The spread offense vs great defense

[qwesley]

Both issues come down to not being great on the perimeter. Pretty good doesn't cut it. All 5 guys that have played the majority of minutes at the 3 positions have holes that can exploited.

The player we really could have used in the portal that we reached out to was Shannon, plus defender and good on offense. We were probably afraid of hurting CL's feelings.

 

[otis-gip]

Exactly right.

Cal is recruiting athletes and guys that can rebound and run his 1980's post offense, while everyone else is getting guards that can shoot and create their own shots.

Look at uNC, they run a post offense too, look where they're going.

It’s an outdated offense and we have a coach that doesn't see it.

UNC was in the championship game last year!

 

[kyjeff1]

UNC was in the championship game last year!

And promptly lost to a team that ran a spread offense.

I don't recall who uNC played throughout the tournament outside if duke in the ff and I'm too lazy to look right now, but here's the issue with your argument, uNC played 4 out, 1 in last year.

Brady Manek was a 4 that hit a high percentage from 3 point range. To me, that’s a spread offense.

They didn't have a 4 that could shoot this year.

 

[Big Cat fan]

When a bad shooting team shoots with bad players you lose. We lose because we haven't went to post players with there back to the basket in 7 yrars. Jeff you can like this no name guards and forwarðs taken bad shots but we will lose. Nothing is different, but we will lose.

KAT, Bam, PJ Washington and Richards in his last 15 games were the last. We got past the sweet 16 then. With post play. Everyone on tv says to feed Oscar.

don't get mad watching ku, hos, ucla, purdue, az, and others do well. Even duke figured out to post now. Those team will do will. Don't get mad.

 

[kyjeff1]

I need to clarify something that I didn’t make clear in my OP. My thoughts in the offense Cal runs, are a systemic problem, the defense is not systemic, it's a personnel and coaching issue that is a more recent issue.

The offense Cal runs is the same, no matter who his personnel is. He runs the same outdated post offense whether he has Cuz, KAT, or Skal.

He also runs the same defense, but it has proven to be an effective defense that fits the personnel he usually has.

The offense he runs does not fit the personnel he will have next year, but does anyone actually think he's going to run something different? I don't.

This season is over in my eyes, he hasn't fixed the issues this team has had all season, he might pull 1 rabbit out of his hat next week, but this team can't beat teams that run a spread offense with good guards, so it's time to talk about the bigger, more long term issues.

 

[kyjeff1]

When a bad shooting team shoots with bad players you lose. We lose because we haven't went to post players with there back to the basket in 7 yrars. Jeff you can like this no name guards and forwarðs taken bad shots but we will lose. Nothing is different, but we will lose.

KAT, Bam, PJ Washington and Richards in his last 15 games were the last. We got past the sweet 16 then. With post play. Everyone on tv says to feed Oscar.

don't get mad watching ku, hos, ucla, purdue, az, and others do well. Even duke figured out to post now. Those team will do will. Don't get mad.

I have no idea what you're trying to say, that’s one hell if a ramble.

 

[Big Cat fan]

I have no idea what you're trying to say, that’s one hell if a ramble.

Cal listened to the fans and we are a mess now.

 

[jbne222]

To be fair there are PLENTY of teams that run a spread offense but are not good offensive teams. It’s not about the style of offense run itself, it’s a lot more about the personnel. There are teams that can score regardless of how they play, and teams that can’t score regardless of how they play

 

[kyjeff1]

Cal listened to the fans and we are a mess now.

Oh my God, wow.
This should be good, please explain what Cal gave into the fans on.

 

[NoDef]

And the kicker is we really don't have a very strong defensive team that can shut folks down.

As others have noted....we have a lot of 4/5 stars but not many players.

Cals defense is outdated too. He likes to play big lineups and switch everything and insists that we pressure the ball 30 feet from the basket. It's a recipe to get beat off the bounce. You have to have shot blockers to cover that up and we don't have that with Oscar.

 

[kyjeff1]

To be fair there are PLENTY of teams that run a spread offense but are not good offensive teams. It’s not about the style of offense run itself, it’s a lot more about the personnel. There are teams that can score regardless of how they play, and teams that can’t score regardless of how they play

Right, but those teams are lower level teams that can’t attract or develop the guys to be great, this is Kentucky.

UK has huge advantages when it comes to recruiting, whether it be high school players or the portal, but Cal is using those advantages to get guys like Wheeler, Ware, CJ, Askew, Sarr, Ryan Harrow, Whitney etc…

Cal tries to bring in post players every year, he would be lost without one.

Look at the roster he'll have next year, it is perfect for a spread offense as long as some of these guys turn out to be good shooters, but Cal won't run a spread offense, he’s going to put Bradshaw in the post and that is just stupid.

 

[kyjeff1]

Cals defense is outdated too. He likes to play big lineups and switch everything and insists that we pressure the ball 30 feet from the basket. It's a recipe to get beat off the bounce. You have to have shot blockers to cover that up and we don't have that with Oscar.

100% agree. We will get beat by anyone that plays 5 out. Cal won't pull Oscar off the floor.

Heck, he had Oscare AND Ware in there against Vandy's spread offense. I have to wonder about Cal's mental health at this point.

 

[Big Cat fan]

Oh my God, wow.
This should be good, please explain what Cal gave into the fans on.

Are you new? Did the fans not want Cal in 2016 to go for shooters because everyone can be Curry? Wanted shooters and not shot makers?

 

[kyjeff1]

Are you new? Did the fans not want Cal in 2016 to go for shooters because everyone can be Curry? Wanted shooters and not shot makers?

You think Cal took orders and/or suggestions from the fans? Tell me more.

So you think UK fans knew anything about Murray befire he committed? Was it a bad thing that Cal landed Murray? This is new, why was that a bad thing?

Or are you talking about the 2016 recruiting class with Fox & Monk that was one shot away from the FF and only had 5 losses?

Honestly, I thought you were talking about this season, I'm not sure why the hell you went all the way back to 2016, which makes no sense.

But don't get it twisted, Cal has never changed course because the fans told him to. What a stupid take.

It’s 10 in the morning, are you drunk?

 

[Big Cat fan]

You think Cal took orders and/or suggestions from the fans? Tell me more.

So you think UK fans knew anything about Murray befire he committed? Was it a bad thing that Cal landed Murray? This is new, why was that a bad thing?

Or are you talking about the 2016 recruiting class with Fox & Monk that was one shot away from the FF and only had 5 losses?

Honestly, I thought you were talking about this season, I'm not sure why the hell you went all the way back to 2016, which makes no sense.

But don't get it twisted, Cal has never changed course because the fans told him to. What a stupid take.

It’s 10 in the morning, are you drunk?

So you not noted that we stopped going to our post up game over the years, and drive to the basket. To start passing around right in front of defenders? To lead to missed 3s?

 

[kyjeff1]

So you not noted that we stopped going to our post up game over the years, and drive to the basket. To start passing around right in front of defenders? To lead to missed 3s?

WTF

 

[kyjeff1]

Ohh, Lord, @kyjeff1 is on here lying again.

I'm going to give you guys a little info he doesn't want you to know.

KU runs a 3/2 high low offense.
Baylor runs a very similar offense. It's not spread either.
UVA also doesn't run a spread, they run a triangle. UNC also didn't run spread offense fir their last title, neither did Duke or Uconn. The one team that ran what could be called a spread offense was Villanova.
We sure didn't run spread with our championship team.

Auburn runs a spread offense, and we cooked them. Spread offenses are no more effective as this level than any other offense. Personnel and scheming to their stengths is what win games.

If you ask jeff for evidence of this spread offense these teams allegedly run, he can never show it to you. He simply says trust him, even though he had to ask what a 3/2 high low offense was.

The dude simply gets on here and spews lies to inflate himself because he has a very shitty homelife that gives him none.

You think KU runs a 3 out 2 in? Who are these 2 players that are parked in the paint?

Who are these Baylor players that are posting up in the paint?

2019 UVA was not a spread offense, like I said, they are an outlier, but in 2019, they had a strong contingent of guards and a 4 that could create and hit from the outside. They also lost to a 16 seed the year before with the same guys.

 

[JonathanW]

One more point. Remember 2015? We had the best defense by far. Notre Dame spread us out and drove on us just like Vanderbilt did and they damn near beat us, heck, I still have no idea how we won that game.

Then there was Wisconsin. They weren't a true spread offense, but as you can see, a great offense, again, beat a great defense.

I gotta be honest, with Cal here, I dread playing teams that run a spread offense, I don't like our chances.

In 2015 our defense was good, probably very good, but not great.
It was HISTORICALLY GREAT prior to the Poythress injury and the end of the platoon, and the numbers for those 9 games help the overall season defensive numbers to look better than it was at end of season.

 

[kyjeff1]

In 2015 our defense was good, probably very good, but not great.
It was HISTORICALLY GREAT prior to the Poythress injury and the end of the platoon, and the numbers for those 9 games help the overall season defensive numbers to look better than it was at end of season.

That 2015 defense is as good as it's going to get with Cal coaching, unless he lands another pair like AD and MKG, but how often does that happen?

You can have the best defense in the country and still get your doors blown off. An elite offense will beat an elite offense in todays game, especially the way these college games are officiated. Everything is a foul.

 

[UKBB4Ever]

I see nothing “modern” from team out there.

We kicked Vandy’s modern ass at Vandy.

Supposedly Ark runs this “modern” offense but it looks just like 90% of what other teams run.

But I have figured out the formula.

Every team that beats us runs a modern offense. Every team we beat doesn’t. Even if one of them is the same team we lost too.

They just chose to not run their modern offense on the days we beat them.

Auburn also supposedly ran a modern offense. Except on one day.

This team’s problem is defense. We don’t guard modern offense, we don’t guard old time offense. We don’t guard sets. We don’t guard motion.

Our offense is fine. We get open shot after open shot.

Cal haters never saw, Lamb, Knight, Aaron, Booker, Murray, Monk, Knox, Herro or Quickley play.

And Friday we missed free throw after free throw too. Including at least 3 front end of 1 and 1’s.

But even with all the missed shots we win if we just guard.

 

[kyjeff1]

KU currently runs KJ Adams, Udeh Jr and Wilson through the post.

Last years KU team, they had McCormick, Wilson, Lightfoot. And they also used Clemence and KJ Adams as reserves that split about 10mpg.

In 2020, when they were one of the faves before covid, they had Azubuike, McCormack, De Sousa and Enaruna.

They have never ran a spread. They did have some good wings though that could shoot, like Braun, Harris, Grady Dick, Agbaji. That would make any offense look better!

Baylor, this year runs, Thamba, Ojianwuna, Lohner, TCHAMWA TCHATCHOUA. The latter is a 50% 3pt shooter, but thats on just 6 makes. The others aren't even good shooters. So, no, Baylor isn't running a spread. They do have damn good guards though like George, Flaggler, Love and Cryer. If we hard guards like that, we would probably look good too.

Really, can you show us where Deandre Hunter played in the game where they lost to a 16 seed? Why be disengenious?

Surely, if you are convinced these teams run a spread, you can produce some sort of credible evidence of this, right? Like, wouldn't someone surely write something about it, talk about, make reference to it. Is it really just only you that knows about this spread offense they are allegedly running and no one else is ever discussing it?

Do you even know what post play is?

Watch UK, that’s a post offense, KU starts out every possession with 5 guys outside the arch, they are hunting threes and driving opportunities, but tgey will also go to a post play if the matchup is there, but there is no way you would call KU's offense a post offense.

 

[ukcatz12]

This thread is just more evidence that the fans that complain about the offense have no idea what they're actually watching when they watch basketball. "Modern offense" is just a buzz word on this board for when people feel like complaining.

 

[kyjeff1]

Except even Bill Self considers it a 3-2 high low. Even wrote a book about it. Yet, you're convinced he runs a 5 and out. Interesting.

Seemd odd you can provide no evidence that supports this claim, like with all your others.

Jesus man, do you create a new profile for every post?

Okay, lets go over Bill Self's book. Do you know when it was released? Here, I'll save you the research time… .it was released in 2008, not 2023, 2008. Back in 2008, Bill Self ran his offense through the post.

While running that post offense, KU lost to Bradley, Bucknell, VCU, Wichita state and Northern Iowa in the NCAAT.

So, I have a question for you, are you saying KU runs a 3/2, because BS wrote a book about it? Is that why you think they're running a 3/2 now??? Because they're not and neither is Baylor.

I'll ask again, who are the 2 players on KU's roster that are playing in the post? Who are the 2 Baylor players that play in the post? I have watched most of their games this year and I have yet to see Bill Self or Scott Drew run a post offense. Now, they have ran post plays, but they start off every possession with 5 guys outside the 3 point arch.

 

[kyjeff1]

This thread is just more evidence that the fans that complain about the offense have no idea what they're actually watching when they watch basketball. "Modern offense" is just a buzz word on this board for when people feel like complaining.

Oh really, well, why don't you explain it and while you're at it, tell me why Alabama, KU, Miami, Vandy, Baylor and Duke aren't running a modern, spread you out offense.

I can't wait to read your theories, you know, since you know better than the rest of us.

 

[CincinnatiWildcat]

Oh really, well, why don't you explain it and while you're at it, tell me why Alabama, KU, Miami, Vandy, Baylor and Duke aren't running a modern, spread you out offense.

I can't wait to read your theories, you know, since you know better than the rest of us.

Because what everyone seems to be calling a modern spread you out offense isn't really a defined thing. We can look at who they play and it in not like the top teams are all playing 4 guard or 5 guard sets. What everyone seems to be grouping in with "modern spread offense" is basically just the concept of having proper spacing on offense which is not a modern concept at all, it is actually a pretty basic one. You need well rounded players who understand spacing and can take what the defense gives them.

 

[ukcatz12]

Very few teams in CBB actually have a 5 capable of running a true spread.

And this is exactly the problem with trying to run stuff like this at the college level. The talent pool just isn't there.

 

[kyjeff1]

Dog, what's the date on this?

Bill Self Hi Lo Offense

Bill Self’s Hi-Lo Offense that he created while coaching at Tulsa and currently uses at Kansas. Download a PDF of the Bill Self Hi-Lo Offense or [...]

www.hoopcoach.org

The book site says: This playbook was diagrammed by Tyler Whitcomb and consists of 32 pages in a PDF format. 2020.

So, what are you basing that KU is consistently running a spread offense?

They also just got annihilated by Texas while allegedly running this unbeatable spread offense you claim.

We also beat the shit out of them last year with them allegedly running the unbeatable spread you claim they run.

I'm saying it because it's what they run. That's literally what Bill Self has ran most of his career. Now, does he adapt new plays and switch shit up occasionally during games? Sure! I am sure there are time they do spread the floor and play 4 and 1 and 5 out sets.

Hell, we play a 4 and 1 a lot with Toppin since he started actually taking and making 3's. We still lose because we let the other team score more. Also, 4 and 1 isn't technically a spread offense, FYI. Very few teams in CBB actually have a 5 capable of running a true spread. If you were actually versed in what a spread is, you would know that. The only recent championship to run a real spread was Nova.

When are you ever going to provide actual evidence of your claims. Right now you just seem like someone just arguing to argue, even against the evidence.

Dude, I've listed out the players for both teams in this thread two times. Go back and read them.

When did I say a spread offense was unbeatable? Just like always, you're putting words in my mouth.

So, Bill Self wrote a second book and released it in 2020, okay, soooo what does that have to do with 2022 and 2023?

You do realize Bill Self had Udoka Azubuike back in 2019/20, right? He did run a high/low offense at that time, but that's not what he ran last year and it's not what he's running this year.

How do I know they run a 5 out offense this year? Because I watch them play. Every possession starts eith 5 guys outside the arch, they don't have a big oaf anchored to the paint that they throw the ball down to.

Kansas runs a 5 out offense with a lot of ball reversal a lot of driving, a lot of kick outs and a lot of threes.

So what, we played a great game last year, hit KU with a buzzsaw, but who won the title and who got smoked by a mid major in the first round?

In games where UK hits shots, they can run anybody out of the gym, problem is, they only play that well a few times a year. It’s not a sustainable offense.

 

[jbne222]

Very few teams run a true 5 out offense and that’s usually out of necessity if they don’t have a good big. Bama runs 4/1 with Bediako down low. Vandy ran a 4/1 with a big parked in the paint until Robbins got hurt We’ve run a 4/1 most of this year but our problem has been a lack of proper spacing.

 

[kyjeff1]

Very few teams run a true 5 out offense and that’s usually out of necessity if they don’t have a good big. Bama runs 4/1 with Bediako down low. Vandy ran a 4/1 with a big parked in the paint until Robbins got hurt We’ve run a 4/1 most of this year but our problem has been a lack of proper spacing.

It’s still a spread offense, whether it's 4 out/1 in or 5 out/1 in.

The term "spread offense” is actually a football term, but I figured I could use it in this case and everyone would know what I'm saying.

 

[jbne222]

It’s still a spread offense, whether it's 4 out/1 in or 5 out/1 in.

The term "spread offense” is actually a football term, but I figured I could use it in this case and everyone would know what I'm saying.

I get what you’re saying. It’s all about proper spacing which the teams you’ve referenced are very good at. We suck at that

 

[kyjeff1]

This is exactly it! A true spread offense is requires all 5 guys to be able to play on the permiter. They have to be able to handle, shoot, read the floor and pass and setup the mismatch. It's basically dribble drive which is what Cal ran at Memphis. Very, very few teams have players at the 4 and 5 who can do that. Almost none have a Center capable of it. Teams in CBB who do it typically play smaller and give up more on the defensive end as a result. It's also susceptible to bad shooting nights, which is inevitable.

What Jeff really means, but just lacks the knowledge of, is that a modern offense is going back to floor spacing with utilizing more wings who are 3pt shooters and drivers at the 1 - 4 spots. You can still play in out, but when there is a mismatch at the wing, clear the post and let them go 1 on 1. Which, again, is dribble drive.

4 out/1 in or 5 out are both spread offenses.

However, you said KU and Baylor run a 3/2… .this year, this is something you need to explain that one. Who are the 2 post players on those 2 teams? I've been waiting on you to answer that.

 

[jbne222]

The times our offense has looked the best this year is when Cal pulls Oscar a little bit out of the post towards the high post or drops him towards the baseline. It’s opened up driving lanes for Toppin and our guards, and Livingston/Toppin cutting to the basket. We just haven’t done it consistently and I’m not sure why

 

[kyjeff1]

I get what you’re saying. It’s all about proper spacing which the teams you’ve referenced are very good at. We suck at that

Exactly right.

KU, Bama and Vanderbilt beat us by spreading us out. They made Oscar come out and guard on the perimeter. If you have the personnel to do that, you will beat UK, unless UK is hitting shots.

 

[kyjeff1]

You said every championship that you count, because you don't like to count UVA,

Kind of goes to show that's still the primary offense he uses. Again, you can provide nothing to the contrary.

Yep, and he than same offense before and since, which is why you can provide nothing to the contrary.

You must watch a different KU than Bill Self and everyone else. You should contact him and tell him he is really running a spread and not a 3/2 high low.

Any team who makes their shots is likely to win, Sherlock.

Ohh, well. There is no point in arguing with you further because it's obvious you're just trolling for people to argue with and you can provide no evidence that supports any of your claims. I'll just leave these here and let others see for themselves.

Best of luck on your Selection Sunday!

So, because I point to the teams that won titles, it means they were unbeatable? When did I say that?

So, another post from you and you still haven't told me who the post players are for KU and Baylor.

UK has Oscar
Gonzaga has Timme
NC has Bacot
KU in 2020 had Udoka
KU 2022 had who???
KU 2023 has who???
Baylor 2023 has who???
Bama 2023 has who???

Who are the post players for thise teams?

 

[crawfords corner]

Lol, no, it's not. A spread is 5 out.

Answered both multiple times in this thread. Since you refuse to read them, there isn't much point in continuing to post them.

They do both run a 3/2 high low. Baylor's is a variation of KU. Will gladly accept any evidence of the contrary for review. 😊

Best of luck on your selection Sunday!

 

[kyjeff1]

Lol, no, it's not. A spread is 5 out.

Answered both multiple times in this thread. Since you refuse to read them, there isn't much point in continuing to post them.

They do both run a 3/2 high low. Baylor's is a variation of KU. Will gladly accept any evidence of the contrary for review. 😊

Best of luck on your selection Sunday!

So, only a 5 out offense will spread you out??? A 4 out 1 in doesn't spread you out??? Bullshit.

Again, tell me who these post players are for KU abd Baylor

 

[crawfords corner]

The difference between Self and Calipari.

Self adjusts what he does to his personnel
Calipari tries to run the same thing no matter the personnel.

 

[kyjeff1]

View embedded media

You just shit your pants. When was that video posted?

The guy literally said "this offense works when you have a big man that can score in the post"

Who is Kansas' post man this year?

Posting videos from 2020 to make your argument about what KU is in 2023, is telling.

Back in the 1500's, the bow and arrow was the best weapon available, is that still true today? Obviously it is in your world.

Who is KU's post player this year? Who does KU have, that plays like Oscar?

 

[kyjeff1]

That's the definition of a spread offense. 5 out. Feel free to demonstrate any evidence that you feel proves otherwise and it will be vetted and considered throughly.

Feel free to see post #60 in this thread for all answers to your questions. 😉

Have a great Selection Sunday!

You know what? That is not the definition of a spread offense. The term "spread offense" is a football term, but here you are trying to determine the rules on what it means in college basketball. You’re making shit up.

I've been calling it a spread offense, because that's what it does, but that is a football term, you don't get to define what it means in college basketball.

 

[crawfords corner]

You just shit your pants. When was that video posted?

The guy literally said "this offense works when you have a big man that can score in the post"

Who is Kansas' post man this year?

Posting videos from 2020 to make your argument about what KU is in 2023, is telling.

Back in the 1500's, the bow and arrow was the best weapon available, is that still true today? Obviously it is in your world.

Who is KU's post player this year? Who does KU have, that plays like Oscar?

He's been running the same offense for over 20 years.

You don't have to have an Oscar to run your offense through the post.


I did shit my pants. You keep saying the same moronic wrong thing in every post. I laughed so hard I had a little accident.