UK Draft Round 2 - LukaszObrcut vs. Son_Of_Saul

[DraftCat]

Welcome to March Madness this is Round 2 of the 2024 UK Draft. (Click Here for Bracket).

Voters - Please vote for the team you believe would win in a 1 game elimination format. You will be able to change your vote and voting period is open for 48 hours. If a tie should occur I will extend the voting by another 2 hours until the tie is broken. Your vote will be visible.


@LukaszObrzut - Jamal Mashburn, Patrick Patterson, Jamal Murray, Rajon Rondo, Scott Padgett, Mike Phillips, John Pelphrey, Ramel Bradley, James Lee, Mike Pratt, Mark Coury

vs.

@Son_Of_Saul - John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Jodie Meeks, Antonio Reeves, PJ Washington, Keldon Johnson,Tyler Herro, Mark Pope, Reggie Hanson, Cason Wallace, Jarrod Polson

 

[Fox2monk]

On the surface I think SOS wins this. Very great shooting team, and one of the best PG/C combos ever here, I believe it would be hard to stop them with that kind of spacing. Almost everyone on his roster outside CUZ and Wall can shoot and that makes up for their one weakness.

On the other hand I think LukasZ has an advantage at forwards as Monster mash would dominate that defensive lineup. I think Rondo is one of the best guards you could ask for to help stop Wall. I like the toughness of his team as well. I think in the end the lack of a couple dominate big men to help Patterson would do him in. I think his team is best equipped to stop Saul and his overall lack of inside presence.

James Lee, Mike Phillips, and Pelphrey are as tough as guys gets to counter big cuz alone.

This matchup is way closer after inspection than it seems at first glance, although I believe SOS gets by a hair in a one game series due to hot shooting.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

1. Mashburn is the second best player in this draft, behind Issel.

He's a matchup nightmare. He's going to get 25 points in any of these games.

That said, he was not good in college at guarding guys like Juwan Howard. Mashburn tended to overcompensate. College PJ is a lot like college Howard in terms of skill. Not quite as good, but he possesses some similar skills.

If Mashburn doesn't guard Washington, he's going to have to guard Reeves, Hanson, and Keldon Johnson at the 3. Again, Mashburn is not a lockdown defender and never has been. He's going to score 25, but he's also going to give up 20 to the guy he's defending.

2. I like Murray for @LukaszObrzut as an inside-out player for their team (he was a heck of a draft pick and perfectly aligned with Mashburn's skillset), but he struggled against length. His presence (and Monk's on another team) is precisely why I drafted Cason Wallace. I actually think this is a game where I would probably play Wallace more than Reeves if it stays close late.

3. All respect to Mike Phillips, Padgett, Patterson, and Mashburn, but who in that frontcourt is going to defend Cousins? Phillips was pretty great as a sophomore. Does he stop Boogie? Maybe so. That's a big key in this matchup.

4. Rondo in college was very good. Wall in college was great. I have a real advantage at the point guard. He has a real advantage at the 4 with Mashburn.

5. Meeks and Murray offset each other. Both are going to score 18 to 22 in this game.

6. If he plays Mashburn at the 4, who does he use at the 3? If Mash plays the 3, he's going to have chase Reeves off screens all night. That's a scenario where I would play Reeves a ton of minutes at the 3. Let Mashburn go for 25 to 30. Contain Murray, guard Padgett and the rest of the front court one-on-one, and bait Rondo into a track meet. Sag off Rondo, limit their fast break, and make it a game where my depth can play a big factor.

This is a pretty awesome matchup. College Wall/Boogie/Meeks vs. College Mashburn/Murray/Rondo

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Will write some more when I get home.

I love my team. & I love this matchup for me.
Cousins was a great 23 min per game player. He was a good one for UK .. but SOS will have to make some decisions here.

Overall my team has better basketball players. I wanted a veteran team , with toughness and winning culture.

A combination of defense and offense - Mashburn will be a nightmare but so will Rondo in a fast paced style offense surrounded by clutch shooters in big moments.

Murray and Meeks are not the same player.
When Rondo gives Wall all he wants, Meeks is not near as comfortable as an off guard.

Rondo single season most steals vs Wall single season most turnovers

Cousin had 79 turnovers in 893 minutes
Vs
Patterson 41 turnovers 1255 minutes.

In a one game take all, turnovers will be key. My team has huge advantage there and on defense. Meeks and Reeves are not stopping this team

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Will write some more when I get home.

I love my team. & I love this matchup for me.
Cousins was a great 23 min per game player. He was a good one for UK .. but SOS will have to make some decisions here.

Overall my team has better basketball players. I wanted a veteran team , with toughness and winning culture.

A combination of defense and offense - Mashburn will be a nightmare but so will Rondo in a fast paced style offense surrounded by clutch shooters in big moments.

I'd like to see who you're starting in this game.

 

[Fox2monk]

Will write some more when I get home.

I love my team. & I love this matchup for me.
Cousins was a great 23 min per game player. He was a good one for UK .. but SOS will have to make some decisions here.

Overall my team has better basketball players. I wanted a veteran team , with toughness and winning culture.

A combination of defense and offense - Mashburn will be a nightmare but so will Rondo in a fast paced style offense surrounded by clutch shooters in big moments.

Murray and Meeks are not the same player.
When Rondo gives Wall all he wants, Meeks is not near as comfortable as an off guard.

Rondo single season most steals vs Wall single season most turnovers

I had a rough time determining a winner. I love your teams toughness and I think you do matchup well with his team at crucial spots.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

I'd like to see who you're starting in this game.

Rondo, (Junior)
Murray, (Freshman)
Mashburn, (Junior)
Padgett (Senior)
Patterson (Junior) All Sec Defense

Spread the floor, play up in tempo, but can slow in down in the half court- not as turnover prone. SOS team will be put on an island.

Mashburn is the best player with the best matchup. Murray is the best playmaker in terms of creating of the guards. Patterson and Padgett high IQ players to go well with the big 3

Quality bench with championship experience .. James Lee will break Reeves or Meeks if Mashburn doesn’t before

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Rondo, (Junior)
Murray, (Freshman)
Mashburn, (Junior)
Padgett (Senior)
Patterson (Junior) All Sec Defense

Spread the floor, play up in tempo, but can slow in down in the half court- not as turnover prone. SOS team will be put on an island.

Mashburn is the best player with the best matchup. Murray is the best playmaker in terms of creating of the guards. Patterson and Padgett high IQ players to go well with the big 3

Quality bench with championship experience .. James Lee will break Reeves or Meeks if Mashburn doesn’t before

Wall vs. Rondo
Meeks vs. Murray
Reeves vs. Mashburn
Washington vs. Padgett
Cousins vs. Patterson.

You have one definitive advantage - Mashburn. Even in the matchup, Mash is going to have to chase Reeves all over the court when the game turns into a grindhouse game. Mash is going for 28 and 8? Fine. Reeves is going to make him follow through three or four off-ball screens each possession. I've also got Hanson, who was a defensive dynamo who averaged 16 points 7 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 2 steals per game. He also knows Jamal's game. They played together in 1991. That insight is going to go a long, long way in this matchup. We won't be addressing Mashburn blind. We'll have Hanson's firsthand experience.

I have objectively solid advantages as point guard and center. Cousins might have been the best big man to ever play here. Meanwhile, Patterson at 6'8" is going to handle him? Wall's better than Rondo by a county mile. This isn't the Rondo of the Celtics NBA finals. Let's remember that. He was very good in college. Wall was great in college and was our most electrifying player - perhaps ever.

Washington vs. Padgett is a tie. Meeks vs. Murray is a tie.

My bench is a tad better. Pelphrey is legit for you, and Mike Phillips is a great backup, but Hanson is at least on Pelphrey's level, and Hanson is my third or fourth guy off the bench whereas Pelphrey is your first or second. Your bench is almost nonexistent when it comes to scoring. Who provides a consistent offensive spark for your bench? Bradley? He was good for 7 points when he's coming off the bench. He's also a 41% career field goal shooter. He's a volume guy who simply can't be counted on to deliver in a game that doesn't allow him to shoot it at least 10 times. Plus, his assist to turnover ration was putrid at UK. It was almost 1 to 1.

You're in an interesting spot. Mashburn and Murray are really the type of players that are volume scorers and demand shots. If either of them are off on any given night, you're sunk. Meanwhile, I've got five scorers in my starting five, and two coming off the bench. I can afford a bad game from Meeks or Reeves and still have a counterpunch with Herro or Keldon off the bench. I also have a legit lockdown defender in Cason Wallace who can at least try to contain Murray. Who do you have that's going to lockdown my wing guards? James Lee isn't going to do it. Murray's not going to do it.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

I would also like to highlight why I picked some guys. I wanted guys that fit roles.

James Lee- notorious for nasty dunks, being tough and arguably the best 6th man on a very talented championship team, similar to this one.

John Pelphrey- shooter, that played the game right- charges, back door passes (assist numbers 145) his senior year-and great size for his position

For comparison Reeves 54 Meeks 63 and Washington 63 assists

Mike Phillips- known for some of the strongest hands and setting tough screens- played as twin towers - but up insane numbers when relied upon

Mike Pratt 2nd team All American- 1st team All Sec- played with UK Legends-

Ramel Bradley- do it all player, great rebounder at guard for size- All Sec defense

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

People are mocking Cousins for only playing 24 minutes/game.

Meanwhile, Karl Towns played 21 minutes/game for the '15 team; and Nazr Mohammed played 21 minutes/game for the '98 team.

Boogie's playing 28 minutes in this game against your guys, and I'm going to get him a touch down low on every possession. I'm going to make Patterson defend him. You're essentially playing a guy who didn't even play that much 5 for the BCG years (for a reason), to play out of position against arguably the greatest big man we've had in school history. It looks fine on paper, but not in reality. Boogie's cooking Patterson in this matchup, and I imagine you'll be turning to Mike Phillips by the second TV timeout.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Wall vs. Rondo
Meeks vs. Murray
Reeves vs. Mashburn
Washington vs. Padgett
Cousins vs. Patterson.

You have one definitive advantage - Mashburn. Even in the matchup, Mash is going to have to chase Reeves all over the court when the game turns into a grindhouse game. Mash is going for 28 and 8? Fine. Reeves is going to make him follow through three or four off-ball screens each possession. I've also got Hanson, who was a defensive dynamo who averaged 16 points 7 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 2 steals per game. He also knows Jamal's game. They played together in 1991. That insight is going to go a long, long way in this matchup. We won't be addressing Mashburn blind. We'll have Hanson's firsthand experience.

I have objectively solid advantages as point guard and center. Cousins might have been the best big man to ever play here. Meanwhile, Patterson at 6'8" is going to handle him? Wall's better than Rondo by a county mile. This isn't the Rondo of the Celtics NBA finals. Let's remember that. He was very good in college. Wall was great in college and was our most electrifying player - perhaps ever.

Washington vs. Padgett is a tie. Meeks vs. Murray is a tie.

My bench is a tad better. Pelphrey is legit for you, and Mike Phillips is a great backup, but Hanson is at least on Pelphrey's level, and Hanson is my third or fourth guy off the bench whereas Pelphrey is your first or second. Your bench is almost nonexistent when it comes to scoring. Who provides a consistent offensive spark for your bench? Bradley? He was good for 7 points when he's coming off the bench. He's also a 41% career field goal shooter. He's a volume guy who simply can't be counted on to deliver in a game that doesn't allow him to shoot it at least 10 times. Plus, his assist to turnover ration was putrid at UK. It was almost 1 to 1.

You're in an interesting spot. Mashburn and Murray are really the type of players that are volume scorers and demand shots. If either of them are off on any given night, you're sunk. Meanwhile, I've got five scorers in my starting five, and two coming off the bench. I can afford a bad game from Meeks or Reeves and still have a counterpunch with Herro or Keldon off the bench. I also have a legit lockdown defender who can at least try to contain Murray. Who do you have that's going to lockdown my wing guards? James Lee isn't going to do it. Murray's not going to do it.

Come on. Volume shooters. Thats the definition of Reeves, Meeks and Herro.

You don’t want Wall to be a volume shooter.

Mashburn is the best player on the court. Maybe he can chase Reeves around. Maybe Reeves will shoot 1-15 from the field like he did against Kansas St.

Wall sure, a great player.. 149 turnovers over the course of a season makes for a lot of empty possessions- not ideal going against Rondo- who hands and wingspan did not just become a thing in the NBA.. he’s very much going to impact Wall- don’t kid yourself, the advantage, if any is not great.
Rondo will also be playing with better players, more skill and overall just a better style

I don’t need scoring off my bench. I don’t want guys that are chunking shots up- I’ve seen enough of that in real time to know it’s not a recipe to win ncaa tournament games.

I’ll take experience over freshman every day.
I’ll take the bench I have over yours. I’m not sure how you could say otherwise

Someone like Mike Pratt is much preferred to me over Cason Wallace, Tyler Herro etc.

3 year starter- high praise from Rupp as a “strong player” 17 ppg / 9 reb- 29 double doubles 2x 1st team all sec and 2nd team AA

Ramel Bradley is a dog on defense- he’s in there his Ny style play- he’s not needed to score. His minutes will be limited anyways. Murray is the back up PG.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

People are mocking Cousins for only playing 24 minutes/game.

Meanwhile, Karl Towns played 21 minutes/game for the '15 team; and Nazr Mohammed played 21 minutes/game for the '98 team.

Boogie's playing 28 minutes in this game against your guys, and I'm going to get him a touch down low on every possession. I'm going to make Patterson defend him. You're essentially playing a guy who didn't even play that much 5 for the BCG years (for a reason), to play out of position against arguably the greatest big man we've had in school history. It looks fine on paper, but not in reality. Boogie's cooking Patterson in this matchup, and I imagine you'll be turning to Mike Phillips by the second TV timeout.

That’s fine. I’ll take that. Give it to Cousins every time. - I’ll play the odds. Patterson was a great basketball player here. Sure look at size if you want- but he knew how to get in position- there’s a reason he was all sec defense

Who is your backup? All academic team Mark Pope?

W are talking about letting a turnover fouling machine get the ball every time- he better score because he’s going to have his hands full on the other end. Sure he won’t be tired or anything at that size.

You need to worry about how to guard Mashburn- Reeves isn’t the answer

 

[drcats2013]

Son of Saul by a freckle. I do think the Patterson/Padgett front court was the deciding factor for me in this one.

Man is it close, but I’m trying to put a vote in each of these matchups, and this is where I’m at for now.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Son of Saul by a freckle. I do think the Patterson/Padgett front court was the deciding factor for me in this one.

Man is it close, but I’m trying to put a vote in each of these matchups, and this is where I’m at for now.

So you believe that Cousins can come out and defend at the 3? You believe Reeves at 185 can play the 3? Pope as a backup Center?

Padgett and Patterson are floor spacers and high IQ guys. Patterson was my 2nd pick for a reason. There’s no doubt to me he might give up some, but will make an impact himself.

Also, this is the type of front court to allow Mashburn room to post up, drive and take adv in the half court. He was the best Uk player in modern history.

Mike Phillips is better than giving credit too for this matchup.

I also have the ability to play Mashburn at the 4- - in my opinion - many more options, guys that can make winning plays, proven.

I love our recent guys, but that were more prone to turnovers, dumb shots & playing the nba defense

 

[JonathanW]

This is a really good game.
Wall vs Rondo. Does Lukasz go small w/ Mash/PPat/Padgett, or does he put Phillips in there to battle Cousins. Could Cousins play more than 25min (we didn't really see that), and how quickly would he get fouls. While Cuz is on the floor it's maybe slight advantage to SOS. But those other 15min, Mash is just too good.
Mashburn & Murray, Meeks and ThReeves, with Rondo and Wall getting them the ball, both teams can score in bunches!!!

Phillips vs Cousins
Patterson vs PJ
Mashburn vs Reeves
Murray vs Meeks
Rondo vs Wall

Gotta go w/ Lukasz in this one by just 2 points. But I think SOS wins the poll because he has more recent players (for those young voters)

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

This is a really good game.
Wall vs Rondo. Does Lukasz go small w/ Mash/PPat/Padgett, or does he put Phillips in there to battle Cousins. Could Cousins play more than 25min (we didn't really see that), and how quickly would he get fouls. While Cuz is on the floor it's maybe slight advantage to SOS. But those other 15min, Mash is just too good.
Mashburn & Murray, Meeks and ThReeves, with Rondo and Wall getting them the ball, both teams can score in bunches!!!

Phillips vs Cousins
Patterson vs PJ
Mashburn vs Reeves
Murray vs Meeks
Rondo vs Wall

Gotta go w/ Lukasz in this one by just 2 points. But I think SOS wins the poll because he has more recent players (for those young voters)

The average poster on this website is over 50 years old. Many of them know about our older generation players. Additionally, it's not like Wall and Cousins are throwaways. They are very good players by any historic metric. Same for Meeks, Reeves, Washington, etc.

I think I built a good team. People keep demeaning it by acting like we have a substantial sample size for guys from the 1950s and 1960s. Do we actually have that sample size? There was no three-point line until the 1980s. There's plenty of great players out there who can't shoot from three in any era: Rhodes, Rondo, Andrew Harrison, Bledsoe, Briscoe, Goodwin, etc. We know, verifiably, that they were bad shooters; however, we can only guess if some of UK's greats from the past can actual shoot consistently from three.

People should take that into account more than the "recency bias" claim. You're gambling by taking an older generation guard or wing because we simply don't know how well they'd shoot from three.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

The average poster on this website is over 50 years old. Many of them know about our older generation players. Additionally, it's not like Wall and Cousins are throwaways. They are very good players by any historic metric. Same for Meeks, Reeves, Washington, etc.

I think I built a good team. People keep demeaning it by acting like we have a substantial sample size for guys from the 1950s and 1960s. Do we actually have that sample size? There was no three-point line until the 1980s. There's plenty of great players out there who can't shoot from three in any era: Rhodes, Rondo, Andrew Harrison, Bledsoe, Briscoe, Goodwin, etc. We know, verifiably, that they were bad shooters; however, we can only guess if some of UK's greats from the past can actual shoot consistently from three.

People should take that into account more than the "recency bias" claim. You're gambling by taking an older generation guard or wing because we simply don't know how well they'd shoot from three.

I understand. This matchup though highlights comparable guys. Sorta reminds me of Fox vs Ball. Rondo was drafted not only because he’s a true PG but also to put that pressure defense on the opposing guard. 6’9 wingspan.

Murray and Meeks are both players in which I got to see much of. I just think Murray can play minutes off the ball and on ball while not as confident in Meeks.

 

[drcats2013]

So you believe that Cousins can come out and defend at the 3? You believe Reeves at 185 can play the 3? Pope as a backup Center?

Padgett and Patterson are floor spacers and high IQ guys. Patterson was my 2nd pick for a reason. There’s no doubt to me he might give up some, but will make an impact himself.

Also, this is the type of front court to allow Mashburn room to post up, drive and take adv in the half court. He was the best Uk player in modern history.

Mike Phillips is better than giving credit too for this matchup.

I also have the ability to play Mashburn at the 4- - in my opinion - many more options, guys that can make winning plays, proven.

I love our recent guys, but that were more prone to turnovers, dumb shots & playing the nba defense

You make amazing points and I’ve genuinely considered all these. This is not easy and I’m not confident in my vote at all, tbh.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

You make amazing points and I’ve genuinely considered all these. This is not easy and I’m not confident in my vote at all, tbh.

When in doubt, take a look at those benches. His best player off the bench is Pelphrey and Phillips. Then there's a pretty steep drop off.

This game lends itself to uptempo. That's not a game for Bradley, whose best work came in the halfcourt.

Mashburn was also historically someone who couldn't stay out of foul trouble in a big game. I can afford an off night from any two guys because of my depth, but if he has an off night from Murray or Mashburn, it's over.

 

[jrpross]

Man, I came into this one assuming SOS would take it, but Lukasz makes some really good points. I’m gonna have to chew on this for a while.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Man, I came into this one assuming SOS would take it, but Lukasz makes some really good points. I’m gonna have to chew on this for a while.

Look at it objectively. Give these guys a fair player rating:

Wall (9.7) vs. Rondo (9.0) = Wall +7
Meeks (9.3) vs. Murray (9.3) = tie
Reeves (9.0) vs. Mashburn (9.8) = Mashburn +9
Washington (8.9) vs. Padgett (8.9) = tie
Cousins (9.5) vs. Patterson (8.9) = Cousins +6

Then compare the benches. I think I have an advantage there with guys who can score (Herro, Keldon) and defend (Wallace, Hanson). Plus, there's the Pope factor. He's not going to let Boogie slip off the competitive cliff in this one.

 

[jrpross]

Look at it objectively. Give these guys a fair player rating:

Wall (9.7) vs. Rondo (9.0) = Wall
Meeks (9.2) vs. Murray (9.2) = tie
Reeves (9.0) vs. Mashburn (9.8) = Mashburn
Washington (8.8) vs. Padgett (8.8) = tie
Cousins (9.5) vs. Patterson (8.8) = Cousins

Then compare the benches. I think I have an advantage there with guys who can score (Herro, Keldon) and defend (Wallace, Hanson). Plus, there's the Pope factor. He's not going to let Boogie slip off the competitive cliff in this one.

I would rank Murray a little higher than Meeks and Patterson a little higher, though still not as high as Boogie. You’ve definitely got the bench advantage though. Your earlier point about Cason as a defender may be the tipping point for me.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I would rank Murray a little higher than Meeks and Patterson a little higher, though still not as high as Boogie. You’ve definitely got the bench advantage though. Your earlier point about Cason as a defender may be the tipping point for me.

Hanson was an elite defender as well. 6'8" and was everything we wanted Jarred Vanderbilt to be. Strong rebounder, 2 blocks per game, consistently around 2 steals per game. He was the heart and soul of the probation teams for two years. He could also shoot the three, hitting on around 35% from three in his two seasons here.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

When in doubt, take a look at those benches. His best player off the bench is Pelphrey and Phillips. Then there's a pretty steep drop off.

This game lends itself to uptempo. That's not a game for Bradley, whose best work came in the halfcourt.

Mashburn was also historically someone who couldn't stay out of foul trouble in a big game. I can afford an off night from any two guys because of my depth, but if he has an off night from Murray or Mashburn, it's over.

In what world is a freshman bench in the postseason a good thing? How deep of a bench do you need? 8 guys? 10 guys?

Where I have you beat is that all my guys can play 35 + minutes. Murray is my back up 1 - Patterson - Mashburn back up 4.

I don’t know much about the older guys. I’ve read enough to know- and seen enough to know I’ll take a Mike Pratt over a Tyler Herro.
Heck he was a 19/9 guy on a UK team that lost ONE Game. He’s 6’4 217 senior where his game would translate

I have THREE guys who played huge roles on national championship teams.

I’ll give you Reggie Hanson. He was one I wanted but overall my bench fits needs- yours are just recent names that draw to the eyes.

Voters, think about Rondo in that full court press- or fast paced Pope offense. Pick your poison but this isn’t no BCG led offense attack anymore. Rondo even said he felt held back and still led in assists and steals in respective seasons

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

In what world is a freshman bench in the postseason a good thing? How deep of a bench do you need? 8 guys? 10 guys?

Where I have you beat is that all my guys can play 35 + minutes. Murray is my back up 1 - Patterson - Mashburn back up 4.

I don’t know much about the older guys. I’ve read enough to know- and seen enough to know I’ll take a Mike Pratt over a Tyler Herro.
Heck he was a 19/9 guy on a UK team that lost ONE Game. He’s 6’4 217 senior where his game would translate

I have THREE guys who played huge roles on national championship teams.

I’ll give you Reggie Hanson. He was one I wanted but overall my bench fits needs- yours are just recent names that draw to the eyes.

Your entire starting five is recent names as well, so isn't that a moot point?

I respect your draft selections. You've got a great team, including the guy I wanted most in Mashburn. But playing the "you just took recent guys" argument doesn't really solve the question about which team can win this game, does it? The fact is, both of us have a great team. In my opinion, these might be the two best teams in the tourney from a balance standpoint.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Your entire starting five is recent names as well, so isn't that a moot point?

I respect your draft selections. You've got a great team, including the guy I wanted most in Mashburn. But playing the "you just took recent guys" argument doesn't really solve the question about which team can win this game, does it? The fact is, both of us have a great team. In my opinion, these might be the two best teams in the tourney from a balance standpoint.

We were talking about “bench” guys/depth.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

We were talking about “bench” guys/depth.

If that's the case, we're still left with the legitimate dilemma of can those guys from the past shoot? For example, put Rod Rhodes in the 1970s and he's probably taken in the top 30 picks of this draft instead of going undrafted. Why? Because he'd be one of those guys who our fans would assume would be a great shooter in the modern age because he could do everything else.

But we know the reality on Rhodes. He was a terrible three-point threat, and it's why he went undrafted.

There was a real three-point sample size with him, just like there was one with Keldon, Hanson, Wallace, and Herro: guys who all shot 35% or higher from three point range.

There isn't a three-point sample size with guys like James Lee or Mike Pratt, so objectively, that lends itself to conjecture. Maybe they would be great in a game like this. Maybe they wouldn't. There's no real way to tell. They're both perimeter guys who may or may not be good three point shooters. That's a heck of a roll of the dice.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

If that's the case, we're still left with the legitimate dilemma of can those guys from the past shoot? For example, put Rod Rhodes in the 1970s and he's probably taken in the top 30 picks of this draft instead of going undrafted. Why? Because he'd be one of those guys who our fans would assume would be a great shooter in the modern age because he could do everything else.

But we know the reality on Rhodes. He was a terrible three-point threat, and it's why he went undrafted.

There was a real three-point sample size with him, just like there was one with Keldon, Hanson, Wallace, and Herro: guys who all shot 35% or higher from three point range.

There isn't a three-point sample size with guys like James Lee or Mike Pratt, so objectively, that lends itself to conjecture. Maybe they would be great in a game like this. Maybe they wouldn't. There's no real way to tell. They're both perimeter guys who may or may not be good three point shooters. That's a heck of a roll of the dice.

Hanson shot so good he made 15 3’s his senior year. I don’t know about Pratt and Lee shooting but I know they were not drafted to be knocked down shooters kinda like Pope wasn’t drafted to give you big minutes at center.

I’m confident in the bench guys I chose. In the national championship game- the announcer were talking of James Lee to be the best 6th man in the country- if not for him , Kentucky would have never got the Goose. He and Mashburn will be best friends.

My “shooters” are Murray, Pelphrey and Padgett. Mashburn can do it all. Patterson even can knock it down. Mid range was sweet too. Bradley made just as many as Herro did.
Bradley strengths are defense to add

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Hanson shot so good he made 15 3’s his senior year. I don’t know about Pratt and Lee shooting but I know they were not drafted to be knocked down shooters kinda like Pope wasn’t drafted to give you big minutes at center.

I’m confident in the bench guys I chose. In the national championship game- the announcer were talking of James Lee to be the best 6th man in the country- if not for him , Kentucky would have never got the Goose. He and Mashburn will be best friends.

My “shooters” are Murray, Pelphrey and Padgett. Mashburn can do it all. Patterson even can knock it down. Mid range was sweet too. Bradley made just as many as Herro did.
Bradley strengths are defense to add

Full body of work. Hanson took 96 threes as a junior and made 35 for 37% from three point range. He's a legit threat from beyond the arc. Pitino didn't allow him to shoot as much as a senior, but his stroke was always there.

I think the "dog fight" in this game also could define the final outcome. Keldon, Hanson, and Wallace are all legitimate defenders, and they don't give up anything from the perimeter when they're in the game. They can all defend and shoot.

Wallace was so absurdly undervalued in this draft because of the Calipari and tournament flame out factor. So the "recency bias" can clearly work both ways. But he was our only player to show up on both ends of the court in the tourney. He can, and will defend Murray a ton in this game.

Meanwhile, who do you have to check Meeks and Reeves?

 

[LukaszObrzut]

I do want to add- this is all in good fun @Son_Of_Saul has been great for this contest. Always fun to have the participation like this matchup has brought.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Full body of work. Hanson took 96 threes as a junior and made 35 for 37% from three point range. He's a legit threat from beyond the arc. Pitino didn't allow him to shoot as much as a senior, but his stroke was always there.

I think the "dog fight" in this game also could define the final outcome. Keldon, Hanson, and Wallace are all legitimate defenders, and they don't give up anything from the perimeter when they're in the game. They can all defend and shoot.

Wallace was so absurdly undervalued in this draft because of the Calipari and tournament flame out factor. So the "recency bias" can clearly work both ways. But he was our only player to show up on both ends of the court in the tourney. He can, and will defend Murray a ton in this game.

Meanwhile, who do you have to check Meeks and Reeves?

Bench only guys. That’s a good maybe someone can chime in.

Who has more fight- based on my research and quotes I’ll put my guys against anyone- James Lee, Mike Phillips, Ramel Bradley, Pelphrey & Pratt.

As for Reeves and Meeks. You cannot play them both. You can try. I know Reeves can’t check Mashburn. That’s part why Kentucky needed 100 most nights to win.

But what i do think Mashburn and Murray along with the proven winners on my bench can bully Reeves , Meeks and Herro. I personally feel you’d have to start Keldon.

Wallace will defend Murray a lot? Who is not playing?

 

[JonathanW]

The average poster on this website is over 50 years old. Many of them know about our older generation players. Additionally, it's not like Wall and Cousins are throwaways. They are very good players by any historic metric. Same for Meeks, Reeves, Washington, etc.

I think I built a good team. People keep demeaning it by acting like we have a substantial sample size for guys from the 1950s and 1960s. Do we actually have that sample size? There was no three-point line until the 1980s. There's plenty of great players out there who can't shoot from three in any era: Rhodes, Rondo, Andrew Harrison, Bledsoe, Briscoe, Goodwin, etc. We know, verifiably, that they were bad shooters; however, we can only guess if some of UK's greats from the past can actual shoot consistently from three.

People should take that into account more than the "recency bias" claim. You're gambling by taking an older generation guard or wing because we simply don't know how well they'd shoot from three.

There was no "demeaning" your team. I said it was a tough one to pick, honestly maybe the 2 best teams, this one should have been the finals. Often, especially when the talent is near equal, it comes down to matchups.

Well, you do kinda know for a few of them. For example, Dampier became a very good 3pt shooter in the ABA. I never saw him play, but have no doubt Grevey would have been too. Givens & Riley & Pratt, IDK, maybe or maybe not. But Pratt was the only pre-3pt-shot guy in this game.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Bench only guys. That’s a good maybe someone can chime in.

Who has more fight- based on my research and quotes I’ll put my guys against anyone- James Lee, Mike Phillips, Ramel Bradley, Pelphrey & Pratt.

As for Reeves and Meeks. You cannot play them both. You can try. I know Reeves can’t check Mashburn. That’s part why Kentucky needed 100 most nights to win.

But what i do think Mashburn and Murray along with the proven winners on my bench can bully Reeves , Meeks and Herro. I personally feel you’d have to start Keldon.

Wallace will defend Murray a lot? Who is not playing?

Wallace is my first guard/wing off the bench. He's getting 20 minutes in this game, and when he's in there, he's hounding Murray. Meanwhile, Murray's also chasing Meeks off of screens. That's not college version Jamal's strength. I want to wear down Murray. I feel like taking him out of this game ensures a close win for my guys. I'm going to let Mashburn eat and try to stop everyone else on your team.

Still plenty of minutes for Meeks to be on the court in the rotation.

Regarding your point of Mashburn playing the three, do you remember how much he struggled guarding guys like Sprewell and Houston, even in his SEC days? Those were bad matchups for him. Reeves and Keldon Johnson are similar types of players that he would struggle to defend. And we'll be rotating two or three guys like that all game against Mashburn.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Wallace is my first guard/wing off the bench. He's getting 20 minutes in this game, and when he's in there, he's hounding Murray. Meanwhile, Murray's also chasing Meeks off of screens. That's not college version Jamal's strength. I want to wear down Murray. I feel like taking him out of this game ensures a close win for my guys. I'm going to let Mashburn eat and try to stop everyone else on your team.

Still plenty of minutes for Meeks to be on the court in the rotation.

Regarding your point of Mashburn playing the three, do you remember how much he struggled guarding guys like Sprewell and Houston, even in his SEC days? Those were bad matchups for him. Reeves and Keldon Johnson are similar types of players that he would struggle to defend. And we'll be rotating two or three guys like that all game against Mashburn.

Honestly not worried about Meeks - he and Reeves both give me I’ll score a lot of points but give up a lot too- and if I’m not hitting, what else do I provide- which ultimately doesn’t win a lot of games against the best competition.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

I’m not arguing Mashburn on Reeves. If it becomes a problem (I see it being more of a problem for you) since Reeves wasn’t great at defending middle of the road SeC guys- we will adjust.

But all honesty, I can say with 100% certain if you put Reeves on Mash you’ll have to bring a double or he’s not lasted before the 1st tv timeout.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

I overestimate my team, I suppose.
Irony is- at UK Washington was the type of player I liked most over the streaky shooters who seemed to get cold at wrong time or couldn’t guard a walk on from dribbling into the lane.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

I hope Pope has brought back some of the teams in the 90s and before.. just something different watching those teams.

That’s what I was going for in building this team- are you playing for Kentucky or the NBA? How bad do you want to win a championship?

Surely wouldn’t run to put an Arkansas shirt on for likes

 

[LukaszObrzut]

 

[LukaszObrzut]

If anyone would like to reconsider their vote after arguments, I have no problem.

 

[DraftCat]

@LukaszObrzut Thanks for joining another draft... hope to see you comment and stick around the discussions!

Rough round