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Addressing the "8 titles in 100 years fallacy" some of you keep using.

Son_Of_Saul

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Dec 7, 2007
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They say it every year after we flame out of the NCAA Tournament.

"We only have won 8 titles in 100 years."

This is fallacy, and it's an audacious fallacy at that because it is not correct historically.

The NCAA tournament began in 1939. Between 1939 and 1998, UK won 7 national titles. That's 7 titles in 59 years, or one every 8.4 years. Between 1948 and 1998, UK's title to year ration was one title for every 7.1 years. If you remove the probation/forfeit years, it's actually one title every 6.7 years.

Between 1939 and 2012, UK won 8 titles, or one title every 9.1 years (8.6 years if you remove probation years or the 1954 season).

So even at our worst, we're winning a national title every 9.1 years before 2013 ( or 8.8 years if you remove the probation/forfeited seasons).

We're coming up on that actual historical average right now, in fact. One title for every 9.1 years, and it's been ten years since our last title. Based on historical precedent, it's time for a title.

Factor in the reality that UK was on probation for two years during the Pitino Era, and refused to participate in the 1954 NCAA Tournament - a season where they were undefeated. Remove those three years from factoring into the title ratio, and between 1939 and 2012, UK averaged a title once every 8.8 years.

Historically, UK is averaging:

1. An Elite Eight every 2.1 years (or an Elite Eight every other year). Historically, finishing with an Elite Eight is expected every other year.

2. A Final Four every 4.7 years.
3. A National Title Game appearance every 6.6 years.

4. A National Title every 9.9 years (1939-2021 *counting the Covid year, the two probation years, and the forfeited tournament year).

***Also, some of our fans are quick to point out the "gaps" between titles, but they rarely point out what resulted from those gaps, which was this: multiple head coaching changes happened *because* of the gaps.

The gap between 1978 and 1996 saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).

The gap between 1998 and 2012 also saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).


These coaching changes came because the gaps were not acceptable by Kentucky's historical standards and norms.

All this is to say, we need to get our actual history correct when we're making arguments. The "8 titles in 100 years" is a weak fallacy.

Our historical standard of excellence is better than that.
 
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They say it every year after we flame out of the NCAA Tournament.

"We only have won 8 titles in 100 years."

This is fallacy, and it's an audacious fallacy at that because it is not correct historically.

The NCAA tournament began in 1939. Between 1939 and 1998, UK won 7 national titles. That's 7 titles in 59 years, or one every 8.4 years. Between 1948 and 1998, UK's title to year ration was one title for every 7.1 years. If you remove the probation/forfeit years, it's actually one title every 6.7 years.

Between 1939 and 2012, UK won 8 titles, or one title every 9.1 years (8.6 years if you remove probation years or the 1954 season).

So even at our worst, we're winning a national title every 9.1 years before 2013 ( or 8.8 years if you remove the probation/forfeited seasons) and one title

We're coming up on that actual historical average right now, in fact. One title for every 9.1 years, and it's been ten years since our last title. Based on historical precedent, it's time for a title.

Factor in the reality that UK was on probation for two years during the Pitino Era, and refused to participate in the 1954 NCAA Tournament - a season where they were undefeated. Remove those three years from factoring into the title ratio, and between 1939 and 2012, UK averaged a title once every 8.8 years.

Historically, UK is averaging:

1. An Elite Eight every 2.1 years (or an Elite Eight every other year). Historically, finishing with an Elite Eight is expected every other year.

2. A Final Four every 4.7 years.
3. A National Title Game appearance every 6.6 years.

4. A National Title every 9.9 years.

***Also, some of our fans are quick to point out the "gaps" between titles, but they rarely point out what resulted from those gaps, which was this: multiple head coaching changes happened *because* of the gaps.

The gap between 1978 and 1996 saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).

The gap between 1998 and 2012 also saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).


These coaching changes came because the gaps were not acceptable by Kentucky's historical standards and norms.

All this is to say, we need to get our actual history correct when we're making arguments. The "8 titles in 100 years" is a weak fallacy.

Our historical standard of excellence is better than that.
Looks like we’re over do.
 
We have won 8 in 80 plus years and 4 the last 64 years.

Like ucla, we are getting further and further away from our glory year runs.
 
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10 loss tubby had that 1st title, good for him. Never made it back to ff, though u can argue he got screwed big time against msu, and uab. Sutton never sniffed, bcg, lol. Uk had some a serious drought from 98 til 2011 for a ff, now we are another drought.
 
10 loss tubby had that 1st title, good for him. Never made it back to ff, though u can argue he got screwed big time against msu, and uab. Sutton never sniffed, bcg, lol. Uk had some a serious drought from 98 til 2011 for a ff, now we are another drought.
Sad part is Sutton, Tubby , and BCG combined never had the talent that Calipari has wasted here over the years!
 
They say it every year after we flame out of the NCAA Tournament.

"We only have won 8 titles in 100 years."

This is fallacy, and it's an audacious fallacy at that because it is not correct historically.

The NCAA tournament began in 1939. Between 1939 and 1998, UK won 7 national titles. That's 7 titles in 59 years, or one every 8.4 years. Between 1948 and 1998, UK's title to year ration was one title for every 7.1 years. If you remove the probation/forfeit years, it's actually one title every 6.7 years.

Between 1939 and 2012, UK won 8 titles, or one title every 9.1 years (8.6 years if you remove probation years or the 1954 season).

So even at our worst, we're winning a national title every 9.1 years before 2013 ( or 8.8 years if you remove the probation/forfeited seasons).

We're coming up on that actual historical average right now, in fact. One title for every 9.1 years, and it's been ten years since our last title. Based on historical precedent, it's time for a title.

Factor in the reality that UK was on probation for two years during the Pitino Era, and refused to participate in the 1954 NCAA Tournament - a season where they were undefeated. Remove those three years from factoring into the title ratio, and between 1939 and 2012, UK averaged a title once every 8.8 years.

Historically, UK is averaging:

1. An Elite Eight every 2.1 years (or an Elite Eight every other year). Historically, finishing with an Elite Eight is expected every other year.

2. A Final Four every 4.7 years.
3. A National Title Game appearance every 6.6 years.

4. A National Title every 9.9 years (1939-2021 *counting the Covid year, the two probation years, and the forfeited tournament year).

***Also, some of our fans are quick to point out the "gaps" between titles, but they rarely point out what resulted from those gaps, which was this: multiple head coaching changes happened *because* of the gaps.

The gap between 1978 and 1996 saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).

The gap between 1998 and 2012 also saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).


These coaching changes came because the gaps were not acceptable by Kentucky's historical standards and norms.

All this is to say, we need to get our actual history correct when we're making arguments. The "8 titles in 100 years" is a weak fallacy.

Our historical standard of excellence is better than that.
Pre integration statistics are meaningless. How many teams were actually competitive back then?

Totally different environment now.
 
They say it every year after we flame out of the NCAA Tournament.

"We only have won 8 titles in 100 years."

This is fallacy, and it's an audacious fallacy at that because it is not correct historically.

The NCAA tournament began in 1939. Between 1939 and 1998, UK won 7 national titles. That's 7 titles in 59 years, or one every 8.4 years. Between 1948 and 1998, UK's title to year ration was one title for every 7.1 years. If you remove the probation/forfeit years, it's actually one title every 6.7 years.

Between 1939 and 2012, UK won 8 titles, or one title every 9.1 years (8.6 years if you remove probation years or the 1954 season).

So even at our worst, we're winning a national title every 9.1 years before 2013 ( or 8.8 years if you remove the probation/forfeited seasons).

We're coming up on that actual historical average right now, in fact. One title for every 9.1 years, and it's been ten years since our last title. Based on historical precedent, it's time for a title.

Factor in the reality that UK was on probation for two years during the Pitino Era, and refused to participate in the 1954 NCAA Tournament - a season where they were undefeated. Remove those three years from factoring into the title ratio, and between 1939 and 2012, UK averaged a title once every 8.8 years.

Historically, UK is averaging:

1. An Elite Eight every 2.1 years (or an Elite Eight every other year). Historically, finishing with an Elite Eight is expected every other year.

2. A Final Four every 4.7 years.
3. A National Title Game appearance every 6.6 years.

4. A National Title every 9.9 years (1939-2021 *counting the Covid year, the two probation years, and the forfeited tournament year).

***Also, some of our fans are quick to point out the "gaps" between titles, but they rarely point out what resulted from those gaps, which was this: multiple head coaching changes happened *because* of the gaps.

The gap between 1978 and 1996 saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).

The gap between 1998 and 2012 also saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).


These coaching changes came because the gaps were not acceptable by Kentucky's historical standards and norms.

All this is to say, we need to get our actual history correct when we're making arguments. The "8 titles in 100 years" is a weak fallacy.

Our historical standard of excellence is better than that.
Slow clap…👏🏼
 
Pre integration statistics are meaningless. How many teams were actually competitive back then?

Totally different environment now.
If only sports could be as nihilistically abstract as you're suggesting.

The reality is that every school had the same level of competitive opportunity that Kentucky had back then. Kentucky managed to win championships during that time while many others did not.

That's reality. You moving the goal post to some type of arbitrary distinction is fine for your own personal use, but real records are kept for a real reason because they're based on actual competitive value and the standards of competition set at the time.

Kentucky succeeded within that actual, objective framework.
 
I'm curious what Kentucky's stats on #1 seeds are, as well. Does anyone have any stats on that, such as how often Kentucky is #1 or how long they go between being #1? TIA.
 
Pre integration statistics are meaningless. How many teams were actually competitive back then?

Totally different environment now.

Yeah thats the elephant in the room that no one on here wants to discuss. We won 4 in 10 years and then just 4 the last 63. Why the drop off?

The average us gonna get bigger and bigger the farther we get away from 48 to 58 stretch. Regardless of coach. I don't think cal is winning another one though.
 
Yeah thats the elephant in the room that no one on here wants to discuss. We won 4 in 10 years and then just 4 the last 63. Why the drop off?

The average us gonna get bigger and bigger the farther we get away from 48 to 58 stretch. Regardless of coach. I don't think cal is winning another one though.
We went to 3 straight Title games from 96-98, then to 4 Final Fours in 5 years from 11-15.

Teams get hot for stretches then disappear for stretches.
 
I brought this up yesterday. I believe this is longest streak we have ever had without a 1 seed in the tournament era.
I think we have only had 3 #1 seeds while Cal’s been here that’s crazy if you think about it. I do believe you’re correct 7 years is the longest we have went without a 1 seed.
 
Yeah thats the elephant in the room that no one on here wants to discuss. We won 4 in 10 years and then just 4 the last 63. Why the drop off?

The average us gonna get bigger and bigger the farther we get away from 48 to 58 stretch. Regardless of coach. I don't think cal is winning another one though.
We also won two titles in three years, went to three straight NCAA title games, and 4 Final Fours in a 6 years span after integration.

The historical standard is still there, and I'm not sure I would call it an elephant in the room when the 1993-1998 run and 2011-2015 are two of the three greatest runs in program history, and both happened after integration.

That doesn't really satisfy the appeal to your argument.
 
Let’s talk about the fallacy that you compare what happened pre-2000 to 2022 to develop a metric for championships. The game is totally different. We will get another championship soon. But you just cannot be dominant in today’s basketball.
 
but, but--more players are getting to the nba than ever before---and that IS what matters to the present coach--according to HIM.

rr
 
Let’s talk about the fallacy that you compare what happened pre-2000 to 2022 to develop a metric for championships. The game is totally different. We will get another championship soon. But you just cannot be dominant in today’s basketball.
Bit of a delta between “being dominant” and being in the middle of our longest drought ever without a 1 seed, no?
 
UK coaches’ “gaps“ between Final 4s:
Rupp 6 NCAAT between 1951 and 1958, 7 from 1959-65, last 6 years 1967-72

Hall longest was 5 years 1979-1983

Sutton 4 years

Pitino 2 years 1994-1995

Tubby last 9 years 1999-2007

BCG 2 years

Cal 5 years 2016 to 2021 with no 2020 NCAAT
 
Let’s talk about the fallacy that you compare what happened pre-2000 to 2022 to develop a metric for championships. The game is totally different. We will get another championship soon. But you just cannot be dominant in today’s basketball.
We’re not getting another championship while Cal is the UK coach. The UK job is a 10 year job he’s already maxed out his shelf life! His best days were 2009-2015 and have been slowly declining since!
 
UK coaches’ “gaps“ between Final 4s:
Rupp 6 NCAAT between 1951 and 1958, 7 from 1959-65, last 6 years 1967-72

Hall longest was 5 years 1979-1983

Sutton 4 years

Pitino 2 years 1994-1995

Tubby last 9 years 1999-2007

BCG 2 years

Cal 5 years 2016 to 2021 with no 2020 NCAAT
Here’s to ending that this year. The no 1 seeds drought won’t sting as bad if we can get to a final four.
 
We also won two titles in three years, went to three straight NCAA title games, and 4 Final Fours in a 6 years span after integration.

The historical standard is still there, and I'm not sure I would call it an elephant in the room when the 1993-1998 run and 2011-2015 are two of the three greatest runs in program history, and both happened after integration.

That doesn't really satisfy the appeal to your argument.

No I have brought those runs up and believe they make up 75% of titles and 75% of final fours from 59 onward. It just shows me we are gonna have some great runs but the majority if seasons won't be final fours and titles.

I just expect the average to go down no matter the coach in the coming decades.
 
They say it every year after we flame out of the NCAA Tournament.

"We only have won 8 titles in 100 years."

This is fallacy, and it's an audacious fallacy at that because it is not correct historically.

The NCAA tournament began in 1939. Between 1939 and 1998, UK won 7 national titles. That's 7 titles in 59 years, or one every 8.4 years. Between 1948 and 1998, UK's title to year ration was one title for every 7.1 years. If you remove the probation/forfeit years, it's actually one title every 6.7 years.

Between 1939 and 2012, UK won 8 titles, or one title every 9.1 years (8.6 years if you remove probation years or the 1954 season).

So even at our worst, we're winning a national title every 9.1 years before 2013 ( or 8.8 years if you remove the probation/forfeited seasons).

We're coming up on that actual historical average right now, in fact. One title for every 9.1 years, and it's been ten years since our last title. Based on historical precedent, it's time for a title.

Factor in the reality that UK was on probation for two years during the Pitino Era, and refused to participate in the 1954 NCAA Tournament - a season where they were undefeated. Remove those three years from factoring into the title ratio, and between 1939 and 2012, UK averaged a title once every 8.8 years.

Historically, UK is averaging:

1. An Elite Eight every 2.1 years (or an Elite Eight every other year). Historically, finishing with an Elite Eight is expected every other year.

2. A Final Four every 4.7 years.
3. A National Title Game appearance every 6.6 years.

4. A National Title every 9.9 years (1939-2021 *counting the Covid year, the two probation years, and the forfeited tournament year).

***Also, some of our fans are quick to point out the "gaps" between titles, but they rarely point out what resulted from those gaps, which was this: multiple head coaching changes happened *because* of the gaps.

The gap between 1978 and 1996 saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).

The gap between 1998 and 2012 also saw *three* different head coaches (one was fired and one was pressured out).


These coaching changes came because the gaps were not acceptable by Kentucky's historical standards and norms.

All this is to say, we need to get our actual history correct when we're making arguments. The "8 titles in 100 years" is a weak fallacy.

Our historical standard of excellence is better than that.

As long as you realize 4 of the 8 championships were from 1948-1958.

Averages can kind of skew perception & make it sound like something crazy is going on.

Championships:
-1948
-1949
-1951
-1958
-1978
-1996
-1998
-2012

Big gaps:
1958-78
1978-1996
1998-2012

The only championships in less than 10 years apart was the 1948-58 period & 1996, 98. Everything else is at least 16 years apart.
 
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Title aside, IF this becomes the seventh straight year without even a trip to the Final Four, Cal will feel the heat.
Joe B Hall had 6 years(78-84) between Final 4's and was basically run out of the job. Cal won't be because of the RIDICULOUS 10 year contract mitch gave him that would cost $60 million to get rid of him.

So like I've stated numerous times in other threads the last 2 years, either Cal digs in on his stubbornness and just continues to draw a big check or his ego will kick in and he'll get that edge he had back and become the innovator he was when we hired him. He needs to adjust his system to today's game.
 
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Joe B Hall had 6 years(78-84) between Final 4's and was basically run out of the job. Cal won't be because of the RIDICULOUS 10 year contract mitch gave him that would cost $60 million to get rid of him.

So like I've stated numerous times in other threads the last 2 years, either Cal digs in on his stubbornness and just continues to draw a big check or his ego will kick in and he'll get that edge he had when we first hired him back and become the innovator he was when we hired him. He needs to adjust his system to today's game.
Hall won the title in 1978. The gap was 5 years
 
As long as you realize 4 of the 8 championships were from 1948-1958.

Averages can kind of skew perception & make it sound like something crazy is going on.

Championships:
-1948
-1949
-1951
-1958
-1978
-1996
-1998
-2012

Big gaps:
1958-78
1978-1996
1998-2012

The only championships in less than 10 years apart was the 1948-58 period & 1996, 98. Everything else is at least 17 years apart.
I addressed the gaps in my initial post.

And what happened as a result of many of those gaps?

Coaching changes happened.

The gaps were not acceptable, and the longest ones under the same coach (Rupp) was allowed because of his previous success.



 
I addressed the gaps in my initial post.

And what happened as a result of many of those gaps?

Coaching changes happened.

The gaps were not acceptable, and the longest ones under the same coach (Rupp) was allowed because of his previous success.




Yeah uk coaches suck at winning multiple titles post Rupp and have all choked the big one when given the chance.

I say once the next guy is here and wins a title we need to start looking for the next guy.
 
Would we have won in 2012 if we had a different coach? You're using math to fit your bias which is the same thing you're trying to argue against. And we're only talking about a few years. 10 versus 12.

I've computed it as every 10 years as well but not in the same way as you. Either way UK is due and I really think multiple F4s are in the near future.

This season, at worst, will be the calm before the storm. UK will be a monster should Oscar return next year.

At best, we win number 9. This team is the best in the country when firing on all cylinders. The only downside is this is Cal's first great team not hitting their peak in March. Hopefully they get back to how they were playing in late Dec through early Feb and if they do then other teams need to pack their bags because it's over.
 
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Yeah uk coaches suck at winning multiple titles post Rupp and have all choked the big one when given the chance.

I say once the next guy is here and wins a title we need to start looking for the next guy.
Who's suggesting that?

I'm suggesting that the next two to three years represents a window that, based on historical precedent, demonstrates that it's time for a national title.
 
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Would we have won in 2012 if we had a different coach? You're using math to fit your bias which is the same thing you're trying to argue against. And we're only talking about a few years. 10 versus 12.

I've computed it as every 10 years as well but not in the same way as you. Either way UK is due and I really think multiple F4s are in the near future.

This season, at worst, will be the calm before the storm. UK will be a monster should Oscar return next year.

At best, we win number 9. This team is the best in the country when firing on all cylinders. The only downside is this is Cal's first great team not hitting their peak in March. Hopefully they get back to how they were playing in late Dec through early Feb and if they do then other teams need to pack their bags because it's over.
My bias?

What is that exactly? I actually want to keep Calipari.
 
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Yeah uk coaches suck at winning multiple titles post Rupp and have all choked the big one when given the chance.

I say once the next guy is here and wins a title we need to start looking for the next guy.
Cal was the one that came into this job and declared that UK was going to catch UCLA in NCAA Titles. UK is paying him a TON of money, I'm still waiting on those other 3 championships.


The clock is ticking.
 
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