Rupp Rafters NBA Legends GM Draft Round 1: GonzoCat90 vs Gossie21
- Thread starter GonzoCat90
- Start date
Poetry. You should have stopped there.
You could have also added that Gonzo's team will either be bricking up 3s all night or trying to score at the rim against Olajuwon and Rodman.
Gonzo’s team is probably better, but this is close because it’s on Rupp Rafters. His team is built like a Cal team, and UK fans are tired of having the best team in the country filled with giants, bulldogs, and super-athletes that loses in the tournament to a scrappy team with good shooters.
Gonzo i like your team. I like those trucks you picked. My holdup, Westbrook and lack of outside scoring. Can't seem to get passed it. Put Miller and Wall on your team I go Gonzo. As is, I think I'll have to give the nod to Gossie.
This one was tough. No hard feelings.
This one was tough. No hard feelings.
Ok I'm going to change my mind. Reason?
Kareem. And the fact that it's a team full of pit bulls. One of those beast could surely contain Westbrook. And the physicality of Gonzo's team would cause problems especially if allowed to. I like strong physical teams, just wish Westbrook wasn't there.
I'm gonna say Gonzo, really tough game to pick.
Kareem. And the fact that it's a team full of pit bulls. One of those beast could surely contain Westbrook. And the physicality of Gonzo's team would cause problems especially if allowed to. I like strong physical teams, just wish Westbrook wasn't there.
I'm gonna say Gonzo, really tough game to pick.
Out of all of these this is the matchup Id probably most like to see in real life.
I will say one more thing. Gonzo is right that the conversation is pitched singularly toward three-point shooting right now, but there’s a reason for that. It has become a determinative influence on the game.
Just to illustrate the kind of basketball Gonzo’s team would be playing:
1. Golden State starts two guys shooting over 40% from 3 (Curry and Thompson) and a third who is seven feet tall and averages almost 40% (and shot 42% this season).
2. The two best teams in the Final Four this year each had three players shooting over 40% from 3.
3. Even North Carolina’s throwback championship team in 2017, loaded with bruisers, had Joel Berry volume-shooting 42% from 3.
4. John Calipari’s only championship team, as good as it was in the post, also had a guard volume-shooting 50% from 3.
5. Even the sad Cleveland Cavaliers have Kyle Korver shooting 43%.
And bright spot of Gonzo’s roster is one guy shooting 37%, and nobody else shooting anywhere near that well.
I’m not saying it can’t be done. With a roster that good, it probably can. But boy will it be ugly. It will require our imaginations to picture how a game can even be won in such a way.
Just to illustrate the kind of basketball Gonzo’s team would be playing:
1. Golden State starts two guys shooting over 40% from 3 (Curry and Thompson) and a third who is seven feet tall and averages almost 40% (and shot 42% this season).
2. The two best teams in the Final Four this year each had three players shooting over 40% from 3.
3. Even North Carolina’s throwback championship team in 2017, loaded with bruisers, had Joel Berry volume-shooting 42% from 3.
4. John Calipari’s only championship team, as good as it was in the post, also had a guard volume-shooting 50% from 3.
5. Even the sad Cleveland Cavaliers have Kyle Korver shooting 43%.
And bright spot of Gonzo’s roster is one guy shooting 37%, and nobody else shooting anywhere near that well.
I’m not saying it can’t be done. With a roster that good, it probably can. But boy will it be ugly. It will require our imaginations to picture how a game can even be won in such a way.
Please remember these standards for future rounds against other opponents, because if Carter/Pippen aren't good shooters I can't wait to match up with the other squads.
There's also a problem with the other comparisons to the modern game. Golden State works because they're supremely talented and multidimensional. They also play 5 guys who can score/dribble/shoot/defend.
If klay weren't a great defender, Steph a great passer, Durant great all around, etc, it doesn't work.
Instead of Draymond pushing tempo and spacing the floor and creating, he has Rodman. Instead of Steph making it all go, he has Wall. Entirely different style. Instead of Durant creating his own shot with the threat of the others, he has spot up shooters. Instead of Klay he's got a guy who doesn't shoot as well and plays no defense.
So in an all time draft he built a team to play like the Warriors except they don't shoot it as well and don't do anything else? Apparently he's turned Hakeem into Ben Wallace
By the way, the voting is close because the other teams in this had rather play Gossie next round. Check the voters.
There's also a problem with the other comparisons to the modern game. Golden State works because they're supremely talented and multidimensional. They also play 5 guys who can score/dribble/shoot/defend.
If klay weren't a great defender, Steph a great passer, Durant great all around, etc, it doesn't work.
Instead of Draymond pushing tempo and spacing the floor and creating, he has Rodman. Instead of Steph making it all go, he has Wall. Entirely different style. Instead of Durant creating his own shot with the threat of the others, he has spot up shooters. Instead of Klay he's got a guy who doesn't shoot as well and plays no defense.
So in an all time draft he built a team to play like the Warriors except they don't shoot it as well and don't do anything else? Apparently he's turned Hakeem into Ben Wallace
By the way, the voting is close because the other teams in this had rather play Gossie next round. Check the voters.
Way to close there with two arguments that are incredible and absurd to an extreme level. How on earth have I turned Hakeem into Ben Wallace? That makes no sense whatsoever and has never been argued. Do you actually think Hakeem won't factor into my offense? That's on you. Here I thought you were referring to Dennis Rodman as the player unlikely to take a shot, but if you meant Olajuwon then you are very much mistaken. I haven't mentioned him much because I think Olajuwon and Kareem are close enough together in quality and impact on the game that it's not worth pointing out. On the other hand my team has a clear advantage with outside shooting. It's such a mismatch that you're relegated to making up terrible arguments like the two top 3-point shooters of all time don't shoot it as well as the Warriors.
And then the last claim... I mean you aren't doing much to distance yourself from Hillary here.
I can’t speak for gossie, but I don’t think he “built a team to play like the Warriors.” His team has a better point guard than the Warriors, a better rebounder than any player on the Warriors, and a better pure post player than any on the Warriors. Playing to its strengths, Gossie’s team would win a series over the Warriors in a shutout.
I only mentioned the Warriors as one example of many, not as a paradigm. The Warriors’ starting lineup includes two elite shooting guards and a shooting wing. Steph does okay at point, but he isn’t Wall’s equal for the competencies associated with that position. The Warriors do a lot of things well, but the essential ingredient to their success is three-point shooting.
Way to close there with two arguments that are incredible and absurd to an extreme level. How on earth have I turned Hakeem into Ben Wallace? That makes no sense whatsoever and has never been argued. Do you actually think Hakeem won't factor into my offense? That's on you. Here I thought you were referring to Dennis Rodman as the player unlikely to take a shot, but if you meant Olajuwon then you are very much mistaken. I haven't mentioned him much because I think Olajuwon and Kareem are close enough together in quality and impact on the game that it's not worth pointing out. On the other hand my team has a clear advantage with outside shooting. It's such a mismatch that you're relegated to making up terrible arguments like the two top 3-point shooters of all time don't shoot it as well as the Warriors.
And then the last claim... I mean you aren't doing much to distance yourself from Hillary here.
You haven't mentioned him. All you've talked about is shooting with two guys who can't do much of anything else.
The shooting has been your singular focus and I've explained why I believe that is.
So tell us, how do you plan to play? How does this team fit?
It is kinda James Comey like
In all seriousness I really like your team and I keep going back and forth because of Westbrook. I tried not to let my bias for him effect the decision, although I think my bias is a reflection of his inability to care enough about the win to do whatever it takes. Hard one here, I'm actually 50/50 here but damn...Pippen, Jabar, and Barkley.......you can go UFC or basketball......I like the alpha teams built on toughness and although I don't like Westbrook and believe it almost kills Gonzo's team in some respects, maybe with those guys around him (who can beat his ass and he knows it) he would be controlled.
Your team I really like as well, I'm a big Miller fan too. But then the Greek freak on his bench....I don't know. I would have voted both if possible.
Did you just tell us John Wall isn't as good a point guard as Steph Curry?
It seemed your point was that the teams who win now take lots of threes. But you completely ignored how Wall and Rodman don't fit that at all. They are not great fits in that modern day style. Wings being good shooters isn't some revolution. He isn't flanking them with Steph and Dirk.
Rank the guys in the lineups:
Kareem
Hakeem
Barkley
Pippen
Westbrook
Miller
Allen
Rodman
Carter
Wall
But because 6 and 7 shoot better than 9, his team wins?
I put it on everything though, I would take Westbrook dead last if I were really able to pick from that list.
I haven't mentioned Olajuwon? You mean other than the 3 times I mentioned him, or is there some other way you meant it?
As for my team's play.... I have John Wall setting the table. He's not a strong outside shooter, but he won't be asked to do that. He will control the ball and get it to the shooters on the outside who just happen to be the 2 best shooters to play in the NBA. On the off chance that Vince Carter decided to play defense and cover whoever he is guarding, Wall can get the ball to Olajuwon on the block who can engage the Dream Shake. The few times my team may actually fail to score on their first attempt I have Dennis Rodman the highest career offensive rebounding% player in the history of the NBA to extend the possession.
On defense. Well I don't have to worry about your teams' outside shooting on defense. So I would just funnel your players into the teeth of my defense and force them to try and score over top of Olajuwon and Rodman.
My team is obviously geared towards outside shooting, but also geared toward players that can play well together. Thankfully, I'm not going to have to worry about Russell Westbrook calling his number on 42% of the teams possession and alienating every other superstar to play with him.
That's the funny thing. I think even Gonzo would admit... if he could take off his ridiculous argument hat... that both of these teams would likely be in the top-3 of this draft (along with Aike's team). But you have to put your best foot forward while trying to poke holes in the other team. So it is what it is.
Heh, I know you’re playing the game right now, but I think you also know I didn’t say any of those things. Let me clear it up:
1. John Wall is a better point guard than Steph Curry. Steph Curry is a much better shooter than John Wall. Curry does a serviceable job running a team with so many good scorers that it doesn’t require an elite point guard to run.
2. I didn’t say that winning teams take a lot of threes, I said winning teams make a lot of threes.
3. Making a lot of threes doesn’t require that every person on the team be an elite three-point shooter. However, it does usually require more than a single three-point threat, and if you want to win against good teams, it usually requires better than 37%.
4. Rodman fits perfectly with a 3P volume-shooting lineup. On offense, just rebound and kick out. Rodman can contribute 100% of his unique gifts while his teammates rain threes. You can’t say that about a Westbrook or Pippen.
5. Wall doesn’t fit as well as Rodman, but he still fits. He keeps the defense on its heels. Your backcourt is easy to scout: run under screens and don’t sweat the close-outs. Just make sure there are no open lanes to the basket. But Wall/Allen/Miller? Good luck not making a mistake as they rotate around screens. And Wall will burn you if you get too close. Westbrook and Pippen can burn you too, but no team would let it happen. Sag all day, baby.
That was just an insanely tough first round game @Aike was the recipient of a very generous round 1.
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You think Steph Curry is one-dimensional? That isn't remotely true. Klay (on offense), maybe, but Steph? Egads, man.
Gossie has two shooters that will play (if you play Booker or Kerr in this format, you're already toast). They play the same position, have redundant skill sets, and lack the size (3) and skill/quickness (1) to guard other positions credibly. The rest of his team has no shooting. Wall? Hakeem? Rodman? AK47? Maybe Marbury? Golden State's had issues all year with spacing because they have 3 all-time shooters and no one else teams fear; Warriors bloggers/beat writers/podcasters have been harping on it all year. Same problem here, only moreso.
I hear you on having guys who aren't ball dominant, but there are limits. Bruce Bowens, Tayshaun Prince, Steve Kerr, Devin Booker, and similar are just not good enough. Good piece at The Ringer talking about how you're only as good as your worst players; I think that applies here.
This is correct.
A lot of evidence that all players should at least pose some threat of a 3; it's another way of saying that depth of shooting matters. And threat is about volume AND accuracy. Boston was a good example of that. Ironically, Golden State is a good example of where the lack of shooting depth inhibits the elite shooters that it has (they have 3 all-time shooters and a bunch of turds from 3). Gossie has two great shooters, some non-shooters (Rodman, Hakeem, Wall), and some good shooters who shouldn't be playing (Booker, Kerr, Prince).
Can't put Rodman and Wall in the lineup and expect to have any driving lanes whatsoever. You'll have Rodman's man roaming, Wall's man going under screens, and Hakeem's man looming.
Not all that hard to work off screens when there's 3 non-shooters in the lineup.
No driving lanes? Rodman may not pack an offensive punch by himself, but I'm not sure how many screens Westbrook would be able to handle from him. Then you would have Barkley switched out on Wall or trying to keep him from driving. Either way that creates mismatches and rotations that would open up either driving lanes to get Wall to the basket where Kareem would have to decide whether to leave Hakeem or concede a basket. Or Pippen would have to leave his man and then there's an outside shooter open.
This nonsense about Booker/Kerr/Prince not being able to play is crazy. Tayshaun played on the 2008 Olympic Team was the key lockdown defender on Kobe in the 2004 NBA Championship series, the year prior to that he locked Allen Iverson down before losing to the Nets. Booker is an elite offensive player on a career arc that is matched only by Kobe Bryant among shooting guards. Kerr is an 11th round pick that would only play in spot minutes to provide shooting. He was so terrible that he won 5 NBA titles in the larger role than what he would be asked to do on my team.
I voted Gonzo because I came in for no reason to talk smack about his team and now I feel bad. Sorry, gossie. In reality, I’m with Morgousky in thinking this would be a competitive series.
I’d like to propose changing the rules for a future NBA legends draft competition. Instead of teams of 13, where the theoretical impact of the full bench is impossible to analyze and people will primarily just look at the starting five, limit team size to seven and factor all seven players realistically as a rotation.
I’d like to propose changing the rules for a future NBA legends draft competition. Instead of teams of 13, where the theoretical impact of the full bench is impossible to analyze and people will primarily just look at the starting five, limit team size to seven and factor all seven players realistically as a rotation.
Fair enough. He's got a good team, it helps when you always draft top-5. I feel pretty good about the team I was able to cobble together from the 11th spot.
Looking at the other matchups I think this is the closest and most competitive 1st round matchup.
Only one player on Gonzo starting line up has better career 3 point fg% than John Wall...
and that's Vince Carter...at 37%...i mean come on...that's just terrible spacing.
I am sorry but that's a atrocious 3 point shooting line up and we know it just doesn't work. That means everything you do will be more difficult...you won't win anything if you are taking hard 2s...
and the notion that Booker can't play in this group is beyond idiotic.
Top it off...you got Rodman who is the best rebounder in the history of NBA...
and that's Vince Carter...at 37%...i mean come on...that's just terrible spacing.
I am sorry but that's a atrocious 3 point shooting line up and we know it just doesn't work. That means everything you do will be more difficult...you won't win anything if you are taking hard 2s...
and the notion that Booker can't play in this group is beyond idiotic.
Top it off...you got Rodman who is the best rebounder in the history of NBA...
Volume matters as much as, if not more than, 3 point % for creating spacing. That's been well-known in NBA circles for like 5 years. Having a lineup full of decent but not great shooters willing to let fly is exactly how Boston overperformed expectations. Having no shooters around several elite ones is why Golden State has bogged down at times despite 3 of the best shooters of all-time.
Booker can't even make the Western Conference All Star team (or Eastern) because he's legitimately terrible on defense. He was 36th among shooting guards in RPM below guys like Allen Crabbe. RPM's not perfect, you say? Fine, how about PER (box score stats only, should help him): 18.1, or slightly above average. WS/48? 0.063 (terrible). VORP? 1.2 (not good). Booker is exciting because of his scoring outbursts, but he's not that efficient and he's a turd on defense. So his strengths are the things that scale poorly with other elite players, and his weaknesses are what scale well. I know this UK site loves to overrate UK players, but Booker, Prince, and Rondo have no place on these teams. Even Towns is marginal (terrible D at a premium D position), and he's miles better.
Make the case with objective evidence for why Booker plays against all-time greats.
Booker in 5 years, maybe. Booker now? Not even close. Prince? You know who else got rotation minutes in the Olympics? Kenneth Faried. Prince is the type of player you'd want, he just isn't good enough in a tournament filled exclusively with ALL TIME GREATS to get serious run. Kerr was a bench player in the regular NBA for a reason. In the all time NBA? You guys can't be serious. Prince is maaaaybe close. Booker? El. Oh. El.
lol, he still got 24.9, 4.5, 4.7. Surround him with great players and he just becomes that much more deadly. Besides..he is ONLY 21. ROFLMAO. most of these players didn't even start till they were 21 anyways.
Of course he can play. He'll be in all-star no time. I don't care about his stats now. Dude is a scorer, also...you seem to have forgotten but there is A LOT of players being drafted.
and defense? The opponent has no three point shooter, you can pack that shit in like crazy. One player can defend like 2 players each time with that packed line up.
Also...its easy to add dynamic shooters....
If we are looking at who Booker would be matching up against in this scenario he not only belongs on the court but would dominate. Gonzo's backup SGs are Joe Johnson and Gail Goodrich. I won't even bother to address Goodrich being able to check Booker that is just an absurd notion. So if we look at Johnson, his VORP is about on par with Booker's he never got above 1.0 in his first 5 seasons, had a burst of 5-6 good seasons then dropped back down to going back and forth between not good and atrocious. Only twice in Joe's career did he register higher than 19 on PER. BPM is basically zero, and his DBPM is negative. The fact that Booker got above 18 while being a terrible rebounder is astonishing since rebounding weighs heavily in the PER formula.
Pointing out that Booker has yet to make an All-Star game is barely an argument. This isn't the 50s-70s were everyone made all-star games. Booker is universally recognized as a rising star, but saddled with playing for an organization that has been deliberately tanking his entire time in the league. Hard to put the lack of All-Star games on his shoulders there.
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Booker is scoring at a rate only behind KD/Lebron.
sheesh, i guess Booker has no chance to be able to match up with ALL time great.
sheesh, i guess Booker has no chance to be able to match up with ALL time great.
For his age. Are we just projecting where these guys will be? And its literally his only skill.
Wtf does Joe Johnson's first 5 years have to do with anything? The criteria was entire career, including peak value.
i am generally projecting... also his "only" skill is scoring? lol, thanks for the laugh.
I never said anything about Joe Johnson...not sure what you are quoting me for that.
Two great squads but went with Gonzo, barely. Russ and Barkley on the break would be amazing to watch.Kareem for some reason gets lost in the shuffle when people discuss the GOAT. This was very close, Gossie did a damn good job here.
My bench has three guys who would make his team better if he started them.
His has three who shouldn't have been drafted.
I have three of the best four players on the floor.
My "weak link" is a guy who won MVP from the point guard spot and has averaged back to back triple doubles.
Vince Carter is 8th all time in made 3s but I don't have a shooter.
His starting lineup is better at one position, but Reggie couldn't guard Vince.
My starters are better. My bench is better. It's pretty simple. You're winning an all time tournament when your second best player is Reggie Miller? Can't see it.
His has three who shouldn't have been drafted.
I have three of the best four players on the floor.
My "weak link" is a guy who won MVP from the point guard spot and has averaged back to back triple doubles.
Vince Carter is 8th all time in made 3s but I don't have a shooter.
His starting lineup is better at one position, but Reggie couldn't guard Vince.
My starters are better. My bench is better. It's pretty simple. You're winning an all time tournament when your second best player is Reggie Miller? Can't see it.
More proof that I rig these things. Really wanted to go against one of my internet buddies in the first round on a board that fetishizes shooting and loves John Wall.
