I agree with him, without great players he sucks. He can’t “coach up” a group of lesser talented players
Lacks the ability to implement a system.
Lacks the ability to implement a system.
‘The better my players are, I seem to coach better ‘
- Thread starter Smashcat
- Start date
The easier the job, the more I seem to like it.
^^^^ cleans the stables
I hope he was as that would be correct. His better players just make him look better but no matter the talent level he has on the team he is still the same can’t coach for shit basketball coach. Highly doubt he thinks he can’t coach for shit though.
Heck, unless the talent is generational, he struggles to win WITH talent too.
I'd be embarrassed if I only won 1 title with the amount of NBA talent he has had.
Eh...if I was in the Hall of Fame in addition to that one title, I wouldn't be embarrassed about anything. Disappointed I didn't cash in on a few more golden opportunities (2010, 2015, 2019), no doubt. But definitely not embarrassed.
Yeah I know people hate to hear things like this, but in a one and done tournament as the NCAA tournament is, there's a little bit of reliance on luck with this stuff.
As such I always have felt like Cal's job is to put us in that group of 6-8 teams at the end of the year that have legit shots at winning it all. Cause the more you do that, the more likelihood you are coming out of this with multiple titles.
In other words, I don't really kill Cal for what happened in 2017 and 2019. You kill him for the awful COVID season, 2013 seasons like that IMO.
With the exception of the 2017 uNC loss and last years KSU loss, UK was the higher seed and favorite in every other NCAAT loss under Cal. At some point, he has to be considered the common denominator… Even in his narcissistic mind.
Much like Bill Self. In his 17 losses at KU, Self (who most think is the #1 coach in the game right now) has done:
2004 As 4 seed lost to 3 seed
2005 as 3 seed lost to 14 seed
2006 as 4 seed lost to 13 seed
2007 as 1 seed lost to 2 seed
2009 as 3 seed lost to 2 seed
2010 as 1 seed lost to 9 seed
2011 as 1 seed lost to 11 seed
2012 as 2 seed lost to 1 seed
2013 as 1 seed lost to 4 seed
2014 as 2 seed lost to 10 seed
2015 as 2 seed lost to 7 seed
2016 as 1 seed lost to 2 seed
2017 as 1 seed lost to 3 seed
2018 as 1 seed lost to 1 seed
2019 as 4 seed lost to 5 seed
2021 as 3 seed lost to 6 seed by 34 points
2023 his team as a 1 seed lost to 8 seed (with Self ill)
Self wasn't considered to be all that great until recently. We laughed at KU and Self when he was losing to the likes of Bradley, Bucknel, Northern Iowa and Wichita state. Now, KU fans are the ones doing the laughing.
The game changed in 2016. Coaches like Self, Drew and Wright were mid prior to that, since 2016, they've thrived.
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You are sliding away from your main point. EVERY great coach has lost multiple times to lesser ranked teams. It will always happen.
Look, Self is a serial cheater and runs a thug program. I will take Cal over him every day of the week (and I realize he has faults) as he has recruited good citizens and followed the rules here at UK.
Translation, I am not that great at coaching so I need really top talent to I can win despite that fact.
Cal is a charlatan, a bullshitter, and an opportunist. Nothing wrong with either but in my view he's also a stubborn, mediocre coach.
Yeah, every coach gets upset, but I don't think you read what I posted. Cal has lost 11 times in the NCAAT… 10 of those losses were to underdogs and he had more talent.
Then you have to realize, there are only 3 other seasons unaccounted for There and 2 of them are easily in the running for worst seasons of all time. 2021 is easily the worst season of all time.
And I don't know why you’re bringing up Bill Self, he's not our concern. But nevertheless, I damn sure wouldn’t take Cal over Self right now, that's just crazy.
Gee that's probably a jab at the fanebase but if he's serious then wow.
Of course you're going to coach better with better players. Cal needs the John Walls of the world who are just that much quicker, faster and better than the average player. Always has and always will.
This screams more life into the just roll the balls out and scream GOOOOO THEORY.
Of course you're going to coach better with better players. Cal needs the John Walls of the world who are just that much quicker, faster and better than the average player. Always has and always will.
This screams more life into the just roll the balls out and scream GOOOOO THEORY.
Not true at all. Cal loves the fans. He even loves the CHC. You won't find any hate in Cal.
Beat our '96 team with 1 player and 4 ball boys. Went to the FF with that same team. Went to the FF at Memphis with 2 players and 3 ball boys. What have either of those schools done since Cal left? Or Before he got there?
First FF here had Knight and a bunch of role players. Took out the overall number 1 seed in the tourney. Against what many said was the best coach at the time.
Cal has the best record against higher seeds in the tourney of all coaches since he's been here. Also more NCAA wins over the same time frame.
The facts don't support the super minority stories. The CHC has the whine down pat. Just nothing to back up the whine. That's why they are a laughing stock and will remain so.
What do you mean?
I haven't looked, but I can't imagine Self, K and Roy went through stretches where they missed the tournament altogether twice and lost to underdogs 10 out of 12 times.
But here's the thing, young or not, Cal has had an incredible amount of NBA talent at his disposal. By March, they're as developed as they're going to be in college and given the tools they have, that made UK the favorite in those games.
Now, Cal should get credit… .bigtime credit, for those wins in 2011 and 2014. He did a hell of a job during those 2 runs, no question about it. I just wish we could get that version of Cal back.
The stats you’re using are EXTREMELY front loaded. He has been garbage for the last 7 years. He dug his heels in and refused to adapt and is still doing so. He spent much of his career as a leader and pioneer, and won a lot of freaking games doing it. The last 7 years, he’s looked like nothing more than a washed up old coach who thinks his way is best and results be damned.
Happens to most old coaches, so he isn’t special in that way, but it does mean it’s time to move on.
It's amazing how many folks overlook Self's struggles in the tournament against weaker teams.
The flipside to Cal losing to teams seeded worse than his teams is that you have to be pretty highly seeded to begin with for that to even happen. Which means for the most part, you've had some pretty good seasons on the whole.
Things like this are a bit misleading. When teams like UK or Duke or Kansas lose in the tournament by nature it's probably going to be against a worse seed. Just because those teams are consistently rated so highly.
Things like this are a bit misleading. When teams like UK or Duke or Kansas lose in the tournament by nature it's probably going to be against a worse seed. Just because those teams are consistently rated so highly.
People have joked on Self a lot for his early NCAAT losses. But that second title has kind of changed his overall narrative, for now.
Nobody is overlooking Self, because the conversation has never been about Bill Self.
However, since 2016, Bill Self has
Two E8's, two final 4's and a title. It’s really tough to knock the guy when he has that kind of a recent record and they've been beating us on the regular lately.
The win at KU 2 years ago was awesome, but that's all we have on them since that 2014 champions classic win.
Yeah, yeah, that’s a cool point and all, but he still lost to lower seeds, sometimes, MUCH lower seeds.
There is no excuse for losing to 2010 Wva, no excuse for losing to IU in 2016, no excuse for losing to K-state in 2018, or 2023, no excuse for losing to Auburn in '19 and there is definitely no excuse for losing to Saint Peters. Cal had sooo much more talent than all of those teams.
I get losing to Wisconsin, I hate how we lost, but Wiscy was a 1 seed and I get why we lost to 2017 uNC, that wasn't on Cal, but dang, you can't lose to underdogs that often when you have that kind of talent advantage.
2010 West Virginia was the best #2 seed, and many thought could have been a 1 seed.
2016 IU was the Big 10 Champion
2019 Auburn had just throttled top 10 teams Tennessee in the SECT final, Kansas and North Carolina. They were the hottest team in the nation.
2023 Kansas State was a 3 seed and we were a 6 seed.
At my age, I have seen many, many UK teams lose to underdogs in the NCAAT. I have also seen many other top programs lose over and over. It happens and will again.
It does make me wonder tho how that compares to other big time coaches in college bball. We see Self's higher up but I wonder Cal compares to some of the other ones.
As for Cal losing to MUCH lower seeds here at UK:
2010 UK was 1 seed to West Virginia 2 seed
2011 UK 4 seed lost to 3 seed UConn
2014 UK 8 seed lost to 7 seed UConn
2015 UK 1 seed lost to 1 seed Wisconsin
2016 UK 4 seed lost to 5 seed IU
2017 UK 2 seed lost to 1 seed UNC
2018 UK 5 seed lost to 9 seed KSU
2019 UK 2 seed lost to 5 seed Auburn
2022 UK 2 seed lost to 15 seed St. Peters
2023 UK 6 seed lost to 3 seed KSU
Here is an updated list of the top NCAAT coaches heading into 2024:
2023: NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament Records of Active Coaches
www.dbwoerner.com
I don’t have any of those numbers, but the big difference (at least to me, if we’re looking at other top coaches during Cal’s tenure- guys like K, Roy, etc.) is those other coaches have multiple titles. I said above; before Self’s second title he was joked on for his NCAAT losses. That seemed to change after he got that additional title. All the sudden he is talked about as one of the best active coaches. I really don’t remember anyone putting him up there until the second title.
If Cal is able to win another title, it takes away the sting of some of those other loses and puts him in good company with coaches who’ve won multiple titles.
2016 had Ulis AND Murray, I rest my case.
2019, Auburn just lost it's best player to injury. We blew them out by 30 two weeks earlier, we were far more talented.
2010 Wva might have been the best 2 seed, but we had Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe and Patterson ANDDDDD, do you recall what happened to Wva in their very next game? Duke smoked them by 21 with non NBA talent.
None of these teams went on to fo squat, so basically we lost to teams we shouldn't have lost to.
I thought we were supposed to be the gold standard?
You just proved my point. Look at all those losses as the favorite.
This isn't just a regular old college basketball program, this is a program that has multiple kids with NBA talent, size, length and athletesism and a "Hall of fame coach".
And the only reason KSU 2023 was seeded higher than us, is because somehow we managed to lose 12 games with a generational rebounder, who was a NPOY, + a lottery pick + another first round NBA talent. Cal, 2 years in a row, put the fate of the team in Wheelers hands. That's unbelievable to me.
UNC, duke,Kansas UK will always be the favorite in the NCAA tournament matchups if they have a decent team. So unless they win the tournament they lost to an underdog.
