Adolph Rupp is the reason
- Thread starter Vhskidmore
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Rupp is the reason JC wanted to be at UK and there are others standing in line praying to do the same! He's said on numerous occasions he is just borrowing the seat!
Slow must be your roll. Because it was a simple question that you, had to “snark” back.
absolute truth
without what coach rupp built these other high profiled coaches would have never been here
Rupp is the father of UK basketball, lumping all the other coaches and giving them as much credit as Rupp is a smear. None of those guys you mentioned could not/ would not have done what Rupp did. So, in a way, it was a smear
Cal specifically, there it is. Putting Cal over all the other Coaches. IMO, Pitino did more for UK basketball than Cal has. But as I said, all the others including Cal would not have been here if not for the foundation Rupp laid down. I know you think Cal is the best thing since sliced bread, but he is not. There is always another Hall, Pitino, Tubby, or Cal that will take over and we will be just fine. Hope we do not get another BCG tho.
Your question wasn't simple, it was filled with sarcasm and you know it. Done with replying to you. Unless you want to talk about UK basketball or basketball in general. Then I would gladly welcome your thoughts. Let's see if we can't just get along.
Yeah, Rupp is the Father of UK Basketball....agreed.
You made two assumptions and both have to do with comprehension issues.
1. You are assuming I am "smearing" Rupp by giving as much credit to our other coaches over the past 6 decades that kept our program relevant. That is wrong. Rupp is the Father of our program and won 4 titles in a decade, made us relevant and built the beginnings of our history. Pitino and Cal saved our program from dumpster fires and brought us back to relevance and National spotlight....Cal's tenure isn't done btw...so let's see how it shakes out before you write everything in stone.
2. I said Pitino AND Cal specifically. AND means both, those two specifically. If I wanted to single out Cal I wouldn't have mentioned Pitino.
I'm glad you think so highly of our current coach. You know it is a hell of a lot easier to win titles now in 2020 than it was 70 years ago, right? Keep making your assumptions, they fit you well...
Thanks. I will do that. You keep worshiping at the Calipari trough, it fits you well. I lost a ton of confidence in Cal in 2015, and he has done nothing to get that back, and now his latest political stunt has me really soured on him. We will just agree to disagree. I do appreciate you debating without insults.
I am not sure what the comment is about "worshiping" Cal. The guy isn't perfect but he has done a tremendous job here. We should probably have another title maybe two. At the end of the day if he wins another prior to hanging it up I am sure we will all be pleased. Rupp was here 42 years and won 4 in a decade. If Cal wins 2 in 20 years we should all be thrilled....it is a completely different era of basketball.
Dang Vern..... (How goes it?)
What did Crocodile Dundee say; "We'd be mates"...
Too many seem ready to fight on this site. They need to chill....
Kind of like Notre Dame/Army/Navy/Nebraska football with Tejas headed that way. Or Cincinnati basketball for that matter.
Rupp was a great coach but he wasn’t a god. A lot of hyperbole in this thread. Kentucky announced sports were open to black people in 1963. Kentucky basketball didn’t have it’s first black player until 1970. Here’s more historical context:
Indiana admitted their first black player in 1947. Prior to 1947, blacks largely couldn’t play for major colleges, with some exceptions
In 1955, a SF Dons team with 3 black starters won the National Championship.
Vanderbilt admitted the SEC’s first black player in 1967.
Louisville admitted their first black player in 1962.
The NBA, by comparison, integrated in 1950.
Kentucky didn’t integrate until 1970, which was 2nd in SEC (with one other school) and about 23 years after black players began integrating into major programs.
Sources
en.m.wikipedia.org
Indiana admitted their first black player in 1947. Prior to 1947, blacks largely couldn’t play for major colleges, with some exceptions
In 1955, a SF Dons team with 3 black starters won the National Championship.
Vanderbilt admitted the SEC’s first black player in 1967.
Louisville admitted their first black player in 1962.
The NBA, by comparison, integrated in 1950.
Kentucky didn’t integrate until 1970, which was 2nd in SEC (with one other school) and about 23 years after black players began integrating into major programs.
Sources
Black participation in college basketball - Wikipedia
When I started thread all I wanted to say was that the winning tradition Rupp started in the basketball program is the reason that great basketball coaches like Calapari want to coach here. The success Rupp had here is unparalleled but the winning tradition he started and maintained for 42 is still part of the basketball program today. NowI don't know why you are injecting race into this thread. The race of the players is not relevant. That is a another conversation altogether.Rupp was a great coach but he wasn’t a god. A lot of hyperbole in this thread. Kentucky announced sports were open to black people in 1963. Kentucky basketball didn’t have it’s first black player until 1970. Here’s more historical context:
Indiana admitted their first black player in 1947. Prior to 1947, blacks largely couldn’t play for major colleges, with some exceptions
In 1955, a SF Dons team with 3 black starters won the National Championship.
Vanderbilt admitted the SEC’s first black player in 1967.
Louisville admitted their first black player in 1962.
The NBA, by comparison, integrated in 1950.
Kentucky didn’t integrate until 1970, which was 2nd in SEC (with one other school) and about 23 years after black players began integrating into major programs.
Sources
Black participation in college basketball - Wikipedia
Because some people can’t help themselves. They think a cotton ball is a symbol of racism.
As far as I know, nobody is suggesting that any basketball coach is a god. What would be the purpose?Rupp was a great coach but he wasn’t a god. A lot of hyperbole in this thread. Kentucky announced sports were open to black people in 1963. Kentucky basketball didn’t have it’s first black player until 1970. Here’s more historical context:
Indiana admitted their first black player in 1947. Prior to 1947, blacks largely couldn’t play for major colleges, with some exceptions
In 1955, a SF Dons team with 3 black starters won the National Championship.
Vanderbilt admitted the SEC’s first black player in 1967.
Louisville admitted their first black player in 1962.
The NBA, by comparison, integrated in 1950.
Kentucky didn’t integrate until 1970, which was 2nd in SEC (with one other school) and about 23 years after black players began integrating into major programs.
Sources
Black participation in college basketball - Wikipedia
As I discussed earlier, everyone is a product of his or her generation. You are no exception. Neither am I. Neither was Adolph Rupp. We should be very careful when mixing sports and politics, especially when done for the implicit or explicit purpose of minimizing great accomplishments in hindsight. Hindsight is always 20-20. But if you arbitrarily subject anyone to your apparent standard of measuring up to social norms in vogue 50 years after the fact, very few people can satisfy that expectation.
Everyone is flawed. No one is perfect. Working under the conditions presented to him at the time, Rupp was the most successful college basketball coach of his generation. This is a great achievement for the University of KY and the state of KY unless we work to tear it down and poison it with negative innuendo after the fact. Let's just leave Rupp's factual legacy intact and allow everyone to view it for themselves.
It’s not enough to say Rupp was merely a reflection of his time. He was reflective of his time and place, more accurately. The rest of the country had largely already integrated before Kentucky in 1970.
In 1947, John Wooden’s Indiana State Sycamore team refused to play in the NAIB Tournament due to a policy against African Americans. That rule was lifted in 1948 and the Sycamores won the NAIB title that year.
In 1947, John Wooden’s Indiana State Sycamore team refused to play in the NAIB Tournament due to a policy against African Americans. That rule was lifted in 1948 and the Sycamores won the NAIB title that year.
So Rupp was a racist in your opinion? Therefore his name should not be on an arena? Strip away the four titles he won? Also take away all the wins and losses? What exactly do you want done? I went to segregated schools till 1965. Am I a racist as well?
I’ll let you people argue about names. I’m sharing my research. Let’s assume it’s all true, that Adolph Rupp was a reflection of his time and place... that constraints of local and regional racism made it difficult to add black players....
The alternative is actually far more damning than a single coach being racist.... and it’s that an entire region was nearly a half century behind desegregation and actively tried to prevent it.
States such as Alabama even had laws preventing interracial sports.
Kentucky was not innocent in that.
That’s the lesson that should be taught and learned.
You have said the 4 banners need to come down.
Actually, I never said that. Please show the full post if that’s what you’re going to claim. What I did say is that Kentucky has more titles than Kansas if you were to take away four banners (and that was really more of a dig on Kansas). But regardless, you’re just trying to take away from the conversation.
Give em time cuz they’ll probably get around to it. They’ll wanna rename it to Lower Eastern Conference or similar 🤪
You said you wanted to to see it to upset people....danced around it. Would have been very to say they should stay up. Like now you are parsing words instead of just saying it. You contradict yourself a lot and your contempt of Kentuckians is well documented.
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Yeah, man, I’m not playing the personal attack game. That’s why we can’t have open conversations about this stuff. Maybe that’s your goal?
You keep saying stuff like that and calling people hicks and rednecks 5 minutes later. Should the banners come down?
No I don’t think the banners should come down. lol. But again, you are worried about banners and the name of an arena. The question I’m asking is why Kentucky integrated 23 years after IU, 7 years after Louisville and 3 years after Vandy. And I’m not really talking to people like you who just want to politicize, but people like @JPScott who have credibility on the topic and historical understanding of the bigger picture. Last time I’ll respond to you ITT unless you can show you actually want to discuss.
Tell'um brother, your spot on. Coach Rupp did for college basket what Magic, Bird and Jordan did for the NBA but doesn't get credit.
Oh you want to politicize, don't lie to yourself. Otherwise what is the point of debating the why of a 50 year old decision.
Since I've been summoned I guess I will answer this question.
I assume you have read my webpage on Rupp, which not only talks about Rupp himself but is a good reference for integration of college basketball in the South and to a lesser extent the overall nation.
Link to Rupp page
if you read the page you would know that UK formally announced their intention to integrate its athletic programs in late spring 1963 (the school itself was already integrated previously after the 1954 Brown vs. Board of Education ruling which overturned the Kentucky state Day Law). Rupp's first black recruit was Wes Unseld in Spring of 1964. (Rupp wasn't able to recruit for the 1963 class because he had already used all his scholarships.)
Louisville didn't sign any black players until 1962 with Wade Houston. George Unseld (Wes' older brother who played for Kansas) considered Louisville and Kentucky to be 'two peas in a pod' at the time in terms of not recruiting him. But a major difference between Louisville and Kentucky at the time was Louisville was affiliated with the Missouri Valley Conference while UK was in the Southeastern. Because of this, Louisville did not have to travel to the Deep South to play games, during a time which was prior to the passing of the Civil Rights Act in 1964 which in theory guaranteed accomodations in restaurants and hotels etc. When you look at Louisville's schedule during the Wes Unseld/ Butch Beard years the only time the team ever travelled to the South was to play North Texas State (Denton, TX which is just north of Dallas) which was the southernmost member of the MVC (and only MVC school not in the Midwest).
Kentucky had already been recruiting black players for two years before Vanderbilt recruited and signed their first black players (Nashville native Perry Wallace and Godfrey Dillard from Detroit) in 1966. Dillard was dropped from the team before he could play varsity because he started to speak out about racial injustice. Wallace (who Rupp also recruited) stayed on but he never played varsity with a black teammate at Vanderbilt as Vandy Coach Roy Skinner was unsuccesful at recruiting any other black players to join him during those three remaining years. Lamented Skinner about the situation: "the ones that qualify (academically) aren't interested in our conference."
As far as Indiana, it's true that Indiana had black players well before any school in the South did. And Big Ten and other teams in the North followed suit in the 1950's. But again, they didn't have to worry about travelling to the South if they didn't want to. They didn't have to worry nearly as much about accomodations, even though there was indeed some segregation in the North as well during the 30's and 40's etc.
Also, keep in mind that even though many Northern schools were integrated in the 1950's and 1960's, it was very limited. Again either because of academics or because of self-appointed quotas, they generally did not sign more than one black player per class, so there were generally never more than a handful of black players (if that) on any one team. Bill Garrett has a book "Getting Open" on his journey being the first black player for IU and it wasn't a walk in the park.
FWIW, I always find it fascinating that when I first started following this topic in the late 80's/early 90's, that the focus always seemed to be on the racism that was present in the 1960's at Southern schools. So looking back 20 or 30 years in the past was fair game, but digging back 40 or 50 years to look at the Northern schools and what issues they may have had in terms of integrating their schools and sports teams was almost verboten. Now, here we are today still looking back 50+ years at what Southern schools and coaches could have or should have done (actually we're not, we still haven't expanded much beyond Adolph Rupp), but still it's rarely if ever commented on the fact that virtually every single institution (both southern and northern schools alike) has gone through similar issues in terms of their conversion from segregated (even if not legally) to integrated schools at some point in their history.
So to answer your question, while I understand that Rupp wasn't technically successful at integrating his team until signing Tom Payne in 1969, the fact is he was actively recruiting black players since 1964, which is not that far behind Louisville (which had a definite advantage geographically) and was ahead of Vanderbilt and every other SEC school. Vandy kind of got lucky with the fact Perry Wallace grew up close by, otherwise they likely wouldn't even be mentioned as being a leader in integration of the SEC.
Indiana is a different situation. If Rupp had coached a Big Ten team in the 1950s, I have absolutely no doubt he would have recruited and coached black players during that era, just like he did in the 1920's as a high school coach in Illinois.
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JP...as a side note, "certain " folks tend to over this...
https://images.app.goo.gl/Hvoqf6yP2aPMxxSp9...one of my buddies brought a young black youth minister from Fla(gator) to a game and when l walked him around the stadium and showed him the monument he had no idea that UK integrated th SEC in FB.
Your link didn't work. You probably need to edit your post to get it working.
As far as football, while it's true UK was the first SEC member to integrate their football team, it was nearly a disaster, due to the untimely death of Greg Page which prompted Nat Northington leaving the program as well. Thankfully at the time this happened Wilbur Hackett and Houston Hogg were already freshmen and to their credit they decided to stick it out. Some of the very same rumor mongers who were trying to denigrate UK and Rupp and trying to prevent UK from signing black players in basketball were also doing the same in football, using the Page tragedy against UK. If Hackett and Hogg had left at that time, the program would have been back at square one.
I will say that I think what UK did a few years ago by building the statue to the four black pioneers at UK was a positive (and long overdue) gesture, not only as a way to honor their sacrifices and courage, but to your point, to educate UK fans (and anyone else) that UK was indeed a leader in pushing for integration at the time.
Same can be said for basketball. Again, although they weren't successful early on, there's no doubt that UK was at the forefront of trying to integrate the SEC in the early to mid-1960s. That's one thing Rupp's critics don't want to acknowledge, because it completely undercuts their entire theory, but it's true.
I wish that UK had been more proactive earlier on in terms of establishing the facts that they indeed were working to integrate all of their athletic teams, while many in the SEC were literally doing nothing. Doesn't mean UK was perfect, or that they couldn't have done better, but they were at least trying. Instead UK has largely remained silent over the past few decades and allowed rival fans and Rupp's critics in the media have a field day establishing what is largely a false narrative.
I think the reason for that is that the criticism of segregation from the north and other regions was much bigger than just basketball but all of the segregation in the south. Kentucky’s lack of segregation can at least be partially blamed on its affiliation with the SEC, and at the end of the day, it goes with out saying that the general “south” has little excuse for waiting so long to desegregate.
What Kentucky does bear responsibility for is going with the flow on the issue. I think ideally Kentucky would’ve forced the issue, threatened to leave SEC or possibly even boycott until changes were made. That to me is something we could be proud of in 2020 and something that would be in line with an otherwise traditionally excellent program.
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