A subtle shift

[Caveman Catfan]

In the past, guys like Paschal, Boogie, Kash and Davis would be thrown right into the mix as true freshmen with fans expecting their potential to be seen on day one. While we still see that at some positions (Q at NG), these players who are serious about their future and their craft and are working hard, have been brought about at a different pace. Some fans have lamented that this must mean that the recruits were not as good as anticipated. Paschal was used situationally. Kash played special teams. Boogie got reps when starters were injured. Davis had a surprising spring and then actually RSed. Robinson waits his turn.

We are not accustomed to this process. We have such low expectations of our older players that we think guys like Square and Oates should just be difference makers from day one. But, older players with NFL aspirations are holding spots in front of these guys. Or, a player with a ton of experience and leadership ability like Love let Kash learn. Allen, Jones, Edwards and others with real SEC experience are letting the young talent digest the process, mature, and get serious for their time. Nothing is given because of a star count.

We see Kash who is evidently blossoming this spring at MLB. Players rave about Paschal’s work ethic and motor. Boogie constantly gets a mention. Their transition to starters will be much smoother than we witnessed in this past. Talented experienced depth is happening. It’s odd to the long time fan who expected the backup to be a huge drop off from the starter. That is what we have known.

We wonder how teams at the top maintain their prominence when they lose so many to the NFL or graduation. Layered talent and development. It’s fun to witness in person.

 

[vhcat70]

I think Paschal was thrown into the mix pretty quickly - Game 1 - & couldn't have done much better as a pure FR.

 

[RV2]

To piggyback on what caveman said, a healthy program doesn't see major contributions from most of its recruits until their third year or so due to the factors he mentioned in his excellent post. Too many times in the past UK has been forced into playing a kid as a true Freshman not really because he deserved or demanded it by his play but simply because we just didn't have anyone else.

Kash is entering his third year, Boogie is entering his third year, MOF we have a LOT of guys in their 3rd, 4th and 5th year that are talented players and will be major contributors this fall and that just hasn't been the case in the past. We have recruited at record levels (by our historical standard) since Stoops has been here and we are now seeing what has become a healthy program. Sure we have some question marks here and there and maybe even some deficiencies but in all cases we already have those answers on campus and won't be depending on a guy making it to campus as a Frosh this fall to answer a prayer.

And it's only going to get better from here.

 

[K_TIME]

Agreed it is a welcome site to see guys like Paschal, Kash, etc..having guys in front of them so they can ease into major plays on field.

But this year we have to see the defense make a major step up in performance and statistics need to back that up. Basically 9 of 11 starting spots will have a 3rd/4th year player at them this year...we have plenty of experience.

 

[Oldtrainer]

In the past, guys like Paschal, Boogie, Kash and Davis would be thrown right into the mix as true freshmen with fans expecting their potential to be seen on day one. While we still see that at some positions (Q at NG), these players who are serious about their future and their craft and are working hard, have been brought about at a different pace. Some fans have lamented that this must mean that the recruits were not as good as anticipated. Paschal was used situationally. Kash played special teams. Boogie got reps when starters were injured. Davis had a surprising spring and then actually RSed. Robinson waits his turn.

We are not accustomed to this process. We have such low expectations of our older players that we think guys like Square and Oates should just be difference makers from day one. But, older players with NFL aspirations are holding spots in front of these guys. Or, a player with a ton of experience and leadership ability like Love let Kash learn. Allen, Jones, Edwards and others with real SEC experience are letting the young talent digest the process, mature, and get serious for their time. Nothing is given because of a star count.

We see Kash who is evidently blossoming this spring at MLB. Players rave about Paschal’s work ethic and motor. Boogie constantly gets a mention. Their transition to starters will be much smoother than we witnessed in this past. Talented experienced depth is happening. It’s odd to the long time fan who expected the backup to be a huge drop off from the starter. That is what we have known.

We wonder how teams at the top maintain their prominence when they lose so many to the NFL or graduation. Layered talent and development. It’s fun to witness in person.

^^^Well done.^^^
Particularly like the way Kash has been brought along.
I expect this fall to see Mark Stoops best team.

 

[Deeeefense]

In the past, guys like Paschal, Boogie, Kash and Davis would be thrown right into the mix as true freshmen with fans expecting their potential to be seen on day one. While we still see that at some positions (Q at NG), these players who are serious about their future and their craft and are working hard, have been brought about at a different pace. Some fans have lamented that this must mean that the recruits were not as good as anticipated. Paschal was used situationally. Kash played special teams. Boogie got reps when starters were injured. Davis had a surprising spring and then actually RSed. Robinson waits his turn.

We are not accustomed to this process. We have such low expectations of our older players that we think guys like Square and Oates should just be difference makers from day one. But, older players with NFL aspirations are holding spots in front of these guys. Or, a player with a ton of experience and leadership ability like Love let Kash learn. Allen, Jones, Edwards and others with real SEC experience are letting the young talent digest the process, mature, and get serious for their time. Nothing is given because of a star count.

We see Kash who is evidently blossoming this spring at MLB. Players rave about Paschal’s work ethic and motor. Boogie constantly gets a mention. Their transition to starters will be much smoother than we witnessed in this past. Talented experienced depth is happening. It’s odd to the long time fan who expected the backup to be a huge drop off from the starter. That is what we have known.

We wonder how teams at the top maintain their prominence when they lose so many to the NFL or graduation. Layered talent and development. It’s fun to witness in person.

Good points, being able to redshirt and bring players along slowly as opposed to playing a lot of freshmen from the getgo is why the elite teams "reload" most years while the lower tiered teams have to rebuild. No we are not an elite team yet but we are following along a more successful path as far as player development and retention goes. That will pay off this year and the years to follow IMO.

 

[Deeeefense]

Sure we have some question marks here and there

True but other than quarterback our question marks are mostly with who will be the backups, not who will be the starters as in previous years.

 

[The-Hack]

I expect that our defense will make a serious step forward, and offset any offensive hick ups with a new QB starter.

My main concern is our inter-generational concern: NT/D tackle.

But we have some big, athletic bodies, and a possible monster on the way. Pascal moves closer to the ball, and some third and fourth year players at all the D-line positions might well eclipse even what we projected for them [Kengara Daniel is one to keep an eye on, IMO].

But Caveman's points are solid: think of Caudill and Robertson in 2000 . . . . yes, by 2002, they were our best interior D-linemen in decades, but they were both starting by their mid-freshman seasons, because our other choice at the position was a bulked up LB, or two.

Dennis Johnson: did he miss a snap his true frosh season?

Look at the true frosh in Stoops' first two classes that were running around in 2013 and 2014, athletic, but still too skinny to shine.

In short, our football team is beginning to have what many of our roundball fans are clamoring for: experienced talent.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

To piggyback on what caveman said, a healthy program doesn't see major contributions from most of its recruits until their third year or so due to the factors he mentioned in his excellent post. Too many times in the past UK has been forced into playing a kid as a true Freshman not really because he deserved or demanded it by his play but simply because we just didn't have anyone else.

Kash is entering his third year, Boogie is entering his third year, MOF we have a LOT of guys in their 3rd, 4th and 5th year that are talented players and will be major contributors this fall and that just hasn't been the case in the past. We have recruited at record levels (by our historical standard) since Stoops has been here and we are now seeing what has become a healthy program. Sure we have some question marks here and there and maybe even some deficiencies but in all cases we already have those answers on campus and won't be depending on a guy making it to campus as a Frosh this fall to answer a prayer.

And it's only going to get better from here.

That's just not true, all over the country true frosh start for top teams, Bama started a true frosh at qb in 16 and played for the NC, in 17 another true frosh led them in a comeback win for a NC. UGA had a true frosh QB in 17 alone with 2 other frosh OL starters on O and multiple on the 2 deep on D. Benny Snell was a major contributor as a frosh for UK. Top teams in 18 will have frosh who make big contributions. The difference is the top recruiting teams recruit and sign players come from bigtime HS programs who have gotten excellent coaching and been in great S&C programs. UGA will have multiple frosh starters this fall, I don't know how many we will wn in 18, offense will have to carry us first 3-4 games.

 

[vhcat70]

That's just not true, all over the country true frosh start for top teams, Bama started a true frosh at qb in 16 and played for the NC, in 17 another true frosh led them in a comeback win for a NC. UGA had a true frosh QB in 17 alone with 2 other frosh OL starters on O and multiple on the 2 deep on D. Benny Snell was a major contributor as a frosh for UK. Top teams in 18 will have frosh who make big contributions. The difference is the top recruiting teams recruit and sign players come from bigtime HS programs who have gotten excellent coaching and been in great S&C programs. UGA will have multiple frosh starters this fall, I don't know how many we will wn in 18, offense will have to carry us first 3-4 games.

This FR AA Team is loaded with players from top to good teams:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/21712577/2017-freshman-all-america-team

 

[Blue Decade]

I expect this fall to see Mark Stoops best team.

Based on returning starters and program momentum, it ought to turn out that way. My hopes are high this year.

 

[RV2]

That's just not true, all over the country true frosh start for top teams, Bama started a true frosh at qb in 16 and played for the NC, in 17 another true frosh led them in a comeback win for a NC. UGA had a true frosh QB in 17 alone with 2 other frosh OL starters on O and multiple on the 2 deep on D. Benny Snell was a major contributor as a frosh for UK. Top teams in 18 will have frosh who make big contributions. The difference is the top recruiting teams recruit and sign players come from bigtime HS programs who have gotten excellent coaching and been in great S&C programs. UGA will have multiple frosh starters this fall, I don't know how many we will wn in 18, offense will have to carry us first 3-4 games.

I'm fairly certain that you missed or misunderstood the point of my post. In years past UK has many times been forced to play immature or inadequate players not what you were saying at all.

The players you referenced forced their way on the field AND were highly ranked which has not been a regular occurrence at UK.

 

[Blue Decade]

That's just not true, all over the country true frosh start for top teams, Bama started a true frosh at qb in 16 and played for the NC, in 17 another true frosh led them in a comeback win for a NC. UGA had a true frosh QB in 17 alone with 2 other frosh OL starters on O and multiple on the 2 deep on D. Benny Snell was a major contributor as a frosh for UK. Top teams in 18 will have frosh who make big contributions. The difference is the top recruiting teams recruit and sign players come from bigtime HS programs who have gotten excellent coaching and been in great S&C programs. UGA will have multiple frosh starters this fall, I don't know how many we will wn in 18, offense will have to carry us first 3-4 games.

You are close. Every program uses true freshmen. But the most successful programs use fewer of them, because they don’t need to. Landon Young signed with UK as a 5 star and played immediately because of need. This year Darian Kinnard, a US Army All American and basically an equal prospect to Young, will redshirt because our program is deeper now. The best recruiters plan 3-4 years ahead. They recruit balanced classes by signing the best players they can sign every year at every position. A player who can play immediately at some programs cannot play immediately at others. High school players and their parents participate in these decisions by selecting a school that tentatively plans to play them immediately or redshirt them, as their preference may be. UK’s football program is deeper now, and has a less urgent need to play true freshmen. There is more competition and depth in the program. That doesn’t mean true freshmen will never play. But it won’t happen as often, and that trend is already underway, like RV said.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I think Paschal was thrown into the mix pretty quickly - Game 1 - & couldn't have done much better as a pure FR.

He was. But, just situational. Mainly third downs.

 

[The-Hack]

a healthy program doesn't see major contributions from most of its recruits until their third year or so

That's just not true

I love you Grump, but I bet a majority of the frosh at Georgia and all the programs you list red shirted. RV was talking about "most," not "all" incoming frosh.

In the last 20 years, our program, unfortunately, has had to rush 3 star and even marginal 2 star type recruits into paying immediately.

As context, Drake Jackson, our starting center, was perhaps the only legitimate 4 star type recruit we have red shirted since the establishment of the Rivals ranking system, in 2002. I suspect that all of the programs you list have had multiple 4 star type kids red shirt, every season since 2002.

 

[vhcat70]

He was. But, just situational. Mainly third downs.

And here I thought 3D was part of the mix.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

And here I thought 3D was part of the mix.

Hence the “he was.”

He was. But, just situational. Mainly third downs.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

And against a hurry-up offense like Missouri, Paschal did not play much until the 4th q.

 

[Poetax]

In the past, guys like Paschal, Boogie, Kash and Davis would be thrown right into the mix as true freshmen with fans expecting their potential to be seen on day one. While we still see that at some positions (Q at NG), these players who are serious about their future and their craft and are working hard, have been brought about at a different pace. Some fans have lamented that this must mean that the recruits were not as good as anticipated. Paschal was used situationally. Kash played special teams. Boogie got reps when starters were injured. Davis had a surprising spring and then actually RSed. Robinson waits his turn.

We are not accustomed to this process. We have such low expectations of our older players that we think guys like Square and Oates should just be difference makers from day one. But, older players with NFL aspirations are holding spots in front of these guys. Or, a player with a ton of experience and leadership ability like Love let Kash learn. Allen, Jones, Edwards and others with real SEC experience are letting the young talent digest the process, mature, and get serious for their time. Nothing is given because of a star count.

We see Kash who is evidently blossoming this spring at MLB. Players rave about Paschal’s work ethic and motor. Boogie constantly gets a mention. Their transition to starters will be much smoother than we witnessed in this past. Talented experienced depth is happening. It’s odd to the long time fan who expected the backup to be a huge drop off from the starter. That is what we have known.

We wonder how teams at the top maintain their prominence when they lose so many to the NFL or graduation. Layered talent and development. It’s fun to witness in person.

Very good points.

 

[WildCard]

I expect this fall to see Mark Stoops best team.

Based on returning starters and program momentum, it ought to turn out that way. My hopes are high.

Pretty much agree with this.

FWIW, I have followed UK football since the Bradshaw era. I have seen 10 coaches at UK. I can honestly say that all but John Ray, Bill Curry and Joker Phillips (all bad from the get go) managed to "build up" to back-to-back .500 or better seasons only to fall back to losing football after that brief success. Rich Brooks is the clear exception here having finished an enormous building job with 4 consecutive winning season and very likely a 5th had he stayed on.

IMO, 2018 projects as a huge season in assessing CMS's very short career as a HC. His 6th season with steadily improving results from season #1. The 2018 Cats probably lead the country in returning starters (from a 7 win team) and, based on way-too-early rankings enjoy a schedule that, early on, has only 2 "top 25" opponents (GA and MSU). A 6 win season would certainly be a disappointment, an 8/8+ win season would clearly be a success. How would a 3rd consecutive 7 win season stack up in today's football world? IDK.


Regarding freshmen and red shirting, in today's game, playing FR is not what it was like 15 years ago. Up until the Millennium a FR player was a rarity. I recall in 2002 former UofL coach John L. Smith all but cried when injuries forced him to play a true FR at DE about halfway through the season. That freshman was Elvis Dumervil (who was a pretty damn good player, even as a FR). Red shirting FR back then was simply the way the game was played. But things have changed since then. Some years you play more than others but FR play with some regularity most everywhere now. Even in the O-line which I believe is (next to QB) the hardest spot a true FR to come in and play.

I don't know how to quickly "research it" but I suspect, almost every team now plays some FR every year. I believe UK played 10 FR last year; UofL played 11. And AL played 17 and red shirted only 9 last year.

Peace

 

[jauk11]

Pretty much agree with this.

FWIW, I have followed UK football since the Bradshaw era. I have seen 10 coaches at UK. I can honestly say that all but John Ray, Bill Curry and Joker Phillips (all bad from the get go) managed to "build up" to back-to-back .500 or better seasons only to fall back to losing football after that brief success. Rich Brooks is the clear exception here having finished an enormous building job with 4 consecutive winning season and very likely a 5th had he stayed on.

IMO, 2018 projects as a huge season in assessing CMS's very short career as a HC. His 6th season with steadily improving results from season #1. The 2018 Cats probably lead the country in returning starters (from a 7 win team) and, based on way-too-early rankings enjoy a schedule that, early on, has only 2 "top 25" opponents (GA and MSU). A 6 win season would certainly be a disappointment, an 8/8+ win season would clearly be a success. How would a 3rd consecutive 7 win season stack up in today's football world? IDK.


Regarding freshmen and red shirting, in today's game, playing FR is not what it was like 15 years ago. Up until the Millennium a FR player was a rarity. I recall in 2002 former UofL coach John L. Smith all but cried when injuries forced him to play a true FR at DE about halfway through the season. That freshman was Elvis Dumervil (who was a pretty damn good player, even as a FR). Red shirting FR back then was simply the way the game was played. But things have changed since then. Some years you play more than others but FR play with some regularity most everywhere now. Even in the O-line which I believe is (next to QB) the hardest spot a true FR to come in and play.

I don't know how to quickly "research it" but I suspect, almost every team now plays some FR every year. I believe UK played 10 FR last year; UofL played 11. And AL played 17 and red shirted only 9 last year.

Peace

Bama had SIX five stars and 19 four stars that AVERAGED a 5.950 year before last, IIRC, pretty hard to keep that kind of talent on the bench.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

I'm fairly certain that you missed or misunderstood the point of my post. In years past UK has many times been forced to play immature or inadequate players not what you were saying at all.

The players you referenced forced their way on the field AND were highly ranked which has not been a regular occurrence at UK.

You said healthy programs don't use recruits until their 3rd year, that isn't the case. If he isn't making progress and at least seeing some time when the game is still in doubt by the middle to end of the 2nd year he will be passed by incoming classes. UGA played 17 frosh last season, that many or more are expect to play in 18, kids who signed in 16 and haven't see action by now are likely won't ever be big contributors. UGA will have very few sr starters, 5, maybe 6, about the same number of Jr, with 8-10 sop starters maybe a couple of frosh.

Yes some teams are older, but the top teams, Bama, Clemson, tOSU, OU are all putting young guys on the field early, I would say most if not all of the top 10 have very few kids if any who don't contribute to their 3rd year./

 

[WildCard]

Bama had SIX five stars and 19 four stars that AVERAGED a 5.950 year before last, IIRC, pretty hard to keep that kind of talent on the bench.

'Bama has had the #1 recruiting class in 6 of the last 7 years. In 2015 they fell all the way down to #2. 'Bama, of course, is an unusual situation, but the point is "good" freshmen play at a lot of places these days.

Peace

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

I love you Grump, but I bet a majority of the frosh at Georgia and all the programs you list red shirted. RV was talking about "most," not "all" incoming frosh.

In the last 20 years, our program, unfortunately, has had to rush 3 star and even marginal 2 star type recruits into paying immediately.

As context, Drake Jackson, our starting center, was perhaps the only legitimate 4 star type recruit we have red shirted since the establishment of the Rivals ranking system, in 2002. I suspect that all of the programs you list have had multiple 4 star type kids red shirt, every season since 2002.

Not the case at all, I think we had 3 starters who took a RS at some point, Fromm was a true frosh, the OT was a true frosh, the first OG was a true frosh. I can't think of but 1 starter on O who has redshirted, defense had 2 fulltime starters and 1 part time starter who RS. As for 3*, our starting C was a 3*DL, starting OG was a 3*, starting S was a 4 year starter as a 3*, nickleback redshirted because he transferred in, was a 2*, one starting CB was a 3* and never RS will be a 3 year starter..\

I am a firm believer it has alot to do with their hs S&C programs and the fundamentals taught in HS to how quick they see the field. Those kids who are from schools who excel in those 2 areas are way ahead of kids who don't get that in HS

 

[ARC Dog]

Grumpy is right - if you aren’t playing as a true freshman then the odds of you making the NFL are really small.

UKs defense has been gashed on the ground the last two years and I’d bet there’s no way that Kash Daniel is going to be a good LBr - if he was then he’d have been playing. Hope Im wrong for his sake but there’d be no reason to keep a talented kid on the bench while the first unit was getting boat raced.

 

[RV2]

You said healthy programs don't use recruits until their 3rd year,...

Nope, never said that at all and if that's how you interpret my postings perhaps you should just skip over them.

 

[billoliver40]

Mediator mode...not that it's needed....

In all fairness, I believe most of the true Frosh that see extended playing time are about as high 5 star as can be found. In addition, the teams that use them already have extensive depth where those frosh don't have to shoulder all the expectations.

Kentucky, just IMO, is doing it a solid way after being far, far behind in quality depth for years. The wear and tear of an SEC level season requires that depth to not fall apart at seasons end.
UK is making strides in getting that depth. Once that depth is there, the coaches can rotate that freshman talent in.

 

[jauk11]

'Bama has had the #1 recruiting class in 6 of the last 7 years. In 2015 they fell all the way down to #2. 'Bama, of course, is an unusual situation, but the point is "good" freshmen play at a lot of places these days.

Peace

Yeah, I think that is kind of what I said.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Nope, never said that at all and if that's how you interpret my postings perhaps you should just skip over them.

You said, "a healthy program does not see major contributions from most of it's recruits until thier 3rd year" What does that mean if it doesn't mean most kids aren't contributing by their 3rd year? Maybe I am not clear on what a healthy program is. Every coach is trying to improve their roster with every class, if they are doing that, kids are going to get passed, UK started 2 frosh CB a couple years back, they didn't wait until year 3, they passed kids ahead of them, Benny Snell didn't wait, he passed kids ahead of him, Lynn Bowden didn't wait, he passed kids ahead of him.

As for skipping over your post, I seldom look at the author, I just reply to them, if that bothers you, maybe you should try to do a little better research and be more accurate. if we are handing out suggestions.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Mediator mode...not that it's needed....

In all fairness, I believe most of the true Frosh that see extended playing time are about as high 5 star as can be found. In addition, the teams that use them already have extensive depth where those frosh don't have to shoulder all the expectations.

Kentucky, just IMO, is doing it a solid way after being far, far behind in quality depth for years. The wear and tear of an SEC level season requires that depth to not fall apart at seasons end.
UK is making strides in getting that depth. Once that depth is there, the coaches can rotate that freshman talent in.

I think it's fair to say that there are a higher percentage of 5* who contribute as a frosh than any others because there are only about 35 or so every year, but it is not exclusive. UGA started 3 frosh on O, a 5*, 4* and a 3*, the only 4 year starter on the team was a 3*. Much depends on the needs of a particular class, and some kids just get overlooked. Todd Gurley, was a 3* until the last ranking by Rivals and he went from out of the top 250 to top 50. He didn't improve that much on the field, he didn't do camps. He spent the summers running for the US jr Olympic track and field team touring Europe. After leading his team to a state championship, dominating the Shrine Bowl he got bumped to a high 4*. So, inspite of what the recruiting services claim, attending their camps is at the top of the variables used to determine their star rating, actually playing the game comes in no better than 2nd.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Grumpy is right - if you aren’t playing as a true freshman then the odds of you making the NFL are really small.

I would like to see those numbers. I just don’t believe that is true.

 

[gobigblue812]

At elite recruiting schools, they may have several JRs that head to the draft. Schools like UK RARELY have JRs drafted. At those same schools guys who are JRs or SRs and not seeing significant playing time are being recruited over or are busts, so they typically move on. Schools like UK aren't filling out the class with 5 and 4 stars like those other schools so they need to RS and develop lower rated players.

Outside if elite recruiting schools, MOST Fr should RS.

And please don't bring up the rare JR players from UK that gets drafted like Cobb.

 

[Blue Decade]

In the last 20 years, our program, unfortunately, has had to rush 3 star and even marginal 2 star type recruits into paying immediately. As context, Drake Jackson, our starting center, was perhaps the only legitimate 4 star type recruit we have red shirted since the establishment of the Rivals ranking system, in 2002.

Besides Drake Jackson, other 4 star prospects redshirted at UK include Andre Woodson, Ryan Mossakowski, Alex Smith, Kendall Randolph, Mike Edwards, Darius West, Drew Barker, Nick Richardson, Eli Brown, Tyrell Ajian, Javonte Richardson. Mossakowski and West were injured, but these other redshirts were developmental. Our program is not the only program that has rushed young players to fill needs. Sometimes this actually works out, such as Georgia rushing the redshirt off Jake Fromm in 2017 and South Carolina rushing the redshirt off Jake Bentley in 2016. At other times, it doesn't work out, examples of the latter in many programs too numerous to list. Grumpy is right that ranked programs tend to sign highly regarded high school players who can help early. But that missed the larger point of this thread, so I repeat my example. Landon Young and Darian Kinnard are roughly equal offensive tackle recruits. Young was a 5 star, and Kinnard was a US Army All American who played his high school ball in Cleveland and is probably more ready than Young was. Because Cole Mosier got hurt, Young played as a true freshman. But as RV explained, UK's roster is deeper and better now. So Kinnard will redshirt this year. The narrative about all the great players going to ranked programs isn't true either. In 2017, unranked Maryland, Tennessee, UCLA signed top 20 recruiting classes. It is obvious that our roster is better, deeper, and in less need of playing true freshmen than at any other recent time. In UK's 5-7 season in 2015, 3 true freshmen started. In UK's 2016 bowl season, 2 true freshmen started and another punted. In 2017, 1 true freshman started. In 2018, true freshmen kickers will play but I doubt any true freshmen will be in the starting 22 (and fewer than usual will make the playing rotations) despite the fact that our 2018 class was solid. So I agree with RV.

 

[RV2]

You said, "a healthy program does not see major contributions from most of it's recruits until thier 3rd year" ...

Look - if you read 'most' and interpret it as 'all' then I don't know what to tell you that would be flattering. Go ahead and type explanations until your fingers bleed if it makes you feel good but I'm done attempting to converse with you.

 

[vhcat70]

Besides Drake Jackson, other 4 star prospects redshirted at UK include Andre Woodson, Ryan Mossakowski, Alex Smith, Kendall Randolph, Mike Edwards, Darius West, Drew Barker, Nick Richardson, Eli Brown, Tyrell Ajian, Javonte Richardson. Mossakowski and West were injured, but these other redshirts were developmental. Our program is not the only program that has rushed young players to fill needs. Sometimes this actually works out, such as Georgia rushing the redshirt off Jake Fromm in 2017 and South Carolina rushing the redshirt off Jake Bentley in 2016. At other times, it doesn't work out, examples of the latter in many programs too numerous to list. Grumpy is right that ranked programs tend to sign highly regarded high school players who can help early. But that missed the larger point of this thread, so I repeat my example. Landon Young and Darian Kinnard are roughly equal offensive tackle recruits. Young was a 5 star, and Kinnard was a US Army All American who played his high school ball in Cleveland and is probably more ready than Young was. Because Cole Mosier got hurt, Young played as a true freshman. But as RV explained, UK's roster is deeper and better now. So Kinnard will redshirt this year. The narrative about all the great players going to ranked programs isn't true either. In 2017, unranked Maryland, Tennessee, UCLA signed top 20 recruiting classes. It is obvious that our roster is better, deeper, and in less need of playing true freshmen than at any other recent time. In UK's 5-7 season in 2015, 3 true freshmen started. In UK's 2016 bowl season, 2 true freshmen started and another punted. In 2017, 1 true freshman started. In 2018, true freshmen kickers will play but I doubt any true freshmen will be in the starting 22 (and fewer than usual will make the playing rotations) despite the fact that our 2018 class was solid. So I agree with RV.

Because Cole Mosier got hurt, Young played as a true freshman. .

I guess my memory is bad. I thought Young, early on as true FR, started sharing time with Mosier on OL w/o a Mosier injury & that Young played full-time in '17 due to Mosier being out for the year. Are you saying Mosier was hurt some in '16 too & that's what got Young on the field then? I'm not remembering. Thanks.

 

[Blue Decade]

I guess my memory is bad. I thought Young, early on as true FR, started sharing time with Mosier on OL w/o a Mosier injury & that Young played full-time in '17 due to Mosier being out for the year. Are you saying Mosier was hurt some in '16 too & that's what got Young on the field then? I'm not remembering. Thanks.

Yes. Mosier was injured in 2016 preseason camp. After Mosier returned in late September, 2016, he regained his starting assignment. Young was not a full time starter in 2017 either. Kyle Meadows got some starts at left tackle.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Look - if you read 'most' and interpret it as 'all' then I don't know what to tell you that would be flattering. Go ahead and type explanations until your fingers bleed if it makes you feel good but I'm done attempting to converse with you.

You never tried,, you made a statement that was incorrect, a healthy program, which to me is a top 20-25 program, if kids are not making contributions until their 3rd year they are going to be passed, if top 75 is you idea of a healthy program, then you may be right but no one wants to be there.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

You said healthy programs don't use recruits until their 3rd year, that isn't the case. If he isn't making progress and at least seeing some time when the game is still in doubt by the middle to end of the 2nd year he will be passed by incoming classes. UGA played 17 frosh last season, that many or more are expect to play in 18, kids who signed in 16 and haven't see action by now are likely won't ever be big contributors. UGA will have very few sr starters, 5, maybe 6, about the same number of Jr, with 8-10 sop starters maybe a couple of frosh.

Yes some teams are older, but the top teams, Bama, Clemson, tOSU, OU are all putting young guys on the field early, I would say most if not all of the top 10 have very few kids if any who don't contribute to their 3rd year./

Healthy programs play youth when youth is their best option.

Building programs play youth because it's their ONLY option.

We're transitioning into the former thankfully, after decades of the latter

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Healthy programs play youth when youth is their best option.

Building programs play youth because it's their ONLY option.

We're transitioning into the former thankfully, after decades of the latter

It's what I been saying, UK wasn't healthy when Stoops got here, but as time has passed, the program has gotten healthier and younger players are passing players from his first classes, UK's roster is full of examples right now of guys who did that, Jones,the center, Young, Snell, Bowden, Johnson was only here 2 years but he passed guys who were here longer, your best DL I can't remember his name was a frosh last year and passed multiple guys who were here 3-4 years. Probably half of UK's starters passed older guys to win the position and didn't wait until year 3 to be grandfathered in. UGA has recruited pretty well, we will have several frosh starting this fall, and over half the class will be in the 2 deep. If incoming guys are passing older guys you aren't improving your roster. Waiting your turn to come in year 3 guarantees a stagnant program.

 

[WildCard]

'Bama has had the #1 recruiting class in 6 of the last 7 years. In 2015 they fell all the way down to #2. 'Bama, of course, is an unusual situation, but the point is "good" freshmen play at a lot of places these days.

Peace

Coaches want maximum flexibility in playing vs. red shirting t-FR. I think most (including Stoops & Saban) are in favor of allowing t-FR to play in as many as 4 games and still retain 4 years of eligibility. Four games is 33% of the regular season. That could turn much of the second half of mismatch games into "freshman games". That's not necessarily a bad thing but is it a good thing? There will always be isolated cases (e.g., Ole Myth in linked article) where it is a "good thing" but overall, would it encourage coaches to play 3rd or 4th team true freshmen over 2nd team upperclassmen (who are probably desirous of more snaps). IDK.

EDIT: ja, I'll read closer next time.

Peace