Would Bill Bilechick still be a HOF coach without Brady?

[Creed Bratton]

With Brady in the line up he is 219-64 in the regular season and 30-11 in the playoffs with 6 Super Bowls but without Brady he is 70-77 in the regular season and 1-2 in the playoffs. Without Brady I don't think he has a HOF career and IMO it goes to show how crossing paths can change the trajectory of a career.

 

[RSUK5022]

You don’t think he’d fine a decent QB in between 2000 and now if Brady didn’t exist?

 

[oddis500]

Yes. Not even a question.

 

[dabears22]

He’s done pretty good without Brady in the few years that he wasn’t so I would say yeah probably, may of only had 3 Super Bowls instead

 

[Creed Bratton]

You don’t think he’d fine a decent QB in between 2000 and now if Brady didn’t exist?

He's had Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Mac Jones, Bernie Kosar and Cam Newton so he's had decent QB's. A lot of coaches can win some games but it doesn't make them a HOF coach. The fact he is sub 500 without Brady says a lot to me because he didn't consistently win on a high level before Brady and thus far hasn't since either. His best season without Brady is 11-5 twice and his only other winning season was 10-7 this season with no Super Bowls. If he goes on to win on a level that he did without Brady or even close to that I could change my mind but right now I think Brady made Belichick not the other way around.

 

[Creed Bratton]

He’s done pretty good without Brady in the few years that he wasn’t so I would say yeah probably, may of only had 3 Super Bowls instead

7-9 and 10-7 since Brady left isn't HOF worthy.

 

[dabears22]

7-9 and 10-7 since Brady left isn't HOF worthy.

No but several QBs have been pretty successful filling for a hurt Brady in the past and Mac Jones is coming along nicely. His system is QB friendly but he was fortunate to have the same guy for 20 years. If Tom would have retire 8-9 years ago from NE, I believe Bill would of found somebody to win at at least 1 SB with in that time span.

 

[Bereacat420]

7-9 and 10-7 since Brady left isn't HOF worthy.

7-9 with cam in a new offense that he didn't fit. Also with several defensive starters opting out due to covid. Then 10-7 with a rookie QB. They got off to a bad start in '21 then turned it around and was one of the hottest teams in football before injuries slowed them down.
Brady is the Goat but Belichick always had a great D and great game plan. This year his D was great in the middle of the season. Next year as Mac gets more familiar with everything they will make a leap forward

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I think probably so but I definitely do not think it's a slam dunk by any means. In fact I doubt be wins that first Superbowl if bledsoe stays healthy

 

[cidsports]

Would Brady have been an NFL QB without New England and Bilechek drafting him?

 

[UKWildcats1987]

I think probably so but I definitely do not think it's a slam dunk by any means. In fact I doubt be wins that first Superbowl if bledsoe stays healthy

Or if they didn't cheat and know all the Rams offensive plays.

 

[3632]

7-9 and 10-7 since Brady left isn't HOF worthy.

In fairness to him, Cam Newton is a makeshift guy at this point in his career and he played with a rookie this season. Brady clearly helped make the Patriots but who is to say that his approach to the game and things he learned playing in that organization didn't help make him as well. He was a constant but the organization still found ways to build things that work around him for most of the time he was there. That's not easy at all in the NFL, which has the firmest salary cap.

 

[TuckyFB]

Belichick was the HC for the Browns w/ a 36-44 record and only one playoff appearance. That's pretty good for Browns standards, but not HOF worthy and then lands the NE job as soon as Brady is drafted. I would say no he wouldn't still be a HOF coach without Brady.

Edit: But you could say that about any coach in history. For example, would Chuck Noll be a HOF coach if it weren't for Bradshaw? I would also say no.

 

[3632]

I would also point out in favor of Belicheck, while the Patriots had a couple of 'dudes' over all of those years, they often did it by valuing cerebral guys that could handle and deal with the adjustments, etc. that the coaches there would come up with. They were hardly littered with guys that everybody was clamoring for. They would mix a guy or two in here or there but they didn't line up and wow you with personnel very often. And it probably says something that they had a coach they needed to draft for their mental capacity as much or more than the rest of what they were.

 

[Eccain01]

As a patriots fan I’d say no. People forget that the patriots were 0-2 when Brady took over coming off of a 5 win season lol. He changed the trajectory of that franchise

 

[Catatonic40509]

Belly check drafted Brady when no one else wanted him out of college, sent his assistant to scout and grade Brady and actually wanted to take him earlier, so I’m sure if Brady would have retired he would have found someone else good enough to keep him a no doubt hall of fame guy. Brady gets and deserves credit for who he became but ole bill gets some of that credit for having eye for and developing talent

 

[NoDef]

How many team's don't go through some rebuilding years? He took the Patriots back to the playoffs two years removed from Brady without an elite QB.

 

[thepip]

No, could be a failure just like he was with the Browns.

 

[JoeSwag]

Brady didn’t play defense. This isn’t the NBA where one guy does it all.

Belichick always drafted late in the draft and got undervalued guys in free agency and made a contender every year. I guess we are just going to gloss over Belichick’s Giants defense?

Brady and Belichick are the MJ and Phil Jackson argument. Chicken or the egg. They both built off each other. I favor Brady because Brady is actually on the field and he made an entire losing franchise like Tampa believe they could win and they did.

 

[3632]

As a patriots fan I’d say no. People forget that the patriots were 0-2 when Brady took over coming off of a 5 win season lol. He changed the trajectory of that franchise

By Brady's own admission, he was managing games and just not screwing it up for their defense his first few seasons. He was simply winning games by not losing them.

 

[TheBigBlueSpectacle]

Or if they didn't cheat and know all the Rams offensive plays.

Them and the cheating colleges - duke, UNC, UL, LSU, Kansas, Arizona, Auburn, etc doing get enough mention for their various forms of cheating. There should always be N asterisk next to their name for any mention in existence

 

[JBHolmesfan]

7-9 with cam in a new offense that he didn't fit. Also with several defensive starters opting out due to covid. Then 10-7 with a rookie QB. They got off to a bad start in '21 then turned it around and was one of the hottest teams in football before injuries slowed them down.
Brady is the Goat but Belichick always had a great D and great game plan. This year his D was great in the middle of the season. Next year as Mac gets more familiar with everything they will make a leap forward

He went 7-9 with the 2020 version of Cam Newton, not the 2015 version. Big difference.

 

[Eccain01]

By Brady's own admission, he was managing games and just not screwing it up for their defense his first few seasons. He was simply winning games by not losing them.

Well he was doing better than the previous guy lol and he won 3 championships. Don’t see many other guys doing that.

 

[TeoJ]

He went 7-9 with the 2020 version of Cam Newton, not the 2015 version. Big difference.

I thought Bill could winning any QB he picked.

 

[3632]

Well he was doing better than the previous guy lol and he won 3 championships. Don’t see many other guys doing that.

I wasn’t knocking Brady. That guy is unreal. Just pointing that it wasn’t like he came in dominating or anything like Mahomes and some of these guys. In his docuseries he even says ‘look I spent those first few years as a game manager not losing games because our d was so good’. As grumpy as he is who made that d so good? Belichick. As others have posted I mean the reality is they both gave to each other.

 

[UKPRO]

I believe you can say this about every coach in history. Would they be hall of fame without their best player. It’s kind of a silly question. A coach isn’t even a coach without their players. That’s why it is called a team.

 

[Nbacats]

He's had Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Mac Jones, Bernie Kosar and Cam Newton so he's had decent QB's. A lot of coaches can win some games but it doesn't make them a HOF coach. The fact he is sub 500 without Brady says a lot to me because he didn't consistently win on a high level before Brady and thus far hasn't since either. His best season without Brady is 11-5 twice and his only other winning season was 10-7 this season with no Super Bowls. If he goes on to win on a level that he did without Brady or even close to that I could change my mind but right now I think Brady made Belichick not the other way around.

Cam Newton was most definitely not a good QB by the time he got to BB, he was in fact one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL that season.

Bernie Kosar had like one good year in Cleveland while BB was there, and he was so bad after that they traded him midseason and he proceeded to be trash everywhere else he went.

He had Drew Bledsoe for one season + 2 games of 2001 before he got injured, and Bledsoe was already in decline at just 28 years old when BB got to NE.

That 2008 NE team went 10-5 with Matt Cassell at QB and 2012 team went 3-1 with Jimmy G and Jacoby Brissett at QB.

The argument should be as follows: Would BB be a HOF coach if he hadn't teamed up with Robert Kraft?

 

[Nbacats]

Would Brady have been an NFL QB without New England and Bilechek drafting him?

View embedded media

Would Brady have ever even gotten a shot if Bledsoe hadn't gotten hurt?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I wasn’t knocking Brady. That guy is unreal. Just pointing that it wasn’t like he came in dominating or anything like Mahomes and some of these guys. In his docuseries he even says ‘look I spent those first few years as a game manager not losing games because our d was so good’. As grumpy as he is who made that d so good? Belichick. As others have posted I mean the reality is they both gave to each other.

Imo he didn't come in dominating because the staff didn't have tons of confidence in him. He was after all a 6th round pick, so that made sense. But he delivered exactly what was needed especially in the clutch

 

[UKWildcats1987]

Them and the cheating colleges - duke, UNC, UL, LSU, Kansas, Arizona, Auburn, etc doing get enough mention for their various forms of cheating. There should always be N asterisk next to their name for any mention in existence

That Rams team was amazing. No way they forgot how to play offense randomly. Then spy gate comes out years later and the the NFL destroyed the evidence and we know what went down. A courageous performance by Warner and the Rams to tie the game late considering the odds were stacked against them.

 

[JoeSwag]

The only thing more overblown and ridiculous than “Spygate” is “deflate gate.” Teams have stolen signs for years and figured out what means what. You can know a team is going to run it but you still have to stop it. Even then, the story about the Rams walkthrough is bogus.

“Yet in May of 2008, the Boston Herald offered an apology to the Patriots. It was quite direct:

While the Boston Herald based its Feb. 2, 2008, report on sources that it believed to be credible, we now know that this report was false, and that no tape of the walkthrough ever existed.
Prior to the publication of its Feb. 2, 2008, article, the Boston Herald neither possessed nor viewed a tape of the Rams’ walkthrough before Super Bowl XXXVI, nor did we speak to anyone who had. We should not have published the allegation in the absence of firmer verification.
The Boston Herald regrets the damage done to the team by publication of the allegation, and sincerely apologizes to its readers and to the New England Patriots’ owners, players, employees and fans for our error.

Tomase said he made a “devastating leap of logic” in his report, and he wrote his own explanation:

“First and foremost, this is about a writer breaking one of the cardinal rules of journalism. I failed to keep challenging what I had been told. … I had repeatedly heard that this walkthrough had been taped, and from people I trusted. Eventually I accepted it as fact and stopped questioning the assertion. … I should not have written the story without seeing the tape or getting multiple, firsthand confirmations from members of the organization.”

The Pats didn’t win six Super Bowls because of “sign stealing” or a football having slightly less air in it.

 

[Girthang]

He's had Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Mac Jones, Bernie Kosar and Cam Newton so he's had decent QB's. A lot of coaches can win some games but it doesn't make them a HOF coach. The fact he is sub 500 without Brady says a lot to me because he didn't consistently win on a high level before Brady and thus far hasn't since either. His best season without Brady is 11-5 twice and his only other winning season was 10-7 this season with no Super Bowls. If he goes on to win on a level that he did without Brady or even close to that I could change my mind but right now I think Brady made Belichick not the other way around.

I agree with all of this, but I also don't think it's just about Bradyflate and Belicheatnik. The GM and franchise have a lot to do with it.

Brady's calm, his brain, and his ability to work within a system (political and athletic) were the vehicle. The management provided the other pieces and the fuel.

 

[Girthang]

By Brady's own admission, he was managing games and just not screwing it up for their defense his first few seasons. He was simply winning games by not losing them.

If more QBs like Cam Newton and Jay Cutler kept their mouths shut and managed games, just not screwing it up for their defense, they also would have won more games. It's apparently really hard to set your ego aside at that level or more QBs would do it.

 

[JoeSwag]

A few examples of Belichick’s ability to get undervalued talent.

Drafted Edelman as a WR who had never played the position and only knew how to be a QB. Edelman became a key part of three Super Bowls.

Traded up to get Gronk in the draft after Gronk had missed his entire college season with a broken back.

Draft- Gostkowski, David Givens,

Free agency- Joe Andruzzi, Rodney Harrison, Wes Welker, Rob Ninkovich, Chris Hogan

There’s a ton of examples we could give of guys who were awesome with the Pats and then just vanished once they left.

 

[Girthang]

How would the patriots have done if they were In a more competitive division?

 

[Girthang]

A few examples of Belichick’s ability to get undervalued talent.

Drafted Edelman as a WR who had never played the position and only knew how to be a QB. Edelman became a key part of three Super Bowls.

Traded up to get Gronk in the draft after Gronk had missed his entire college season with a broken back.

Draft- Gostkowski, David Givens,

Free agency- Joe Andruzzi, Rodney Harrison, Wes Welker, Rob Ninkovich, Chris Hogan

There’s a ton of examples we could give of guys who were awesome with the Pats and then just vanished once they left.

GMs are always heavily involved in the draft. Who was the GM there for all of those years?

 

[Perrin75]

We do know that Brady has won a Super Bowl without Belichick but Belichick has never made it as far as the conference championship without him.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

A few examples of Belichick’s ability to get undervalued talent.

Drafted Edelman as a WR who had never played the position and only knew how to be a QB. Edelman became a key part of three Super Bowls.

Traded up to get Gronk in the draft after Gronk had missed his entire college season with a broken back.

Draft- Gostkowski, David Givens,

Free agency- Joe Andruzzi, Rodney Harrison, Wes Welker, Rob Ninkovich, Chris Hogan

There’s a ton of examples we could give of guys who were awesome with the Pats and then just vanished once they left.

How did Edelman and Welker do after leaving the Patriots? Now look at all the random white dudes the pats plugged in at wr and always produced about the same.

 

[kats23]

I don’t think Brady would have become Brady without Belichick and I don’t think Belichick would have become Belichick without Brady. Here’s the thing I’ve always said. Brady developed into a great QB but he wasn’t a great QB when he took over for Bledsoe. I wouldn’t even say he was a great QB his first few Super Bowl wins. He was still, for the most part, a systematic QB. He was accurate, didn’t make mistakes, and had a great defense to rely on.

So I think you have to give a lot of credit to Belichick for developing that and the corners they cut to help win games (spygate, deflategate) probably didn’t hurt either

 

[TBCat]

Belichick was the HC for the Browns w/ a 36-44 record and only one playoff appearance. That's pretty good for Browns standards, but not HOF worthy and then lands the NE job as soon as Brady is drafted. I would say no he wouldn't still be a HOF coach without Brady.

Edit: But you could say that about any coach in history. For example, would Chuck Noll be a HOF coach if it weren't for Bradshaw? I would also say no.

This. Every hall of fame coach had to at some point find their Tom Brady. The NFL is a QB's league. Besides Brady was a 7th round pick. Let's not pretend that Bilechick doesn't deserve some credit in seeing something in him that every other team didn't. He didn't win the lottery, he drafted a guy that most believed didn't belong in the league.