UK Draft Round 1 - Son_Of_Saul vs. jrpross

[DraftCat]

Welcome to March Madness this is Round 1 of the 2024 UK Draft. (Click Here for Bracket).

Voters - Please vote for the team you believe would win in a 1 game elimination format. You will be able to change your vote and voting period is open for 48 hours. If a tie should occur I will extend the voting by another 2 hours until the tie is broken. Your vote will be visible.


@Son_Of_Saul - John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Jodie Meeks, Antonio Reeves, PJ Washington, Keldon Johnson,Tyler Herro, Mark Pope, Reggie Hanson, Cason Wallace, Jarrod Polson

vs.

@jrpross - Cliff Hagan, Malik Monk, Oscar Tshiebwe, Brandon Knight, Louie Dampier, Darius Miller, Nick Richards, Erik Daniels, Sean Woods, Heshimu Evans, Matt Heissenbuttel

 

[jrpross]

Dangit. Of course I’d start out against @Son_Of_Saul 😂

In all seriousness, though, I love the team I was able to build, both in talent and balance. And I think it stands up to any roster out there. Here’s my pitch…

I wanted to start three guards. Knight, Monk, and Dampier are all gunners. They’re scoring machines. And Wall notwithstanding, Reeves and Meeks weren’t known for their defense, both with a dws under 1. They will score at will against his starters. Fun fact about Dampier; he played before the 3-point line in college, but when he went to the ABA, he set records for 3 point%. Not to mention occasionally leading the league in assists. Obviously I know we’re not considering these guys as Pros, but I brought that up just to illustrate his capabilities because those statistics weren’t available in college.

Hagan is a tough one because very few of us saw him play. So you kind of have to adjust his greatness to this era. And make no mistake; he was a monster. He could play the 2-4. He averaged 20 ppg twice, 16.5 rebounds as a sophomore and was a 2x AA. He’s the best player on the floor in this game. Consider him a Mashburn level impact player

So there’s my 1-4. I’d start the NPOY and best rebounder in Kentucky history at the 5 and between him and Cliff, they’d be grabbing up those (few) misses from the guards. SOS has no one who can grab rebounds at their level. Miller is a do-everything guy and Daniels was a versatile a forward as you could ask for off the bench if I need to switch it up for size. And if Oscar has trouble protecting the rim when Wall penetrates, I’ve got an athletic 7-footer ready to come in.

SOS has a killer team, but don’t let recency bias blind you to how good my old dudes are. I look at the lineup like this.

Knight < Wall
Dampier > Meeks
Monk > Reeves
Hagan > Washington
Oscar ~ Cousins (I almost conceded this one to Cuz, but you could argue that Oscar was more impactful in college. One was the NPOY, one wasn’t…)

Keldon Johnson is probably a step up from any one individual on my bench but Miller isn’t far behind. He just wasn’t relied on as much. Ultimately I’d call the benches a wash. But I love my team makeup. My guards have the most offensive punch out there. I have 3 legit point guards, I have 3 versatile forwards coming off my bench. My centers are opposite ends of the spectrum, which was very purposeful. This team is a mix of shooting, passing, rebounding, athleticism and physicality. Cmon, folks. Give these old guys some love and do the right thing 😎

 

[Fox2monk]

Damn close matchup

Oscar vs Cousins
Knight vs. Wall
Monk vs Meeks
Miller vs Reeves
Richards vs Washington

Hagan, Dampier, Daniels, Woods, Evans. vs. Johnson, Herro, Pope, Hansen, Wallace.

You have freshman talent vs established Vetrans, lots of shooting on both sides.

This is about as close as a matchup can get.

On the surface I’d give the small edge to Saul because overall lineup versatility and a little more shooting overall. JPRoss’s team has a lot of vets who played a lot of college games and the best rebounder ever. The main worry I’d have is the versatility of Saul’s lineup taking Oscar off the bounce. Then I look at eras they played and it’s hard to say how the old guys would do but I’ve watched Dampier play as an old man and he still doesn’t miss. I can see this going either way.

 

[jrpross]

Damn close matchup

Oscar vs Cousins
Knight vs. Wall
Monk vs Meeks
Miller vs Reeves
Richards vs Washington

Hagan, Dampier, Daniels, Woods, Evans. vs. Johnson, Herro, Pope, Hansen, Wallace.

You have freshman talent vs established Vetrans, lots of shooting on both sides.

This is about as close as a matchup can get.

On the surface I’d give the small edge to Saul because overall lineup versatility and a little more shooting overall. JPRoss’s team has a lot of vets who played a lot of college games and the best rebounder ever. The main worry I’d have is the versatility of Saul’s lineup taking Oscar off the bounce. Then I look at eras they played and it’s hard to say how the old guys would do but I’ve watched Dampier play as an old man and he still doesn’t miss. I can see this going either way.

That was my worry with Oscar and why I made sure to get Nick Richards as my backup. He’s not Anything Davis, but he’s a solid rim protector at 7’ tall with great hops and quickness. He would get a lot of run in a game like this because of the athleticism and penetration of a team like SOS.

 

[Aike]

Going with Saul. I think Coach Pope will push Cuz to be the best version of himself. And I don’t trust Oscar as far as I can throw him.

 

[nickhorvathsuxazz]

It's hard to vote against a team sporting Cuz/JW, but jr's argument is strong. Let's hear SoS's response, but it better be good

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I respect @jrpross as a poster and I respect his player assortment.

His strengths:

1. He has two OGs in Hagan and Dampier. Those guys are pure winners.
2. His collection of combo forwards gives him some defensive matchup advantages against most teams. Evans, Miller, and Daniels can and will guard just about anyone. They would be better suited guarding a guy like Mashburn - who loved to start on the perimeter - than trying to check a guy like PJ Washington, who loved to live on the low block.
3. Monk and Knight is a formidable backcourt. Both can go off for 25 points. If they get hot, they can bury teams quickly.
4. He has Oscar, who will clean up a lot of the misses on the offensive glass.

His weaknesses against my guys:

1. With all due respect to Dampier, if a legion of SEC athletes can't contain Meeks, how is Dampier going to do it? Even if you contain Meeks, I still have a 44% three point shooter in Reeves. You can maybe stop one 41 to 44% three point shooter in a rock fight. Can you stop two? What about when Herro checks in? That's a lot of containment from your perimeter defenders. If you use your best wing defenders, you're giving up scoring because as good as Evans and Daniels are on defense, they're not the most fluid players offensively. Miller might be your best bet, but again, he's a limited scoring option.
2. PJ at 6'8" 230lbs is going to physically dominate Hagan, who was at max 6'5" 210lb in college. That's just a horrible matchup for @jrpross. PJ is going to live at the line in that matchup.
3. Jrpross has four guys capable of getting you 20+ points on any given night, but I've got 5 or 6. There's a big scoring drop off after his first four scorers. On the other hand, my roster has two natural scorers coming off the bench to supplement my five starters, who can all score.
4. Wall is handling Knight, physically and in terms of pace. Jrpross' roster lends itself to a halfcourt game, and that would work if I had moderate shooting, but I have guys who can not only shoot from the wings, but also shoot at high clips, ensuring scores on most possessions. If @jrpross decides to go big with guys like Evans or Daniels at the 3, I can still go with a big matchup with Oscar being forced to guard Boogie one-on-one. As we all know, Oscar wasn't the best defender, and I'm afraid Cousins would have a huge advantage over him in a half-court game.
5. We're going to run, run, run. Wall in transition with Meeks and Reeves floating to the corners in transition. PJ playing bully ball down low. Cousins giving Oscar everything he can handle down low. Oscar's not going to get 20 rebounds against Big Cuz, so in a way, Cousins' presence at the least battles Oscar to a standstill in the bully ball realm.

I really like my matchup advantage at the 4 spot. PJ presents some massive issues. You put Hagan on him, and you're giving up 20 pounds and four inches. You put Daniels on him, and PJ is going to demand a double team.

This would be an all-out war and @jrpross would try to force a rock fight in a game like this. That's going to be hard to do with the level of scoring we have, however, and with Wall forcing pace off of every loose rebound.

 

[jrpross]

I respect @jrpross as a poster and I respect his player assortment.

His strengths:

1. He has two OGs in Hagan and Dampier. Those guys are pure winners.
2. His collection of combo forwards gives him some matchup advantages against most teams. Evans, Miller, and Daniels can and will guard just about anyone. They would be better suited guarding a guy like Mashburn than trying to check a guy like PJ Washington.
3. Monk and Knight is a formidable backcourt. Both can go off for 25 points. If they get hot, they can bury teams quickly.
4. He has Oscar, who will clean up a lot of the misses on the offensive glass.

His weaknesses against my guys:

1. With all due respect to Dampier, if a legion of SEC athletes can't contain Meeks, how is Dampier going to do it? Even if you contain Meeks, I still have a 44% three point shooter in Reeves.
2. PJ at 6'8" 230lbs is going to physically dominate Hagan, who was at max 6'5" 210lb in college. That's just a horrible matchup for @jrpross. PJ is going to live at the line in that matchup.
3. Jrpross's only offensively explosive guys are Monk and Knight. Two good players, but also two guys who go on cold droughts at times.
4. Wall is handling Knight, physically and in terms of pace. Jrpross' roster lends itself to a halfcourt game, and that would work if I had moderate shooting, but I have guys who can not only shoot from the wings, but also shoot at high clips, ensuring scores on most possessions. If @jrpross decides to go big with guys like Evans or Daniels at the 3, I can still go with a big matchup with Oscar being forced to guard Boogie one-on-one. As we all know, Oscar wasn't the best defender, and I'm afraid Cousins would have a huge advantage over him in a half-court game.
5. We're going to run, run, run. Wall in transition with Meeks and Reeves floating to the corners in transition. PJ playing bully ball down low. Cousins giving Oscar everything he can handle down low. Oscar's not going to get 20 rebounds against Big Cuz, so in a way, Cousins' presence at the least battles Oscar to a standstill in the bully ball realm.

I really like my matchup advantage at the 4 spot. PJ presents some massive issues. You put Hagan on him, and you're giving up 20 pounds and four inches. You put Daniels on him, and PJ is going to demand a double team.

This would be an all-out war and @jrpross would try to force a rock fight in a game like this. That's going to be hard to do with the level of scoring we have, however, and with Wall forcing pace off of every loose rebound.

Ehh I gotta take issue with Knight and Monk being my only offensively explosive guys. Dampier very much for that mold as well. He had 11 games of 30+ points and 3 of 40+. And while Hagan’s game was more that of a traditional PF, he held the record for points in a game at 51 till Issel came round.

Your point about Hagan at 6’4” is valid though. A PF that size wasn’t unusual at the time but I wish there was some way to equate a 6’4” power forward from 1953 to today. It feels odd to say “hey everybody just pretend Hagan is like 6’8”” 😂

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Ehh I gotta take issue with Knight and Monk being my only offensively explosive guys. Dampier very much for that mold as well. He had 11 games of 30+ points and 3 of 40+. And while Hagan’s game was more that of a traditional PF, he held the record for points in a game at 51 till Issel came round.

I concede that point. I'm going to make an adjustment to my post out of fairness to your argument.