Never saw Macy, so I can't make an accurate judgment on them. But whoever was the "best", Tyler Ulis may end up being my favorite point guard to play at Kentucky.
Who was the best point guard to play at UK?
- Thread starter screwduke
- Start date
And he'd probably get called for walking or palming a lot too.
The question is "the best PG at UK"....not in the NBA. Wall wasn't even remotely as effective a PG as Macy was. All it takes is a look at the numbers, they don't lie. Wall was a TO machine without any assemblance of a jumper. Ralph Beard and Tyler Ulis were both better PGs, as well as Brandon Knight. Wall was likely No. 5 at UK.
Have to agree........ Macy was the best I saw. Ulis if he stays 4 years would be close 2nd.
Beard was before my time. I'd say Macy based on accomplishments at UK. He beat Magic Johnson to go to the FF and led us to the NC. Minniefield deserves mention and Ulis is rising rapidly. I do think if Wall had stayed another year or so and won an NC he would be the guy.
Well, for one, numbers are only part of the story. But let's take Knight vs Wall by numbers. Knight was a better outside shooter by about 5.5% and scored an extra 1/2 point per game. He had a whopping 0.8 few turnovers per game. Otherwise, Wall has him everywhere. Better field-goal percentage, rebounds, steals, and most importantly 2 1/2 more assists per game.
I'm a firm believer that stats must be taken in context, though. The situation each player is in greatly affects what his stats look like. So, stats be damned, the best UK point guard I have witnessed in my life time was John Wall.
Oh dear god, he would have bolted past those old school honkeys like the flash.
Again, Wall is clearly the best PG to play at UK. He was amazing his one year here, and all these other guys played more than one year...if Wall played 2-3 years I doubt the silly arguments would be had.
Another stat:
Turnovers-- Macy had seasons of 68, 63 & 60 for a total of 191 in 98 games.
Wall had 149 in 37 games in his lone season.
Stats are neat and all that, but natural talent-wise, it as to be Wall. I'm picking Wall to run the floor or get me that shot I need.
Good point. I don't think there's ever been a UK guard that made me feel more confident with the ball in his hands than Kyle Macy. With Wall you were never quite sure what he'd do with it, he might do something spectacular, or he might throw away a bad turnover. But with Macy you just always knew he was gonna make the right decision with the ball.
If we're purely basing this on what they did "at UK", and not their NBA career, I think Macy would be my choice. Obviously Wall's the more talented player, but he was only here one year and hadn't yet worked out the kinks in his game at that time.
Come on, man. You have to respect the past. Without basketball in the 20s through the 50s, there would be no basketball later. Your argument gives credence to the Louisville fans' argument that our titles in the 40s and 50s shouldn't count.
Babe Ruth is nowhere near the athlete Barry Bonds is, but Babe Ruth once hit more home runs than any other TEAM in baseball. People paid to come see him play, and baseball became a much more popular sport.
You're a hit at parties, aren't you? You don't judge anyone on "the last five seconds of the game." It was a reference to his shots against Louisville and Michigan State.
Kyle Macy was a champion as was Ralph Beard. I would take either over anyone else who has played point guard for the Cats. John Wall was an athlete no doubt about that but he couldn't shoot well enough from the outside to win a title. Macy could drill it from anywhere and he had total control of the team. When he went to the free throw line you just wrote it down. Swish. He set the tempo and was cool under pressure. If you were fortunate to see him play it is a no brainer.
And you can bet Kyle Macy, when told that Mazzula goes left every time, would defend him that way, instead of getting burned repeatedly.
It's not all about style. Substance has always been more important, and always will be.
Comparing freshmen Wall and sophomore Rondo: Wall shot better from outside and on the free-throw line, but Rondo was a better rebounder and had a better assist/turnover ratio. In my memory, Rondo was also just as freakishly athletic of a PG, if not more so in some ways, as Wall. I guess the shooting, especially FT shooting, might give the edge to freshman Wall; but I think Rondo was every bit as much a monster PG talent in all other ways.
I respect the past just fine for what it was then, but it's just a fact that most athletes from 60 years ago aren't near the same kind of athletes they are today in general. You could probably take any 6th man on an NBA roster today and he'd be an All-Star in the 60s. It's just different. Bigger, faster, more athletic. Same as you could take Barry Bonds in his roided up heyday and stick him in the Majors in the 30s and he'd hit 100 homeruns against those joker pitcher lobbing up 80-85 mph fastballs. It'd be batting practice.
You SAY you respect the past, then you disrespect it. Of course the athletes are more athletic. The average American male today is three inches taller and lives 15 years longer than his counterpart from 50 years ago. And athletes today make more money, so they can afford to spend all their time working on their game. Not to mention the "helpers" like roids and what have you that most of them take, even if they aren't legal.
It's only fair to compare Beard to his contemporaries, Macy to his, and Wall to his. Fact is, Beard won back to back titles and Olympic gold. Sounds like Anthony Davis to me. Macy beat Magic Johnson, the triplets of Arkansas and Spanarkel of Duke on his way to his title. Wall beat Ish Smith, someone at Cornell and then got his jock handed to him by Joe Freakin' Mazzula.
So how, exactly, is Wall better than Beard or Macy? Cam Newton is not better than Joe Montana, even though physically speaking it's no comparison.
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First of all the answer is determined by YOUR AGE. Many of you never saw Ralph Beard, or Macy actually play. We have had a ton of really great point guards. The fastest I have ever seen at UK was Dwight Anderson end line to end line. Macy for always being clutch. Course Wall. Just so many really they are had to pick.
You're right that a lot of it is determined by a poster's age, but not necessarily in the way you think.
Many, many, many people romanticize players from their youth, and build them into Paul Bunyanesque superheros. It's only natural- you remember players from the time you first discovered and grew to love the sport with a special fondness.
The reality is that, at least in sports where participation levels stay really high (and where performance enhancing drugs aren't a huge factor), competition levels naturally rise over time. You're drawing players from a wider pool of talent, the economic motivators are greater than ever, and training and diet advance. Some people like to deny that, but it's the truth.
John Wall, and my exposure to UK basketball goes back to Cotton Nash
John Wall is hands-down the best point guard we have seen here
John Wall is hands-down the best point guard we have seen here
What's the conversation supposed to be? Who was the best player that played the point guard position at UK? It's Wall. Hands down.
Who was the best "pure pg?" Maybe there's an argument for someone else. But I'm not going to penalize Wall because part of his game is his slashing and finishing. It's the same as faulting a running quarterback. "Well, he aint a pure QB" No, but he's effective.
Wall was the best athlete playing PG, I'll buy that. He's still not the best PG in UK history. This is only my opinion, just as JW is others. Nothing will change either sides opinions. PG's that cant shoot and are TO machines cant make it to number one in my mind is all. The question is not who jumps higher or runs faster.
The way he did that freak athlete Joe Freaking Mazzulabut that's not the question. The question is "best PG", not "best point guard in comparison to their respective era".
Put Ralph Beard on the 2010 team and they're no better. Put John Wall on one of Beard's teams and... well.... The way it's worded is cut and dry.
The other way around and there may be an argument. "Ralph Beard, for what he did back then is arguably the greatest PG in UK history in relation to the era in which he played."
However in black and white sense, which is how it's presented, John Wall would leave a mushroom shaped bruise on Beard's face and anyone else from that era.
then what the **** is it supposed to be? Some can say "he's the best player that played point guard but not the best point guard." Makes no sense. People drum down his shooting but overlook his passing. He's arguably also the best passing PLAYER to ever play at UK as well regardless of position. Don't you want your PGs setting people up?
You fellers are funny.
:Let me slow it down for you. Cam Newton is a more athletic than John Wall.....would he be a better PG? You are supposed to put the guy with the best handles, and a better decision maker who commits fewer turnovers and can make jump shots as well as drive the ball. Macy checks all those boxes. JW doesn't. Just because he can 360 dunk doesn't make him a great PG. I never said he was the best player....he was the best athlete on that team. It means he runs faster and jumps higher and quicker. It does not mean hes a good shooter and passer though.
beard
i always enjoy maggard's nuts ornament talking down to people. you're not a smart dude and you don't know basketball, hoss
i always enjoy maggard's nuts ornament talking down to people. you're not a smart dude and you don't know basketball, hoss
Seems like superman should have been able to guard WVU's sixth man without any help especially since Joe wasn't a super athlete.
I can't say he is the best passing PG, Wayne Turner, Larry Johnson to name a few were excellent passers who like Wall were limited from the outside to some degree. Are we not lucky that we have so many choices. There are a ton of really good PG's that have not even been mentioned.
You fellers are funny.
Not the highest PPG, not the highest ASST/TO, but without a doubt Kyle Macy was the best point to ever play at Kentucky. And I believe he wasn't even considered a point back then - there was no "point guard". But Kyle was the most reliable player to ever wear the jersey. He was the quintessential "go to guy" of all time, never failing to make the assist or basket when we really needed one. And, did I forget he actually never missed a single free throw!! I think.
You guys have mentioned the ones I"d suggest
Honorable mention (from my lifetime)
Epps
Knight &
Minnifield
But WHY is that the criteria?
If Wall is SO much better at other things, then makes up for a lot.
Steph Curry is the prime example. He's not in the top 10 in assists. He turns the ball over more than others. Chris Paul has more assists and less turnovers. You're going to say Paul is a better PG because he's more of a "pure PG?" While Curry is the reigning MVP and arguably the best player in the entire game.
Wall is the best basketball player that played PG at UK. You're being obstinate because it's not fun to just agree that it's Wall.
You fellers are funny.
Dude, he committed 149 turnovers in just one season, which ain't exactly the type of thing one puts in a "best passer" resume. You know, a ton of assists does not always mean great passer if the guy is also committing a ton of turnovers with his passes. And the fact is Wall threw away a lot of ill-advised balls that Macy would not have. Macy was certainly the more efficient passer even if the assists didn't pile up at quite the same rate.
If we're taking into account entire basketball career (ie. NBA career too), then I'm going with Wall. But if it's purely about what they did "at UK", I'm going with Macy. Because the fact is Wall had some clear weaknesses to his game here (namely the bad outside shooting and being turnover prone) that Macy did not share.
Try it this way. My OPINION is that Kyle Macy was a much better PG than John Wall and I got to see both in person. What other things is he better at?? Kyle was not deficient in any one particular area. NONE. Dude was nearly perfection in motion. JW was a runaway train at times. Tell me one area JW was better than Kyle at that were backed up by stats. I'm listening. You saying he was the best player at UK period is debatable when he wasn't even the best at his position. I think Anthony Davis recently comes to mind.
Id say wall. If i was building a team, he would be my point guard.
If someone else built a team with Macy as PG, wall would make him look like he was standing still. Wall was special.
Pure talent, skill and ability its a no brainer -Wall.
Put together the "perfect" team and john wall never shoots a 3 ball. You have other shooters. Put together a mediocre team where you need a shooting PG, Macy may be your man.
If someone else built a team with Macy as PG, wall would make him look like he was standing still. Wall was special.
Pure talent, skill and ability its a no brainer -Wall.
Put together the "perfect" team and john wall never shoots a 3 ball. You have other shooters. Put together a mediocre team where you need a shooting PG, Macy may be your man.
I think this is the wrong way to look at it. To suggest that people from the 50's would not be capable of elevating their game to compete with players today is a little misguided. The only difference in people today and in the 50's is training techniques have improved. Athletic ability is genetics. There are great athletes in every era. You can't just assume that people from different eras have less physical ability than people today, given the same training techniques. John Wall in the 1950's wouldn't have been the John Wall of today.
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