Mass shooting at Old National Bank in Downtown Louisville

[I am stupid]

Except that it isn't. Texas has relaxed gun laws which Abbott seems to be proud of. Do those relaxed gun laws make it easier to commit mass shootings? It is certainly possible and might even be probable. You can disagree with the connection but its hardly as black and white as you make it seem with the statement "blatant lie"....

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www.star-telegram.com

Just to point out..... They relaxed gun laws in 2019. They changed it so people could carry firearms in church (if the church allowed it) and passed constitutional carry in 2021.


However in the same time they voted to increase school marshalls, fund more mental health counselors in schools, 100 million to make schools more secure, created panel to study kids mental health, created safety panel, created domestic terrorism task force, executive order to improve reporting of suspicious activity, LEO training, and made it a state jailable felony to lie on your background check form when trying to buy a gun

And just to clear things up from your article...
"Texans have already been able to carry rifles without a license."

I guess you are right though. I can imagine before that law was changed people would plan on murdering innocent people and kids but when they realized it was illegal to carry a firearm they changed their mind.

 

[UKWILDCAT2004]

I am just curious as to why when the Nashville and Louisville shooters committed their crimes their ties to left wing politics and connections are never discussed but the shooter from yesterday the first or second thing we learn is his right wing politics and discussed multiple times?


Also it was an off duty cop that was carrying that helped take down the shooter. Also known as a good guy who was carrying that helped take out the shooter and not someone who asked nicely for the shooter to stop.

 

[TCurtis75]

Just to point out..... They relaxed gun laws in 2019. They changed it so people could carry firearms in church (if the church allowed it) and passed constitutional carry in 2021.


However in the same time they voted to increase school marshalls, fund more mental health counselors in schools, 100 million to make schools more secure, created panel to study kids mental health, created safety panel, created domestic terrorism task force, executive order to improve reporting of suspicious activity, LEO training, and made it a state jailable felony to lie on your background check form when trying to buy a gun

And just to clear things up from your article...
"Texans have already been able to carry rifles without a license."

I guess you are right though. I can imagine before that law was changed people would plan on murdering innocent people and kids but when they realized it was illegal to carry a firearm they changed their mind.

They did do all those things but the expanded access to guns could be argued that it made mass shootings easier. I simply responded to a post that said that statement was a blatant lie when it in fact isn’t a blatant lie. I never even said if I felt like Texas made mass shootings easier. I acknowledged that there is a basis for that opinion/argument while also acknowledging there is a basis for an argument that the laws didn’t make it easier. The entire point was to point out it wasn’t a blatant lie. No more no less but don’t let those facts get in the way of your agenda.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Just to point out..... They relaxed gun laws in 2019. They changed it so people could carry firearms in church (if the church allowed it) and passed constitutional carry in 2021.


However in the same time they voted to increase school marshalls, fund more mental health counselors in schools, 100 million to make schools more secure, created panel to study kids mental health, created safety panel, created domestic terrorism task force, executive order to improve reporting of suspicious activity, LEO training, and made it a state jailable felony to lie on your background check form when trying to buy a gun

And just to clear things up from your article...
"Texans have already been able to carry rifles without a license."

I guess you are right though. I can imagine before that law was changed people would plan on murdering innocent people and kids but when they realized it was illegal to carry a firearm they changed their mind.

Interesting post. Thanks.

 

[Bill Cosby]

They did do all those things but the expanded access to guns could be argued that it made mass shootings easier. I simply responded to a post that said that statement was a blatant lie when it in fact isn’t a blatant lie. I never even said if I felt like Texas made mass shootings easier. I acknowledged that there is a basis for that opinion/argument while also acknowledging there is a basis for an argument that the laws didn’t make it easier. The entire point was to point out it wasn’t a blatant lie. No more no less but don’t let those facts get in the way of your agenda.

You’ve provided zero information to support your claim that “in fact it isn’t a blatant lie”.

Just like defense provided no information to support his claim. And cole provided no statistics to refute the unsupported claim.

You just used more words to say the exact same thing cole did.

 

[TCurtis75]

You’ve provided zero information to support your claim that “in fact it isn’t a blatant lie”.

Just like defense provided no information to support his claim. And cole provided no statistics to refute the unsupported claim.

You just used more words to say the exact same thing cole did.

Because it isn’t. Expanding gun access makes getting guns easier. Therefore it is a reasonable deduction to argue that will make shootings easier. I didn’t take a side in the argument and am not arguing for one side or the other. Simply stated that one could argue that the laws did do that. When there is a reasonable argument for both sides that means that one you don’t like can’t be a blatant lie.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Because it isn’t. Expanding gun access makes getting guns easier. Therefore it is a reasonable deduction to argue that will make shootings easier. I didn’t take a side in the argument and am not arguing for one side or the other. Simply stated that one could argue that the laws did do that. When there is a reasonable argument for both sides that means that one you don’t like can’t be a blatant lie.

They aren’t arguing about whether pizza or cheeseburgers taste better.

They are arguing about something that can be measured and proven. Claiming an unsupported statement is a “reasonable argument” for either side gets you nowhere. And again, it’s why most of us don’t want to give an inch. Get to the actual root causes, and stop labeling things “reasonable arguments” that are nothing but political statements.

 

[I am stupid]

Therefore it is a reasonable deduction to argue that will make shootings easier.

Just want to point out there is a difference in this statement and one saying it is probable that law makes it easier for mass shootings.

Last thing, I also disagree that the law allowing constitutional carry expands gun access. It doesn't. They already had access to it. They are just allowed to carry it without a permit now. Nothing made it easier for them to purchase or acquire a firearm.

If you want to say it *can* lead to more gun violence then I will agree, but that doesn't mean it will. It could also save lives...Doesn't mean it will though.

 

[TCurtis75]

They aren’t arguing about whether pizza or cheeseburgers taste better.

They are arguing about something that can be measured and proven. Claiming an unsupported statement is a “reasonable argument” for either side gets you nowhere. And again, it’s why most of us don’t want to give an inch. Get to the actual root causes, and stop labeling things “reasonable arguments” that are nothing but political statements.

Nothing in this post changes anything I said. The statement the laws made the shootings easier is a blatant lie isn’t accurate. It’s not that black and white and never will be. It is a reasonable argument to make whether you like it or not. You think you are perfectly reasonable to not give an inch when the left asks for red flag laws etc. Yet when democrats don’t want to give an inch, you find them unreasonable because they are on the opposite side of the argument from you. Until both sides are willing to give a couple of inches, nothing will change. From where I sit, the left is willing to give on some things while the right continues to offer thoughts and prayers without even considering a concession or two.

 

[TCurtis75]

Just want to point out there is a difference in this statement and one saying it is probable that law makes it easier for mass shootings.

Last thing, I also disagree that the law allowing constitutional carry expands gun access. It doesn't. They already had access to it. They are just allowed to carry it without a permit now. Nothing made it easier for them to purchase or acquire a firearm.

If you want to say it *can* lead to more gun violence then I will agree, but that doesn't mean it will. It could also save lives...Doesn't mean it will though.

So in other words, both sides have a reasonable argument. Thanks for acknowledging that what I’ve been saying the whole time.

 

[Deeeefense]

Blatant LIE.

Maybe you think making it possible for some untrained yahoo to own and carry a fire arm, in public without any requirements makes us safer but that view isn't shred by most people including law enforcement.

Recent laws made it even easier to own and carry guns in Texas

Governor Gregg Abbott—an enthusiastic promoter of gun ownership—signed 22 pieces of legislation that made it easier to buy, carry, and own guns in the state.

qz.com

Florida passes permitless carry law - WUFT News

The new law will allow people in Florida to carry a concealed weapon without any permit requirement. The law will go into effect on July 1.

www.wuft.org

 

[BankerCat12]

I am just curious as to why when the Nashville and Louisville shooters committed their crimes their ties to left wing politics and connections are never discussed but the shooter from yesterday the first or second thing we learn is his right wing politics and discussed multiple times?


Also it was an off duty cop that was carrying that helped take down the shooter. Also known as a good guy who was carrying that helped take out the shooter and not someone who asked nicely for the shooter to stop.

He was hispanic but had ties to white extremists...have they shown proof of this?

 

[stuway]

He was hispanic but had ties to white extremists...have they shown proof of this?

Who gives a shit what his politics are?? This is part of the f***ing problem. Everyone wants to argue politics. Mass shootings aren't and shouldn't be a political issue. It's a mental health issue and gun issue.

I don't have answers, I'm not that smart. I am smart enough to know until we make this about what it's really about we are all screwed

Rhe right and left have become so divisive and that's what they want. Let's all argue about politics and let the real issues and problems keep building

We have to unite as a country and demand our government do something about these shootings. Again, idk the answer but to me it's a gun issue and a mental health issue, let's start there and keep politics out of it....when the bullets fire and these assholes aim ai innocent people, they don't care about your politics, they are trying to kill you. Let's learn from them and put politics aside and make our country safer somehow

 

[Bill Cosby]

Nothing in this post changes anything I said. The statement the laws made the shootings easier is a blatant lie isn’t accurate. It’s not that black and white and never will be. It is a reasonable argument to make whether you like it or not. You think you are perfectly reasonable to not give an inch when the left asks for red flag laws etc. Yet when democrats don’t want to give an inch, you find them unreasonable because they are on the opposite side of the argument from you. Until both sides are willing to give a couple of inches, nothing will change. From where I sit, the left is willing to give on some things while the right continues to offer thoughts and prayers without even considering a concession or two.

If you cannot cite statistics or provide evidence, your argument is not reasonable. That’s all it boils down to.

 

[TCurtis75]

If you cannot cite statistics or provide evidence, your argument is not reasonable. That’s all it boils down to.

You are now simply arguing to argue and because you refuse to admit anything you disagree with. You think your side is always right regardless of who gets hurt or in these cases killed. You simply don’t care.

 

[UKWILDCAT2004]

He was hispanic but had ties to white extremists...have they shown proof of this?

Well no. I have only seen where he allegedly wrote these things on social media platforms. Wonder why we have never seen the manifesto from the Nashville shooter? Coincidence I'm sure.

 

[cole854]

Maybe you think making it possible for some untrained yahoo to own and carry a fire arm, in public without any requirements makes us safer but that view isn't shred by most people including law enforcement.

Recent laws made it even easier to own and carry guns in Texas

Governor Gregg Abbott—an enthusiastic promoter of gun ownership—signed 22 pieces of legislation that made it easier to buy, carry, and own guns in the state.

qz.com

Florida passes permitless carry law - WUFT News

The new law will allow people in Florida to carry a concealed weapon without any permit requirement. The law will go into effect on July 1.

www.wuft.org

Here is your exact statement: but in some cases like Texas and Florida pass laws that make it easier for these crimes to be carried out.

Please explain how these laws make it easier for these crimes to be carried out in relation to the episodes that we currently witness.

Perhaps you need to read the fine print...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanga...rmitless-concealed-carry-law/?sh=40fbca3b796b

There is not one shred of evidence outside of hypotheticals that support your "crimes will be easier" statement.

 

[cole854]

They did do all those things but the expanded access to guns could be argued that it made mass shootings easier.

Where is the expanded access to guns listed?

 

[catlanta33]

If some of these cities are going to go easier on criminals, I'm probably not going to get upset others see that as a time to arm themselves.

Many things unraveled at the beginning of the pandemic. One of those was actually letting people out of prison early - which had started prior to covid. Now we have activist judges/DA's that are softening on crime. While I think there are major issues with the prison system, it didn't change that these people that were once in prison were sent out to the streets. So, we the people become less safe and some of us would rather have something vs nothing should that unfortunate encounter ever happen.

But, I don't think this is black and white like some of you want to make it out to be. There are more guns in circulation than there are American citizens in this country. If you're relying on your government to solve this, you're probably going to be waiting forever.

 

[TCurtis75]

Where is the expanded access to guns listed?

I linked an article that talked about how Texas expanded access to guns. An argument can be made that that makes mass shootings easier. It is a perfectly reasonable deduction. It’s not as simple as your blatant lie statement makes it seem.

 

[UKWILDCAT2004]

Who gives a shit what his politics are?? This is part of the f***ing problem. Everyone wants to argue politics. Mass shootings aren't and shouldn't be a political issue. It's a mental health issue and gun issue.

I don't have answers, I'm not that smart. I am smart enough to know until we make this about what it's really about we are all screwed

Rhe right and left have become so divisive and that's what they want. Let's all argue about politics and let the real issues and problems keep building

We have to unite as a country and demand our government do something about these shootings. Again, idk the answer but to me it's a gun issue and a mental health issue, let's start there and keep politics out of it....when the bullets fire and these assholes aim ai innocent people, they don't care about your politics, they are trying to kill you. Let's learn from them and put politics aside and make our country safer somehow

The reason I brought this up is because the hypocrisy the left displays constantly. As soon as the shootings occur and they find out he is a conservative with ties to extreme right wing groups they constantly point that out. They make it out that all conservatives act and feel that way. As a conservative I can tell you that's not true. But when a left wing nut does it as in Nashville and Louisville that is oddly left out of their narrative. Why? They can accuse a whole group of something and it's ok? But can't release a manifesto of one left wing nut?

It's a mental health issue not a gun issue. If the laws that were in place where enforced this doesn't happen. My glock sits in its case every night and has yet to get up and shoot anyone.

 

[Bill Cosby]

You are now simply arguing to argue and because you refuse to admit anything you disagree with. You think your side is always right regardless of who gets hurt or in these cases killed. You simply don’t care.

No, I’m simply trying to explain to you your argument is not reasonable, because you don’t cite any evidence. You get mad when people won’t give an inch, but you are doing nothing to convince people they should compromise. You need to be able to understand just because people dismiss your emotional argument doesn’t mean they don’t care. It’s just an important topic that requires facts, not just feelings.

 

[Deeeefense]

It's a mental health issue not a gun issue. If the laws that were in place where enforced this doesn't happen.

Red flag laws are designed to prevent mentally unstable or violent prone individuals from having access to guns, however those laws have been opposed in several states like Texas. So to say enforcing laws in place would prevent some of these type of shootings would only be true in states where such laws exist, clearly in some they do not.

Contrary to what you might hear these laws are not abusive, they require sworn testimony and a count order to enforce. They are largely supported by law enforcement and 80% of the American public. Other countries have mentally ill and violent prone individuals as well, but none have type of mass killing problem that we have here.

 

[cole854]

Other countries have mentally ill and violent prone individuals as well, but none have type of mass killing problem that we have here.

Again...false.

https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2022/05/debunking-every-major-mass-shooting-myth/

 

[TCurtis75]

No, I’m simply trying to explain to you your argument is not reasonable, because you don’t cite any evidence. You get mad when people won’t give an inch, but you are doing nothing to convince people they should compromise. You need to be able to understand just because people dismiss your emotional argument doesn’t mean they don’t care. It’s just an important topic that requires facts, not just feelings.

For the umpteenth effing time, it is not my argument. You can say it is reasonable all you want but it is a reasonable deduction (with or without evidence) that expanded access to guns makes mass shootings easier. I don't see you taking cole to task with his statement since he didn't post facts. We both know that you didn't because he shares your political belief system. I'm not mad about anything. I simply call a spade a spade. You don't care. You have proven that over and over in all of your posts on the topic. You don't care about the kids in Uvalde, the victims in Louisville, or the ones at the mall in Texas. If you did, you wouldn't have you heels dug in like you have. You would be looking for things you are willing to give in on so that we can all get to some common ground. Instead, you are more worried about the "dems coming for your guns" than you are about the 8 year old kid who got her face blown off in the mall shooting. "Sally" doesn't get to go home to her parents tonight but I don't have to worry about a red flag law or waiting period so it's a fair trade off. Mah guns!!!! Mah freedoms!!!!

 

[cole854]

You can say it is reasonable all you want but it is a reasonable deduction (with or without evidence) that expanded access to guns makes mass shootings easier.

It is a reasonable deduction that expanded access to guns will make mass shootings less likely, given that there will be more law abiding citizens willing to protect themselves and others in the event of a left wing nut going crazy.

 

[Deeeefense]

Again...false.

https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2022/05/debunking-every-major-mass-shooting-myth/

The US accounts for 73 percent of 139 mass shootings that occurred in developed countries between 1998 to 2019, according to a new study.

Published in the International Journal of Comparative and Applied Criminal Justice, the study compared mass shootings in the US against developed and developing countries.

The findings also found that 62 percent of all 1,318 fatalities from mass shootings during the period happened in the US.

US accounted for 73 percent of global mass shootings

A study on mass shootings in developed countries showed that 101 out of 139 attacks took place in the US between 1998 and 2019, leading to 816 deaths.

www.trtworld.com

 

[catlanta33]

Contrary to what you might hear these laws are not abusive, they require sworn testimony and a count order to enforce. They are largely supported by law enforcement and 80% of the American public. Other countries have mentally ill and violent prone individuals as well, but none have type of mass killing problem that we have here.

I'd probably not take your word for it unless you happen to be someone that really knows and understands this process. It wouldn't be the first time a new law seems all good and well-intentioned that ends up being abused later.

What about someone just being pissed off and red flagging someone else? Can you see the possibility of abuse there?

 

[TCurtis75]

Again...false.

https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2022/05/debunking-every-major-mass-shooting-myth/

Again not false. His statement didn't say that mass shootings don't happen in other countries. No other country deals with it to the same extent that the US does especially when compared to similar countries.

This link says differently than yours.

On gun violence, the United States is an outlier | Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation

When we look exclusively at high-income countries and territories with populations of 10 million or more, the US ranks first for its high levels of gun violence.

www.healthdata.org

 

[Bill Cosby]

For the umpteenth effing time, it is not my argument. You can say it is reasonable all you want but it is a reasonable deduction (with or without evidence) that expanded access to guns makes mass shootings easier. I don't see you taking cole to task with his statement since he didn't post facts. We both know that you didn't because he shares your political belief system. I'm not mad about anything. I simply call a spade a spade. You don't care. You have proven that over and over in all of your posts on the topic. You don't care about the kids in Uvalde, the victims in Louisville, or the ones at the mall in Texas. If you did, you wouldn't have you heels dug in like you have. You would be looking for things you are willing to give in on so that we can all get to some common ground. Instead, you are more worried about the "dems coming for your guns" than you are about the 8 year old kid who got her face blown off in the mall shooting. "Sally" doesn't get to go home to her parents tonight but I don't have to worry about a red flag law or waiting period so it's a fair trade off. Mah guns!!!! Mah freedoms!!!!

Fairly obvious you can’t grasp the point. Just keep being emotional and this will continue to go nowhere. Rely on facts and logic, and maybe people will listen.

 

[UKWILDCAT2004]

Red flag laws are designed to prevent mentally unstable or violent prone individuals from having access to guns, however those laws have been opposed in several states like Texas. So to say enforcing laws in place would prevent some of these type of shootings would only be true in states where such laws exist, clearly in some they do not.

Contrary to what you might hear these laws are not abusive, they require sworn testimony and a count order to enforce. They are largely supported by law enforcement and 80% of the American public. Other countries have mentally ill and violent prone individuals as well, but none have type of mass killing problem that we have here.

Red flag laws are/were fine until the left wanted to take advantage of them and make it where all someone had to do was make one phone call cause they were mad at someone and that person would lose their 2nd amendment right. They wanted no investigation just automatic removal of guns. Left wanted the ability to be judge, jury, and executioner. They wanted the red flag law written in such a way if someone made a pro Trump post they could literally make one phone call and a person could lose their weapons. Or a s
Scorned spouse could make a false claim and do the same thing. The left couldn't and wouldn't compromise on this like most things. It has to be 100% their way. Hence why we are the position we are.

We can just agree to disagree on this because you aren't compromising.

 

[Deeeefense]

Again...false.

https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2022/05/debunking-every-major-mass-shooting-myth/

 

[TCurtis75]

It is a reasonable deduction that expanded access to guns will make mass shootings less likely, given that there will be more law abiding citizens willing to protect themselves and others in the event of a left wing nut going crazy.

Which I have repeatedly said there is a reasonable argument for both sides. In every single post, I have said that both arguments can be made.

 

[TCurtis75]

Fairly obvious you can’t grasp the point. Just keep being emotional and this will continue to go nowhere. Rely on facts and logic, and maybe people will listen.

It is you not grasping the point. I hope your guns keep you warm and comfy at night while others just hope their families make it home from work, school, or the mall.

 

[Deeeefense]

I'd probably not take your word for it unless you happen to be someone that really knows and understands this process. It wouldn't be the first time a new law seems all good and well-intentioned that ends up being abused later.

What about someone just being pissed off and red flagging someone else? Can you see the possibility of abuse there?

States like Florida that have red flag laws have not experienced any significant abuse.

Yes someone could get pissed off and accuse someone of being a lunatic. That's why they have to go to court, make a statement under oath, and have a judge adjudicate the accusation, while the accused has a right to defend themselves. It's a formal legal process not a he said she said.

The rhetorical question is in worse possible case. Which is the greater evil, having someone be without their guns until proven mentally competent or another mass shooting?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Maybe you think making it possible for some untrained yahoo to own and carry a fire arm, in public without any requirements makes us safer but that view isn't shred by most people including law enforcement.

Recent laws made it even easier to own and carry guns in Texas

Governor Gregg Abbott—an enthusiastic promoter of gun ownership—signed 22 pieces of legislation that made it easier to buy, carry, and own guns in the state.

qz.com

Florida passes permitless carry law - WUFT News

The new law will allow people in Florida to carry a concealed weapon without any permit requirement. The law will go into effect on July 1.

www.wuft.org

Are we still talking about murder and mass shootings or are we now talking about general gun safety? Is the thought that a murderer with better training will be safer or that murders won’t murder because they don’t have a permit to carry?

 

[BC_Wader]

The US accounts for 73 percent of 139 mass shootings that occurred in developed countries between 1998 to 2019, according to a new study.

Published in the International Journal of Comparative and Applied Criminal Justice, the study compared mass shootings in the US against developed and developing countries.

The findings also found that 62 percent of all 1,318 fatalities from mass shootings during the period happened in the US.

US accounted for 73 percent of global mass shootings

A study on mass shootings in developed countries showed that 101 out of 139 attacks took place in the US between 1998 and 2019, leading to 816 deaths.

www.trtworld.com

So is it murders by firearms that only matter? Most developed or developing countries don't have the access to firearms like we do. They have mass killings as well, it's just that they use other means. Regardless, it's all carried out by evil, unstable individuals.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Who gives a shit what his politics are?? This is part of the f***ing problem. Everyone wants to argue politics. Mass shootings aren't and shouldn't be a political issue. It's a mental health issue and gun issue.

I don't have answers, I'm not that smart. I am smart enough to know until we make this about what it's really about we are all screwed

Rhe right and left have become so divisive and that's what they want. Let's all argue about politics and let the real issues and problems keep building

We have to unite as a country and demand our government do something about these shootings. Again, idk the answer but to me it's a gun issue and a mental health issue, let's start there and keep politics out of it....when the bullets fire and these assholes aim ai innocent people, they don't care about your politics, they are trying to kill you. Let's learn from them and put politics aside and make our country safer somehow

It also appears to be a political issue. When the mentally ill and suicidal decide to make a political terrorist-like statement by murdering others, political rhetoric probably plays a role (reasonably likely by TCurtis’s rationale).

So, make Pelosi into an evil being and maybe some nut believes it. Make Christian schools into a threat and some nut believes it. Make a Supreme Court Justice … and so on and so on. Argue about guns all day and maybe some suicidal creep decides to make a point, as well. Political rhetoric plays a role.

Tell someone with whom you disagree that you wish the very worst to happen to them and that you would not waste your piss if they were on fire and you probably contribute to the problem, rather than play a role in the solution.

 

[Dore95]

It also appears to be a political issue. When the mentally ill and suicidal decide to make a political terrorist-like statement by murdering others, political rhetoric probably plays a role (reasonably likely by TCurtis’s rationale).

So, make Pelosi into an evil being and maybe some nut believes it. Make Christian schools into a threat and some nut believes it. Make a Supreme Court Justice … and so on and so on. Argue about guns all day and maybe some suicidal creep decides to make a point, as well. Political rhetoric plays a role.

Tell someone with whom you disagree that you wish the very worst to happen to them and that you would not waste your piss if they were on fire and you probably contribute to the problem, rather than play a role in the solution.

I think you are right. And social media is a real enabler of this behavior because it facilitates these arguments you're talking about. If you go back in time before the internet, there was much less ability to get worked up over these things.

 

[catlanta33]

States like Florida that have red flag laws have not experienced any significant abuse.

Yes someone could get pissed off and accuse someone of being a lunatic. That's why they have to go to court, make a statement under oath, and have a judge adjudicate the accusation, while the accused has a right to defend themselves. It's a formal legal process not a he said she said.

The rhetorical question is in worse possible case. Which is the greater evil, having someone be without their guns until proven mentally competent or another mass shooting?

What do you consider "significant" abuse? I see where 10% of those red flag don't agree with the outcome.

So to red flag someone, you have to start the process in at the courthouse? What happens if they need to be red flagged after hours or over the weekend?