]

Because businesses have started to require a bachelor's for employment, even for jobs that did not warrant that type of education decades ago. There's also less of a willingness of businesses to train their own workforce like they used to either, so that creates issues.

This is a great point, and one that I failed to realize over years till you pointed this out. In some sense, another way for me to frame the paradigm is: business abdicated education to colleges, who might have implemented it well at first, but now view college as an expensive degree mill.

 

[HeismaNole]

Having 3,800 admins for less than 12K students is the perfect representation of college today.

 

[UKGrad93]

It is always interesting to me how so many people are sure about how a college or university is ran when they have never worked at one. I can say the same for pharmaceutical companies and hospitals/medical care offices.

 

[vhcat70]

Lexington wouldn't have an economy w/o all the UK administrators.

 

[d2atTech]

It is always interesting to me how so many people are sure about how a college or university is ran when they have never worked at one. I can say the same for pharmaceutical companies and hospitals/medical care offices.

Sir, you make a very good point. My opinions are formed two ways: One, I've worked at two schools as faculty. Two I have unnaturally good information on financials, operations, and gaps that no one but the president and trustees would have access to on the operating side for a single school. The bloat at this particular school is real, as is the mismanagement. the NIL saga has broader implications on this for schools well beyond athletics (e.g. are students employees?) that might drive better management. It will require sweeping changes to student loan infrastructure to realign interests.

 

[HeismaNole]

It is always interesting to me how so many people are sure about how a college or university is ran when they have never worked at one. I can say the same for pharmaceutical companies and hospitals/medical care offices.

I don’t think that example works. If you graduated college and had a major that interacts with the admin, you get a good look at things. It’s also not much different than the bloated waste in public schools in general where they saw a giant rise in admin but not teachers.