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Super Bowl Halftime

gamecockcat said:
What is there to understand? I don't 'understand' free form jazz or a lot of progressive rock music. I don't understand Mozart's use of secondary dominants and diminished chords to voice lead, but that doesn't mean I can't hear the melody, rhythm and musicality of the musical piece. That doesn't mean I don't identify musical ability. I don't think I'd ever like hip hop. That's not the point. My point is that there is so little musicality involved in the music as to make it virtually indistinguishable from other artists in that genre.
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Well let's get to the first part. Kendrick Lamar is considered a fantastic lyricist with his clever uses of multiple meanings and callbacks to other songs/lyrics he's written in the past.

The majority of "good" rap is predicated on good lyricism and a great beat. Not poly rhythms, non standard tunings and dynamics.

You sound upset the color red isn't orange.
 
hmt5000 said:
I listened to rap my whole life. This isn't as good as Too Short, NWA, Big Daddy Kane, Marley Marl, Digital Underground... I think you want to put a label on people for having taste. LOL.
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I'd also argue that nearly every one of those artists were making completely different music to what is being played now, for better and worse.

I don't doubt Kendrick would name some of those on your list as hugely influential (particularly BDK), but I bet his fans don't listen to any of that music regularly, because it's almost a different genre altogether.
 
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hmt5000 said:
I've heard of Lamar but know nothing about him. I used AI to ask a few questions. He has 5 albums and sold a total of 10.2 million albums. I don't think he's as popular as people think.

On the other hand... The Rolling Stones have sold 250M albums worldwide. I feel like this is one of those things where people tell you something is popular when in fact, you don't know a single person who thinks that. LOL.
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Consciousness stupidity
hmt5000 said:
I listened to rap my whole life. This isn't as good as Too Short, NWA, Big Daddy Kane, Marley Marl, Digital Underground... I think you want to put a label on people for having taste. LOL.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, you like the music you grew up on....much like young people today.
 
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hmt5000 said:
Too Short was fire back in 90.
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He for sure did, there isn't a music critic in the world that would put too shorts music over Kendrick lamars. If you can find me a list from a publication on rap/hip hop that puts too short in the top 50 I'd be surprised.
 
barbourfor3 said:
That’s quite a leap for simply saying the half time show sucked, which it did.
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To be fair, I don't know what MJ is responding too, so I dont get the context of making that argument, but, based on the responses in this thread, it seems like a group of people are more upset that the artist sucks than the performance (which he undoubtedly did not write).
 
BristolCat said:
Objectively though, the argument you're making has been made by the older generation about the younger generations music for literally hundreds of years. Even into the era of "Classical" music you first referenced when Baroque music was abhorrent and unlistenable over some other orchestral genre for reasons that nobody remembers anymore. The kids who love Kendrick will hate whatever their kids listen to the same way our parents hated Metallica and Nirvana and their parents hated The Who and Zeppelin, and their parents hated The Beatles.

Knowing this is a common human phenomenon, wouldn't it make more sense to just shrug and say "I can tell other people are into it and good for them. I don't get it but that's okay." As opposed to trying to make this argument that your generation is the first to actually reject their children's art for legitimate reasons? Isn't it far more likely the same thing that's been happening for hundreds of years and not that we're more sophisticated than the kids?
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Good points. But, I'm not saying I don't like it. That's irrelevant. Someone mentioned Sinatra. I saw him in concert. Didn't like his music but the guy could f*ing sing. I can and still do recognize that fact. I've asked repeatedly what about Lamar's music is memorable, different from his contemporaries, i.e., better? Why do some in this thread think he's an all-time great?

And no one has offered up anything besides 'he's had a ton of streams', 'some review said it was great', 'you're too old to understand '. I'm honestly trying to understand. I'd like someone to tell me some objective reasons why they like his music more and feel it's better than nearly all other hip hop artists.
 
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gamecockcat said:
Good points. But, I'm not saying I don't like it. That's irrelevant. Someone mentioned Sinatra. I saw him in concert. Didn't like his music but the guy could f*ing sing. I can and still do recognize that fact. I've asked repeatedly what about Lamar's music is memorable, different from his contemporaries, i.e., better? Why do some in this thread think he's an all-time great?

And no one has offered up anything besides 'he's had a ton of streams', 'some review said it was great', 'you're too old to understand '. I'm honestly trying to understand. I'd like someone to tell me some objective reasons why they like his music more and feel it's better than nearly all other hip hop artists.
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Considering his music is reaching so many fans (he has high streams), some of the most well respected names in rap are already giving him legendary accolades at his age (some review said it was good) and you seem more interested in finding music theory in rap/hip hop which has always been lacking sorely in that department (you just don't understand), I don't know how else to explain it.

He's wildly popular, revered by his peers and critics and performs hip hop. What else is there?
 
Irish Beck said:
Well let's get to the first part. Kendrick Lamar is considered a fantastic lyricist with his clever uses of multiple meanings and callbacks to other songs/lyrics he's written in the past.

The majority of "good" rap is predicated on good lyricism and a great beat. Not poly rhythms, non standard tunings and dynamics.

You sound upset the color red isn't orange.
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Finally, someone gave a reasonable answer. Who considers him a fantastic lyricist? Same league as Beatles, Dylan, Bowie, Cobain, et al? I truly don't know.

So, you're saying, I think, that Lamar is better because of his lyrics? From your post and others, it seems to me that creating a 'good' (and, I would presume, different) beat is not as important as the lyrics when it comes to distinguishing one artist from another as, to the untrained ear, a good beat sounds, many times, like a lot of other good beats. I would think it would be harder to create a unique good beat than unique lyrics.

Other posters mentioned older artists who perhaps did use more instruments. Would they still be hip hop or is hip hop defined by its lack of instruments?

I'm not upset at all. I'm trying to learn about Lamar's music and what makes it better. Hell, I may stream some of it after tonight to see if I can develop a taste for it if LK is one of the best all time. I mean that.
 
This is usually my favorite thread of the year.

Reportedly, artists like Taylor Swift and The Foo Fighters have either rejected offers to perform or have no interest. We already went through several aging rock acts like 15 years ago. You wanna talk out of place? Trot out Bon Jovi, Mötley Crüe, ZZ Top, and Def Leppard. Stapleton is fantastic but his music doesn't scream excitement, same for most other country and Americana acts. AC/DC is in their 70s and quite a few artists from the 90s are dead. And no, Metallica, Slipknot, Ghost, GNR, Iron Maiden, or any other well known hard rock or metal act will never play halftime. None listed there except maybe Ghost would want to anyway. That leaves whatever is somewhat current and very popular which appeals to younger people.
 
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Irish Beck said:
Considering his music is reaching so many fans (he has high streams), some of the most well respected names in rap are already giving him legendary accolades at his age (some review said it was good) and you seem more interested in finding music theory in rap/hip hop which has always been lacking sorely in that department (you just don't understand), I don't know how else to explain it.

He's wildly popular, revered by his peers and critics and performs hip hop. What else is there?
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Telling me I don't understand doesn't fix the problem. You still haven't told me WHY he's better and revered and super popular when others are sucking wind.

I know there's no music theory involved in hip hop as there is so little actual music. That is not a knock, necessarily, just a basic fact.

And popular doesn't equate to good. Kelly Clarkson was wildly popular for a while and she's not ever going to be remembered as a great artist. And hundreds more names I could cite.
 
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gamecockcat said:
Finally, someone gave a reasonable answer. Who considers him a fantastic lyricist? Same league as Beatles, Dylan, Bowie, Cobain, et al? I truly don't know.

So, you're saying, I think, that Lamar is better because of his lyrics? From your post and others, it seems to me that creating a 'good' (and, I would presume, different) beat is not as important as the lyrics when it comes to distinguishing one artist from another as, to the untrained ear, a good beat sounds, many times, like a lot of other good beats. I would think it would be harder to create a unique good beat than unique lyrics.

Other posters mentioned older artists who perhaps did use more instruments. Would they still be hip hop or is hip hop defined by its lack of instruments?

I'm not upset at all. I'm trying to learn about Lamar's music and what makes it better. Hell, I may stream some of it after tonight to see if I can develop a taste for it if LK is one of the best all time. I mean that.
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Didn't mean to imply you were upset, just trying to make a comparison.

Older hip hop was more musical in the sense that they used samples from all other genres of music to rap over. Modern rap / hip hop seems to be more about rhythm and feel than quality of musical voicing and melody.

You get the real combination when a fire beat meets a fire set of bars. The biggest Kendrick song last year was a dj mustard beat that was essentially a two chord eighth note melody with a brass sample thrown in every 8th measure. There just wasn't much to it, but the context of the song and wild performance from Kendrick pushed it over the top.
 
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gamecockcat said:
Telling me I don't understand doesn't fix the problem. You still haven't told me WHY he's better and revered and super popular when others are sucking wind.

I know there's no music theory involved in hip hop as there is so little actual music. That is not a knock, necessarily, just a basic fact.

And popular doesn't equate to good. Kelly Clarkson was wildly popular for a while and she's not ever going to be remembered as a great artist. And hundreds more names I could cite.
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I'm trying to explain to you why you don't understand though. You complained that the song lacked musicality / melody then went on to say that hip/hop and rap is known for lacking that. So which is it, were the songs worse than current rap standards or is all rap generally simplified beats and melodies?

It's important to mention popularity because of the number of people in here who say they don't know who Kendrick Lamar is when it's clear plenty of other people are well aware. Popularity wouldn't be enough on it's own, as generally popular artists are NOT considered the best in particular genres, which is why it's important that Kendrick is highly regarded by his contemporaries.
 
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gamecockcat said:
So tell me WHY he's going to be remembered in 25 years. Is it because his music is so memorable? You hum along to the melody? Serious question - why would his music be something that lasts? How is it different from contemporaries who WON'T be remembered?
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He won't be remembered in 25 years. That guy is a loon. Snoop and Dre. They're royalty. Kendrick Lamar isn't.
 
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Nightwish84 said:
This is usually my favorite thread of the year.

Reportedly, artists like Taylor Swift and The Foo Fighters have either rejected offers to perform or have no interest. We already went through several aging rock acts like 15 years ago. You wanna talk out of place? Trot out Bon Jovi, Mötley Crüe, ZZ Top, and Def Leppard. Stapleton is fantastic but his music doesn't scream excitement, same for most other country and Americana acts. AC/DC is in their 70s and quite a few artists from the 90s are dead. And no, Metallica, Slipknot, Ghost, GNR, Iron Maiden, or any other well known hard rock or metal act will never play halftime. None listed there except maybe Ghost would want to anyway. That leaves whatever is somewhat current and very popular which appeals to younger people.
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Is this what the Iowa poll said?
 
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You know. It's too bad Kendrick and Drake are beefing.. because Drake would have been a great complimentary artist who has a ton of radio hits that almost everyone would recognize. I know hes no longer "cool" these days, but thats a hip-hop/pop artist that was at THE top in the late 2000s and 2010s.

And even better if they could bring out ASAP Rocky so the 3 of them could play "f*ckin problems"..
 
I want to make two other points that no one asked for:

1. Kendrick did a fantastic job for what he was asked of. He held up his end of the bargain as best he could.

2. Rap concerts blow. They're weirdly lame. There's no band, it's just pressing "play" and artists jumping around, and then they will have some of their entourage up there, just mumbling in the background. The sound quality is often awful as well. Idk if its the venues ive gone to or what. Rap music videos? Fire. Rap concerts though are just awkward. And I've seen dozens. So its good to see when NFL money and production can help make Kendricks concert better.. but Rap shows are still severely lacking something that makes other music shows so great, and it kind of shown itself today, IMO.
 
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Irish Beck said:
He's saying the nostalgia you feel for the who will likely be felt by Kendrick fans in a similar time frame. He's not just saying you're old, hes saying the music has the same merits, regardless of your taste.
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Dude, I don’t want to be offensive. His point was obvious. Whether it is true or not only time will tell. All I know is I went to a Who concert in 2019 and there were some 20 somethings there to see the opening act, not knowing the Who. Half way through the Who concert, they were high fiving me enjoying the show. Baba O’ Riley will be loved when I am dead. Same may be true of Lamar.
 
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Everyone run to the "what are you listening to" thread and post your favorite hip hop jams. New or old. Or not. Just a thought.
 
Caveman Catfan said:
Dude, I don’t want to be offensive. His point was obvious. Whether it is true or not only time will tell. All I know is I went to a Who concert in 2019 and there were some 20 somethings there to see the opening act, not knowing the Who. Half way through the Who concert, they were high fiving me enjoying the show. Baba O’ Riley will be love when I am dead. Same may be true of Lamar.
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That's because The Who kick ass and make great music. I'm glad young people are branching away from some of the brain rot social media hits that are generated today.
 
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LineSkiCat14 said:
I want to make two other points that no one asked for:

1. Kendrick did a fantastic job for what he was asked of. He held up his end of the bargain as best he could.

2. Rap concerts blow. They're weirdly lame. There's no band, it's just pressing "play" and artists jumping around, and then they will have some of their entourage up there, just mumbling in the background. The sound quality is often awful as well. Idk if its the venues ive gone to or what. Rap music videos? Fire. Rap concerts though are just awkward. And I've seen dozens. So its good to see when NFL money and production can help make Kendricks concert better.. but Rap shows are still severely lacking something that makes other music shows so great, and it kind of shown itself today, IMO.
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Between the recent halftime acts and the constant Taylor Swift screen shots.... NFL and Fox obviously don't know their audience. It's like they pander to their smallest segment. NFL being trying to make women love football for 20 years and it's just annoying. LOL.
 
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hmt5000 said:
Between the recent halftime acts and the constant Taylor Swift screen shots.... NFL and Fox obviously don't know their audience. It's like they pander to their smallest segment. NFL being trying to make women love football for 20 years and it's just annoying. LOL.
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That 3 minute long commercial for female flag football right after the kendrick show hahaha.
 
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Irish Beck said:
That's because The Who kick ass and make great music. I'm glad young people are branching away from some of the brain rot social media hits that are generated today.
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My daughters are 14 and 18 and they listen to a lot of the stuff kids their age listen to like Sabrina Carpenter and Post Malone but they also listen to a lot of 70’s and 80’s music. My 14 year old loves REO Speedwagon for some reason!

I blame her mother.
 
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