A return of the platoon

[HoldMyBeer]

What? That's what being recruited over means. And furthermore if a coach is not recruiting over his roster (if able) he's not really doing his job. Cal is doing his job. Millennial thing? That's a college basketball thing.

I agree getting the best players in to play is a college bball thing, thus save the negative connotation term "recruting over". IMO "being recruited over" is a cop out for being outworked/outplayed by a better player, and has nothing to do with platooning.

And again I'll say Cal says some things he does not always mean (like not liking grad transfers.. til he needs/likes a grad transfer). Sure he said he won't platoon a couple years ago, I imagine he didn't envision having potentially 9-10 five star players on the same roster again neither.

Also I stand by my view that our #2 rated class which was allegedly so damaged by platooning wasn't a big deal. You say we lacked depth, I say we still have multiple 5 star recruits on the bench which is a luxury most NCAA teams would kill for. 38-1 was awesome, the following year we were co champs sec and won the SECt some people act like we were in the NIT and had a recruiting class full of BCG type players the following year.

 

[kyjeff1]

The Platoon idea was brilliant. Cal should have got votes for the HOF on that idea alone. If you have the depth of talent for the system, then the advantages seem to severely outweigh disadvantages. Plus, platooning tends to produce great looking per minute stats for one-and done hopefuls - so I don't get why that group wouldn't be down with it.

From a fan perspective, it was great. I bet the players on the team liked it too, but Cal's #1 goal is getting as many top prospects to commit as possible and if anything threatens that, he will put a stop to it.
Now, I don't understand how anyone could turn the platoon into a negative thing, but they did and Cal said he won't be platooning ever again. I wish that wasn't the case, but Capt. Jackass (aka holdmybeer) thinks he knows best and can't get it through his drunk skull that negative recruiting does happen, and it did in 2015/16.

 

[G-PIP]

Because Cal himself said no more, and for Cal to say that in a definitive manner means there's a good reason.

1. Cal likes short rotations and always has. He couldn't stop himself from shortening the rotation at the end of '15.

2. It DID hurt our recruiting. That's just a fact.

There will be no platoons. This is just a normal situation where guys were recruited over. If SKJ wants to be here, he better get to work. He's not going to be given playing time "just because" we need two rosters for a platoon.

No reason it should hurt recruiting when you have a recognized great coach explaining the virtues to recruits and their families who already have confidence in his looking out for their best interests. It’s hard to argue with Cal’s draft results.

Now if Calipari says the platoon is inefficient or doesn’t work well, then obviously end of discussion. But, that’s different than saying he’s worried about perception being used against him due to some having an inability to think outside the box. He can overcome that. Smart people willing to be open-minded and listen can come to a lot of common ground.

 

[kyjeff1]

Yeah, i mean that one year we only had the #2 recruiting class. It killed us.

Sigh, again, I'm not the one who said it. Cal said it himself.
Where have you been?
I'm all about platooning, I wish we could do it every year, but CAL SAID he will never do it again, because it was turned into a negative thing and used against him in recruiting. Cal's words, not mine.
I thought all UK fans already knew this, why is this a surprise?

 

[HoldMyBeer]

Oh, we got us a keyboard tough guy here.
I'm posting from a phone jackass, it fat fingered it. Are you a 5 year old? I think you know what I meant. Also, cracking on someone's grammar is the ole tell tale sign that you have nothing else of value to say.

Also, no, Cal doesn't say shit he doesn't mean, he is very calculated with his comments, especially in the media. What kind of an idiotic response is that? Cal meant every word he said when he stated that he would never platoon again. It ain't happening.

It took you an hour to comeback with that? You jump on my post being combative and somehow I'm the internet tough guy. Lol.

And yes, if you dare question someone's intelligence, or claim they misinterpret something you probably should come correct with the grammar. Some form of mass substitution will happen again this year, just like Cal offered a scholarship to a grad transfer. Why? Cause it benefits the program.

 

[morgousky]

No reason it should hurt recruiting when you have a recognized great coach explaining the virtues to recruits and their families who already have confidence in his looking out for their best interests. It’s hard to argue with Cal’s draft results.

Now if Calipari says the platoon is inefficient or doesn’t work well, then obviously end of discussion. But, that’s different than saying he’s worried about perception being used against him due to some having an inability to think outside the box. He can overcome that. Smart people willing to be open-minded and listen can come to a lot of common ground.

Cal doesn't want to platoon for two reasons as I said. He wants shorter rotations. As little as 6 if possible, and it hurt us on the recruiting trail.

I'm just going by the reality of what's going on.

 

[DCFseattle]

 

[BBUK]

I thank coach Cal said he would never platoon again..

I don't blame him but nothing stated that grouping players together for extended periods of time couldn't happen just a little bit...may call it..the Force or something of that nature...

 

[TyCatPrice14]

Don't like platoon, and hope we don't go back.

Care to honestly explain why? The only time we did not really platoon was against wisconsin and ND, look how close those games ended up being.

 

[kyjeff1]

No reason it should hurt recruiting when you have a recognized great coach explaining the virtues to recruits and their families who already have confidence in his looking out for their best interests. It’s hard to argue with Cal’s draft results.

Now if Calipari says the platoon is inefficient or doesn’t work well, then obviously end of discussion. But, that’s different than saying he’s worried about perception being used against him due to some having an inability to think outside the box. He can overcome that. Smart people willing to be open-minded and listen can come to a lot of common ground.

I guess the best thing for you and holdmybeer would be to call into Cal's call in show and ask him. You two are acting like we are pulling shit out of thin air and making it up and telling us we are wrong.
We agree with both of you that the platoon was a great idea. We also agree that it would be nice to do it in the 17/18 season, but there's this one big issue that is preventing that: John Calipari stated, on more than one occassion, that he will never platoon again.
So, again, to get your answer, you should ask John Calipari himself, the rest of us are just telling you guys what he said.

 

[caneintally]

I loved the platoon and I believe Cal did too, but he won't do it. It hurt recruiting too much.
I wish that wasn't the case because UK was racking when they were platooning.

Yep will never happen again.

 

[kyjeff1]

It took you an hour to comeback with that? You jump on my post being combative and somehow I'm the internet tough guy. Lol.

And yes, if you dare question someone's intelligence, or claim they misinterpret something you probably should come correct with the grammar. Some form of mass substitution will happen again this year, just like Cal offered a scholarship to a grad transfer. Why? Cause it benefits the program.

Unlike you, I have things to do, I can't just sit around a mobile home drinking beer all day.

 

[caneintally]

Yeah, i mean that one year we only had the #2 recruiting class. It killed us.

It did but Cal is Cal. But we missed out on basically 70% of our targets due in large part to the Platoon . Zimmermna , Diallo , Newman , Brown , to just name a few . Cal ain't a dummy he aint ever doing it again.

 

[HoldMyBeer]

Unlike you, I have things to do, I can't just sit around a mobile home drinking beer all day.

So why are you still here crying? Who hurt you snowflake?

 

[kyjeff1]

So why are you still here crying? Who hurt you snowflake?

Classic. Get your ass kicked, then resort to childish banter.
Your stay here will be short.

 

[G-PIP]

I guess the best thing for you and holdmybeer would be to call into Cal's call in show and ask him. You two are acting like we are pulling shit out of thin air and making it up and telling us we are wrong.
We agree with both of you that the platoon was a great idea. We also agree that it would be nice to do it in the 17/18 season, but there's this one big issue that is preventing that: John Calipari stated, on more than one occassion, that he will never platoon again.
So, again, to get your answer, you should ask John Calipari himself, the rest of us are just telling you guys what he said.

I think you’re taking your frustration with the other poster out on me – and frankly I’m not interested in being involved with that deal.

I never said or insinuated that you were making stuff up or were wrong about anything. I also never said anything about whether Calipari would or would not do it again. I was just talking in generalities about the effectiveness of a platoon system with a sufficient depth of talent. As you said, I thought we actually agreed that we liked the way the platoon worked in 2015. And if a poster like JPScott agrees with us, then it’s not a totally meritless idea.

 

[morgousky]

It did but Cal is Cal. But we missed out on basically 70% of our targets due in large part to the Platoon . Zimmermna , Diallo , Newman , Brown , to just name a few . Cal ain't a dummy he aint ever doing it again.

It's not hard to understand. The platoons hurt recruiting. Cals main thing is recruiting. Not to mention Cal would prefer as short of a rotation as possible.

It's not going to happen.

What happened to "you thank you no more than COTCH!!" Hahahahaha

 

[HoldMyBeer]

Classic. Get your ass kicked, then resort to childish banter.
Your stay here will be short.

Still crying.

 

[morgousky]

I think you’re taking your frustration with the other poster out on me – and frankly I’m not interested in being involved with that deal.

I never said or insinuated that you were making stuff up or were wrong about anything. I also never said anything about whether Calipari would or would not do it again. I was just talking in generalities about the effectiveness of a platoon system with a sufficient depth of talent. As you said, I thought we actually agreed that we liked the way the platoon worked in 2015. And if a poster like JPScott agrees with us, then it’s not a totally meritless idea.

I don't totally agree with JP Scott on this one. He's strictly looking at the data and that's not the ncaa's against ND and Wisconsin. I don't think we win that tournament with or without platoons.

Over powering that season because of platoons does not equal domination in the final four or elite eight. Regardless of the statistics from the season.

 

[JPScott]

Because Cal himself said no more, and for Cal to say that in a definitive manner means there's a good reason.

1. Cal likes short rotations and always has. He couldn't stop himself from shortening the rotation at the end of '15.

This excuse is trotted out time and again by those against platooning without any sense of irony.

What's being missed is that playing five players in a set rotation is the epitome of a short rotation.

The only difference is that there is not one but two of them. What this does in practice is allow short rotations to play and develop without the usual shortcomings, such as fatigue and foul trouble becoming a big problem.

In other words platooning allows for BOTH the advantages of playing with a short rotation AND playing a deep bench, without most of the drawbacks inherent with each style.

 

[Untouchables22]

I think he shuffles guys in and out a lot and plays 9-10 guys. No wholesale 5 man squad changeouts and he'll never use the p-word again. He's just going to have a deep team and play a lot of guys.

It's absolutely going to be this.....also don't forget that we learned with Briscoe that Cal is EXTREMELY aware of what a high school player's NBA stock is before they sign at UK and he is going to try and make sure they live up to that draft projection. If we signed Bamba and Diallo came back: Vanderbilt, Diallo, Knox, and Bamba would all four project as lottery picks and 3 of them top 10 picks. Those guys are going to get more time....

 

[kyjeff1]

I think you’re taking your frustration with the other poster out on me – and frankly I’m not interested in being involved with that deal.

I never said or insinuated that you were making stuff up or were wrong about anything. I also never said anything about whether Calipari would or would not do it again. I was just talking in generalities about the effectiveness of a platoon system with a sufficient depth of talent. As you said, I thought we actually agreed that we liked the way the platoon worked in 2015. And if a poster like JPScott agrees with us, then it’s not a totally meritless idea.

No, Ihm not taking anything out on you, I noticed you "liked" his ill informed post back to me, so I replied to both of you, since both of you are posting as if i'm the one that made the decision to not platoon.

 

[kyjeff1]

Still crying.

Still posting like a child.

 

[Elliott Tim]

if Bamba comes....every position except PG

Speculation or reality?

 

[Jakarii]

Won't platoon, will just play a bunch of players ala Arkansas back when they were juggernauts. They played about 10 players without platooning plus the bottom isn't as good as the bottom in the platoon year compared to the other players. I doubt baker gets a bunch of minutes just like Mulder didn't (and he was better on a team not as deep)

Green
Alexander
Vanderbilt
Washington
Richards
Knox
Wenyen
SKJ

Not going to make Baker and Wynard into what they aren't just because they play for UK

 

[HoldMyBeer]

Still posting like a child.

You want to hug it out bro? Are you still hurting? Let me know, I'm here for you. We can get through this together.

 

[wccat2969]

Since Cal has platooned before, he has experience and can make adjustments to how he did it last time. He also will know the makeup of the team and I am sure that will determine how he plays it.

 

[Wall2Boogie]

Sure it makes sense given the plethora of talent we have coming in but that 2015 team had retiring guys the number 1 pick and a junior stein. That said these guys aren't as god as that team. That's not a bad thing but let's be honest duke this yr was closest on paper but couldn't put it together. The 2015 team also had 2 lottery picks in lyles, and Booker coming off the bench, not to mention the best pure pg cal has had at uk in ulis. Some of these guys will be OAD but we will have some that will return based on development since everyone develops differently in college. I think alll guys will get playing time but I don't think cal will even entertain the platoon system

 

[Dablueman]

if Bamba comes....every position except PG

Alexander is ranked as high as 15 at scout and not ranked much lower than ulis was anywhere else he ran the world team well at the hoop summit and blew the ul recruits out of the water at the Derby festival. So if Diallo comes back pg too and because of the neg recruiting about the platoon Cal got away from doing that. Two things came into play though. The negative recruiting backfired. Wirh our top 8 guys off the 15 team with a contract towns going one and dominating and the 6th man becoming a star. Now you can tell a kid I can get you there win a bunch of games and you can play comfortable min and limit your chance of injury. Plus the last 2 years the refs could effectively effect our games by getting bam and fox in foul trouble. Always Happened with one or both right when we were going on a run and getting ready to break open the game. Hard to do that on next year's team we get bamba. We are almost foul trouble proof

 

[BBUK]

Care to honestly explain why? The only time we did not really platoon was against wisconsin and ND, look how close those games ended up being.

When Poy went down the platoon suffered horribly from that point. Before that tgere was potential for greatness...

 

[JPScott]

When Poy went down the platoon suffered horribly from that point. Before that tgere was potential for greatness...

Actually it didn't, if you look at the stats. UK's effectiveness dropped somewhat by using modified platoons (where one player leaked back) or when UK used Dominique Hawkins etc., but they were still at all-time levels.

The only time UK really started to take a hit was when they went away from platoons, such as in the Ole Miss game they almost lost. Calipari should have known then that going away from UK's strength was not the right thing to do.

It was clear at the time that the more UK went away from platoons, the less effective they played.

 

[anon_dge1vx8o0wnm7]

I think the best balance, if there were to be platoons would be:

Quade
Baker
Vanderbilt
SKJ
Bamba

SGA
Knox
Gabriel
PJ
Richards

Both lineups have shooting and rebounding. I'm just spitballing here though

 

[G-PIP]

No, Ihm not taking anything out on you, I noticed you "liked" his ill informed post back to me, so I replied to both of you, since both of you are posting as if i'm the one that made the decision to not platoon.

I understand now. And, I apologize. I honestly didn’t mean to like that post by HoldMyBeer. I meant to like Federal Cat’s post immediately below that one. I don’t know how that happened, but I wouldn’t intentionally like a post of childish name calling. Makes me look and feel stupid.

 

[G-PIP]

I don't totally agree with JP Scott on this one. He's strictly looking at the data and that's not the ncaa's against ND and Wisconsin. I don't think we win that tournament with or without platoons.

Over powering that season because of platoons does not equal domination in the final four or elite eight. Regardless of the statistics from the season.

Sorry. But I've got to go with JPScott. As usual, when it comes to basketball his opinions are well-reasoned and fact based.

 

[BBUK]

Actually it didn't, if you look at the stats. UK's effectiveness dropped somewhat by using modified platoons (where one player leaked back) or when UK used Dominique Hawkins etc., but they were still at all-time levels.

The only time UK really started to take a hit was when they went away from platoons, such as in the Ole Miss game they almost lost. Calipari should have known then that going away from UK's strength was not the right thing to do.

It was clear at the time that the more UK went away from platoons, the less effective they played.

Actually what I saw before Poy's injury was buy-in and good play (yes it was early) afterward not so much for a long while though they won.

 

[dubtown80]

I loved the platoon and I believe Cal did too, but he won't do it. It hurt recruiting too much.
I wish that wasn't the case because UK was racking when they were platooning.

Out of curiosity which would you of rather had...knox or Bamba? I think he'll go to Texas now that UK has so many good players. He'll want to be the man and you know that's what the coach at Texas will be selling him. But Cal is the best recruiter ever so UK still obviously has a good chance but I think he goes to Texas.

 

[BBUK]

Actually it didn't, if you look at the stats. UK's effectiveness dropped somewhat by using modified platoons (where one player leaked back) or when UK used Dominique Hawkins etc., but they were still at all-time levels.

The only time UK really started to take a hit was when they went away from platoons, such as in the Ole Miss game they almost lost. Calipari should have known then that going away from UK's strength was not the right thing to do.

It was clear at the time that the more UK went away from platoons, the less effective they played.

Also...that is about when the platoons were beginning to be modified.

 

[BBUK]

This excuse is trotted out time and again by those against platooning without any sense of irony.

What's being missed is that playing five players in a set rotation is the epitome of a short rotation.

The only difference is that there is not one but two of them. What this does in practice is allow short rotations to play and develop without the usual shortcomings, such as fatigue and foul trouble becoming a big problem.

In other words platooning allows for BOTH the advantages of playing with a short rotation AND playing a deep bench, without most of the drawbacks inherent with each style.

Has a slight touch of samantics..

 

[anon_013cn8yrfncx2]

If the experts are right that there aren't that many OADs in this class and thus on UK's squad then how can platooning hurt recruiting. Only need 2/3 studs to join the returnees for a monster 2019 team.

Who thinks Cal can't even get 2/3 guys?

 

[WildMoon]

I don't think so. But I respect your opinion, so tell me what you think the disadvantages are and
I’ll see which I agree with and whether they outweigh what I perceive as the advantages.

okay, i finally have the time to respond. There's a lot of thing that's hard to really to debate, but here it goes. (most of these aren't fact but opinion and theory)

1. Idea of Platooning assumes that there are some balance between first rotation and second rotation. However, the likely that is true will never really happen. Think about 2015 rotation for a second. Dakari Johnson and Marcus Lee should have similar minutes as KAT and WCS? If they weren't platooning, only time those two would get minutes is blow out with 5-7 minutes to go. So why platoon and give them minutes? In fact this REALLY happened later in the season. KAT/WCS started getting more critical minutes.

2. The system is far more fragile than people realize. Having a normal rotation and losing a key player does hurt, however you can have someone step up their game or shorten the rotation in general, impact is mostly singular. But the idea of platooning is that you have 5 in and 5 out. The second you lose a player, all that goes out the window. The whole system goes out the window. We saw this with Poythress. Initially we started keeping platooning with Hawkins, but that didn't work out. SO now who ever plays the best in first rotation stayed for second rotation. But then, you create a weak link.

3. This is also hypothetical, but the develop is slower for our key star players. I feel like comparing Davis and KAT, KAT developed solid inside game later in the season, and practically didn't have any mid range game. Davis developed interior game and then added mid range game within regular season. I feel like KAT would have had easier time getting post developed than Davis, but he took longer. Not to mention, he never incorporated midrange game, where he would have been comfortable and skilled to make it far more effective.

Another thing is, would WCS developed more reliable midrange also? I don't think he got enough rep to add that arsenal during platooning system. I would say the same thing with Booker.

These are some points from my perspective.