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The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

He blamed them for the war yesterday, so it isn't surprising that he isn't a fan.

There's been an Ukrainian civil war since 2014. Zelensky was elected on a platform of reconciliation which he abandoned in office. He's not innocent and/or helpless.

The rest of your post is an irrelevant, useless straw man argument. I've not met a pro-war funding voice that eschews them.
 
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There's been an Ukrainian civil war since 2014. Zelensky was elected on a platform of reconciliation which he abandoned in office. He's not innocent and/or helpless.

The rest of your post is an irrelevant, useless straw man argument. I've not met a pro-war funding voice that eschews them.

Ukrainian civil war? You mean the annexation of Crimea and wars in the Donbas started by Russia (aiding pro Russian separatists) ?

Zelensky was elected because his predecessor didn't tackle corruption like he stated he would. Zelensky ran predominantly as an anti corruption candidate.
 
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Ukrainian civil war? You mean the annexation of Crimea and wars in the Donbas started by Russia (aiding pro Russian separatists) ?

Zelensky was elected because his predecessor didn't tackle corruption like he stated he would. Zelensky ran predominantly as an anti corruption candidate.
He's unbelievable.
 
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If Trump announces that he wants out of NATO, would you support that?

I ask becuase I feel like it's the setup we are getting. Make unreasonable demands, complicate relationships with allies, blame NATO and then leave.

Looking across the EU political spectrum, it doesn’t seem like we have common interests or values with the leadership of most of those countries at this point.

At this point I’m a proponent of zero based budgeting everything in the federal government. That includes backing out of NATO as the default, and only reentering under acceptable terms with countries that share our values.
 
I'm a bit confused by Trump at this point. When he calls Zelensky a dictator but not Putin, it certainly raises an eyebrow.
I hope you have multiple eyebrows to work with: this is likely just the beginning of a tumultuous scrapping of security arraignments that predate the births of all commenting in this thread.

I wonder what Trump will call the Taiwanese government when China ups the ante.
 
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I'm a Trump fan but he's being pretty stupid on the war issue. Giving Russia everything they want and forcing Ukraine to accept it is hardly a negotiation.
Hey, look how well appeasement worked with stopping Hitler.

Engaging in negotiations over the fate of Ukraine without the participation of Ukraine is an exact repetition of Neville Chamberlain’s approach to Czechoslovakia in 1938.

Trump can declare “Pearce in Our Time,” and carry an umbrella.

History does repeat itself!!!!!
 
What we know. Ukraine needs US to keep losing this war without losing sovereignty. Putin is in control and is winning this war. Trump wants to sell Putin on the benefits of a resolution. Zelensky has no leverage. So, pump the brakes on what Trump says at the early stages of this negotiation and let’s see what transpires. Chamberlain claims at this point are ridiculous.
 
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- Can’t call Zel a dictator without calling Putin a dictator. Bad messaging and nonsensical. Trump may be forcing Europe to finally spend money to beef up their militaries and meet their NATO spending requirements by leaving them out of initial peace talks in Saudi, as part of a strategy. Poland, correct me if I’m wrong, is the only country meeting/exceeding their military obligations. Germany has a big election coming up Sunday which will dictate their future Ukrainian policy.

- Ukraine didn’t start the war 🤡, but we have a right to audit where all of this money went - about 67 billion (in mostly old and out of date gear that we were scrapping), and under 20 billion in grants for government and via the EDA, as I’ve discussed many times on here.

- Let’s see where the talks go. Now is NOT the time to be reducing sanctions on Russia, FFS.
 
Hey, look how well appeasement worked with stopping Hitler.

Engaging in negotiations over the fate of Ukraine without the participation of Ukraine is an exact repetition of Neville Chamberlain’s approach to Czechoslovakia in 1938.

Trump can declare “Pearce in Our Time,” and carry an umbrella.

History does repeat itself!!!!!
Had the United States funded a 3 year war between Germany and Czechoslovakia before Munich? It’s not the same, by an incredible degree.

It’s time for it to end. Ukraine is incredibly lucky to have as much territory left as they do.
 
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Chamberlain claims at this point are ridiculous.
So, entering negotiations regarding a Sovereign Nation without its participation is common or preferred?

Pray do tell Caveman, if the comparison to Chamberlain is “ridicules,” cite three other examples of negotiations over a sovereign nation without its participation . . . .

Or just two examples. . . .

Or even just one other example.

I can think of only two: and one is ongoing, and the other involved Chamberlain.
 
So, entering negotiations regarding a Sovereign Nation without its participation is common or preferred?

Pray do tell Caveman, if the comparison to Chamberlain is “ridicules,” cite three other examples of negotiations over a sovereign nation without its participation . . . .

Or just two examples. . . .

Or even just one other example.

I can think of only two: and one is ongoing, and the other involved Chamberlain.

Oh, is that what you meant? You were not implicating beyond the initial negotiations to the broader reference? If so, it’s even more ridiculous and meaningless. History is helpful. Being shackled by it is not. Let it play.
 
Had the Czechoslovakian government been overthrown by British intelligence and replaced with a puppet dictator who canceled elections, banned media (that wasn’t funded by British intelligence) and banned opposition political parties so it could conscript its citizens and force them to fight a British proxy war against Hitler prior to the British people throwing out the politicians in their government who’d staged the coup in Czechoslovakia and were instigating the war with Czechoslovakia as the proxy?

Just wondering if it’s apples to apples on these “sovereign countries”.

Ukraine is free to fight, the US just doesn’t need to be involved. And I’d like a full accounting of all the money we’ve already spent.
 
The entire text of what Vance said today. It’s like he’s talking directly to those of you in this thread who keep demanding that this war proceed.

“For three years, President Trump and I have made two simple arguments: first, the war wouldn't have started if President Trump was in office; second, that neither Europe, nor the Biden administration, nor the Ukrainians had any pathway to victory. This was true three years ago, it was true two years ago, it was true last year, and it is true today.

And for three years, the concerns of people who were obviously right were ignored. What is Niall's actual plan for Ukraine? Another aid package? Is he aware of the reality on the ground, of the numerical advantage of the Russians, of the depleted stock of the Europeans or their even more depleted industrial base?

Instead, he quotes from a book about George HW Bush from a different historical period and a different conflict. That's another currency of these people: reliance on irrelevant history.

President Trump is dealing with reality, which means dealing with facts. And here are some facts:

Number one, while our Western European allies' security has benefitted greatly from the generosity of the United States, they pursue domestic policies (on migration and censorship) that offend the sensibilities of most Americans and defense policies that assume continued over-reliance.

Number two, Russians have a massive numerical advantage in manpower and weapons in Ukraine, and that advantage will persist regardless of further Western aid packages. Again, the aid is *currently* flowing.

Number three, the United States retains substantial leverage over both parties to the conflict.

Number four, ending the conflict requires talking to the people involved in starting it and maintaining it.

Number five, the conflict has placed--and continues to place--stress on tools of American statecraft, from military stockpiles to sanctions (and so much else). We believe the continued conflict is bad for Russia, bad for Ukraine, and bad for Europe. But most importantly, it is bad for the United States.

Given the above facts, we must pursue peace, and we must pursue it now. President Trump ran on this, he won on this, and he is right about this. It is lazy, ahistorical nonsense to attack as "appeasement" every acknowledgment that America's interest must account for the realities of the conflict.

That interest--not moralisms or historical illiteracy--will guide President Trump's policy in the weeks to come.

And thank God for that.”
 
The entire text of what Vance said today. It’s like he’s talking directly to those of you in this thread who keep demanding that this war proceed.
I stopped after this line since you don't list who wants this the war to continue. You won't find anyone so it becomes all hypothetical.
 
That reminds me of his take down of the woke racists on twitter wrt to the h1b visa issue. I've been waiting for a long time for someone in position and with the gumption to speak plainly to these people.

The moralizing self-righteousness is, like the straw man, simply a means to deflect from the issue(s) at hand.
 
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I'm an 80s baby so I remain unconcerned about spending crazy amounts of money to kill Russian soldiers while Americans are not in danger.

For nothing but money, we might be able to hobble the Russians for two decades if we keep paying for the Ukrainians to bleed them. Why not?
 
I'm an 80s baby so I remain unconcerned about spending crazy amounts of money to kill Russian soldiers while Americans are not in danger.

For nothing but money, we might be able to hobble the Russians for two decades if we keep paying for the Ukrainians to bleed them. Why not?

Are they cloning Ukrainians somewhere we have not heard about? Americans are in danger, we just don’t talk about it.
 
I'm an 80s baby so I remain unconcerned about spending crazy amounts of money to kill Russian soldiers while Americans are not in danger.

For nothing but money, we might be able to hobble the Russians for two decades if we keep paying for the Ukrainians to bleed them. Why not?
Russia is already hobbled for decades going forward unless Trump doesn't make them pay for their destructive actions and eases sanctions against them. My guess is he lets them off.
 
Hank's post was so idiotic I can't think straight. We want Russia to be an ally and counterbalance the Chinese. It's not 1985.
 
Russia is already hobbled for decades going forward unless Trump doesn't make them pay for their destructive actions and eases sanctions against them. My guess is he lets them off.

And you suggested no one here wants the war to proceed. 😆

Might want to go back now and read the rest of what Vance posted.
 
Trump’s a deal maker. Russia could use some money. I wonder if he could just buy a few million Russians from Putin for you lunatics to slaughter, and we could drop the pretense about “protecting democracy”.
 
Yep, no one here wants the Ukraine war to keep rolling. Nope.

After reading the Ukraine War thread and the comments in this thread I am convinced that some of you are still living in 1985. The Cold War is over. Why hold onto it like you saw active combat with the Russians or something? Are you that brainwashed by the propaganda? Are you getting rich from the defense stocks? Why?
 
You want to ally with the Russians and I'm the idiot? They don't call you Waterhead for nothing, cochise.
Yeah. They have a nuclear arsenal that could end the world in 30 minutes. We want to become friends and draw that down significantly. Plus, they have a population in decline and a small GDP per person. They are not a threat other than their nuclear capabilities.
 
I’m mystified that anyone thinks Russia - at least under Putin - would ever be our ally. That guy was literally in East Germany when the wall fell - and he never got over it. He 100% considers Trump a useful idiot, and an easily manipulable one, at that.
 
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I'm an 80s baby so I remain unconcerned about spending crazy amounts of money to kill Russian soldiers while Americans are not in danger.

For nothing but money, we might be able to hobble the Russians for two decades if we keep paying for the Ukrainians to bleed them. Why not?
Because we don’t have money?
 
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