This Loss is on Cal and being Lottery Crazy

[brianpoe]

I am the only person upset about the loss and how this team has played recently? You sure about that? Or are you convinced me and all the other posters on this board who are expressing critical sentiments are one in the same?

It's easy to see who is working hard by watching the games. You know, the action that occurs while the clock ticks. You see who is working hard by moving their feet on defense, working for position on offense, and fighting for position for rebounds and consequently making an effort to secure the ball on a rebound.

I did not need a press conference for a coach to tell me a players effort is not where it needs to be. Yes, Skal's effort was better than previous games, but that is only because it was previously horrendous.

Strange individual aren't you? No wonder you post so little over such a long period of time.

First you come across telling Cal what he doesnt realize, then you get mad at posters disagreeing with you, then you say they are getting upset, then you say you and others are mad because we lost...


I am not going to argue with the results on the floor, not good. No toughness, no fight, and much less skill than we all expected.

I simply disagreed with your take that Cal is only concerned with the lottery, I believe it is more about preparing those he thinks we will need in March.

 

[WhiteCityCat1]

Great post 100% true

I have posted similar stuff in other threads.

yes you have. noted

 

[.S&C.]

This has always been the issue with the OAD. What happens when they are projected gone, you've got a huge class coming in, but it appears you need some to return. Briscoe isn't going pro unless he really wants to. Skal will not see a top draft pick playing like he is. There's just no way an NBA GM is going to do it. I'd love to know where Ulis is going right now? So what do you do?

You stay the course. You play them, and honestly hope they improve and roll. I like briscoe, but he's another lanky guard who can't help on both ends. If cal is at fault for anything, it's his stubbornness to recruit floor spacers. Oh and he knows people want it. He's well aware. Cal has an image of what he wants his UK teams to look like, and it's not wiltjer or kids like LK. what's sad is he probably has a few more titles allowing it. Fans should be screaming for this change by now.

we are just going to have to roll with this because this is how it works. You will not always be great with a OAD system. You are depending on a more self-centered way of operating, and it's just not always going to work for the team. Cal sells it beautifully, but it's a hard system to make perfect. We've been lucky we havent had more problems to this point.

Let's see what happens. The potential of this team is there, as you should have seen yesterday. Cal has a team of OAD individuals/underperforming upperclassman and no shooters. Most of everyone playing individually and they still can win. It's the only sport like it.

Also Skal shouldn't be starting. Play him lots of minutes fine, but starting him actually does send a negative message to other players.

 

[WhiteCityCat1]

Strange individual aren't you? No wonder you post so little over such a long period of time.

First you come across telling Cal what he doesnt realize, then you get mad at posters disagreeing with you, then you say they are getting upset, then you say you and others are mad because we lost...


I am not going to argue with the results on the floor, not good. No toughness, no fight, and much less skill than we all expected.

I simply disagreed with your take that Cal is only concerned with the lottery, I believe it is more about preparing those he thinks we will need in March.

Well said sir.

 

[MegaBlue05]

Amateur coaches are the worst.

 

[Jamal Sunburn]

Also Skal shouldn't be starting. Play him lots of minutes fine, but starting him actually does send a negative message to other players.

Exactly. It does send a negative message to the other players and recruits.

 

[The_Answer1313]

This has always been the issue with the OAD. What happens when they are projected gone, you've got a huge class coming in, but it appears you need some to return. Briscoe isn't going pro unless he really wants to. Skal will not see a top draft pick playing like he is. There's just no way an NBA GM is going to do it. I'd love to know where Ulis is going right now? So what do you do?

You stay the course. You play them, and honestly hope they improve and roll. I like briscoe, but he's another lanky guard who can't help on both ends. If cal is at fault for anything, it's his stubbornness to recruit floor spacers. Oh and he knows people want it. He's well aware. Cal has an image of what he wants his UK teams to look like, and it's not wiltjer or kids like LK. what's sad is he probably has a few more titles allowing it. Fans should be screaming for this change by now.

we are just going to have to roll with this because this is how it works. You will not always be great with a OAD system. You are depending on a more self-centered way of operating, and it's just not always going to work for the team. Cal sells it beautifully, but it's a hard system to make perfect. We've been lucky we havent had more problems to this point.

Let's see what happens. The potential of this team is there, as you should have seen yesterday. Cal has a team of OAD individuals/underperforming upperclassman and no shooters. Most of everyone playing individually and they still can win. It's the only sport like it.

Also Skal shouldn't be starting. Play him lots of minutes fine, but starting him actually does send a negative message to other players.

Cal doesn't have an "image" he wants the team to look like. IMO Cal has always adapted to the teams he's had. It's what makes him a great coach. Before coming in, he was all dribble drive. In the six seasons he's been here, there's been alot of seasons we abandoned that style just because it didn't fit our personnel. The real issue is with the constantly changing of people coming and going, it takes awhile for Cal to realize how THIS team needs to play. Most of the time he figures it out. If he doesn't, well then you get the NIT team. He's the one that recruited Wiltjer and brought him to UK so I'm not sure why he would recruit someone that didn't fit his mold of player if he wasn't willing to adapt.

Your right. With the constant change your not going to be great all the time. Your gonna miss in recruiting from time to time. But there isn't a perfect system. Your not going to be consistently great with any system.

This has worked well going on 7 years now,

 

[The_Answer1313]

The only message it sends is that Cal understands small samples better than the fanbase does.

Who is starting is Skal's place? And how do you know they earned their playing time? And how much better do you think we are not starting Skal?

 

[d2atTech]

Great post. I don't always agree with how Cal divides the most minutes (nor does any other fan on any other team) but it's what gets the kind of talent get year in and year out. I trust that he Cal knows more than me and anyone else on this board.

if the goal is "college athletics" we need to worry more about developing a better system that allows and accomodates for both one-and-dones and multi-year players. if the goal is "making professionals" (which, when you think about it, is the goal of EVERY department in every university), then cal is bang on the money and is doing the right thing; we get more players into the nba than anyone else. the problem is that i am selfish and i want more championships.

 

[The_Answer1313]

if the goal is "college athletics" we need to worry more about developing a better system that allows and accomodates for both one-and-dones and multi-year players. if the goal is "making professionals" (which, when you think about it, is the goal of EVERY department in every university), then cal is bang on the money and is doing the right thing; we get more players into the nba than anyone else. the problem is that i am selfish and i want more championships.

But this is the way to more championships.

The only way your winning titles is to bring in the very best players. That gives you the best chance at times.

Cal has made this about the players........but it serves a duel purpose. By making it about them players (ie players first), we get the big time recruits and that's the major reason we have competed for a title 5 out of the last 6 years.

 

[blubo]

every uk loss brings the trolls slithering out of the slit trench like dung beetles resurfacing after a downpour, looking for another steamy pile of "sustenance."

 

[3rex]

Darius Miller disagrees with you...

The fact that you could only name one player may help prove his point.

 

[d2atTech]

The fact that you could only name one player may help prove his point.

poythress is another example. if he didnt get hurt last year, we would have had number nine

 

[TankedCat]

I complained alot more about December losses when Tubby was coach because I lost faith that the team was actually playing for March.

That isn't the case here - we're a handful of games into the season watching Duke, UNC and a host of others struggle - and the difference is we have a ton of upside.

Now maybe the players will develop and be a cohesive unit and we'll see another game like UK/Wichita St, or maybe they won't.

I understand the anger from losing to Ohio St, but I would not recommend going all in on Willis in December - and then expecting these guys to turn it on in March.

We've been lucky to have overwhelming talent make up for freshmen mistakes. This year its clear we don't so we're going to have growing pains.

Also, I don't see us as an NBA farm team - we're an NBA talent charter school - meaning that every year talented kids are going to want to come here - but that only continues if Cal continues to be a players first coach and is focusing on his most talented players even if that means basing it on potential and not in game evaluations.

I have no desire to go back to a 1 or 2 talented players surrounded by role players who take 3 years to contribute formula - which is exactly what some people are clamoring for in demanding Willis plays. That's a final four every 10 years approach to college basketball - just to make sure you can beat an Ohio State in December.

 

[aceman509]

But this is the way to more championships.

The only way your winning titles is to bring in the very best players. That gives you the best chance at times.

Cal has made this about the players........but it serves a duel purpose. By making it about them players (ie players first), we get the big time recruits and that's the major reason we have competed for a title 5 out of the last 6 years.

DING DING DING DING

Amazing how many still don't understand this. "Players first" is something that I do believe Cal truly follows, but it is also a bit of a charade in order to attract the very best players. And the best players help you win championships. That is why a lot of times you have to read between the lines on what Cal is saying. When he said that the 2010 draft was the biggest day in program history I was pretty mad because I didn't see then what I see now. Cal didn't really believe that. Well, he did to a degree, but what he really meant was that by getting those players drafted in the 1st round we were set up unbelievably well for the future. And then by making that comment, he showed future recruits what his goal really was (or at least what he says his goal is.) Cal is going to say over and over again that all he cares about is his players and their dreams, meaning the NBA. Just keep in mind Cal is partially lying. He does care, but when he says he doesn't care about winning championships he is lying. Cal wants to win titles just as badly as anyone else. But if he comes out and says that, his charade is up and it could hurt recruiting. Cal is always hedging his bets for the future. Always. The ONLY thing the man cares about at the end of the day is winning titles. Yes, he does care about the players, the fans etc. but if you really think about it, he cares because he needs to care to win a title.

 

[The_Answer1313]

It's the classic do something good for someone else and they will take care of you.

And Cal has even made mention to that.

By being a players first university and having them realize their dreams of making the NBA, in turn they take us to what we want...........titles and success on the court.

Cal's not dumb.

I do think he is genuine tho about the players coming first. And more importantly, the players feel its genuine too. You can tell by the amount of people that leave for the NBA, yet still keep in touch with him.

But every coach wants to win. He knows why he was brought here. And he's had huge success

 

[permdaddy]

DING DING DING DING

Amazing how many still don't understand this. "Players first" is something that I do believe Cal truly follows, but it is also a bit of a charade in order to attract the very best players. And the best players help you win championships. That is why a lot of times you have to read between the lines on what Cal is saying. When he said that the 2010 draft was the biggest day in program history I was pretty mad because I didn't see then what I see now. Cal didn't really believe that. Well, he did to a degree, but what he really meant was that by getting those players drafted in the 1st round we were set up unbelievably well for the future. And then by making that comment, he showed future recruits what his goal really was (or at least what he says his goal is.) Cal is going to say over and over again that all he cares about is his players and their dreams, meaning the NBA. Just keep in mind Cal is partially lying. He does care, but when he says he doesn't care about winning championships he is lying. Cal wants to win titles just as badly as anyone else. But if he comes out and says that, his charade is up and it could hurt recruiting. Cal is always hedging his bets for the future. Always. The ONLY thing the man cares about at the end of the day is winning titles. Yes, he does care about the players, the fans etc. but if you really think about it, he cares because he needs to care to win a title.

Cal says a lot of stuff that is meant for the recruits and their families. He says a lot of stuff that you can discard or read between the lines but he seems very genuine when speaking about it being about the kids. I don't believe a lot of the words that come out of coaches mouths but I believe Cal when he says it about them first. Of course he wants to win every game and every title but to say "at the end of the day the only thing the man cares about is winning titles" is completely false.

 

[Bobcat94]

Yeah I agree lets all o back to the days of Sheray Thomas, Bobby Perry, Shagari and others and struggle to even make the tournament. That's so much better than being in the hunt or a title every year.

 

[Blue_Reality]

And some never get it.
In the end this is an meaningless loss however embarrassing it was.

"Without victory, basketball has little meaning"

 

[Jamal Sunburn]

It's the classic do something good for someone else and they will take care of you.

And Cal has even made mention to that.

By being a players first university and having them realize their dreams of making the NBA, in turn they take us to what we want...........titles and success on the court.

Cal's not dumb.

I do think he is genuine tho about the players coming first. And more importantly, the players feel its genuine too. You can tell by the amount of people that leave for the NBA, yet still keep in touch with him.

But every coach wants to win. He knows why he was brought here. And he's had huge success

Again. I have no problem with being players first, but it should be every player first and within the team concept.

For example: What would make Patrick Patterson for the long term as a professional? Stretch his range out to 18 feet and include some 3's. Fine. That is perfect. But make sure those shots are within the context of team basketball and do not let him shoot them if he's missing enough to make it a detriment to the overall team.

There is a way to do both. And one players personal growth is not greater than the whole or another player's.

 

[turkeywildturkey]

We have had enough Lotto Picks. And he fails to realize that while it is nice to have Lotto Picks in the NBA, the majority of Kentucky Fans don't care about that.

Stop trying to make Skal another Lotto Pick.

We have other more deserving players on the team. Play Willis. Play Humph. Hell.... try Tai. Try Charles. Who cares. Play the players who want to play.

I'm tired of hearing, "Skal has had a great few days of practice." Listen, I don't believe you, you need more people.

If that's the case, how come none of it has translated into the actual games for over a month now?

I don't want to get down on the kid, because hopefully he turns it around. But willingly playing him, when he does not deserve to be out there is a disservice to THE TEAM, which this game is about, and the other players on the team.

And to be truthful it could be hurting future recruiting efforts if they show guys who are working hard and improving like Willis, but can't get on the court because a kid who is projected to be a Top 3 pick gets to run around the court, get pushed around, and get the ball taken from him from guards. Who would want to come here for that?

What if Skal has to come back next year? He won't play over the guys we have coming in if he plays like this.

And a lot of the same stuff can be said for Poythress too. He's been here 4 years and still looks clueless at times. Making stupid fouls. Not holding onto rebounds. You can't have muscles and not hold onto rebounds. And no, it's not even like KAZ situation where he just looks the part, because KAZ scored.

You're an idiot.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Again. I have no problem with being players first, but it should be every player first and within the team concept.

For example: What would make Patrick Patterson for the long term as a professional? Stretch his range out to 18 feet and include some 3's. Fine. That is perfect. But make sure those shots are within the context of team basketball and do not let him shoot them if he's missing enough to make it a detriment to the overall team.

There is a way to do both. And one players personal growth is not greater than the whole or another player's.

Agreed but when has it ever been about one person?

Last year's team he platooned because he had so many guys that were capable of playing and he wanted to showcase all of them. He didn't have to do that. He could have just started the best 5 and maybe went 7/8 deep like he does most seasons.

I don't think Cal has ever done things to the detriment of the team. If PP isn't hitting the outside shot, he's not going to tell him take more. And the thing about that, having him play on the outside and him knocking down that shot doesn't just help HIS NBA dream, but it also helps the TEAM.

And what was PP 3pt FG% that year? 35%. He was an average 3pt shooter so it had some benefit to not only him but the team as a whole

There is a way to do both. And I fail to see how we haven't done both. We have had 25 players drafted. We have also been to four final fours in the last six years. So how aren't we doing both here?

 

[.S&C.]

Cal doesn't have an "image" he wants the team to look like. IMO Cal has always adapted to the teams he's had. It's what makes him a great coach. Before coming in, he was all dribble drive. In the six seasons he's been here, there's been alot of seasons we abandoned that style just because it didn't fit our personnel. The real issue is with the constantly changing of people coming and going, it takes awhile for Cal to realize how THIS team needs to play. Most of the time he figures it out. If he doesn't, well then you get the NIT team. He's the one that recruited Wiltjer and brought him to UK so I'm not sure why he would recruit someone that didn't fit his mold of player if he wasn't willing to adapt.

Your right. With the constant change your not going to be great all the time. Your gonna miss in recruiting from time to time. But there isn't a perfect system. Your not going to be consistently great with any system.

This has worked well going on 7 years now,

You are right and wrong. Cal absolutely has an image of how he wants UK to look, and it's an NBA roster.

You are aware that Cal did NOT recruit Kyle Wiltjer right? Wiltjer committed to UK without ever stepping foot on campus. He was not a target of Cal. Now just think about that for a second. The purest shooter we've had at UK, was not recruited by cal. Did not take visits to UK. Cal was socked he even committed in the first place. There's ya go.

People need to educate themselves on these situations. I dont argue Cals methods should change but one. If someone still believes we do not need to start appreciating what the three point shot brings, then theres nothing that can be said. The evidence is overwhelming.

 

[Jamal Sunburn]

Agreed but when has it ever been about one person?

Last year's team he platooned because he had so many guys that were capable of playing and he wanted to showcase all of them. He didn't have to do that. He could have just started the best 5 and maybe went 7/8 deep like he does most seasons.

I don't think Cal has ever done things to the detriment of the team. If PP isn't hitting the outside shot, he's not going to tell him take more. And the thing about that, having him play on the outside and him knocking down that shot doesn't just help HIS NBA dream, but it also helps the TEAM.

And what was PP 3pt FG% that year? 35%. He was an average 3pt shooter so it had some benefit to not only him but the team as a whole

There is a way to do both. And I fail to see how we haven't done both. We have had 25 players drafted. We have also been to four final fours in the last six years. So how aren't we doing both here?

Exactly. But I am not talking about the teams of the past. This team. It looks like he has Skal out there and it is hurting the team.

There is no reason he should be starting over Marcus. And if healthy there is no reason Willis couldn't take some of Skal's minutes. Skal sitting could benefit him mentally and allow him to watch what's going on. And if they don't redshirt Tai, he should get an opportunity to see what he can do.

Listen, there have been only 2 times I've questioned what Cal has done strategy wise:

1.) I questioned the Archie Goodwin flying down the court and chucking up shots offense. But I only did that for a few games, when I realized Archie was the only dude on that team wanted to play or give any effort.

2.) And last year, I thought he could've given Marcus more time.

Other than that? Nothing. Starting the Harrison Twins? Nope. Playing the Twins at the end of the Wisconsin game? No, we won 38 games in a row and they've led us in huge games before without any flaws.

But right here, I know of Skal's immense talent. But right now, it looks like an effort and a mindset issue. Not boxing out your man. Getting the ball taken from you by guards. Being slow to close out on penetration in the paint. It might benefit him in the long run to watch or have his time on the court challenged. The best motivator is the bench.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Exactly. But I am not talking about the teams of the past. This team. It looks like he has Skal out there and it is hurting the team.

There is no reason he should be starting over Marcus. And if healthy there is no reason Willis couldn't take some of Skal's minutes. Skal sitting could benefit him mentally and allow him to watch what's going on. And if they don't redshirt Tai, he should get an opportunity to see what he can do.

Listen, there have been only 2 times I've questioned what Cal has done strategy wise:

1.) I questioned the Archie Goodwin flying down the court and chucking up shots offense. But I only did that for a few games, when I realized Archie was the only dude on that team wanted to play or give any effort.

2.) And last year, I thought he could've given Marcus more time.

Other than that? Nothing. Starting the Harrison Twins? Nope. Playing the Twins at the end of the Wisconsin game? No, we won 38 games in a row and they've led us in huge games before without any flaws.

But right here, I know of Skal's immense talent. But right now, it looks like an effort and a mindset issue. Not boxing out your man. Getting the ball taken from you by guards. Being slow to close out on penetration in the paint. It might benefit him in the long run to watch or have his time on the court challenged. The best motivator is the bench.

I think this season it's far too soon to rush to conclusions. This team is 9-2.

Can't argue that Skal has been a black hole, tho I disagree with him being on the bench. I think the big problem with Skal is that he hasn't played alot of basketball in the past year or so. Honestly, this is something we should have expected.

FWIW, Marcus, Skal and Poy have played roughly the same amount of minutes. Now some of that is due to Skal being in foul trouble but that wasn't the case Saturday.

The first six he played 30,21,13,24,29,29
The last five .....16,16,25,13,and 21.

So clearly his minutes are going down. Which I think illustrates the biggest issue for him.........he fouls way too much. And then he can't stay out there and contribute. He clearly is a work in progress on defense but if he just stayed out of foul trouble I still think he could help on the offensive side of the ball. Heck we've already seen him do it.

For the other two points.
1) I agree. Goodwin I believe drove Cal crazy tho. And Cal couldn't bench him because like you said he was our offense on that team. I think Cal had his hands tied with that team.

2) Cal was already platooning. He already got a bunch of very talented freshman to share minutes. For Marcus to play more, someone would have been losing more minutes. I don't know who on earth you take mins from on that team to give to Marcus. Lee's ability is somewhat limited. He's a terrible shooter. The main reason he's in there right now is because he's a beast on the offensive boards, something that Skal isn't.

 

[The_Answer1313]

You are right and wrong. Cal absolutely has an image of how he wants UK to look, and it's an NBA roster.

You are aware that Cal did NOT recruit Kyle Wiltjer right? Wiltjer committed to UK without ever stepping foot on campus. He was not a target of Cal. Now just think about that for a second. The purest shooter we've had at UK, was not recruited by cal. Did not take visits to UK. Cal was socked he even committed in the first place. There's ya go.

People need to educate themselves on these situations. I dont argue Cals methods should change but one. If someone still believes we do not need to start appreciating what the three point shot brings, then theres nothing that can be said. The evidence is overwhelming.

The bottom line is Kyle ended up here. Cal never saw Tai play in person either and he's here. You can say that Cal didn't make Kyle a priority and was busy watching other players, but to say he wasn't recruited isn't true. UK offered him a scholarship no? I don't care if Cal didn't watch him. The notion that Cal doesn't recruit shooters is silly. Did he not recruit Doron Lamb? Did he not recruit Devin Booker?

The 3 point shot is important but fluctuates wildly on a game by game basis. You know the saying......live by the 3, die by the 3. That's great for a less talented team. They can chuck threes and maybe they are hot one night and they knock off a giant. For a team with the talent of UK, much better to take the majority 2s as that is what is most consistent from game to game.

I'm not saying don't recruit people that can shoot the 3. Obviously that has a huge benefit but I don't see a case where Cal has clearly ignored that type of player either.

 

[d2atTech]

Cal says a lot of stuff that is meant for the recruits and their families. He says a lot of stuff that you can discard or read between the lines but he seems very genuine when speaking about it being about the kids. I don't believe a lot of the words that come out of coaches mouths but I believe Cal when he says it about them first. Of course he wants to win every game and every title but to say "at the end of the day the only thing the man cares about is winning titles" is completely false.

i agree with you cal. cal isn't always a straight shooter, but his actions show he is a 100% players first. hard to argue he doesn't do right by the kids. i respect the good he did for both liggins and jorts. also he stuck by the twins and saw them through to the nba.

 

[ganner918]

I agree. Play the kids that earn time. You do a kid no favors by handing them minutes. In the NBA, all these kids will be fighting for minutes.

Get them ready to compete.

Over this 5-game slump, Skal has only averaged 18 minutes per game. In that same stretch Lee has gotten 28.5 minutes excluding UCLA where he got hurt, and Poythress has averaged 23.6 minutes. Now, obviously Humphries hasn't played much but it looks like Cal is focusing on developing only one of them for major contributions by the end of this year. We've seen some flashes from Skal of things that could be very valuable to our team, and we have to be honest, Humphries has shown major limitations of his own at this point. Poythress and Lee aren't enough, we need another big man to be a major contributor this year, and like it or not Skal is our best hope (barring Wynyard being way, way ahead of where we expect).

I was screaming for Willis last game, but apparently he was hurt, and he's not a big man anyway. His minutes will come at the small forward spot, he won't give us the post up scoring or defense we so badly need, but I am hoping he can become a bigger contributor on the wing. He's one of our best offensive players - 2nd on the team in per-40 scoring, 3rd in efg%, 1st in Offensive Box Plus/Minus. We've been looking god-awful on offense, and Willis could be a big help there with more PT.