Cal's Tenure = Pitino's (8 years)

[WildMoon]

I guess you are serious about that.

Do you realize how good Derek Anderson was? Consider that Ron Mercer was 3rd in voting for national player of the year. But Derek was the best player on the team.

But most knowledgeable Kentucky fans know that the most catastrophic injury in UK history was the Mike Casey's car crash broken leg prior to the 1970 season.

Casey was more outstanding than DAN ISSEL in their sophomore season.

In 1970 we went 25-1 before entering the NCAA tournament as #1 in the country -- without the injured Mike Casey.

• 
  Said Issel: "I'm convinced in my mind that if Mike had been able to play his senior year and been the player he was his sophomore and junior years, we would have had a great opportunity to add another championship banner to Kentucky's total."
  

I guess you really don't see the big picture.

First, no one is arguing that Alex Poythress is the better player, because he isn't. Alex Poythress would never been All-American. No one is arguing that point.

Second, 15' season being national title is all they have in common, but the differentiating factor is that UK would be the first team to be undefeated since 70s. First team to be 40 - 0. Even Casey was healthy, and going undefeated it still be during era when undefeated was more common.

What UK was trying to do in 2015 is FAR GREATER than what they were trying to do in 97 or 70. Not to mention the media now and then. In era of mid majors making an impact...completely incomprehensible.

Third, Alex Poythress was major defensive specialist during that 2015 season. Luke Winn did an article on impact of Alex Poythress Injury. But what it also did was, it collapsed our platoon system. We tried for next 10-12 games, but Coach Cal slowly got rid of it. We couldn't go 5 in and 5 out. This completely changed our dynamics. The result back to more traditional line-up, which really took away our major advantage. SO when Poythress got injured, it impacted not just Poythress but every single player on the roster. (not something OTHER players that got injured can say)

 

[mktmaker]

WildMoon,

I guess we will agree to disagree.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

I guess you really don't see the big picture.

First, no one is arguing that Alex Poythress is the better player, because he isn't. Alex Poythress would never been All-American. No one is arguing that point.

Second, 15' season being national title is all they have in common, but the differentiating factor is that UK would be the first team to be undefeated since 70s. First team to be 40 - 0. Even Casey was healthy, and going undefeated it still be during era when undefeated was more common.

What UK was trying to do in 2015 is FAR GREATER than what they were trying to do in 97 or 70. Not to mention the media now and then. In era of mid majors making an impact...completely incomprehensible.

Third, Alex Poythress was major defensive specialist during that 2015 season. Luke Winn did an article on impact of Alex Poythress Injury. But what it also did was, it collapsed our platoon system. We tried for next 10-12 games, but Coach Cal slowly got rid of it. We couldn't go 5 in and 5 out. This completely changed our dynamics. The result back to more traditional line-up, which really took away our major advantage. SO when Poythress got injured, it impacted not just Poythress but every single player on the roster. (not something OTHER players that got injured can say)

We just didn't have another guy capable of playing the 3.

 

[mktmaker]

We just didn't have another guy capable of playing the 3.

Wasn't Trey Lyles a capable replacement?

 

[UKCATSFREAK]

They're a wash IMO. If I were to have to pick id probably lean Rick just because he set up the 98 title.

Of course you would. I wouldn't expect any different from you. Anything that puts Cal behind another coach and you're right on board. You never miss a chance to get that jab in. Way to be consistent!

 

[TnRustyCAT]

They're a wash IMO. If I were to have to pick id probably lean Rick just because he set up the 98 title.

He also dug UK out of a very down time! He left a loaded team when he went to be with the Celtic's!!

 

[ZaytovenCat]

Of course you would. I wouldn't expect any different from you. Anything that puts Cal behind another coach and you're right on board. You never miss a chance to get that jab in. Way to be consistent!

Blah blah blah. Cry me a river. Had Cal closed the deal in just one more of those late tournament runs then I'd put him ahead of Rick easy, but he didn't. Don't get your panties in a wad with me because of all the missed opportunities at titles Cal's had here.

 

[ZaytovenCat]

He also dug UK out of a very down time! He left a loaded team when he went to be with the Celtic's!!

Very true. That's something else, when Cal leaves he will leave us in a huge hole. We will lose our entire team like always except we won't have a coach to put enough talent back into the program to compete. It'll probably take the new coach 3-4 years to dig his way out of the hole that will be left behind and that's if he's really good.

 

[Rupp'sRunt]

If you remember Coach Pitino lost to Arizona in the 1996-1997 because of the Injury to Derek Anderson and was out for the Tourney. Coach Pitino didn't want to risk Anderson's future but was told he could have played in the Final Four. Then in 1997-1998 Tubby Smith takes over Pitino's team and wins it all. So, if Coach Pitino would had stayed longer at UK and if Anderson doesn't get hurt we could had 3 National Championships in a row with Coach Pitino. Coach Pitino's recruiting back in late 90's and heading into the early 2000's was like Coach Cal's recruiting is today. If Coach Pitino doesn't head to Boston Celtics for all that money and stays at UK who knows with his Recruiting and Coaching how many Titles UK would have today.

And maybe sex scandals too!

 

[Blue_2_the_bone]

This is always amusing, when posters say they wanted Donovan when Pitino left.

You guys would be out of your freaking minds if UK hired a 31 year old coach with 20 losses in his two seasons at MARSHALL and went 13-17 in his one year at Florida (he did win one more game the next year to go 14-15)...

When I said he could have possibly won many I was talking about Pitino if he stayed. Not Donovan at UK. Might not have been clear by my post

 

[UKCATSFREAK]

Blah blah blah. Cry me a river. Had Cal closed the deal in just one more of those late tournament runs then I'd put him ahead of Rick easy, but he didn't. Don't get your panties in a wad with me because of all the missed opportunities at titles Cal's had here.

Cry me a river? Really? That's all you do Zaytoven. Constantly! All you do is bitch and bitch and bitch. You know all about crying a damn Amazon river.

 

[UKCATSFREAK]

Very true. That's something else, when Cal leaves he will leave us in a huge hole. We will lose our entire team like always except we won't have a coach to put enough talent back into the program to compete. It'll probably take the new coach 3-4 years to dig his way out of the hole that will be left behind and that's if he's really good.

You're a joke. It won't take a new coach 3-4 years to "dig" us out of anything. And "that's if he's really good"....... Really? Depending on who the next coach is, we may not miss a beat and you do realize that we are UK, right? I'm sure Barnhart is not going to make the same mistake twice with a BCG hire. We aren't some mid major team with no tradition. Our program is bigger than any coach.

Also, I doubt Cal leaves us with nothing anyway. You're distaste for Calipari has completely blinds any kind of logic or reasoning. Either that or you're horrible jaded attitude towards everything makes it impossible for you to see anything but the glass as half empty. I wonder if you're that way about everything or just the Cats.

 

[brianpoe]

amusing or not, that's fine. I'm just telling you who I wanted to get the job.

People with foresight, and those who are not averse to risk, see a whole lot deeper than W-L record.

This is the university of Kentucky basketball team not some start up company.

This is a milestone not stepping stone job.

At the time no one knew BD would end up as good as he is.

 

[morgousky]

Cal 8-2 against the dirty birds

RP 6-2 while he was on the good side

It's undeniable proof that programs DO matter.

 

[morgousky]

And if "ifs and buts" we're candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas. He didn't, that's it period. There are what ifs with every team. Bledsoe's ankle wasn't healthy that tournament with Wall and Cousins. Willie's injury, Poytress injury, and so on. UK may have won 10 or they may have never made another Title game. Not sure he could have won that title with those guys Tubby did that year. No sense in giving the man something he didn't do.

Oh please with the nonsense that Rick couldn't have won with 5 NBA players that were HIS recruits at UK in 98. That crap was started by Rick himself pumping Tubby at UK and some of you buy it. In what world could Tubby Smith win a title with a team Pitino couldn't? Wake up.

 

[morgousky]

Billy would have been a stretch at that time. He was in his 3rd year as a head coach coming off a 13-17 season at Florida and yet to make any post season tournaments. That's just not a chance that a program coming off back-to-back National Championship games take.

It is, however, a fact that the team itself wanted Billy Donovan not Tubby. They knew something about it don't ya think? Donovan was an up and comer though, and we got the title out of Tubby. In hindsight we should have hired Donovan. There's no telling what he would have done at UK.

 

[morgousky]

No. Can you read? I said that you can't give someone credit for what might have been because there's no guarantee of it happening. Actually statistically it's unlikely it would've happened the same way. Florida pulled off a back to back, a number one class with a revolutionary coach and never turned it into another title. It's no guarantee. You said "We're not Florida". My comparison showed that even though we're Kentucky, it didn't save us through bad coaches.

The Yankees hire bad coaches. The stl cardinals hire bad coaches. The Lakers hire bad coaches. The Celtics hire bad coaches. This is not a perfect world it's going to happen especially when you hit a period of time with an incompetent AD. The point is UK with the RIGHT coach, much like the Yankees or cardinals, can be unstoppable. Donovan at UK would not have resulted in a firing. His time at Florida proves that now.

 

[brianpoe]

It is, however, a fact that the team itself wanted Billy Donovan not Tubby. They knew something about it don't ya think? Donovan was an up and comer though, and we got the title out of Tubby. In hindsight we should have hired Donovan. There's no telling what he would have done at UK.

Major hindsight, BD was never a consideration.

BD, former U.K. Asst, 3 seasons as a head coach with 35 losses.

Tubby, former U.K. Asst, 3 S16s, 2 at Tulsa, 1 at Georgia in his first season.

Tubby was by far the hotter coaching prospect. No one was upset with the hire at the time.

Then the title in year one, automatic 10 years here if he wanted.

 

[3rex]

This is the university of Kentucky basketball team not some start up company.

This is a milestone not stepping stone job.

At the time no one knew BD would end up as good as he is.

Hey, thinking like yours got us Tubby, who by the way hadn't accomplished anything outstanding either outside of a couple of Sweet 16s at Tulsa & Georgia...stop the presses!!!

Thinking like those who are not afraid of risk would've got us Billy D. The difference in the 2 is monumental. And BD had served as an assistant. People knew what he was about, what kind of style he would play, and could foresee him being a successful college basketball coach. What he has accomplished has been no surprise to those who knew him then.

 

[3rex]

No one was upset with the hire at the time.

Couldn't be more wrong. I knew lots who were upset with the hire at the time. We handed the job to a coach who hadn't accomplished anything of significance without even opening up the process to see who would apply, who might be interested, etc.
It made no sense then & still doesn't...

 

[bthaunert]

It is, however, a fact that the team itself wanted Billy Donovan not Tubby. They knew something about it don't ya think? Donovan was an up and comer though, and we got the title out of Tubby. In hindsight we should have hired Donovan. There's no telling what he would have done at UK.

Yes, I do remember the players wanted Billy. It should also be noted that none of them played on a team at UK where Tubby was an assistant. I agree that there is no telling what would have happened under Billy.

I still can't imagine plucking a 30 year old with a 48-37/23-21 record and no post-season experience (not even an NIT) as the coach of a team coming off a National Championship and Runner-up. That would have been a HUGE gamble (it most likely would have paid off) that they weren't comfortable taking at the time. So, they went with Tubby, who was the most successful Pitino protege and it was pretty obvious they wanted to keep the Pitino train rolling, so they kept it within his coaching tree. At the time, it was a good hire.

 

[bthaunert]

Hey, thinking like yours got us Tubby, who by the way hadn't accomplished anything outstanding either outside of a couple of Sweet 16s at Tulsa & Georgia...stop the presses!!!

Thinking like those who are not afraid of risk would've got us Billy D. The difference in the 2 is monumental. And BD had served as an assistant. People knew what he was about, what kind of style he would play, and could foresee him being a successful college basketball coach. What he has accomplished has been no surprise to those who knew him then.

Not sure I follow your logic here. You were ok taking a chance on BD, but not Tubby, regardless of both of them being assistants at UK under Pitino and the fact that Tubby had been a much more successful head coach when the job opened up?

 

[3rex]

Yes I valued BD over Tubby. I didn't & still don't see doing cartwheels because someone took a couple of teams to the Sweet 16. But then, that was not the real reason we went with Tubby.

At the time, BD was my choice BUT I also wanted them to open up the process. See who from across the country, from CBB or the NBA might be interested. we were on top of the mountain & coaches would've come out of the woodwork to express interest, in my opinion. And we just gave it to someone without pursuing any of that. Boggled the mind then. Still does.

 

[kb22stang]

Teams were terrified to play us. A lot of games were over in the first four minutes.

This is so true, and if you were watching then it's impossible to understand. P had teams that were long and fast and deep and they pressed people to the point of giving up. The runs happened so fast it was ridiculous. A tie game could turn into a 20 point lead in about 5-6 minutes.

Say what you want about P but his time here was filled with teams that demolished people.

 

[awf]

If you remember Coach Pitino lost to Arizona in the 1996-1997 because of the Injury to Derek Anderson and was out for the Tourney. Coach Pitino didn't want to risk Anderson's future but was told he could have played in the Final Four. Then in 1997-1998 Tubby Smith takes over Pitino's team and wins it all. So, if Coach Pitino would had stayed longer at UK and if Anderson doesn't get hurt we could had 3 National Championships in a row with Coach Pitino. Coach Pitino's recruiting back in late 90's and heading into the early 2000's was like Coach Cal's recruiting is today. If Coach Pitino doesn't head to Boston Celtics for all that money and stays at UK who knows with his Recruiting and Coaching how many Titles UK would have today.

IF my aunt had nuts she would be my Uncle. Pitino is a POS. I am glad he is at Whoreville and that UK has Cal.

 

[bthaunert]

Yes I valued BD over Tubby. I didn't & still don't see doing cartwheels because someone took a couple of teams to the Sweet 16. But then, that was not the real reason we went with Tubby.

At the time, BD was my choice BUT I also wanted them to open up the process. See who from across the country, from CBB or the NBA might be interested. we were on top of the mountain & coaches would've come out of the woodwork to express interest, in my opinion. And we just gave it to someone without pursuing any of that. Boggled the mind then. Still does.

I also think that opening up the process would have been intriguing. But I also can see why they wanted to keep it in the family with Pitino ties since we were the best program in college basketball at the time.

As for the Sweet 16's, you have to compare it the school they are at. At UGA, you're talking about a program who had been out of the first round once in their entire history prior to Tubby taking them to the Sweet Sixteen. At Tulsa, they had been out of the first round twice in their entire history prior to Tubby going to back-to-back Sweet Sixteens. Again, I agree they should have opened it up, I understand why they didn't and between Tubby and Billy D, it wasn't even a comparison between who was ready at the time.

Just curious, what about Billy D, at that time, did you like so much? I loved Billy at the time too, he was almost like Pitino light.

 

[3rex]

I agree that you have to look at the school. At the same time, while that Sweet 16 may deservedly warrant a look & consideration for the coach at the Roman Empire of College Basketball, it shouldn't, in my opinion, make you the hands down man for the job without seeing who might want to come. That's what I didn't understand at the time. Still don't.

And we have to apply the "consider the school" to BD as well. He was not going to take Marshall to a Sweet 16, or even a Florida in the first year or 2 after taking over a down program.

BD had played under & coached under RP and by all indications, wanted to play the same style that the fans had grown to love & had brought an amazing run of success. The players loved him as well. He had success at Marshall. I thought he had the makings of s great coach. And, like you, I saw him as a Pitino lite, and I was all for that.
All that said, while I loved BD, I wanted them to open it up & see who we could get.

 

[mktmaker]

When Pitino was having his spectacular success at UK, Georgia Tech coach Bobby Cremins caused a kerfuffle among ACC fans (especially Carolina and Duke) when he referred to Pitino as "The Man in college basketball."

I thought the Tubby hire was a great one. I thought he would continue the course, but would be a better recruiter. The annual Pitino flirtations with the NBA were fodder for our competitors to recruit against us.

CM Newton explained that he had considered making an offer to John Calipari. However, he said the similarities to Pitino were just too prevalent. He said in comparison to Pitino, Calipari would always come up short (such as charisma).

 

[brianpoe]

Hey, thinking like yours got us Tubby, who by the way hadn't accomplished anything outstanding either outside of a couple of Sweet 16s at Tulsa & Georgia...stop the presses!!!

Thinking like those who are not afraid of risk would've got us Billy D. The difference in the 2 is monumental. And BD had served as an assistant. People knew what he was about, what kind of style he would play, and could foresee him being a successful college basketball coach. What he has accomplished has been no surprise to those who knew him then.

Couldn't be more wrong. I knew lots who were upset with the hire at the time. We handed the job to a coach who hadn't accomplished anything of significance without even opening up the process to see who would apply, who might be interested, etc.
It made no sense then & still doesn't...

@bthaunert is absolutely correct in his statements above.

Tubby in no way brought Pitino ball back to UK, but this is what doesn't make sense -

you acting like you knew that a 31 year old coach with 3 years of experience and 35 losses, only 1 season at a major school with a losing record would be a much better coach than what Tubby was doing at the same time.

And then Tubby won a title his very first year here, the same year BD had yet another losing season - back to back.

Not many are going to buy what you are trying to sell with this stuff regardless of the Tubby hate.

 

[3rex]

@bthaunert is absolutely correct in his statements above.

Tubby in no way brought Pitino ball back to UK, but this is what doesn't make sense -

you acting like you knew that a 31 year old coach with 3 years of experience and 35 losses, only 1 season at a major school with a losing record would be a much better coach than what Tubby was doing at the same time.

And then Tubby won a title his very first year here, the same year BD had yet another losing season - back to back.

Not many are going to buy what you are trying to sell with this stuff regardless of the Tubby hate.

I'm not selling anything, and I never said or acted like I knew what BD was going to do. I don't have a crystal ball. I simply said that, at the time, BD was who I wanted. Simple as that.

Did you know what Tubby was going to do here before he was hired?

 

[LeonThe Camel]

Was thinking today that now is the time to do a true comparison of Calipari's tenure at UK compared to the popular 8-year UK Pitino run since Cal has now completed the same timeframe as coach. I'll start with:

Cal - 1 Title, 1 Runner-Up, 4 Total Final Fours
Pitino - 1 Title, 1 Runner-Up, 3 Total Final Fours

Those are the biggest things that matter so Cal has the edge with an extra Final Four. I'll leave it to others to crunch the other numbers (I'm too lazy).

Cal had to resurrect the BCG years, but brought in a ready to play team.
Pitino had to deal with sanctions from Sutton and rebuild the brand. He lost a couple of years from that alone.
To be 1 FF different, edge Pitino.

 

[brianpoe]

I'm not selling anything, and I never said or acted like I knew what BD was going to do. I don't have a crystal ball. I simply said that, at the time, BD was who I wanted. Simple as that.

Did you know what Tubby was going to do here before he was hired?

Yes, I did. Tubby was going to be a Pitino disciple and he was going to continue to play exciting basketball and win, possibly recruit even better...

At least that was the story we were all being told at the time. I admit I was good with the hire when it was announced.

I'll also admit you have better fortune guessing powers regarding 30 year old coaches with a losing record than I do, although I liked BD back then, he was never a consideration that early in his career.

 

[3rex]

I was admittedly never a fan of the hire but the Pitino disciple/style of play area was the one where everyone was apparently fooled at the time. It was clear in year one that we were going to play a different brand of basketball...slower, more methodical, etc. I was certainly willing to be supportive. Still had season tickets at that time. But I was quickly turned off by that style of play, especially coming on the heels of an uptempo game that everyone loved.
I do wonder if it was just assumed that he would play at least at a similar pace & style that we'd grown accustomed to since he was an RP assistant...or if it was addressed at interview & Tubby told them what they wanted to hear then did his own thing once hired...or if it just wasn't addressed.
Couldn't really believe that we went away from that style of play & did so in such a stark fashion.

 

[brianpoe]

I was admittedly never a fan of the hire but the Pitino disciple/style of play area was the one where everyone was apparently fooled at the time. It was clear in year one that we were going to play a different brand of basketball...slower, more methodical, etc. I was certainly willing to be supportive. Still had season tickets at that time. But I was quickly turned off by that style of play, especially coming on the heels of an uptempo game that everyone loved.
I do wonder if it was just assumed that he would play at least at a similar pace & style that we'd grown accustomed to since he was an RP assistant...or if it was addressed at interview & Tubby told them what they wanted to hear then did his own thing once hired...or if it just wasn't addressed.
Couldn't really believe that we went away from that style of play & did so in such a stark fashion.

Probably a little of both, how many times were we going to speed it up next year...?

 

[3rex]

Probably a little of both, how many times were we going to speed it up next year...?

ha...pretty much every time he was interviewed or on call in show.

 

[permdaddy]

Considering where the program was when each took over and the fact that Pitino set us up for a title run in 98 you have to give Pitino the edge.

 

[TnRustyCAT]

I give Pitino the edge over all of them at this time! His first two year's UK was not going to any tournament's! His last six season's according to the way some judge their season was GREAT!! JMPO..

 

[morgousky]

Major hindsight, BD iwas never a consideration.

BD, former U.K. Asst, 3 seasons as a head coach with 35 losses.

Tubby, former U.K. Asst, 3 S16s, 2 at Tulsa, 1 at Georgia in his first season.

Tubby was by far the hotter coaching prospect. No one was upset with the hire at the time.

Then the title in year one, automatic 10 years here if he wanted.

Hooo I don't know Brian. I had to hear about how we should have hired Donovan from 2000 on from my people and I know a lot of people who wanted Donovan in the initial process. I think if Tubby fell through it would have been Donovan. It is hindsight and after Tubby won the title for at least a year after we all thought we made the right move.

 

[brianpoe]

Hooo I don't know Brian. I had to hear about how we should have hired Donovan from 2000 on from my people and I know a lot of people who wanted Donovan in the initial process. I think if Tubby fell through it would have been Donovan. It is hindsight and after Tubby won the title for at least a year after we all thought we made the right move.

BD wasn't on the AD's list.

I know for a fact that the players absolutely wanted BD and rumor had it that Pitino even recommended him.

Pitino and Tubby clashed a bit at UK if you remember, Tubster hated those mandatory 6 am coaches games.

And to be honest BD wasn't nearly as highly regarded or the hot prospect coach that Tubby was on the national scene at the time.

CM hired the hot coach, a former assistant, and a black coach - which would be good for UK he thought - of course when any grumblings occurred it was always due to race...



I always liked Billy, even started watching Marshall games.

We picked up #8 with Tubby, would have been interesting to see what BD could have done at UK.

 

[oldfanofuk]

I loved Pitino's player and style of play...........But i still hate that POS.

Ill take Cal over him any day.