Wall vs. Irving

[morgousky]

they were the topic of discussion when they both entered the league and competed against each other from a young age. Wall was better in college, has been a better pro by miles imo, and yet Irving seems to be given better name recognition.

Why?

Duke / media bias? Catchy athletic last name? Played with Lebron?

What gives?

I was having a conversation with a few friends who are avid NBA guys who couldn’t believe Walls stats are that much better, but still said they think Kyrie is the better player.

Makes no sense.

 

[Mr_GG]

they were the topic of discussion when they both entered the league and competed against each other from a young age. Wall was better in college, has been a better pro by miles imo, and yet Irving seems to be given better name recognition.

Why?

Duke / media bias? Catchy athletic last name? Played with Lebron?

What gives?

I was having a conversation with a few friends who are avid NBA guys who couldn’t believe Walls stats are that much better, but still said they think Kyrie is the better player.

Makes no sense.

Played for Duke, played for better NBA teams, the media has always hyped him. But really, you're right. It makes no sense.

 

[BBUK]

The chosen one...

While ALL the little children say; Thanks JW, Cuz, AD, yadda, yadda, yadda....What does UK put in the water?

 

[morgousky]

Played for Duke, played for better NBA teams, the media has always hyped him. But really, you're right. It makes no sense.

I think the last names played a role as well. Irving is just a famous last name and Wall is eh....

Not sure how much that matters but I think its played a role in common fans minds.

 

[ABlockalypseBrow]

I think there’s been a few factors, aside from media bias: (1) He played with Lebron on a title team, huge bump for him. (2) He’s more of a scoring/shooting guard than Wall, which is more flashy. (3) K gave him a bump by giving him an Olympics role beyond what he’d earned.

 

[morgousky]

I think there’s been a few factors, aside from media bias: (1) He played with Lebron on a title team, huge bump for him. (2) He’s more of a scoring/shooting guard than Wall, which is more flashy. (3) K gave him a bump by giving him an Olympics role beyond what he’d earned.

Great assessment. The only thing I'd say is the media and fans hyped Kyrie over Wall well before he played with Bron.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Kyrie's career PER is two points higher, he has a championship that he was a crucial part of, plays a much more highlight-friendly style, and played with LeBron and then the Celtics while Wall is in Washington.

 

[BlueBlood66]

Wall has better assist numbers but Irving is much more efficient scorer. His career eFG% is over 5 percent higher than Wall. He also has a higher career PPG than wall.

Also the shoes.

 

[Mr_GG]

Wall has better assist numbers but Irving is much more efficient scorer. His career eFG% is over 5 percent higher than Wall. He also has a higher career PPG than wall.

Also the shoes.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

I live in the Washington market, and I think it is as simple as that: Wall is stuck with the Wizards. Terrible front office headed by ex-Vol Ernie Grunfeld for the past 15 years. It's not really a huge NBA town -- I go to a few games a year and the atmosphere is not close to a college game or a big-time NBA program. If the Redskins aren't terrible, that's all anyone cares about from August to December. The Caps are a sexier winter option. And by spring, people are hoping the Nationals break through.

I really wish John had rolled the dice when his first contract was up. This is an era where it's "have talent, will travel." He'll play out at least the best part of his career here, never even get to a finals, and be one of those guys about whom people say, "he was a lot better than I remember" when they look back on his career.

 

[morgousky]

Kyrie's career PER is two points higher, he has a championship that he was a crucial part of, plays a much more highlight-friendly style, and played with LeBron and then the Celtics while Wall is in Washington.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kyrie_irving_vs_john_wall.htm

I mean, this isn't even a contest. Wall is head and shoulders better than Irving. And from PG perspective it's even worse.

When I showed these statistics to a my friends who like irving over Wall, they had no idea it was this wide of a gap, and STILL said they prefer Irving.

Makes no sense. Irving only has a title because of Lebron James.

I just dont understand how reality is so skewed with these two players. Literally the only thing Kyrie does better is shoot the ball.

 

[BlueBlood66]

Literally the only thing Kyrie does better is shoot the ball.

That’s a pretty big part of the game.

Also Irving turns it over less.

 

[morgousky]

That’s a pretty big part of the game.

Also Irving turns it over less.

And literally is the least important factor for a PG. You dont need to be able to shoot from the floor as PG if you're well rounded everywhere else. It's better for your team too.

Rondo. Steve Nash.

 

[Mr_GG]

That’s a pretty big part of the game.

Also Irving turns it over less.

Probably because Kyrie averages less assist than Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

 

[morgousky]

Probably because Kyrie averages less assist than Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

But he hit 2 threes last night, while missing 25 points around the floor.

 

[AnarchoNeoLuddite]

Iriving is a garbage defender. Wall more steals blocks all nba second team Defensive a few years ago and is at least in the conversation as a making the cut for it.

 

[UKCATSFREAK]

I think the last names played a role as well. Irving is just a famous last name and Wall is eh....

Not sure how much that matters but I think its played a role in common fans minds.

I hadn't even thought of that but I think you're right with people, even subconsciously.

 

[morgousky]

I hadn't even thought of that but I think you're right with people, even subconsciously.

It's a theory that's laughed at, but I've always thought, to common fans, it plays a subconscious role. Couple it with the teams hes played on, the Duke love, the media bias, and it just creates a perception that isn't real.

Also all Duke really has in the NBA, at least over the last decade, is Irving. I think they pump him so hard because they've got nothing else to talk about.

It's why people are trying to make Tatum out as the second coming when in reality he wouldn't be top 10 on UK's NBA list.

 

[BlueBlood66]

And literally is the least important factor for a PG. You dont need to be able to shoot from the floor as PG if you're well rounded everywhere else. It's better for your team too.

Rondo. Steve Nash.

Someone should tell Curry to stop shooting then and try and get as many assists as Wall.

 

[YouKay]

I'm a huge fan of both players. I would flip a coin between them if I was putting together a team. But in a close game I feel very confident in Kyrie making the shot. Not so much with Wall. That's the difference maker to me. The Celtics went and got Kyrie because he killed them in the playoffs, especially late in games.

 

[BlueBlood66]

Probably because Kyrie averages less assist than Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

He does?

 

[GonzoCat90]

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kyrie_irving_vs_john_wall.htm

I mean, this isn't even a contest. Wall is head and shoulders better than Irving. And from PG perspective it's even worse.

When I showed these statistics to a my friends who like irving over Wall, they had no idea it was this wide of a gap, and STILL said they prefer Irving.

Makes no sense. Irving only has a title because of Lebron James.

I just dont understand how reality is so skewed with these two players. Literally the only thing Kyrie does better is shoot the ball.

Kyrie was brilliant in that Finals series. The Cavs had zero chance without him.

No one who watches basketball will tell you that John Wall is "head and shoulders better" than Kyrie Irving because it isn't true. Your eyes don't tell you that and the stats don't tell you that. Kyrie's PER, BPM, VORP, and win shares are all higher per game/season. He has a ring. Wall is a better passer and defender. Kyrie is better in the clutch.

So other than performing better in bigger situations for more popular teams and having a more unique style of play, I don't know why Kyrie is more...whatever your arbitrary standard of acceptance is that you're going for. You gotta pin it down better if you want answers.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

they were the topic of discussion when they both entered the league and competed against each other from a young age. Wall was better in college, has been a better pro by miles imo, and yet Irving seems to be given better name recognition.

Why?

Duke / media bias? Catchy athletic last name? Played with Lebron?

What gives?

I was having a conversation with a few friends who are avid NBA guys who couldn’t believe Walls stats are that much better, but still said they think Kyrie is the better player.

Makes no sense.

75% having a duke alum NBA commissioner and 25% having the media being paid by duke alums

 

[morgousky]

Kyrie was brilliant in that Finals series. The Cavs had zero chance without him.

No one who watches basketball will tell you that John Wall is "head and shoulders better" than Kyrie Irving because it isn't true. Your eyes don't tell you that and the stats don't tell you that. Kyrie's PER, BPM, VORP, and win shares are all higher per game/season. He has a ring. Wall is a better passer and defender. Kyrie is better in the clutch.

So other than performing better in bigger situations for more popular teams and having a more unique style of play, I don't know why Kyrie is more...whatever your arbitrary standard of acceptance is that you're going for. You gotta pin it down better if you want answers.

Wall is than Kyrie Iving hands down. When Kyrie gets to a finals and wins a ring without Lebron James, call me. Regardless if he played clutch in that series, Lebron was drawing the attention. Kyrie would have never been in that final without Lebron in the first place.

Wall plays in Washington. Kyrie plays in Bsoton.

Wall has had Beal. Irving has had Lebron James.

Walls numbers are higher across the board, and in assist Wall walks the dog. It's not eeven a contest. Defensively it's not a contest. There is very little way to arrive at a conclusion that Irving is better than Wall. To do so you have to look at post season success and neglect the fact that Kyrie has had better teams and one of the most dynamic players of all time.

 

[BlueBlood66]

Walls numbers are higher across the board.

Except for:
PPG
Turnovers (walls is higher but I don’t think that’s what you meant)
2PFG%
3PFG%
FT%
Also many advanced stats favor Irving as well.

Feel free to make an argument for Wall, he’s a great player and it’s a good debate but saying things that are so blatantly incorrect takes away from the real comparison.

 

[Nubb16]

Don’t even get me started. Broke knee kyrie played with lebron or else he wouldn’t be a house hold name like he is. Very good offensive player and shooter. But Wall is a better complete player. He’s a real defender and pg. put him on a good team and he’s far superior.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Wall is than Kyrie Iving hands down. When Kyrie gets to a finals and wins a ring without Lebron James, call me. Regardless if he played clutch in that series, Lebron was drawing the attention. Kyrie would have never been in that final without Lebron in the first place.

Wall plays in Washington. Kyrie plays in Bsoton.

Wall has had Beal. Irving has had Lebron James.

Walls numbers are higher across the board, and in assist Wall walks the dog. It's not eeven a contest. Defensively it's not a contest. There is very little way to arrive at a conclusion that Irving is better than Wall. To do so you have to look at post season success and neglect the fact that Kyrie has had better teams and one of the most dynamic players of all time.

You can keep re-stating the same half-point over and over but it doesn't get more true. His numbers aren't better across the board. And even if they were, they aren't "head and shoulders" or "hands down" better, especially when his team success has been less than Irvings.

You (I think) asked why people think Kyrie is better. It's because his numbers are better, he's won more, he's been in the spotlight more, he's more fun to watch, and their eyes tell them he's better. Is Pau Gasol better than Blake Griffin? Probably. I'm not sure, but I know which one is more marketable.

 

[efauth99]

Wall has never had a quality big man to play with. Gortat was okay but if he were to play with an AD, Cousins, or Drummond it would make him that much better.

People don't seem to like him for whatever reason dating back to his high school days. He got in trouble for the type of thing that 90% of kids will do and got crushed for it. Too many people think of him in the same light as Colin Cowherd which is ridiculous.

I would take that dude as the PG of my team all day long.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Wall opened his mouth up for the revolver when he re-signed with Washington, a deal that takes him through 2023 if I'm not mistaken. Wall made a business decision, which is fine and I'm happy for him, but playing on a two player team (he and Beal) where the Wizards are just good enough to land sub-par draft pieces, and something of a basketball purgatory develops, one where the 2nd round of the playoffs becomes a team's ceiling.

I actually have Kyrie and Wall pretty close in terms of value. They've both hovered in that top 10-15 overall range for most of their careers. I'd put Lillard in there with them as well as far as point guard value. Depending on the season, those guys have rotated who is the better player among them and I don't think it's definitive. There's no shame in being one of the top 10-15 players of your era. Wall will likely finish his career with 8,000 + assists, which will be good enough to get him into the all-time top 10.

 

[morgousky]

You can keep re-stating the same half-point over and over but it doesn't get more true. His numbers aren't better across the board. And even if they were, they aren't "head and shoulders" or "hands down" better, especially when his team success has been less than Irvings.

You (I think) asked why people think Kyrie is better. It's because his numbers are better, he's won more, he's been in the spotlight more, he's more fun to watch, and their eyes tell them he's better. Is Pau Gasol better than Blake Griffin? Probably. I'm not sure, but I know which one is more marketable.

I hate trying to debate through a computer.

I don't really mean he's "head and shoulders" above, as in their games are nowhere near similar in terms of value.

What I mean is the debate shouldn't be that close in terms of who should be seen as the better player. Wall is better than Kyrie in a lot of categories, I linked them you. But Irving has had more push from the media and people in general seem to think Walls numbers are below his and they're not. I think Wall not only has better PG skills, but he's a much, much better defender. So it seems weird that so many don't base their opinion around this.

 

[TM2013]

Lebron effect, plain and simple

 

[GonzoCat90]

Wall opened his mouth up for the revolver when he re-signed with Washington, a deal that takes him through 2023 if I'm not mistaken. Wall made a business decision, which is fine and I'm happy for him, but playing on a two player team (he and Beal) where the Wizards are just good enough to land sub-par draft pieces, and something of a basketball purgatory develops, one where the 2nd round of the playoffs becomes a team's ceiling.

I actually have Kyrie and Wall pretty close in terms of value. They've both hovered in that top 10-15 overall range for most of their careers. I'd put Lillard in there with them as well as far as point guard value. Depending on the season, those guys have rotated who is the better player among them and I don't think it's definitive. There's no shame in being one of the top 10-15 players of your era. Wall will likely finish his career with 8,000 + assists, which will be good enough to get him into the all-time top 10.

Good post. I think it depends on what you value and what the team needs.

If you flipped Wall and Lillard, it'd be a disaster for both franchises. Wall would be a great fit for a team like Phoenix (strictly from style of play, not age, etc) whereas I'm not sure Lillard would work. A guy like Lillard or Kyrie would be tremendous in Philadelphia, whereas I don't think Wall would work. Wall wouldn't fit next to LeBron, Lillard would be a dream fit.

If I'm trying to win a title this year and I don't have anyone on my team yet, I'd probably rank them Lillard, Kyrie, Wall, because I think a PG who can get a bucket is more useful in the NBA than one who dishes out 9 assists, and Lillard is more mature and durable than Kyrie has been.

 

[Aike]

Kyrie was already very popular before he teamed with Lebron. Everybody loved his handles, he got the Uncle Drew ad campaign early on, and others have mentioned his Team USA exposure.

Wall has had his moments, as far as popularity is concerned. Wall was actually first in All Star votes for Eastern Conference backcourt in 2015.

But that was also the year Lebron and Kyrie teamed up. By the end of the season, Kyrie was third team All-NBA. The next season came “the shot” and a ring.

Two years ago it was Wall’s turn to go All-NBA. But then he stalled out in Game 7 against Boston, and has frankly been on a slight downward trajectory since.

Doesn’t mean he can’t bounce back, and I’m hoping he does. But he’s in a much tougher spot to find success than Kyrie at this point.

There was a time when I would have said that Wall was clearly better. But Kyrie has improved, and he’s hit clutch shots in the biggest games. Maybe we overvalue that, and maybe it’s unfair, but the game always has been and always will be about championships.

Wall is being paid a fortune, and the East is theoretically open for the taking with Lebron out of the way. But the Raptors, Celtics, Sixers, and Bucks have all gotten better, and Washington looks worse.

That isn’t all Wall’s fault, but it is his responsibility to pull this team to the next level. The all-time greats have always been able to do that, and Wall will never be able to separate himself from guys like Kyrie unless he does.

 

[tjay11]

kyrie irving is a better basketball player than john wall.

ask any GM who they'd want first, they would pick irving

 

[Aike]

kyrie irving is a better basketball player than john wall.

ask any GM who they'd want first, they would pick irving

That’s a very strong point. Wait, let me text all the GMs and I’ll post their answers.

Oh wait a minute, you said any GM. OK, this shouldn’t take long. I’ll ask one GM and that will settle it. Thanks.

 

[jrpross]

Someone should tell Curry to stop shooting then and try and get as many assists as Wall.

Steph is the greatest shooter in the history of the game and he still averages more assists than Irving.

Don’t get me wrong, Kylie is an excellent player but I’d absolutely take Wall over him.

 

[BlueBlood66]

Steph is the greatest shooter in the history of the game and he still averages more assists than Irving.

Don’t get me wrong, Kylie is an excellent player but I’d absolutely take Wall over him.

True but just looking at last seasons shooting numbers Kyrie was closer to Steph than Wall was to Kyrie.

 

[WildMoon]

the dismal performance of wizards.

his regression doesn't help

having a huge injury season after his breakout really tampered his perception.

Irving is more of a lucky situation than anything else. He has constantly being part of winning situation promotes him in positive light (except before Lebron arrived in Cleveland, but he was young so it didn't affect him). It takes one or two shot to really put someone in amazing light (making the winning basket). Reality is, he isn't that great either. Neither are top 10 player in the league, barely top 20. Third tier players.

 

[UKCATSFREAK]

It's a theory that's laughed at, but I've always thought, to common fans, it plays a subconscious role. Couple it with the teams hes played on, the Duke love, the media bias, and it just creates a perception that isn't real.

Also all Duke really has in the NBA, at least over the last decade, is Irving. I think they pump him so hard because they've got nothing else to talk about.

It's why people are trying to make Tatum out as the second coming when in reality he wouldn't be top 10 on UK's NBA list.

Yeah, I agree with name thing. Hadn't even crossed my mind until you mentioned and it makes sense. Put a name like say....Clark on him or something and things change a little bit, definitely on a subconscious level. People just associate the name Irving with being great. Throw in a little Puke bias and boom.....you got Kyrie! Lol

 

[DevilFan1989]

Steph is the greatest shooter in the history of the game and he still averages more assists than Irving.

Don’t get me wrong, Kylie is an excellent player but I’d absolutely take Wall over him.

He averages more assists a game because no one else on the Wizards is a good passer while the Celtics have Rozier, Smart and Horford who are great facilitators. Also, he played with LeBron from 2015-2017 who's perhaps the best passer in the world.