Cal’s Legacy At UK vs. Pitino’s

[LineSkiCat14]

First of all, you brought it up. Second, the fact that he did it TWICE at a crap school is a good indicator that he wasn't washed up when he left in 1997. It's very likely that if he could do it at U6, he could do it again at UK. Third, I wasn't saying he would have had the exact same run as he did from 96-98. That's a straw man.

My point about the slight drop off was just to illustrate that this run he had in the 90s was likely going to level off a bit. If Pitino coaches another 6 or 7 years, and say he gets another Final4, but also a few 2nd round losses, maybe a sweet 16, and maybe even an opening upset (all things I think even the GREATEST coaches go through).. does that not bring his overall career at UK down, even just a bit?

If we can say "Pitino wasn't given the same amount of chances as Cal".. my reply is "He also wasn't given the same amount of chances to come up short or have a bad year". It was very very VERY unlikely he was going to go to like 4 or 5 final4's and get another title or two, if he coached another 6-7 years. MAYBE he does, I'm not saying he couldn't. But history and track records show that even the best coaches will have several years in a decade, where they are only a 4 or 5 seed or lose in the opening round. Izzo, K, Self, etc. Pitinios 90's run was highly unlikely to be duplicated.

 

[Eight_Banners]

Calipari v. Pitino while at UMASS: 1-4
Calipari v. Pitino while at UK: 8-2, including two huge wins in the NCAAT over UL.

The programs were at all-time lows when each arrived at UK. Pitino inherited a worse situation, but if Calipari hadn't brought along his Memphis class, that 2009-2010 wouldn't have had much to work with. They both did a great job reviving the program and the fanbase.

As for the question of who will have the greater UK historical legacy, I cannot overlook character in giving an answer. Pitino is a self-consumed man, who was/is a great basketball coach. Calipari certainly has moments of extreme arrogance, but overall, he seems like he understands the importance of UK basketball, while also realizing there are far more important things in life than basketball. I always said that UK couldn't have had a greater ambassador for the program than Tubby Smith, given his involvement in the community, but that I wasn't looking for a humanitarian Superman to coach my favorite basketball team. For that job, I want the best coach, not the best human being. With Calipari, I think we got one of the best coaches, who also happens to be heavily involved in the betterment of the state and of the lives of the player. I know that his player-focus is problematic for a fanbase that just wants to win basketball games. At the end of the day, however, it truly is the players who are working for our entertainment and bragging rights, and they deserve their earnings, and have a right to whatever decision they desire. For Calipari to work to improve their entire life, rather than giving us an ultimately meaningless Final Four or Championship, is the right thing, whether we like it or not.

With the exception of 2020-2021, Calipari's years here have been good, on the court and off. College basketball is college basketball, and there is a ton of heartbreak built-in to a game that is played by teenagers, decides a champion based on a one-and-done tournament, and more so when you're a UK fan and want to hang a banner every single year. Has he been the best coach during his time at UK? For six years, he was. Overall, the only coach that has been inarguably better is Bill Self. Calipari could be argued into second place over the last fifteen years with any other coach.

I hope that his legacy is stronger, all things considered. Simple results on the court being the only thing considered, I still think his legacy should be equivalent to Pitino, simply because from 2009-2015, Calipari's best years, were comparable to anything Pitino did while at UK.

 

[crestcat]

Calipari v. Pitino while at UMASS: 1-4
Calipari v. Pitino while at UK: 8-2, including two huge wins in the NCAAT over UL.

The programs were at all-time lows when each arrived at UK. Pitino inherited a worse situation, but if Calipari hadn't brought along his Memphis class, that 2009-2010 wouldn't have had much to work with. They both did a great job reviving the program and the fanbase.

As for the question of who will have the greater UK historical legacy, I cannot overlook character in giving an answer. Pitino is a self-consumed man, who was/is a great basketball coach. Calipari certainly has moments of extreme arrogance, but overall, he seems like he understands the importance of UK basketball, while also realizing there are far more important things in life than basketball. I always said that UK couldn't have had a greater ambassador for the program than Tubby Smith, given his involvement in the community, but that I wasn't looking for a humanitarian Superman to coach my favorite basketball team. For that job, I want the best coach, not the best human being. With Calipari, I think we got one of the best coaches, who also happens to be heavily involved in the betterment of the state and of the lives of the player. I know that his player-focus is problematic for a fanbase that just wants to win basketball games. At the end of the day, however, it truly is the players who are working for our entertainment and bragging rights, and they deserve their earnings, and have a right to whatever decision they desire. For Calipari to work to improve their entire life, rather than giving us an ultimately meaningless Final Four or Championship, is the right thing, whether we like it or not.

With the exception of 2020-2021, Calipari's years here have been good, on the court and off. College basketball is college basketball, and there is a ton of heartbreak built-in to a game that is played by teenagers, decides a champion based on a one-and-done tournament, and more so when you're a UK fan and want to hang a banner every single year. Has he been the best coach during his time at UK? For six years, he was. Overall, the only coach that has been inarguably better is Bill Self. Calipari could be argued into second place over the last fifteen years with any other coach.

I hope that his legacy is stronger, all things considered. Simple results on the coach being the only thing considered, I still think his legacy should be equivalent to Pitino, simply because from 2009-2015, Calipari's best years, were comparable to anything Pitino did while at UK.

Good job Ellen

 

[CRZ4UK]

If Cal gets another title he has to be the number 2 guy whether you love or hate him.

Without that it isn’t even close, especially considering when Cal leaves you likely have 0 returners and recruits that may or may not stay, pitino left a team that won a title.


Without another title it’s pitino by far 2nd and not much difference between the other 3 good coaches Kentucky has had post Rupp.

It’s hard to compare eras. Things change. Pitino would not have left all that talent in this one and done ( Handlers) (Klutch) era. They would have gone pro after their freshman year like Cals do. No way Derek Anderson is back, Sheppard and Miller…. No way. Times change. Looks like they are changing again with NBA talented teams losing to nobody 7th year COVID super seniors. Hard to compare different decades

 

[SemperFiCat]

For me, it comes down to feeling. The Pitino era was so much damn fun. Those teams and style were the pinnacle if you're a fan. Outside of the Davis and platoon squads, Cal's teams didn't quite have that fun feel. I thought we had that for a brief moment with this squad, but not anymore. Pitino steam rolled to the top, and we enjoyed the ride. Cal just feels like he's squandering the Yankees' payroll.

 

[jwphelps]

Both coaches have brought glory to the program and tarnished their reputations here. Which coach in your opinion will have the better retrospective time here IYO?

Well I cannot say Pitino tarnished his reputation here at UK he did that at UofL.

 

[Jont0805]

It’s hard to compare eras. Things change. Pitino would not have left all that talent in this one and done ( Handlers) (Klutch) era. They would have gone pro after their freshman year like Cals do. No way Derek Anderson is back, Sheppard and Miller…. No way. Times change. Looks like they are changing again with NBA talented teams losing to nobody 7th year COVID super seniors. Hard to compare different decades

Yes this is true and imagine pitino having 30-50 first round picks, no telling how that would’ve went.

It is easier to compare eras when they are at the top of the sport. It is all about resources and getting the best players and coaching them into a team.


Both coached at the number one Program in their sport and had all the advantages of that at the time so I think knowing that makes it easier to compare coaches.

Also most highly successful coaches end up coaching in several eras.

Cal and pitino both coached in the era where players stayed longer and benefited from that, Cal benefited much more from one and dones but also was at the best program, both are coaching in the NIL era now and obviously Kentucky has every advantage in that aspect as well.


Guess it boils down to if Pitino and Cal coached the same amount of time at Kentucky who would have ended up with the better results overall? Would be hard to think Pitino wouldn’t have gotten another title in that time.

 

[Midway Cat]

We were a hell of a lot better off than when Pitino took over . Not even close . Are you too young to remember?

Nope. I'm old enough to remember it well. The Pitino era was my favorite as a fan, but the circumstances were significantly different.

With Gillispie, we were on the verge of becoming Indiana. Completely irrelevant. It was a more dangerous situation than the beginning of Pitino because we couldn't blame probation for our woes. We'd run the train into the side of the mountain all on our own.

Cal saved the program during a much different time period for college basketball. Without him, it's unlikely we would have found much, if any, success during the one-and-done era. We very well could still be sitting on 13 Final Fours and 7 titles at this point, 25 years after our last one in 1998.

 

[crawfords corner]

Strictly basketball I give Pitino🤮 the slight edge(they are closely matched) because he never had the worst season in KENTUCKY BASKETBALL HISTORY(yes that needs to be emphasized). That's quite the embarrassing blemish.

If this were a fantasy(basketball) stat it'd be a -25

 

[CRZ4UK]

Yes this is true and imagine pitino having 30-50 first round picks, no telling how that would’ve went.

It is easier to compare eras when they are at the top of the sport. It is all about resources and getting the best players and coaching them into a team.


Both coached at the number one Program in their sport and had all the advantages of that at the time so I think knowing that makes it easier to compare coaches.

Also most highly successful coaches end up coaching in several eras.

Cal and pitino both coached in the era where players stayed longer and benefited from that, Cal benefited much more from one and dones but also was at the best program, both are coaching in the NIL era now and obviously Kentucky has every advantage in that aspect as well.


Guess it boils down to if Pitino and Cal coached the same amount of time at Kentucky who would have ended up with the better results overall? Would be hard to think Pitino wouldn’t have gotten another title in that time.

I do believe Pitino wins with the 2015 roster. Platoon was stupid. Pitino would have pressed all 40 minutes bringing fresh bodies off the bench and destroying teams. He’s a better X-O coach. Cal is a better salesman. Better at player and family relationships. Pitino didn’t even want players speaking directly to him. Go thru the assistants if you have a problem. If Pitino stayed here he could have flamed out like Cal with one n done. That’s not gonna work any more. Freshman can’t play defense anymore because of AAU ball. It’s not taught. They spend the whole year learning to play some semblance of defense and they are gone. Pitinos model of not coddling players or speaking to families may have completely flamed out over time as well. We will never know.

 

[UKfanINcoach]

1. It's Pitino....not even close.
2. Pitino is the 1996 ring....but the 1998....many fans give Pitino a lot of that credit as he left the talent level at crazy high for Tubby to coach that team to a ring. So, it's almsot like Pitino has 1.5 rings to many.
3. Pitino never had the lows of Cal.....never missed a tournament outside of probation from Sutton.
4. Pitino finished in final AP top 10 every year besides his first year at UK.
5. Pitino got to 3 final fours in 8 years....2 more elite 8 and (and 2 of those years not eligible for post season).
6. Pitino did what was best for him (in his eyes) which was always winning...and thusly winning for UK. He never got into this butt kissing players crap. He made the call to go away from Rod Rhodes...which bounced to the 1996 roster of Derek Anderson, Ron Mercer. He didn't' force Wayne Turner as high rated kid...he played Anthony Epps who fit that roster better. He brought in players like Mark Pope that fit the team needs instead of only wanting high rated guys that maybe didn't fit the system/team needs.

And when Pitino left...vast majority of fanbase hated to see him go but understood the Boston thing he felt he had to scratch that northeastern stuff in his blood. Now going to UL ticked off a ton (including myself) but once you get past that.....Pitino was great for UK and is/was a ton better than Cal (who has been very good...but not elite).

Hands down for me Pitino! Those were the most enjoyable years to watch. Just fun basketball. How about the full court press the entire game! Even when they lost you felt they left it all on the court. You knew Rick would always have a good game plan. If you had the same quality of players on both teams Cal would lose every time. Fortunate for Cal his teams were stacked against Lville Pitino.

 

[know1]

Nope. I'm old enough to remember it well. The Pitino era was my favorite as a fan, but the circumstances were significantly different.

With Gillispie, we were on the verge of becoming Indiana. Completely irrelevant. It was a more dangerous situation than the beginning of Pitino because we couldn't blame probation for our woes. We'd run the train into the side of the mountain all on our own.

Cal saved the program during a much different time period for college basketball. Without him, it's unlikely we would have found much, if any, success during the one-and-done era. We very well could still be sitting on 13 Final Fours and 7 titles at this point, 25 years after our last one in 1998.

Cal's record the last 5 years is barely ahead of the 5 years that preceded him. Does that mean we're on the verge of becoming Indiana again now? And if you just take 3 years (So Billy G plus Tubby's last), it's worse.

 

[yoshukai]

Nope. I'm old enough to remember it well. The Pitino era was my favorite as a fan, but the circumstances were significantly different.

With Gillispie, we were on the verge of becoming Indiana. Completely irrelevant. It was a more dangerous situation than the beginning of Pitino because we couldn't blame probation for our woes. We'd run the train into the side of the mountain all on our own.

Cal saved the program during a much different time period for college basketball. Without him, it's unlikely we would have found much, if any, success during the one-and-done era. We very well could still be sitting on 13 Final Fours and 7 titles at this point, 25 years after our last one in 1998.

We had just dodged the death penalty, were “Kentucky shame “ on sports illustrated , had a decimated roster, CM Newton was having a difficult time finding a coach to take the job . AND WE WERE ON PROBATION. I don’t see how anyone with an ounce of common sense can compare the two . But you be you.

 

[yoshukai]

Looks like Midway Cat leaves laughing emojis when he has no valid argument, lol .

 

[ck-2]

Just curious as to the age of the fans that say Cal? Were they around or old enough to remember the Pitino era?
Like the people who think Lebron is the goat. Were they around to see Jordan, Chamberlain etc?
Not saying they weren’t, just a thought.

 

[Mike-McD]

My point about the slight drop off was just to illustrate that this run he had in the 90s was likely going to level off a bit. If Pitino coaches another 6 or 7 years, and say he gets another Final4, but also a few 2nd round losses, maybe a sweet 16, and maybe even an opening upset (all things I think even the GREATEST coaches go through).. does that not bring his overall career at UK down, even just a bit?

If we can say "Pitino wasn't given the same amount of chances as Cal".. my reply is "He also wasn't given the same amount of chances to come up short or have a bad year". It was very very VERY unlikely he was going to go to like 4 or 5 final4's and get another title or two, if he coached another 6-7 years. MAYBE he does, I'm not saying he couldn't. But history and track records show that even the best coaches will have several years in a decade, where they are only a 4 or 5 seed or lose in the opening round. Izzo, K, Self, etc. Pitinios 90's run was highly unlikely to be duplicated.

You continue to ignore my point, which is that Pitino DID go to two more Final Fours, and he did so at an inferior school. Not only that, but how many of the 2013 title team's players had any kind of meaningful career in the NBA?

Your position is, literally, that he would have done WORSE here if he had stayed than he did when he went to U6, which by the way wasn't immediately - remember there was a Boston parenthesis. That's absurd on its face.

I never said he would go to 4 or 5 Final Fours and get two more titles. That's another straw man on your part. I simply said it's easy to assume that he would have AT LEAST equaled his achievements at U6, which means at least one more title and two more FFs. You seem to be having trouble accepting that reality.

 

[Mike-McD]

Strictly basketball I give Pitino🤮 the slight edge(they are closely matched) because he never had the worst season in KENTUCKY BASKETBALL HISTORY(yes that needs to be emphasized). That's quite the embarrassing blemish.

If this were a fantasy(basketball) stat it'd be a -25

Pitino also didn't miss the tournament after 1990. Cal's missed it twice.

 

[Midway Cat]

Looks like Midway Cat leaves laughing emojis when he has no valid argument, lol .

I've already explained myself.

We disagree. Fine by me.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

You continue to ignore my point, which is that Pitino DID go to two more Final Fours, and he did so at an inferior school. Not only that, but how many of the 2013 title team's players had any kind of meaningful career in the NBA?

Your position is, literally, that he would have done WORSE here if he had stayed than he did when he went to U6, which by the way wasn't immediately - remember there was a Boston parenthesis. That's absurd on its face.

I never said he would go to 4 or 5 Final Fours and get two more titles. That's another straw man on your part. I simply said it's easy to assume that he would have AT LEAST equaled his achievements at U6, which means at least one more title and two more FFs. You seem to be having trouble accepting that reality.

Lol, either way, we will never know.

Talk about accepting reality. Watching some of you try and create a fake universe where Pitino has more final 4s here is comical. How about their head to head record the last 15 years? How about, oh I don't know.. cheating and vacated titles at UofL???

If Cal gets to another Final 4 it's literally going to break some of you.

 

[BigBlue1992]

1. It's Pitino....not even close.
2. Pitino is the 1996 ring....but the 1998....many fans give Pitino a lot of that credit as he left the talent level at crazy high for Tubby to coach that team to a ring. So, it's almsot like Pitino has 1.5 rings to many.
3. Pitino never had the lows of Cal.....never missed a tournament outside of probation from Sutton.
4. Pitino finished in final AP top 10 every year besides his first year at UK.
5. Pitino got to 3 final fours in 8 years....2 more elite 8 and (and 2 of those years not eligible for post season).
6. Pitino did what was best for him (in his eyes) which was always winning...and thusly winning for UK. He never got into this butt kissing players crap. He made the call to go away from Rod Rhodes...which bounced to the 1996 roster of Derek Anderson, Ron Mercer. He didn't' force Wayne Turner as high rated kid...he played Anthony Epps who fit that roster better. He brought in players like Mark Pope that fit the team needs instead of only wanting high rated guys that maybe didn't fit the system/team needs.

And when Pitino left...vast majority of fanbase hated to see him go but understood the Boston thing he felt he had to scratch that northeastern stuff in his blood. Now going to UL ticked off a ton (including myself) but once you get past that.....Pitino was great for UK and is/was a ton better than Cal (who has been very good...but not elite).

Dude you’re out of your damn mind.

They both have one title, Pitino won his in in year 7 and Cal won his in year 3. Advantage Cal.

Pitino’s 8 years, he went to 3 final fours with 1 title. Cal’s first 8 years, 4 final fours and 1 title. Advantage Cal.

Then you go on and hand over half of Tubby’s 98 title and give it to Pitino. That may be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Ole Tubby is coaching his ass off in Lexington but you wanna hand it over to somebody who didn’t wanna be here who was then in Boston. Seriously.. I’ve never heard of anybody doing that so congratulations!

Cal has had low years here no doubt. But you can’t go off what if’s with Pitino had he stayed. He went to a couple NIT’s at UL, a top 8-10 program also. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have here too? You can’t say!

Do I think Pitino is the better X’s and O’s coach? Yeah probably so. But UK legacy wise, he did not have a better career here than Cal. It is comparable but not better so quit acting like it’s not close.

 

[K_TIME]

Dude you’re out of your damn mind.

They both have one title, Pitino won his in in year 7 and Cal won his in year 3. Advantage Cal.

Pitino’s 8 years, he went to 3 final fours with 1 title. Cal’s first 8 years, 4 final fours and 1 title. Advantage Cal.

Then you go on and hand over half of Tubby’s 98 title and give it to Pitino. That may be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Ole Tubby is coaching his ass off in Lexington but you wanna hand it over to somebody who didn’t wanna be here who was then in Boston. Seriously.. I’ve never heard of anybody doing that so congratulations!

Cal has had low years here no doubt. But you can’t go off what if’s with Pitino had he stayed. He went to a couple NIT’s at UL, a top 8-10 program also. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have here too? You can’t say!

Do I think Pitino is the better X’s and O’s coach? Yeah probably so. But UK legacy wise, he did not have a better career here than Cal. It is comparable but not better so quit acting like it’s not close.

There are like 25 people liking that post.....and it represents a section of fanbase.

I get your points and can see how giving Pitino some credit for a title he wasn't coaching is a stretch...but the point is he left the roster in amazing shape that got the program to #7....and vast majority of fans care about the program. So that is why I feel that way for what Pitino did for the program. (I highlight the program as that is what most fans care about which is sorely missing in Cal)

Secondly, I don't get why winning a title/final fours earlier is a bigger deal vs. winning a title/final fouls later in your tenure. At the end of the day....Pitino did the same accomplishments as Cal in nearly half the years. So Cal is stayed at UK longer...and done nothing but decline the longer he's at UK.

Finally, you are right nobody can know for sure if Pitino would not have fallen off as badly as Cal has if he had stayed at UK. But given what he did accomplish at UL and Iona....I'm pretty confident in my gut.....little to no chance he'd fall off like Cal. I'd argue Pitino at UK another decade....we'd have 2 more rings with him as coach...and he'd go down at 2nd best UK coach ever behind Rupp...and a distant gap to the next tier. (He may have passed Rupp as Saban did Bear Bryant for Bama).

 

[Seakat311]

Both are great coaches, hall of fame. Pitino used UK as a stepping stone to make a bigger name for himself to get to the league. He was never going to stay at UK. I remember the last 2-3 years he was here and the Pitino watch and which NBA team was coming after him. That was fostered by Pitino. He couldn’t wait to get back to the NBA. I just find it a bit ironic that many of the people on here talking how great Pitino was, are the same posters that will bash Cal and players for focusing on getting to the NBA as soon as they can, just like Pitino did.

 

[BigBlue1992]

There are like 25 people liking that post.....and it represents a section of fanbase.

I get your points and can see how giving Pitino some credit for a title he wasn't coaching is a stretch...but the point is he left the roster in amazing shape that got the program to #7....and vast majority of fans care about the program. So that is why I feel that way for what Pitino did for the program. (I highlight the program as that is what most fans care about which is sorely missing in Cal)

Secondly, I don't get why winning a title/final fours earlier is a bigger deal vs. winning a title/final fouls later in your tenure. At the end of the day....Pitino did the same accomplishments as Cal in nearly half the years. So Cal is stayed at UK longer...and done nothing but decline the longer he's at UK.

Finally, you are right nobody can know for sure if Pitino would not have fallen off as badly as Cal has if he had stayed at UK. But given what he did accomplish at UL and Iona....I'm pretty confident in my gut.....little to no chance he'd fall off like Cal. I'd argue Pitino at UK another decade....we'd have 2 more rings with him as coach...and he'd go down at 2nd best UK coach ever behind Rupp...and a distant gap to the next tier. (He may have passed Rupp as Saban did Bear Bryant for Bama).

Sorry I don’t live off of nor get high on message board and social media likes. I live in reality and look at things from my own standpoint even if I’m alone.

What do you mean in half the years? I compared 8 years to 8 years, which is what you have to go by. We’ll never know what Pitino’s future years would’ve looked like. Yes he would’ve been successful but there’s also a chance he gets comfortable too. In that case, Cal did his main accomplishments in half of his own tenure also. See what I mean?

You’re right we’ll never know but he sure fell off at UL in a very embarrassing way. He could’ve done those things here too.

Like I said earlier, if everybody wants to claim that Pitino is a better coach, no argument from me cause I believe he is too. But to say that his UK career/legacy was far better than Cal’s is just totally false.

And this has nothing to do with the argument but Pitino at UL had a very hard time beating Cal when coaching against UK.

 

[crestcat]

Both are great coaches, hall of fame. Pitino used UK as a stepping stone to make a bigger name for himself to get to the league. He was never going to stay at UK. I remember the last 2-3 years he was here and the Pitino watch and which NBA team was coming after him. That was fostered by Pitino. He couldn’t wait to get to the NBA. I just find it a bit ironic that many of the people on here talking how great Pitino was, are the same posters that will bash Cal and players for focusing on getting to the NBA as soon as they can, just like Pitino did.

Pitino came from the league

 

[jjsomer]

One loved Big blue nation , One thinks it's a group of red neck hillbillies. Thats enough for me .

Pitino loved UK so much he left to coach in the NBA and came back to college to coach at the in-state rival. Hilarious.

 

[ukjenning44]

Calipari v. Pitino while at UMASS: 1-4
Calipari v. Pitino while at UK: 8-2, including two huge wins in the NCAAT over UL.

My key takeaway from this is that you want to be the man coaching at UK.
You have such an advantage by coaching at UK you should never lose to Evansville, St. Peter’s, and UNCW type teams. But Cal is making it trendy!

 

[catfan in loserville]

Cal already passed Rick. Sane amount of titles.

Cal never went to loserville, has as many title game appearances and more final fours.

 

[Titpwhami2014]

If Cal had left after 2017 or 2019, I would have picked Cal. But as it stands, I will look back fonder at the Pitino years.