POLITICAL THREAD

[fuzz77]

Why didn't the large tax increase on the rich in 2012 stem the growth of income inequality? Perhaps it is related to the DC suburbs extreme wealth growth and lack of "trickle" out of our govt.

Income inequality isn't going to be remedied in any 1 or even 4 year cycle. To argue because a tax increase in one year didn't drastically change the direction of the slide...and to call it "large"??? We didn't get where we are in one year, it's been a 40 year slide.
But to your question...the US income share of the top 1% did fall in 2013 from 22% to 20%...still a far cry from the 9% they had in 1980. It reached it's peak in 2008 @ 23.5% so it looks like Obama has been doing something right.
BTW, the only time in history that the top 1% held more than 23.5%...1929. Perhaps you should study a little history about what happened around that time.

 

[Deeeefense]

I understand that. So rather than fix the problems of manufacturing jobs through shitty policies like NAFTA, we'll just go ahead and just give menial jobs a pay raise? Does that even make sense? For me, no.

All while scam schools such as ITT Tech and Phoenix etc etc are driving people in school debt.

I'll ask. What's the point of getting an education? Why not just go to McDonalds and earn as much as an entry level position into a good professional business?

This is a thought provoking point. We frequently point to the exportation of jobs which is a factor, but something that is rarely discussed and is also a huge factor is the extreme productivity increases we have seen over the last decade which have literally eliminated a lot of skilled or semi skilled jobs. Yes productivity increases are good, and have led to record corporate profits at many companies and helped fuel the bull market but the side effect is a lot of folks left without jobs.

I worked in an auto plant one summer back in the late 60s. The assembly line shift had at least a couple hundred workers, fitting the cars with every part and piece. Last year I toured the local Volkswagon plant and I was astounded at the fact that it was almost a ghost town. There were a few people walking around with notebooks and some monitoring computer displays and talking on the phone but that was it, all the work was being done by robots.

When's the last time you talked to a bank teller? ATMS have replaced most of that. Check out lines in grocery stores and big box retailers now have self-serve lines - more jobs eliminated. Computers don't just answer calls, they route calls, provide information, schedule service appointments and even initiate calls to you.

The bottom line is we can do everything we could do 10-20 years ago with half the people or less, so like Bill points out, what is left for people without professional degrees except the service jobs? No that doesn't justify paying $15/hour for flipping burgers, but it does have to change the way we look at the min wage. I would like it to at least be brought up to historical levels of around $10.50/hr and then indexed to inflation. Also as pointed out when the min wage is increases it pushes up other pay scales across the board.

With the enormous gap between middle class and lower wages and upper 5-10% wealth growth which has been disproportionate, we do need to take measures to level the playing field a little bit.

The Chipmunk has offered an idea - it involves giving corporations tax breaks for having a profit sharing program for employees. I think the idea might have some merit.

 

[CatDaddy4daWin]

Ah, yes, the whole "the illusion of America as superpower is finally and thankfully over!" crowd. Brings back such fond memories of the late 1970s, malaise, relocated hair parts, and peanuts......

Nowhere does it say that. What is does say is that our power is limited and wars to try and prove our dogma have proven costly, economically, politically, and with actual lives lost. But you might have a career in politics awaiting.

 

[fuzz77]

Gotcha. I see.

Do you think menial labor jobs should be $15 an hour?

Honestly, I don't think it really matters what the number is as the labor cost gets passed along to the consumer...same with taxes. The question is what value is given to this labor vs that labor?

 

[Willy4UK]

I don't know about $15 an hour but, I do believe that they should make more than lets say $10 an hour to make it worth their while to stay off of the government teet. Make it more appealing to work than to sit on their asses all day and live sometimes better than those who are actually contributing to the work force and paying taxes.

In Malaysia where my wife is from. They give more money to welfare people who work. If they don't work, they get even less.

 

[Willy4UK]

Honestly, I don't think it really matters what the number is as the labor cost gets passed along to the consumer...same with taxes. The question is what value is given to this labor vs that labor?

I dunno. but $15 an hour is ridiculous for any menial job that doesn't require a professional education.

 

[Willy4UK]

This is a thought provoking point. We frequently point to the exportation of jobs which is a factor, but something that is rarely discussed and is also a huge factor is the extreme productivity increases we have seen over the last decade which have literally eliminated a lot of skilled or semi skilled jobs. Yes productivity increases are good, and have led to record corporate profits at many companies and helped fuel the bull market but the side effect is a lot of folks left without jobs.

I worked in an auto plant one summer back in the late 60s. The assembly line shift had at least a couple hundred workers, fitting the cars with every part and piece. Last year I toured the local Volkswagon plant and I was astounded at the fact that it was almost a ghost town. There were a few people walking around with notebooks and some monitoring computer displays and talking on the phone but that was it, all the work was being done by robots.

When's the last time you talked to a bank teller? ATMS have replaced most of that. Check out lines in grocery stores and big box retailers now have self-serve lines - more jobs eliminated. Computers don't just answer calls, they route calls, provide information, schedule service appointments and even initiate calls to you.

The bottom line is we can do everything we could do 10-20 years ago with half the people or less, so like Bill points out, what is left for people without professional degrees except the service jobs? No that doesn't justify paying $15/hour for flipping burgers, but it does have to change the way we look at the min wage. I would like it to at least be brought up to historical levels of around $10.50/hr and then indexed to inflation. Also as pointed out when the min wage is increases it pushes up other pay scales across the board.

With the enormous gap between middle class and lower wages and upper 5-10% wealth growth which has been disproportionate, we do need to take measures to level the playing field a little bit.

The Chipmunk has offered an idea - it involves giving corporations tax breaks for having a profit sharing program for employees. I think the idea might have some merit.

I agree with this I guess. I mean there is no easy fix.

 

[P19978]

BTW, the only time in history that the top 1% held more than 23.5%...1929. Perhaps you should study a little history about what happened around that time.

Correlation is not causation.

 

[P19978]

... so it looks like Obama has been doing something right.

No he hasn't.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/11/the-obama-economic-record-the-worst-five-years-since-world-war-ii/

 

[jamo0001]

In Malaysia where my wife is from. They give more money to welfare people who work. If they don't work, they get even less.

I like the Swiss system: If you lose your job, you get unemployment benefits as long as you submit an updated resume to the local labor bureau. If they find you a job for which you're qualified, you either take the job, show them that you've been hired for a higher-paying job, or you lose your free money from the government.

 

[jamo0001]

I agree with this I guess. I mean there is no easy fix.

Worker productivity rates and wage growth have been headed in opposite directions for almost 40 years. The days of being paid a living wage to screw caps onto toothpaste tubes are long gone.

 

[Bill Cosby]

The question is what value is given to this labor vs that labor?

If only there were some way to answer this question.

Anybody have any ideas?

I mean, we definitely need the federal government to step in and answer the question, right? Or maybe there's another means of figuring out what goods are worth in the world?

 

[KingOfBBN]

Came here just to see the blind loyalty on the Obama Iran deal.

 

[P19978]

I missed this gem: re-posted for emphasis...

fuzz77 said: ↑
The question is what value is given to this labor vs that labor?

 

[Deeeefense]

Willy, you asked the question...

This is to what I was referring. It isn't what you can get at McDonald's vs an entry level position...hell, I know a few lawyers who had to work for peanuts their first couple of years out of law school...but now they are partners in those law firms. Education isn't about what you can get right out of school, it's what you can get (expect) for the rest of your career.

Also it's important not to forget that a lot of folks in restaurant and retail type jobs actually have degrees.

 

[Deeeefense]

I like the Swiss system: If you lose your job, you get unemployment benefits as long as you submit an updated resume to the local labor bureau. If they find you a job for which you're qualified, you either take the job, show them that you've been hired for a higher-paying job, or you lose your free money from the government.

State laws address this. Most states require that those on unemployment apply to at least one or two available jobs during the pay period (usually two weeks). Similar rules apply, if you decline available work that was offered to you, you forfeit your benefits.

 

[warrior-cat]

Honestly, I don't think it really matters what the number is as the labor cost gets passed along to the consumer...same with taxes. The question is what value is given to this labor vs that labor?

I do think it would matter to some degree. Depending on how much the wage increase is and how that increase would affect the prices for that business/businesses. Take for instance that fact that everyone else not on a minimum wage job did not get a raise and now have to shell out more money for the products they buy. That could cause them not to buy as much, so, profits for the business goes down and some people need to be let go to off set the loss. Possibilty/Probability. Which is why I suggest that the increase be moderated in over a few year period to see what kind of impact it could possibly have.

Now, someone suggested some kind of incentive for businesses that uped their minimum wage to help employees and that would be a good idea. Off hand, two things would come out of this. Better quality of life for the employee and higher quality of service from the employee for the business. Also, greater retention numbers which adds to the higher quality of service because of the experience that an employee who has been there longer provides.

 

[Deeeefense]

I do think it would matter to some degree. Depending on how much the wage increase is and how that increase would affect the prices for that business/businesses. Take for instance that fact that everyone else not on a minimum wage job did not get a raise and now have to shell out more money for the products they buy. That could cause them not to buy as much, so, profits for the business goes down and some people need to be let go to off set the loss. Possibilty/Probability. Which is why I suggest that the increase be moderated in over a few year period to see what kind of impact it could possibly have.

Now, someone suggested some kind of incentive for businesses that uped their minimum wage to help employees and that would be a good idea. Off hand, two things would come out of this. Better quality of life for the employee and higher quality of service from the employee for the business. Also, greater retention numbers which adds to the higher quality of service because of the experience that an employee who has been there longer provides.

Good perspective - also market forces determine the price of products and services so while a company may like to pass on 100% of a cost increase, if it results in less revenue, the company will act to absorb some or all of the incremental increases.

Your second paragraph describes the Costco model of management, which starkly contrasts with the Wal-Mart model of treating labor as a commodity.

 

[Bill Cosby]

I don't really pay much attention to foreign policy, I'd rather fix our domestic issues and then worry about policing the world, but why is it so damn important to the left for Iran to have nuclear power, when they won't even let us build a nuclear power plant in our own country?

Shouldn't we do the Iranians a favor and tell them they really should find a solar power company the government should prop up? Or maybe throw up some windmills on open land?

 

[krazykats]

Well if you let them have a nuclear plant then regular bombs can blow that place up from the inside out.

Clearly your not thinking.

 

[Rex Kwon Do]

State laws address this. Most states require that those on unemployment apply to at least one or two available jobs during the pay period (usually two weeks). Similar rules apply, if you decline available work that was offered to you, you forfeit your benefits.

One of the easiest things to get around on the face of Spaghetti Monster's green earth.

 

[fuzz77]

I don't really pay much attention to foreign policy, I'd rather fix our domestic issues and then worry about policing the world, but why is it so damn important to the left for Iran to have nuclear power, when they won't even let us build a nuclear power plant in our own country?

Shouldn't we do the Iranians a favor and tell them they really should find a solar power company the government should prop up? Or maybe throw up some windmills on open land?

I don't think that it's important that they have nuclear power...I'm pretty sure they will obtain it at some point regardless of our policy. It isn't "if", it's "when".
The question is "Do you want to know what they are doing and have inspectors on the inside or force them to buddy up with the Russians or Chinese or through other covert channels?"
I think it's foolish to think we can keep the nuclear genie in the bottle forever. Iran is a sovereign nation and will do what it thinks it needs to do.
You ready to go to war? Ready for another oil crisis when they attack oil tankers passing the Straights of Hormuz
Add the fact that Iran despite our rocky relations the past 40 years is still highly pro-western. And while Muslim, they are not radicalized to the extent of their neighbors. Women are beheaded for gowing out uncovered. Our issues have been with their government, not their people.
I just don't see what anyone gains by not talking and not negotiating.

 

[ram1955]

Before I retired as a school administrator, I called a friend whose family had fallen on hard times to work as a sub teacher. She was very good; reliable; kids responded well to her. She worked almost every day for about 3 months, then one afternoon told me she had to give up her job. Seems the " welfare" folks had told her due to her making the money was making (around $75 per day) her family was going to lose medical benefits (I think medical). So she quit. Really couldn't blame her. Why couldn't they have reduced her benefits instead....maybe 10% for at certain intervals of increase in income? She (and others like her) have no incentive to work.

In Malaysia where my wife is from. They give more money to welfare people who work. If they don't work, they get even less.

 

[Kerry Kat]

Good start up business would be installing Nuke shelters right now. Take advantage of the fear lol

 

[fuzz77]

Before I retired as a school administrator, I called a friend whose family had fallen on hard times to work as a sub teacher. She was very good; reliable; kids responded well to her. She worked almost every day for about 3 months, then one afternoon told me she had to give up her job. Seems the " welfare" folks had told her due to her making the money was making (around $75 per day) her family was going to lose medical benefits (I think medical). So she quit. Really couldn't blame her. Why couldn't they have reduced her benefits instead....maybe 10% for at certain intervals of increase in income? She (and others like her) have no incentive to work.

I agree that there should be a way to reduce benefits encouraging people to work what they can until they reach some level. Of course that opens a completely new can of worms.
I think there should be a base level of healthcare, food and shelter available to all. If you want to exist at that base level...have at it but it will be a spartan life. Any and all work raises you above that level.

 

[warrior-cat]

I agree that there should be a way to reduce benefits encouraging people to work what they can until they reach some level. Of course that opens a completely new can of worms.
I think there should be a base level of healthcare, food and shelter available to all. If you want to exist at that base level...have at it but it will be a spartan life. Any and all work raises you above that level.

I am not really sure what kind of can of worms people working would open up. The more people in the work force contributing by paying taxes and not sucking off of the government, the better off everyone would be or, did I misunderstand your meaning?

 

[DSmith21]

I agree that there should be a way to reduce benefits encouraging people to work what they can until they reach some level. Of course that opens a completely new can of worms.
I think there should be a base level of healthcare, food and shelter available to all. If you want to exist at that base level...have at it but it will be a spartan life. Any and all work raises you above that level.

So in your book, if someone doesn't care to work at all they should be GIVEN base level food, healthcare and housing. Even the communists made people work for those things. We have got over 90 million working age adults sitting on their butts thanks to thinking like that. Of course, those 90 million don't count as unemployed according to the government because they are not looking to work.

 

[fuzz77]

I am not really sure what kind of can of worms people working would open up. The more people in the work force contributing by paying taxes and not sucking off of the government, the better off everyone would be or, did I misunderstand your meaning?

People game the system, regardless of the system. New system, new games. Not saying it wouldn't be better than our current system...just that we would have to develop new methods to detect fraud.

 

[warrior-cat]

People game the system, regardless of the system. New system, new games. Not saying it wouldn't be better than our current system...just that we would have to develop new methods to detect fraud.

Sure they will always game the system the more we have working in the system, the less gamers we will have. No system is perfect but, some are better than others.

 

[fuzz77]

So in your book, if someone doesn't care to work at all they should be GIVEN base level food, healthcare and housing. Even the communists made people work for those things. We have got over 90 million working age adults sitting on their butts thanks to thinking like that. Of course, those 90 million don't count as unemployed according to the government because they are not looking to work.

There aren't 90 million on government aide. Hell, I think my wife is the only woman in our neighborhood that works. They don't need to work so they don't.

There are about 8 million unemployed with about 2.1 million of those being long term unemployed. There are about another 6 million who are part time workers who want to be full time. My next door neighbor's wife who doesn't work outside the home...she takes care of 3 kids so she may be insulted to say she doesn't work...isn't a problem. About 70 million of that 90 million are people like her.

There are 3.5 - 4 million homeless and about a third of those people are children. Many of the homeless are people with mental illnesses, many were in state hospitals until Reagan shut them down.

Yeah, we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't guarantee basic healthcare to its citizens. I think it's pretty sick that we allow that our citizens can work, then either they or one of their children become sick and they can then lose their home
I bought my home from a family who had declared bankruptcy after their 10 yr old child had contracted leukemia. He (the father) had just changed jobs and was without health insurance when they found out about their son. He had been previously self-employed and dropped his policy upon taking a new job. Sure, a dumb move on his part but should a family lose their home???

People who are capable but so lazy as to not try and better themselves are pathetic but that doesn't mean I want them dying of starvation or walking the streets. I also don't want them spreading illnesses or needlessly suffering.

Many on public aid as structured today are "stuck" because if they work at what they are qualified to do they lose the basics. People get sick, injured... people have to eat and they must have some type of shelter. Don't means test the very basics and then you allow people to incrementally improve their lot in life. They can take that minimum wage job and be better off, not at best, just the same or only very minimally better as long as they don't get sick.

 

[CatDaddy4daWin]

So in your book, if someone doesn't care to work at all they should be GIVEN base level food, healthcare and housing. Even the communists made people work for those things. We have got over 90 million working age adults sitting on their butts thanks to thinking like that. Of course, those 90 million don't count as unemployed according to the government because they are not looking to work.

so nearly 1/3 of the US population are unemployed lazy bums? Wow...that's not just rich, it's completely ignorant. You must be reading out of Texas school books. I also hear we didn't kill off all the indians, they self-deported.

 

[jamo0001]

90M working-age people? Do you have a citation for that?

 

[qwesley]

90M working-age people? Do you have a citation for that?

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Link shows the noticeable downturn in participation starting around 7 years ago. Also per Pew:

According to the October jobs report, more than 92 million Americans — 37% of the civilian population aged 16 and over — are neither employed nor unemployed, but fall in the category of “not in the labor force.” That means they aren’t working now but haven’t looked for work recently enough to be counted as unemployed. While that’s not quite a record — figures have been a bit higher earlier this year — the share of folks not in the labor force remains near all-time highs.

 

[jamo0001]

So the 92M includes people over 65? That's more believable.

90M of the 18-65 cohort would be, like, 55% of the age group.

Edit: that second link says the labor force participation rate is 63%.

 

[qwesley]

Yeah....that is why the CBO is projecting the $500b deficit to start growing in 2017. Just saw this related tweet. All bad trends but we people calling for free college and supplementing poor people moving to better neighborhoods.

@Forbes: The CBO projects that 80 million Americans will be Medicare-eligible by 2035, if current trends hold: http://t.co/AWMNzgK1rW

 

[jamo0001]

Medicare will be the albatross going forward for sure, which makes all the griping about farm subsidies and defense spending so telling. The proverbial speck in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the plank in your own.

 

[Willy4UK]

Medicare will be the albatross going forward for sure, which makes all the griping about farm subsidies and defense spending so telling. The proverbial speck in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the plank in your own.

No worries though! Social Security will be around. The way I see people's health in this country, I have no worries there. Can't wait to see diabetes and heart disease preserve my SS!

People keep eating and don't stop!!!!

 

[fuzz77]

No worries though! Social Security will be around. The way I see people's health in this country, I have no worries there. Can't wait to see diabetes and heart disease preserve my SS!

People keep eating and don't stop!!!!

I'm real interested to see how my employer's new health care plan that kicks in 2016 works. Your premiums will be based upon...at least to some extent, your own personal health. Smokers are already paying nearly $300/month more than non-smokers...a surcharge that they will refund to you if you quit smoking within the calendar year. But they have also implemented a program that tracks your physical activity awarding points that allow you to build your status from bronze, silver, gold and platinum with your premiums based upon your status. There is a pretty substantial points awards for having a "healthy" BMI, BP, Cholesterol...then there are points for physical activity. I think it's a great program with some damn good incentives for people to get healthy.

 

[sluggercatfan]

Will America ever have another one?...I am a Republican and I say no...the left has been successful in creating a welfare state thru illegal immigration and other methods and I don't think it can ever be reversed...I am an older American and fear what kind of country my kids and gkids are going to be living in 25 years...

 

[funKYcat75]

I'll go with yes.

Do I win?