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anon_q409idbs5m40a
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Coleman was never one to take training seriously, according to those who knew him. He also had a 50+ per week hamburger habit according to sources.
5 Kentucky high school players that didn't pick UK, but you wish they had.
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You got any more unsubstantiated excuses you'd like to serve up with that? Maybe the dog ate his jock strap?
And did Kelly drink heavily the night before BOTH games? It was two different games a week apart, and Kelly got torched by Oscar in both of them (in one by something like a 43 to 4 margin--think about that, the same guy who'd just averaged a staggering 46.9 ppg in Ky could only muster a measly 4 points when guarded by Oscar).
Like it or not, the sad truth is Kelly never proved that he could succeed against high level competition. We only saw him against NAIA level competition in college, and he never played in the NBA. As it turns out, those two games against the Indiana All Stars ended up being about the only times we saw him against truly elite talent, and the results were unfortunately quite ugly.
As for the part about the legend dying, I'll admit I worded that sentence poorly. Yes, the legacy of his legendary high school career in Ky remains very much intact. But I doubt many Kentuckians in 1956 imagined the King Kelly story would end up being only about high school ball.
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anon_q409idbs5m40a
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First of all, you're obviously not from Eastern Kentucky as your tone indicates so don't comment about things of which you have no clue. Unsubstantiated?As for that remark I confirmed what I had posted with one of my friends that has covered Mountain Sports for years and like myself, knows people that either played with or against, went to school with or had a close relative that knew Coleman. Yes, I'm very well aware of what happened in the all-star game as I'm just as aware that Coleman was a heavy drinker and had done so for BOTH games. First thing my colleague said when I asked him what happened was that Coleman had been drinking heavily and was not anywhere near ready to play either game. He was also grossly out of shape and was dealing with a leg injury. As I said, Robertson was the better player but Coleman could've given a better account of himself. The only reason he didn't play D-1 ball was because he had been ruled ineligible for receiving inappropriate benefits, which was previously discussed on this board. Coleman made some poor personal decisions which is true, especially in regard to his drinking which cost him a career in the NBA, but he did end up playing in the American Basketball League for Baltimore. As for your remark about not playing against elite talent, check out what he did against the Harlem Magicians in a game that was played to win, not for entertainment, so your comment about not playing against high level competition is incorrect.
Fair enough, I'll concede you likely have better sources when it comes to that sort of info than me.
However, if he did heavily drink the night before both games, that speaks rather poorly of his character. You'd think after getting embarrassed in the first game he'd have enough pride to approach the second one differently.
Also seems odd because back in those days the Indiana/Kentucky series was taken very seriously (100 percent the opposite of what it's become now). And, from what I've read, that was especially true in 1956, because the newspapers had been hyping it as this big showdown between these two mega-stars from each state, the chance to find out which one's better. Hardly seems the right time for one of those mega-stars to go off on a drunken bender.
But I suppose heavy drinkers have never been known for rational decision-making. Nor have 18 year olds. And Kelly was both.
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anon_q409idbs5m40a
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He was a notoriously heavy drinker and apparently didn't take these games seriously. His drinking not only cost him a shot at making the Knicks in the NBA but also a chance to be on the 1960 Olympic team. As I said before, he was not one to take training seriously and would eat upwards of 50 hamburgers a week. He was a kid from a coal mining town in Eastern Kentucky and not acclimated to city life at all. I've seen a lot of talented players from that region flame out once they end up at a major college. He was not disciplined similar to most high school stars from that era in similar situations. His coach, Copper John Campbell, apparently overlooked a lot of things he did since he was the star. I just wish there were old film clips of him but that's a different thread. My father and uncle both knew him and played against him and both said he was a Maravich type player who had full rein on the court but just not smart when it came to personal decisions.
Lose what. I am not in a discussion to win> It is simply a sharing of ideas/opinions. Not every conversation is a debate or competition.
This prompted me to youtube him out of curiosity, and I found this:
Sounds like you're quite right about his excess appetites. A bloody shame. Wish his parents, coach or some other grown-ups would've smacked the kid on the head and forced him to put the damn whiskey bottle down.
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anon_q409idbs5m40a
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This is classic! I haven't been in the Wayland Gym in over 40 years. Looks as if it's been well preserved and I still remember how it was a shooter's gym. All of those old gyms in Eastern Kentucky were built along the same lines but they were also fire traps. The old gyms at Prestonsburg, Martin and Betsy Layne all burned down but I think that the ones in Garrett, Maytown and Auxier are still there. Video was great and that's probably the only clips you'll see of Coleman.
I am not in a discussion to win
"Say what you will, but I will stick with first hand knowledge of my own."
Kind of sounded like you we're in a discussion to win with the first hand knowledge and all.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, how valuable it is open to debate.
You for example. I'm sure you have some valuable information as someone with 'first-hand knowledge' but for whatever reason have refused to really give much in terms of details, or to give much of an explanation for some of the comments you've made so far.
I'm genuinely intersted in what you have to say about the topic.
For example, there's still a lot of unanswered questions about Rupp's home visit to Wes Unseld in April 1964. I've read a number of wild claims, including that while Rupp was talking to Unseld that UL assistant coach John Dromo was hiding out in the kitchen. Or that as Rupp was leaving the house, John McLendon was on his way in (although by that time Unseld had already left).
Even the departure of Unseld is kind of a mystery. Reportedly early into Rupp's visit Unseld's HS coach Bob Mulcahy showed up to take Unseld to a speaking engagement. Unseld claims that he read in the paper a few days later that someone at UK complained that he didn't stay for the visit, and that suggested to Unseld that UK wasn't serious about his recruitment.
This brings a question to me as I've looked in the Louisville Courier Journal, the Louisville Times, the Louisville Defender and the Lexington Leader and Lexington Herald and unless I missed it, no such article appears suggesting this. I'm curious which paper Unseld was talking about as I'd like to locate the article.
I thought you'd like that vid. I did too.
If you're into the game's history, 1956 is an unusually interesting year in HS hoops because you had three contiguous states (IN/KY/WV) that each had this mega-star reputed to be the greatest HS player anyone had ever seen. Yet, because there was no summer AAU scene back then, they'd never directly competed, so there was no way to reliably measure them against each other to know which one was actually best.
Two of the three--Oscar and West--very much lived up to the hype. Became NBA superstars. Indeed, for a long time time were known as the two greatest guards in NBA history (at least until Magic and Jordan came along).
The third--sadly and unfortunately--followed a different path.
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anon_q409idbs5m40a
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Very true and for some reason a lot of really good players from Eastern Kentucky, just like King Kelly, never made it on the big scene. There's quite a long list; Bob Tallent from Maytown left and became the leading scorer in the nation at George Washington University, Larry Hall from Martin stayed one season, Danny Hall (who I knew personally) left during his sophomore season, Todd May from Virgie lasted a little over a year, Jody Thompson from Fed's Creek left after one season, Todd Tackett transferred after his sophomore season (I believe). The only one that stayed since I've been watching UK Basketball was John Pelphrey and we all know what a player he turned out to be. Quite a collection of talent in 1956 among the three states.
Bob Mulcahy was my HS Coach He is still living.I talked to him at length last year when he was inducted into Seneca Hall of Fame.The Rupp visit went well but Miulcahy said "He was ok with Wes signing with Louisville.The safety issue was Mrs .Unseld big concern.I assure you that Rupp wanted Wes in the worst way..He wanted to bring in black players and Dr.Oswald encouraged it.Rupp would not take a black just for the color sake..He had to be good enough to help UK.
as Rupp's Manager I drove him everywhere..his eyesight was poor. I was a sounding board He talked about the failure to sign Unseld,Beard and Mc Daniels.It bothered him...
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anon_q409idbs5m40a
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Didn't Rupp also recruit Butch Beard and Clem Haskins but both turned him down? I had heard that Haskins really wanted to come to UK but don't know the circumstances on why he went elsewhere.
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anon_q409idbs5m40a
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Can you imagine a WVU team with Jerry West and Coleman? I do not think that King Kelly would've fit into an structured offense but it's an interesting thought.
Beard verbally committed to Rupp but he had signed a Missouri Valley Conference LOI to uavel.He was afraid of the legal ramifications..Clem was never a serious recruit foR UK..
There was the North-South HS All-Star game held in Murray Ky. This event started in 1949 and ended in 1956. For those interested, I have a mini-website which covers this event, including listing the complete rosters, boxscores and game writeups etc.
Link to North-South mini-website
Incidentally, in terms of 1956 none of the three players you're referencing (Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, or King Kelly Coleman participated in it.)
Coleman was supposed to play and I believe was there that week but a few days before the game was played withdrew due to an ankle injury. I don't know why Jerry West didn't participate or even if he was invited.
The same could be said for Oscar Robertson although my assumption is that black players were as a custom not invited to this event. I've never seen that confirmed anywhere however.
Looking over that event, they never had an African-American player play in the event. They did have a Latin American player, an American Indian and a French Creole player (Fred LaCour) etc. so they weren't completely discriminatory. LaCour in fact played in the 1956 event and was named MVP of the game.
As I said, the 1956 event was the last one held and by all reports went well and attracted the largest crowd to date. I've always wondered (but again have never seen verified) why the event ended after that, but have always wondered if race was a part of the reason. If anyone has any information about this I'd like to hear it.
UK was too late with Clem Haskins. They had been looking at opening athletics to black athletes but didn't formally do so until May 1963. Haskins had already signed a Grant-in-aid in late April 1963 with Louisville (he later quit school due to homesickness and transferred to Western Kentucky).
Reportedly Rupp personally congratulated Haskins for his performance after the Kentucky East-West All-Star game and told him "I'd like to see you at Kentucky" but again Rupp's hands were tied at the time as he hadn't been given permission to recruit black players.
Haskins followed UK growing up but never considered playing for them to be a possibility so it never really seemed to be an option until it was too late.
FWIW I personally think this was a huge missed opportunity for UK. If they had acted a little quicker in terms of untying Rupp's hands and he had been able to convince Haskins to come to Lexington (and importantly had been able to keep him on campus, something Louisville failed to do), that it would have been significantly easier to get Unseld to seriously consider UK the following year and certainly would have made it much more likely Butch Beard to sign with UK the year after that. [as it was Butch Beard came very close to coming to UK, something many UK fans (much less rival fans) don't seem to realize.]
Not accurate at all. Just my way of saying my information is not the same.
In fact, when i have been inaccurate or been convinced otherwise, I tend to acknowledge such with either a LIKE of the comment or directly.
Just here to share opinions.
The information I have is from my uncle who was recruited in the early 60s. What most people do not know is how recruiting was performed before the 70s by most teams. It was not face to face, it was word of mouth.
Most of the time a coach never saw a player until they were on campus for a visit. Simply having a picture was even rare.
Once they appeared on campus, the recruiting began. My uncle came with the team manager. That team manager was the focal point of the coaches. My uncle was seen as the companion. Their skin was a bit different.
Very true, but considering the only reason he was in the state was that his dad was a UL coach, there's not much point in wishing that one would've picked UK. There was a better chance of my mom playing for UK than Allen Houston.
He's one for UL fans to lament. He was theirs if UT hadn't hired daddy away.
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Just an anecdote here that is only loosely related to the OP:
I went to a tiny school that had "junior high" (as well as the library, offices, band room, gym, etc.,) on the first floor. High school was on the second floor.
I was in 7th or 8th grade when Wes Unseld and Butch Beard (and at least one of UofL's coaches -- I didn't recognize him) came to visit our star player, Clarence Glover. He would later join Jim McDaniels and Jim Rose at WKU. Jerry Dunn and Rex Bailey would join them the following year. The press would routinely mention that four of the five were from within 50 miles of Bowling Green. (Rose was from Hazard.)
Anyway, Unseld was listed at 6-8, Beard at 6-5. But Beard seemed just as tall. Unseld was huge (and sort of mean looking).
FWIW, those McDaniels, et al were the starters on Western's Final Four team in 1971. This was the year after Issel graduated. We had Mike Casey, Tom Parker, Larry Steele, and Tom Payne -- a top 10 team. Western thumped UK by about 25 in the NCAA tournament.
It was a big deal in that part of the state. They even sold vinyl LP's of the play-by-play with a red cover of "The Game." Western's play-by-play announcer was Wes Strader, a UK graduate.
Now back to the high school players: We had a good team and we played a game at Taylor County (very likely an SKAC tournament game -- possibly the final). Paul Haskins (one of Clem's younger brothers) was Taylor County's star. Coach Rupp attended the game -- I guess to watch Glover and Haskins.
I got Coach Rupp's autograph. I didn't know that he was a pretty big guy.
I went to a tiny school that had "junior high" (as well as the library, offices, band room, gym, etc.,) on the first floor. High school was on the second floor.
I was in 7th or 8th grade when Wes Unseld and Butch Beard (and at least one of UofL's coaches -- I didn't recognize him) came to visit our star player, Clarence Glover. He would later join Jim McDaniels and Jim Rose at WKU. Jerry Dunn and Rex Bailey would join them the following year. The press would routinely mention that four of the five were from within 50 miles of Bowling Green. (Rose was from Hazard.)
Anyway, Unseld was listed at 6-8, Beard at 6-5. But Beard seemed just as tall. Unseld was huge (and sort of mean looking).
FWIW, those McDaniels, et al were the starters on Western's Final Four team in 1971. This was the year after Issel graduated. We had Mike Casey, Tom Parker, Larry Steele, and Tom Payne -- a top 10 team. Western thumped UK by about 25 in the NCAA tournament.
It was a big deal in that part of the state. They even sold vinyl LP's of the play-by-play with a red cover of "The Game." Western's play-by-play announcer was Wes Strader, a UK graduate.
Now back to the high school players: We had a good team and we played a game at Taylor County (very likely an SKAC tournament game -- possibly the final). Paul Haskins (one of Clem's younger brothers) was Taylor County's star. Coach Rupp attended the game -- I guess to watch Glover and Haskins.
I got Coach Rupp's autograph. I didn't know that he was a pretty big guy.
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I was Rupp's Manager and I took prospects out to the Coach House for a steak dinner shrimp cocktail and pecan pie.Rupp gave me a chit to pay for dinner Told me not to tip more than $2.00
![[laughing]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/laugh.r191677.gif "Laughing [laughing]")
Wes Unseld was never more thaan 6' 6 1/2" he had no mean streak in him but you didn't mess with him
Didn't Unseld throw the shot and discus in high school? Maybe even in college?
You're right that recruiting was different back then.
In terms of Rupp, it was rare for him to travel outside of Lexington to recruit. When he did it was more usual for him to attend a banquet at the school and give a speech, then speak to the parents of the recruit while he was there. Meeting the recruit himself wasn't really the focus of the visit.
Rupp operated under the philosophy that when UK made a scholarship offer to a recruit, that the recruit should recognize what an honor this was to play for the greatest coach and greatest program in the country. If they turned down such an offer, then they probably were not smart enough to make it at UK anyway.
In terms of Unseld, he's made comments that he didn't feel the UK and Rupp recruited him hard enough, even though Rupp did personally go to his house [along with reportedly on a separate occasion the President of the University, and the fact that the Governor of the State and others (including the head of the Louisville NAACP) all recommended he attend UK.]
To me, this is an interesting difference of opinion, as those who were close to Rupp and familiar with their recruiting efforts at the time claimed that UK had put more into recruiting Unseld than any other recruit to date.
As far as your story about your uncle, it's not exactly clear to me how this relates to Rupp, or Kentucky, or the Unseld recruitment. Again, it seems like you have some things you'd like to say but seem to keep beating around the bush. Hopefully some day you'll feel comfortable enough to say what's on your mind.
Going with a more modern list just to be different, as guys like Beard, Unseld, Houston, and Griffith are kind of no-brainers.
Chris Lofton (Tennessee)
Shelvin Mack (Butler)
Scotty Hopson (Tennessee)
D'Angelo Russell (Ohio State)
Remy Abell (Indiana / Xavier)
Chris Lofton (Tennessee)
Shelvin Mack (Butler)
Scotty Hopson (Tennessee)
D'Angelo Russell (Ohio State)
Remy Abell (Indiana / Xavier)
Nobody mentioned Frank Selvy from Corbin, who once scored 100 points in a college game for Furman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Selvy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Selvy
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anon_q409idbs5m40a
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Yes, nice that he was finally mentioned. If one is interested, check out the Mountain Sports Museum website and you'll find that there's a lot of players that could've played at UK but went elsewhere.
You should write a book about your experience with Coach Rupp
Bill Keightley always said"don't write books you piss Off those you included and those you left out"
I speak to sports groups about 10 times a year about Rupp to tell the truth HE WAS NO RACIST
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