Why was the defense so bad last season?

[fatguy87]

No, they go hand in hand. Cal's philosophy has always been "funnel the guards into the shot blockers" so when we didn't have an Anthony Davis, he should've coached his guards a different way of defense. You're right but doesn't mean we aren't also.

That wasn't even necessary in the past for Cal to have effective defenses.

Jorts and Bam were the starting centers for great and even elite defensive units and neither were above the rim, dominant forces blocking shots at the rim.

We had a defensive savant in 2021 in Jackson and a darn good shot blocking big in Richards in 2020. The 2021 team finished 35th while the 2020 team finished 52nd in defensive efficiency.

The game has changed, and Cal's coaching has yet to adapt. Last year's team certainly could have had inferior defensive players, but the Cal of the 2010's would have had that group in the top 50 of defensive efficiency easily.

 

[saxonburgcat]

Payne and Robic replaced by guys like Chin and Martin.

That seems like the answer. Cal is a coach who is only as good as his assistants. At least that is my conclusion.

 

[Butters' Dad]

I will tell you why but I'm not sure anyone will take me seriously. Defense is tougher than offense and requires far more cooperation on the floor. So the better you know the guy next to you, the better you're going to be defensively as a team. So it takes years to build a consistent defense. You have to know each other intimately because you will face situations in games that you can't simulate in practice and you have to know how the guy next you is going to react to it. This is one reason experience beats out young talent pretty consistently.

 

[megablue]

90% of the people will say coaching.

Truth is, we just had poor defensive players. That's all.

It's the same exact reason we were so efficient on offense. We had a group of insanely talented players on one side of the ball that were not good on defense.

Many, many times it seems the better offensive players are weaker on defense.
Not just here at UK … it is everywhere.
It will be interesting to see how Pope blends his players to be solid on both ends. That is his biggest challenge, I think.

 

[yabbadabbadoo]

No accountability

 

[Dncmaxwell]

The NBA didn't seem to mind, drafting two of those defenders #3 and #8 in the draft.

Let's cut the BS and call it for what it was: our bad defenders never improved defensively all season. Not even a fraction.

That's ultimately coaching.

Reed and Dilly were NOT drafted for their defense man, get real…go back and watch their defense. Off balll Reed was good, but man, those guys were rough to watch, nd didn’t have a good defensive big to back them up, except occasionally Ugo.


Everything comes back to coaching, but acting like they were drafted as good defenders isn’t actually cutting the BS.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Reed and Dilly were NOT drafted for their defense man, get real…go back and watch their defense. Off balll Reed was good, but man, those guys were rough to watch, nd didn’t have a good defensive big to back them up, except occasionally Ugo.


Everything comes back to coaching, but acting like they were drafted as good defenders isn’t actually cutting the BS.

Nah. Your response is illogical.

Show me where I said they were drafted because of their defense. You can't, because I didn't say that. Then you doubled down and made your entire response based on your lack of reading comprehension of my post. What a miserably awful response on your part, man.

Logically, your response doesn't even make sense. Why would I argue that bad defenders were drafted because of their defense?

 

[Fox2monk]

90% of the people will say coaching.

Truth is, we just had poor defensive players. That's all.

It's the same exact reason we were so efficient on offense. We had a group of insanely talented players on one side of the ball that were not good on defense.

I agree somewhat but coaching played a large part of why it was so bad. They were good enough to be decent enough on defense to make a run. When you don’t get taught basic defensive principles it’s hard. We don’t know how to guard a screen nor pressure on the outside. Then we don’t ever go zone which is what 90% of coaches would do with a team like that.

 

[Fox2monk]

Payne and Robic replaced by guys like Chin and Martin.

Payne sucked man, I think he was good at his role here and he obviously knew how to teach big men how to play ok but his performance as a head coach really makes me think about what all he was good at.

 

[Cleatortoises]

But this highlights the problem right here.

If you want to blame Cal for the poor defense, then you have to credit him for what the offense was able to accomplish.

You either take the stance that A) the coaching plays a huge part in this.........or B) it doesn't and it's mainly based on players.

What you can't do is say Cal is to blame for the defense but then not give credit to him for the offense. That's not logical.

You're correct. It's been awhile since we had a good defensive team under Cal. The main reason we have sucked on defense for so long is the lack of interior presence.

Easy to have a great defense when you had Anthony Davis swatting back every shot.

I'm of the mindset that had a whole hell of a lot more to do with things than Cal's coaching approach.

We had good defense when we had good defensive players. It's funny how that works.

People give way too much credit and way too much blame to coaches.

Coaching.
I don't give him credit for offense. We saw him take over the offense near the end of the year, and it went into the tank.
That is why Welsch was leaving even when 🐄 was thought to be retuning.
We had reverted to his style.
He loves the rock fight.

 

[chroix]

Payne sucked man, I think he was good at his role here and he obviously knew how to teach big men how to play ok but his performance as a head coach really makes me think about what all he was good at.

Yeah I liked KP too but you do have to wonder how much of his reputation wasn’t because he had kids like AD, KAT and Cousins to point to as layers he’d “developed” like those dudes weren’t going to be top three picks anywhere they went. Jorts improved a ton but feels like that was work ethic more than the program investing heavily in him.

 

[megablue]

It seems many only care about defense when we lose. You have to focus and care about defense because you want to prevent losing. Defense can always be more consistent than offense … and it has to be. I think Pope and staff know this.

 

[crestcat]

Good defensive players are going to get burned in a bad defensive scheme

 

[cat888]

Injuries and Players missing games, especially in the frontcourt coupled with the young players took away teamwork needed to play good defense every game.

 

[UKNothinButNet]

Obviously did us in. Was it just lazy coaching, lazy players, or some other X factor? Its not like the kids were slow or unathletic, so what was it?

Easy, because we didn’t have a coach, we had an overpaid handler.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Coaching.
I don't give him credit for offense. We saw him take over the offense near the end of the year, and it went into the tank.
That is why Welsch was leaving even when 🐄 was thought to be retuning.
We had reverted to his style.
He loves the rock fight.

We had top efficient offenses way before Welsh even got here.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Many, many times it seems the better offensive players are weaker on defense.
Not just here at UK … it is everywhere.
It will be interesting to see how Pope blends his players to be solid on both ends. That is his biggest challenge, I think.

I think maybe another part of all of this is sometimes when you expend that much energy and focus on the offense, the defense lacks

I agree. We've seen time after time after time "good" teams get bounced quite early in the NCAA tournament because they are extremely one sided either to the offense or defense. It looks like we've got a group of players coming in that might have the right balance so I'm curious to see how we do.

 

[The_Answer1313]

I agree somewhat but coaching played a large part of why it was so bad. They were good enough to be decent enough on defense to make a run. When you don’t get taught basic defensive principles it’s hard. We don’t know how to guard a screen nor pressure on the outside. Then we don’t ever go zone which is what 90% of coaches would do with a team like that.

I think that coaching would have helped at the margins. Is there another coach out there that could have had the defense play somewhat better? Sure. But we finished 109th in def efficiency. How higher could another coach have gotten that? 80th? 70th?

I just think it's an interesting discussion to have. Just how much weight does one place on what a coach can do.

But at UK where the seasons are defined by final fours and national championships, I just don't think there was any coach out there getting that particular team to play defense at a level to compete for that.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

We had top efficient offenses way before Welsh even got here.

Nah.

When Welch was here, we ranked #6.

Here's the years before he arrived:

2023: #36
2022: #10
2021: #202
2020 (the fabled Maxey team): #44
2019: #22
2018: #61
2017: #16 (he had Bam, Fox, and Monk, and still couldn't crack the top 15)
2016: #11 (Ulis and Murray, and still not a top 10 offense)
2015: #11
2014: #32
2013: #41
2012: #4
2011: #16
2010: #17

That's an average ranking of #35 in the nation. Take out the 2012 and 2021 teams for fairness sake and Cal's other 13 UK teams still only ranked #25 in offensive efficiency.

That's not elite. Calipari only had a top 10 offensive efficiency team three times in his UK career.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Nah.

When Welch was here, we ranked #6.

Here's the years before he arrived:

2023: #36
2022: #10
2021: #202
2020 (the fabled Maxey team): #44
2019: #22
2018: #61
2017: #16 (he had Bam, Fox, and Monk, and still couldn't crack the top 15)
2016: #11 (Ulis and Murray, and still not a top 10 offense)
2015: #11
2014: #32
2013: #41
2012: #4
2011: #16
2010: #17

That's an average ranking of #35 in the nation. Take out the 2012 and 2021 teams for fairness sake and Cal's other 13 UK teams still only ranked #25 in offensive efficiency.

That's not elite. Calipari only had a top 10 offensive efficiency team three times in his UK career.

Having a top 25 offense is certainly good enough. You pair those with top 25 defenses and you are competing for national titles and final fours.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Having a top 25 offense is certainly good enough. You pair those with top 25 defenses and you are competing for national titles and final fours.

The problem is that his defenses started sucking too in the last few years:

2024: #211
2023: #103
2022: #35
2021: #110
2020: #59

You see why he's gone now?

Why are you still acting like he could coach? Clearly, the five year trend shows his offensive and defensive efficiencies were gutter level.

You want to compete for Final Fours? Get your offensive and defensive efficiencies BOTH in the top 20.

 

[fatguy87]

I just think it's an interesting discussion to have. Just how much weight does one place on what a coach can do.

But at UK where the seasons are defined by final fours and national championships, I just don't think there was any coach out there getting that particular team to play defense at a level to compete for that.

I think utter disregard for turnover production is a folly in approach that could have been easily addressed and exploited by practically any other coach, especially given Reed's preternatural ability.

 

[megablue]

The problem is that his defenses started sucking too in the last few years:

2024: #211
2023: #103
2022: #35
2021: #110
2020: #59

You see why he's gone now?

Why are you still acting like he could coach? Clearly, the five year trend shows his offensive and defensive efficiencies were gutter level.

You want to compete for Final Fours? Get your offensive and defensive efficiencies BOTH in the top 20.

There was only ONE team whose offense and defense were both ranked in the TOP 25 last season.
Any guesses as to who that team was ??

	POINTS SCORED		W	L		POINTS ALLOWED		W	L
1​	ALABAMA	90.1	25​	12​		HOUSTON	57.6​	32​	5​	1​
2​	KENTUCKY	89.0	23​	10​		SAINT MARY'S (CA)	59.2​	26​	8​	2​
3​	ARIZONA	87.1	27​	9​		VIRGINIA	59.7​	23​	11​	3​
4​	WRIGHT STATE	86.5	18​	14​		IOWA STATE	61.5​	29​	8​	4​
5​	SAMFORD	86.1	29​	6​		MARIST	62.2​	18​	13​	5​
6​	FLORIDA	85.6	24​	12​		McNEESE STATE	62.2​	30​	4​	6​
7​	INDIANA STATE	84.8	32​	7​		VERMONT	63.0​	28​	7​	7​
8​	GONZAGA	84.5	27​	8​		WAGNER	63.1​	17​	16​	8​
9​	HIGH POINT	83.9	27​	9​		UCONN	63.4​	37​	3​	9​
10​	ILLINOIS	83.4	29​	9​		MOREHEAD STATE	63.4​	29​	9​	10​
11​	JAMES MADISON	83.2	32​	4​		TOWSON	63.6​	20​	14​	11​
12​	IOWA	83.1	19​	15​		NORTH TEXAS	63.8​	19​	15​	12​
13​	AUBURN	83.1	27​	8​		SAINT PETER'S	64.0​	19​	14​	13​
14​	KENNESAW STATE	82.8	15​	16​		COLGATE	64.1​	25​	10​	14​
15​	PURDUE	82.3	34​	5​		ARMY	64.3​	10​	22​	15​
16​	CORNELL	82.1	22​	8​		LOUISIANA TECH	64.5​	22​	10​	16​
17​	LIPSCOMB	82.1	20​	12​		MERRIMACK	65.4​	21​	12​	17​
18​	FLORIDA ATLANTIC	82.0	25​	9​		UCLA	65.5​	16​	17​	18​
19​	NORTH CAROLINA	81.9	29​	8​		LIBERTY	65.5​	18​	14​	19​
20​	TULANE	81.9	17​	17​		CHARLOTTE	65.6​	19​	12​	20​
21​	UT - MARTIN	81.5	21​	11​		VILLANOVA	65.6​	18​	16​	21​
22​	BYU	81.4	23​	11​		WESTERN ILLINOIS	65.7​	21​	12​	22​
23​	UCONN	81.4	37​	3​		MARYLAND	65.9​	16​	17​	23​
24​	YOUNGSTOWN STATE	81.2	22​	10​		GEORGE MASON	65.9​	20​	12​	24​
25​	DENVER	81.0	17​	17​		MICHIGAN STATE	66.1​	20​	15​	25​
	AVERAGES	83.7	24.8​	10.0​		AVERAGES	63.6​	22.1​	11.8​

 

[yoshukai]

The problem is that his defenses started sucking too in the last few years:

2024: #211
2023: #103
2022: #35
2021: #110
2020: #59

You see why he's gone now?

Why are you still acting like he could coach? Clearly, the five year trend shows his offensive and defensive efficiencies were gutter level.

You want to compete for Final Fours? Get your offensive and defensive efficiencies BOTH in the top 20.

You can’t use statistics and logic in an argument with someone that doesn’t use statistics and logic to form their opinion in the first place. They’ll never accept it.

 

[The_Answer1313]

I think utter disregard for turnover production is a folly in approach that could have been easily addressed and exploited by practically any other coach, especially given Reed's preternatural ability.

It seems like he always viewed it as gambling on defense which is definitely not something I agreed with. You could force turnovers on def and not gamble much. Especially when you had guys on last years team where that played into their strengths on d like Reed.

Tho it’s interesting looking at various coaches. You have guys that follow typical trends. Own styles.

 

[The_Answer1313]

The problem is that his defenses started sucking too in the last few years:

2024: #211
2023: #103
2022: #35
2021: #110
2020: #59

You see why he's gone now?

Why are you still acting like he could coach? Clearly, the five year trend shows his offensive and defensive efficiencies were gutter level.

You want to compete for Final Fours? Get your offensive and defensive efficiencies BOTH in the top 20.

This isn’t what this discussion is even about tho lol.

No one needs to be reminded why he’s gone. The results clearly wasn’t there.

This is a discussion about whether or not any other particular coach would have made a difference if they had the same personnel. This notion that any coach could have taken a team ranked 109th and turn them into a final four caliber defense I think is a bit of a stretch at best.

 

[bigbluedon]

90% of the people will say coaching.

Truth is, we just had poor defensive players. That's all.

It's the same exact reason we were so efficient on offense. We had a group of insanely talented players on one side of the ball that were not good on defense.

They were poor defenders because they weren’t coached at all . Bobby Knight taught slow white kids how to play defense. Cal mailed it in a long time ago. It is on him and no one else.

 

[megablue]

This isn’t what this discussion is even about tho lol.

No one needs to be reminded why he’s gone. The results clearly wasn’t there.

This is a discussion about whether or not any other particular coach would have made a difference if they had the same personnel. This notion that any coach could have taken a team ranked 109th and turn them into a final four caliber defense I think is a bit of a stretch at best.

Who were the best five (5) defensive players on last year’s team ?? If you were committed to keep 2 or 3 on the floor for most of the time, would significant offense have been given up ?? I think probably so … and Pope will try hard to balance off/def this season, most probably, with constant blending. It will be very interesting to watch the season unfold …

 

[The_Answer1313]

Who were the best five (5) defensive players on last year’s team ?? If you were committed to keep 2 or 3 on the floor for most of the time, would significant offense have been given up ?? I think probably so … and Pope will try hard to balance off/def this season, most probably, with constant blending. It will be very interesting to watch the season unfold …

You know the crazy thing. I couldn't even name the 5 best defensive players from last year. I'm not sure Cal could either. I think that was a big part of the problem.

Reed was great at forcing turnovers, but tended to let his man go by him way too often.

We had three 7 footers that you would have thought one of them could have offered some rim protection, but that was never the case.

I think Wagner was ok on defense at times, but people complained he was playing too much over Rob/Reed to begin with lol.

As some pointed out in this thread, the defense has always been trending downward but this year was just super weird on how extreme the gap was.

 

[The_Answer1313]

They were poor defenders because they weren’t coached at all . Bobby Knight taught slow white kids how to play defense. Cal mailed it in a long time ago. It is on him and no one else.

I feel like there's this perception that offense is based on talent and skill and defense can be completely based on coaching.

I'm not necessarily sure I agree with that.

If guys cannot consistently keep their man away from the goal, I'm not exactly sure how much coaching you can do. There's countless players that were good at one aspect and not the other.

 

[Fox2monk]

I think that coaching would have helped at the margins. Is there another coach out there that could have had the defense play somewhat better? Sure. But we finished 109th in def efficiency. How higher could another coach have gotten that? 80th? 70th?

I just think it's an interesting discussion to have. Just how much weight does one place on what a coach can do.

But at UK where the seasons are defined by final fours and national championships, I just don't think there was any coach out there getting that particular team to play defense at a level to compete for that.

We honestly can’t say for sure. I just think a better coach places UGO on the block and has them funnel defenders much like the Tennessee game. Then we never played any version of zone. I bet we win 4-5 more games and consistently outscore teams playing our best guys more often and trying a zone. Plus we lack basic fundamentals, look at those video breakdowns and it’s obvious we never worked on detail work in practice.

 

[megablue]

You know the crazy thing. I couldn't even name the 5 best defensive players from last year. I'm not sure Cal could either. I think that was a big part of the problem.

Reed was great at forcing turnovers, but tended to let his man go by him way too often.

We had three 7 footers that you would have thought one of them could have offered some rim protection, but that was never the case.

I think Wagner was ok on defense at times, but people complained he was playing too much over Rob/Reed to begin with lol.

As some pointed out in this thread, the defense has always been trending downward but this year was just super weird on how extreme the gap was.

I TOTALLY understand your point and agree with it. I think Ugonna, Thiero and Wagner were serviceable, but nothing stellar. After that, besides a gambling Sheppard, we had little natural and instinctive defensive ability, in my opinion.

 

[megablue]

I feel like there's this perception that offense is based on talent and skill and defense can be completely based on coaching.

I'm not necessarily sure I agree with that.

If guys cannot consistently keep their man away from the goal, I'm not exactly sure how much coaching you can do. There's countless players that were good at one aspect and not the other.

100000% this ^^^^^

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

Part of it was pace of play. Basically why our FB team typically has overinflated D stats that don't pass the eye test. Cal, like Stoops, loves to grind which limits possessions. Last year, we ran like Oats was coaching offense. That equates to more possessions.

However, last year it looked like he tried what he always tries, it didn't work and he was either too incompetent to adjust or just too lazy.

I'll go with the latter.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Part of it was pace of play. Basically why our FB team typically has overinflated D stats that don't pass the eye test. Cal, like Stoops, loves to grind which limits possessions. Last year, we ran like Oats was coaching offense. That equals to more possessions.

However, last year it looked like he tried what he always tries, it didn't work and he's either too incompetent to adjust or just too lazy.

I'll go with the latter.

Yeah but the efficiency stats wipe that stuff out.

We were always going to give up more points as we did play at a faster pace.

The problem was we were giving up too many points per possession.

124th in opponent effective FG%
263rd in turnover %
234th in defensive rebounding%
204th in opponent Free Throw Rate

ouch.

 

[megablue]

For general reference and possible discussion, here are points scored, points allowed, margin, wins and losses for the fifteen (15) seasons under Calipari:

	Points	Points
	Scored	Allowed	Margin	Wins	Losses
2009-10	79.26​	64.95​	14.31​	35​	3​
2010-11	74.87​	63.47​	11.40​	29​	9​
2011-12	77.38​	60.58​	16.80​	38​	2​
2012-13	72.61​	64.45​	8.16​	21​	12​
2013-14	74.80​	66.63​	8.17​	29​	11​
2014-15	74.36​	54.31​	20.05​	38​	1​
2015-16	79.47​	68.08​	11.39​	27​	9​
2016-17	84.87​	71.47​	13.40​	32​	6​
2017-18	76.76​	70.24​	6.52​	26​	11​
2018-19	75.84​	64.70​	11.14​	30​	7​
2019-20	74.42​	66.10​	8.32​	25​	6​
2020-21	70.44​	70.16​	0.28​	9​	16​
2021-22	79.44​	66.56​	12.88​	26​	8​
2022-23	74.47​	67.74​	6.73​	22​	12​
2023-24	89.03​	79.70​	9.33​	23​	10​
Averages	77.20​	66.61​	10.59​	27.33​	8.20​

 

[Butters' Dad]

Y'all, revisit my post above. That's 40 years of watching basketball. It should have put a bow on the thread.

 

[DraftCat]

I apologize I didn't read all the posts but my simple thoughts are below.

Defense is effort.
Defense is also making adjustments mid game whether to go: man to man, Zone, 1-3-1, press you name it.

Likely a combination of coaching and players combined. I know as an "offensive player" sometimes I personally lacked on Defense cause I thought I could make it up on the other end. Not saying that was the case but I do know those with that mindset as well.

 

[ukfan1622]

If guys cannot consistently keep their man away from the goal, I'm not exactly sure how much coaching you can do. There's countless players that were good at one aspect and not the other.

I can't hear this argument without thinking of Dillingham. Dilly was quite simply one of the worst defenders in college basketball, bottom 5% and I've heard his stats were closer to the bottom 1%. Was Dilly not quick enough or athletic enough to stay in front of his man? Of course he was, so the question is why was he so bad? I can only think of two reasons: effort and coaching. If was lack of effort then that also goes back to coaching since a coach is supposed to get his players to put forth the effort or not put them on the floor.

 

[Johnfarrel]

90% of the people will say coaching.

Truth is, we just had poor defensive players. That's all.

It's the same exact reason we were so efficient on offense. We had a group of insanely talented players on one side of the ball that were not good on defense.

Insanely talented players on offense rarely play good defense. They either can't or won't.