Best UL post on Sanctions ever!

[kybassfan]

Louisville fan here. I thought I'd post my thoughts on this whole thing.

I want to make this very clear - I am not defending what happened. It was repugnant. Whatever penalty the program gets - including losing the banner - I totally understand it. What happened (underage hookers for underage recruits) was just gross and yes that word repugnant.

I am saying that if we're going to fight it, you address the value of the "benefits." The amount per the NCAA was $5800. Divide $5800 across 4 years and that's $121 per month across like 15-20 recruits. The NCAA stated that recruits were turned off by what happened. Recruiting rankings per 247/Scout/Rivals went up after this thing stopped. Louisville leans went elsewhere after their visits. Ergo, no recruiting advantage was obtained by this horrible thing. That's the argument you make when you get in front of the NCAA Appeals Committee - any "benefits" were negligible, there was no recruiting advantage, and you use the NCAA's own words to argue this.

Every player on those 2012 and 2013 teams would have been there regardless of this ugly thing. Those players played those games and won those games. I don't want that taken away from those players and from me as a fan. I understand it if it is, but I don't want it. So, I think the above argument is the argument you make.

When a teacher seduces a boy in her class, what she provides to the child is admittedly of very little value. The damage she does is difficult to quantify. Such is always the case with vice. Just how bad is that shot of bourbon when given to a minor.

I think this is in greatest evidence where the jury in a recent trial awarded a minor 1 million in damages and compensation for sexual favors rendered.

 

[NC Weasel]

LOL

Original poster should understand there is a difference between posterior and threatening to sue ..... and actually suing. And then a another difference in winning.

We're talking about providing strippers and hooked to underage boys. I can't image anyone siding WITH that under any scenario.

 

[Morgantown Card]

Well said. You seem like a pretty rational UL fan. Much smarter than the other UL fans it seems.
So you agree that the punishment fits " the crime?" So to speak.

Basically do you agree that UL desrves their punishment for providing underage / prostitues for underage recruits / team players ?

Regardless if you "want" the title vacated (already has been ) or not, you do agree that it's warranted ?


I can say with 100% certainty that if this garbage happened at UK , idgaf I would want Cal and anyone associated with it GONE.

This is Pitinos second sex scandal. Of course
I'm biased a bit bc I'm a UK fan but this destroys your alls "image" even more than it was. The media , other teams fans , common person etc look at UL as a dirty joke of a program so to speak.

My question , do you not want Pitino and company gone ? Honest question

Frank, my direct & honest answer to that question is that I'm too emotionally involved to answer your questions. I moved away from Louisville at age 15 and have lived 4 or 5 places since then. Louisville sports, and other things, are things I took with me. Hard rock music (KISS, most importantly), the Bengals, the Reds, Star Wars and Louisville athletics are all things that people say "Hey man I saw such and such about Kiss/Bengals/Reds/Star Wars/Louisville the other day, and I thought of you." Happens all the time. Big part on my passions. So this is hard. Kind of like admitting the Star Wars prequels aren't very well written, ha.

Now, you and others will probably disagree with me, but I don't believe Rick had anything to do with this. Why? Two reasons. One, you hire Rick Pitino to run a tight ship and clean your program up. For his personal faults, professionally you have to go back to his days in Hawaii (think?) to find anything of substance. Two, one tends to get more conservative in their approach as they get older. I can't see Rick hitting 60 and then "Hey, I have a great idea - let's have a brothel with underage whores for recruits and their dads." I can't prove any of this of course. I can point to the NCAA's findings which say the same thing in regards to Rick's involvement, for whatever that is worth. I know most will disagree and that's fine. We disagree.

Honestly, I expected Rick to be suspended for a year, and a 2nd year of post-season ban. That's how you really hurt a program, really make it hurt. I did not expect the NCAA to go after the wins. I suppose they see this as punish the time period involved, not the future (as the current roster wasn't around for any of this).

 

[bigbluehomer]

but I don't believe Rick had anything to do with this.QUOTE]


If that's your belief, that's fine. But isn't it odd that everybody else in the program, players, managers, assistant coaches, etc. knew about it except Rick. And for 4 years.

If so then it looks like Rick had lost total control of the program. Usually when that happens many other symptoms appear and a program doesn't have the success that UL had during that period. Kudos to Rick for losing total control, but still managing to excel in the W & L's department. However did he do it?

 

[Morgantown Card]

If that's your belief, that's fine. But isn't it odd that everybody else in the program, players, managers, assistant coaches, etc. knew about it except Rick. And for 4 years.

The managers and assistants knew about it? I'm not talking about McGree, he obviously did. And this "Coach Mike," whoever that is. Actually that's an answer I want - who is "Coach Mike"? Katina, if she is to believed, said that "Coach Mike" was a black guy. There were no black "Coach Mikes" on the staff.

 

[Cat78Scot]

Frank, my direct & honest answer to that question is that I'm too emotionally involved to answer your questions. I moved away from Louisville at age 15 and have lived 4 or 5 places since then. Louisville sports, and other things, are things I took with me. Hard rock music (KISS, most importantly), the Bengals, the Reds, Star Wars and Louisville athletics are all things that people say "Hey man I saw such and such about Kiss/Bengals/Reds/Star Wars/Louisville the other day, and I thought of you." Happens all the time. Big part on my passions. So this is hard. Kind of like admitting the Star Wars prequels aren't very well written, ha.

Now, you and others will probably disagree with me, but I don't believe Rick had anything to do with this. Why? Two reasons. One, you hire Rick Pitino to run a tight ship and clean your program up. For his personal faults, professionally you have to go back to his days in Hawaii (think?) to find anything of substance. Two, one tends to get more conservative in their approach as they get older. I can't see Rick hitting 60 and then "Hey, I have a great idea - let's have a brothel with underage whores for recruits and their dads." I can't prove any of this of course. I can point to the NCAA's findings which say the same thing in regards to Rick's involvement, for whatever that is worth. I know most will disagree and that's fine. We disagree.

Honestly, I expected Rick to be suspended for a year, and a 2nd year of post-season ban. That's how you really hurt a program, really make it hurt. I did not expect the NCAA to go after the wins. I suppose they see this as punish the time period involved, not the future (as the current roster wasn't around for any of this).

Honestly appreciate your civil responses on this. You're one of the few.

1. I'm emotionally involved in UK, have been since I was 12 watching basketball for the first time as I saw UK win the 1978 championship. I would want Cal's head if he did or presided over something like this partly because I've defended him hundreds of time, mostly to UofL fans but mostly because my parents taught me right from wrong and to call a spade a spade. Or in this case, a morally deficient, lying sack of sh!t coach a morally deficient, lying sack of sh!t coach.

2. Rick knew. Look at the timing. They had just lost to Morehead St and card fans were getting restless. Cal comes to the state and causes a big splash and has instant success. No way McGee wakes up one day and says 'You know what, I'm gonna set up stripper/hooker parties and pay for it all so we can get some good recruits'. Doesn't have the money and wouldn't do it without Pitino knowing. He, of all people, knew what the Pimp would do to him if he did something like that unauthorized.

Can't have it both ways and say peoples' heads would roll and then claim the guy was a rogue employee. Just not possible.

Edited to add bold text.

 

[VikingCat21]

Louisville fan here. I thought I'd post my thoughts on this whole thing.

I am saying that if we're going to fight it, you address the value of the "benefits." The amount per the NCAA was $5800. Divide $5800 across 4 years and that's $121 per month across like 15-20 recruits.

This is from a CJ article about the appeals process and how difficult it is to get rulings overturned:

"The appeals committee’s policies and procedures guide states its proceedings are “not a new hearing that provides a second chance to argue the case,” and specifies that it can only reverse or modify decisions of the Committee on Infractions involving Level I or Level II violations under certain narrow conditions:

1. A factual finding is clearly contrary to the evidence presented to the panel;
2. The facts found by the panel do not constitute a violation of the NCAA constitution and bylaws;
3. There was a procedural error and but for the error, the panel would not have made the finding or conclusion
4. In prescribing a penalty, the panel abused its discretion."

UL is trying to argue #4, that the panel abused its discretion based on previous cases that were somewhat similar in nature. They are trying to get the monetary value and number of games vacated reduced. It doesn't seem like they have much of a leg to stand on since the reasoning of the COI is pretty straight forward, any players that participated are ineligible. They didn't rule that the FF or NC has to be vacated, it just so happens that those games will be affected by the ineligible players.

I can also say with 100% honesty that if it came out that a staff member had used whores to recruit players to the 2012 UK team that won a title I would want Cal gone that day and would be embarrassed if UK tried to fight it as much as UL has. They have shown absolutely no remorse for what happened, they've tried to play the victim card the entire time. It's sad when the person that showed the most moral fortitude during this whole ordeal was Ramsey

 

[sefus12]

This is from a CJ article about the appeals process and how difficult it is to get rulings overturned:

"The appeals committee’s policies and procedures guide states its proceedings are “not a new hearing that provides a second chance to argue the case,” and specifies that it can only reverse or modify decisions of the Committee on Infractions involving Level I or Level II violations under certain narrow conditions:

1. A factual finding is clearly contrary to the evidence presented to the panel;
2. The facts found by the panel do not constitute a violation of the NCAA constitution and bylaws;
3. There was a procedural error and but for the error, the panel would not have made the finding or conclusion
4. In prescribing a penalty, the panel abused its discretion."

UL is trying to argue #4, that the panel abused its discretion based on previous cases that were somewhat similar in nature. They are trying to get the monetary value and number of games vacated reduced. It doesn't seem like they have much of a leg to stand on since the reasoning of the COI is pretty straight forward, any players that participated are ineligible. They didn't rule that the FF or NC has to be vacated, it just so happens that those games will be affected by the ineligible players.

I can also say with 100% honesty that if it came out that a staff member had used whores to recruit players to the 2012 UK team that won a title I would want Cal gone that day and would be embarrassed if UK tried to fight it as much as UL has. They have shown absolutely no remorse for what happened, they've tried to play the victim card the entire time. It's sad when the person that showed the most moral fortitude during this whole ordeal was Ramsey

Well, at first they denied anything and everything about it. But once they knew they were 100% caught, then they started playing the victim cards. Then they self-imposed the weak punishments, thinking they were getting one over on the NCAA, and once again go back to playing the victim when the NCAA announces the punishments. The funny part is how they have been thumbing their nose at the NCAA the entire time while being the victim.

In all honesty any sane UL fan should say "thanks NCAA" for not giving them the death penalty to go along with the forfeited games.

 

[Jkwo]

The managers and assistants knew about it? I'm not talking about McGree, he obviously did. And this "Coach Mike," whoever that is. Actually that's an answer I want - who is "Coach Mike"? Katina, if she is to believed, said that "Coach Mike" was a black guy. There were no black "Coach Mikes" on the staff.

I don't think Rick knew, but I think he stayed in the dark on purpose. More importantly, though, you have to remember that parties went on after McGee had moved to another state. So the fewest believable staff involved is two. There would still need to be a point guy in Louisville even if McGee was for some strange reason still moonlighting at his old job.

 

[Chase4UK]

Louisville fan here. I thought I'd post my thoughts on this whole thing.

I want to make this very clear - I am not defending what happened. It was repugnant. Whatever penalty the program gets - including losing the banner - I totally understand it. What happened (underage hookers for underage recruits) was just gross and yes that word repugnant.

I am saying that if we're going to fight it, you address the value of the "benefits." The amount per the NCAA was $5800. Divide $5800 across 4 years and that's $121 per month across like 15-20 recruits. The NCAA stated that recruits were turned off by what happened. Recruiting rankings per 247/Scout/Rivals went up after this thing stopped. Louisville leans went elsewhere after their visits. Ergo, no recruiting advantage was obtained by this horrible thing. That's the argument you make when you get in front of the NCAA Appeals Committee - any "benefits" were negligible, there was no recruiting advantage, and you use the NCAA's own words to argue this.

Every player on those 2012 and 2013 teams would have been there regardless of this ugly thing. Those players played those games and won those games. I don't want that taken away from those players and from me as a fan. I understand it if it is, but I don't want it. So, I think the above argument is the argument you make.

I applaud your effort to visit a UK board and share your thoughts with us. Also commendable that you agree that the actions were repugnant.

However, to argue that the benefits didn't affect the outcomes of games is immaterial. That would be akin to giving players cash after arriving in campus, and saying that it's ok since it won't affect the score of any games. That point is totally irrelevant.

The NCAA has already asserted that the value of the benefits is not at issue as well. It's the fact that the entire episode (or should I say episodes) is repugnant. The fact that many players participated, other coaches knew, and Rick should have known about a 4+ years of repugnant behavior screams of lack of institutional control.

Again, I realize that you have stated already that you accept any and all punishments resulting from this, but the fact that you (and other Card fans) aren't screaming for more heads to roll (Pitino and Jurich for starters) is why UK fans (and other fans across the country) will continue to view UofL as a cesspool willing to do anything to win. All football fans know that any decent player kicked off any NCAA team for drugs, sexual assault, fighting, gun possession, etc... has a good chance of ending up in Louisville. This would never stand at UK.

Our fans would never tolerate this. Why do Cardinal fans accept (and even at times defend) this embarrassing behavior?

 

[bigbluehomer]

The managers and assistants knew about it? I'm not talking about McGree, he obviously did. And this "Coach Mike," whoever that is. Actually that's an answer I want - who is "Coach Mike"? Katina, if she is to believed, said that "Coach Mike" was a black guy. There were no black "Coach Mikes" on the staff.

Obviously I can't say 100% they knew, but I think 99.99% is a pretty reasonable assumption. Unless I'm mistaken, a former player (one of the recent transfers?) testified to the NCAA that the when the parties were going to occur was "common knowledge throughout the program", and a recruit testified that at a practice he observed an assistant chewed the team out for a bad practice blaming it on "they (the players) were at the stripper party the night before".

Katina testified that the parties were loud, loud music, and I would assume they were somewhat boisterous, etc. What plausible scenario is there that everyone "didn't know". What plausible scenario is there that Rick didn't know? I mean seriously? LOL!

 

[Bluest Member]

The managers and assistants knew about it? I'm not talking about McGree, he obviously did. And this "Coach Mike," whoever that is. Actually that's an answer I want - who is "Coach Mike"? Katina, if she is to believed, said that "Coach Mike" was a black guy. There were no black "Coach Mikes" on the staff.

Well it's pretty obvious someone else besides Andre McGee knew about it,it's a proven fact that a party was set up after McGee had moved to UMKC

 

[wildcatwelder]

There is NO DOUBT in my mind whatsoever that Rick not only knew about the whole thing, but most likely set it up.
Who provided the $$$$? rick....of course, no question.

UL IS a cesspool, and SHOULD have gotten the death penalty, along with UNCHEAT.

 

[KeepingItReal74]

Obviously I can't say 100% they knew, but I think 99.99% is a pretty reasonable assumption. Unless I'm mistaken, a former player (one of the recent transfers?) testified to the NCAA that the when the parties were going to occur was "common knowledge throughout the program", and a recruit testified that at a practice he observed an assistant chewed the team out for a bad practice blaming it on "they (the players) were at the stripper party the night before".

Katina testified that the parties were loud, loud music, and I would assume they were somewhat boisterous, etc. What plausible scenario is there that everyone "didn't know". What plausible scenario is there that Rick didn't know? I mean seriously? LOL!

Rick was at Porcinis cleaning tables and locking up as he does every night.

 

[Bluest Member]

Rick was at Porcinis cleaning tables and locking up as he does every night.

I'm not sure I'd call wiping tables with some ho's ass cleaning them

 

[KeepingItReal74]

I'm not sure I'd call wiping tables with some ho's ass cleaning them

15 seconds to dirty them up. Rest of night to clean them.

 

[Cat78Scot]

Rick was at Porcinis cleaning tables and locking up as he does every night.

I know you're making a joking but the Pimp would never do 'lowly' work like that much less talk to the people that did!

I know a local bartender, a very attractive girl, that is a rabid card fan. She told me there is no way he knew, that he's told her personally that he had no idea. I have tried to reason with her but now just shake my head when we discuss it. You know that piece of garbage wouldn't have even acknowledged her if she wasn't hot!

 

[TruBluCatFan]

Pretty sure the poster was being sarcastic. I still don't think they'll have to vacate the title. I know, I'm a troll for this opinion.

Nah, just a pessimist dumbass.

 

[KeepingItReal74]

I know you're making a joking but the Pimp would never do 'lowly' work like that much less talk to the people that did!

I know a local bartender, a very attractive girl, that is a rabid card fan. She told me there is no way he knew, that he's told her personally that he had no idea. I have tried to reason with her but now just shake my head when we discuss it. You know that piece of garbage wouldn't have even acknowledged her if she wasn't hot!

He knew. I know this to be fact. As an college football player, I know some of the athletes and have connections. That's why I always say the infractions such as these under the guidance of adults should hit them harder than the players. Rick and Tom will still enjoy those fat paycheck days. It's crazy.