Recruiting reality

[BlueBomb]

Great day yesterday, for sure. But the reality is that we are always fighting a huge up-hill battle, given our conference affiliation.

While our class was ranked 25th nationally (247), we ranked 13th in the SEC (counting Texas & Oklahoma).

Still, give Stoops credit, at least we're in the ballpark, which is way better than it used to be.

 

[SpamburgerHamburger]

Amen.

 

[Maximus52]

NIL money does not equal success on the field. A&M and Florida both out spend us each year. You have to have coaches that develop players also.
Stoops has put more players in the league that any coach at UK.
Good luck to the players that left or signed elsewhere.
Lets get to work!

 

[K_TIME]

1. UK used to be in the 40/50 range and a good class would sneak into the 30s...so while we are still bottom third ....alot less ground than it used to be.
2. WIth the portal stuff.....it's got to be hard as heck to figure out how a recruiting class really stacks up over years. For instance UK 2022 class....UK was 14 but Kiyante Goodwin, both Wade Twins, Grant BIngham, Jakobii Albert, Andre Stewart, Dorajye, Anthony Jordan Quentel Jones, Elijah Reed, Andre Stewart all leave and do essentially nothing at UK.

Hard to tell now what a class is worth

 

[Tskware]

What is going to be interesting to follow is the relationship between NIL dollars spent and results on the field. A&M has had no success to speak of so far. Just look at the New York Yankees who have won one championship since 2000. NYY did not even make playoffs this year!

The Dodgers also only one WS this century And that was in the COVID year.

In short, you can't just buy your way to a championship or even a good team necessarily.

 

[bluecoon1]

Tough conference with some huge NIL donors but Stoops still signs some solid classes which put us mid-pack. If we play clean ball and get some breaks there’s a good chance we can win a few games and maybe pull off a couple of upsets. Goal at this point should be to shoot for 5-3 with an outside shot at 6-2 depending on the schedule.

 

[Rembrandt90]

Great day yesterday, for sure. But the reality is that we are always fighting a huge up-hill battle, given our conference affiliation.

While our class was ranked 25th nationally (247), we ranked 13th in the SEC (counting Texas & Oklahoma).

Still, give Stoops credit, at least we're in the ballpark, which is way better than it used to be.

The SEC is the best college athletic conference in the country. So the competition is stiff. UK has embraced it. A portion of our fan base has embraced it. Others still cowar on the periphery.

Online class rankings are not accurate predictors of class performance. Of course I realize this statement confuses and terrifies some here, but it is obviously the truth. Lots of factors can intervene, such as injuries, transfers, overachievers, underachievers, momentum, because football is a team sport played by humans. Nobody knows how a class will perform until it does. I advise giving every class 2-3 years before even trying to assess its effectiveness.

But you are correct in the final analysis. Stoops is getting the job done. The improvement since he arrived here in 2013 is remarkable.

 

[BlueRaider22]

There's a lot to recruiting to be sure.

1. Consistency - If team A's last 4 recruiting classes were ranked #15, #30, #17, #29. And team B's were #21, #20, #19, #20. It's more likely that team B is going to be a better team even though there have been several times where team A gets a higher ranking.

2. Make up - What good is a top #10 recruiting class if half of your recruiting class is TE's and Kickers? What good is landing an elite dual threat QB if you won't let him run? That's obviously a hyperbole, but it proves a point that it depends on what you recruit and how it relates to your roster.

3. Recruiting is a very inexact science - While we might be ranked #13th in the SEC, it's very possible that classes ranked from #8-14 aren't very different from one another. There's a large margin of error.

 

[JHB4UK]

Portal gives us so much more than the old world of depending on HS recruiting. This yr so far from the portal we have gotten likely 2024 starters at:

QB/2nd string QB
RB
Slot reciever/#1 pass target
Mike LB

Hopefully we might still find a starting corner, and some depth at O tackle. Also we were able to pull back from the portal young talented WR & TE from leaving to join likely conference rival schools.

And did all that while still recruiting for the future, a qb to develop among the most important.

 

[Rembrandt90]

There's a lot to recruiting to be sure. Recruiting is a very inexact science...There's a large margin of error.

True. Which is why online class rankings are not predictors of class performance. Players get hurt or sick (Barker, Oats, Hall). Players have career-blowing off field issues (Tubman, Hatcher). Some players massively overachieve (Allen, Davis, Baity, Taylor, Bunchy, Stenberg, Fortner, Benny, CRod) or underachieve (Elam, Casey, Drennen, Goodwin). Some players leave (Wade twins). You can't measure what is in a player's heart and brain. So if we are being realistic and learning from practical experience, we won't assess a recruiting class's effectiveness until we have given them a chance to perform. When I listen to Coach Marrow, his own ideas about the best classes he has recruited do not correlate very well at all with their online rankings.

 

[Dddjdd]

Portal gives us so much more than the old world of depending on HS recruiting. This yr so far from the portal we have gotten likely 2024 starters at:

QB/2nd string QB
RB
Slot reciever/#1 pass target
Mike LB

Hopefully we might still find a starting corner, and some depth at O tackle. Also we were able to pull back from the portal young talented WR & TE from leaving to join likely conference rival schools.

And did all that while still recruiting for the future, a qb to develop among the most important.

Would be interesting to see our 2023 first string by who was a recruit vs a transfer and how that compares to other programs. Seems like our most impactful starters the last couple years on offense have been transfers, but the majority of our starters are not

 

[Tskware]

One really good transfer QB can make a huge difference for a lot of teams, E. G Levis, Burrow, Pennix, et al.

 

[CUJO_1970]

The SEC is the best college athletic conference in the country. So the competition is stiff. UK has embraced it. A portion of our fan base has embraced it. Others still cowar on the periphery.

Online class rankings are not accurate predictors of class performance. Of course I realize this statement confuses and terrifies some here, but it is obviously the truth. Lots of factors can intervene, such as injuries, transfers, overachievers, underachievers, momentum, because football is a team sport played by humans. Nobody knows how a class will perform until it does. I advise giving every class 2-3 years before even trying to assess its effectiveness.

But you are correct in the final analysis. Stoops is getting the job done. The improvement since he arrived here in 2013 is remarkable.

LOL - yes - everyone that shows any concern regarding UK's 13th in the SEC recruiting class is a terrified, confused coward. Great point!

We all know what OP is saying and agree. Nobody here needs a lecture.

 

[Coach Marrow]

You’re right. Even Bo Nix made a big difference at Oregon. Hendon Hooker made Heupel look smart and Burrow got a championship for Orgeron.

 

[rudd1]

-I don't understand the motivation for these types of posts. It's an obvious statement and any semi-serious college football fan knows it. May as well start a thread about water being wet. No shit Sherlock.

^some folks love finding the bad side of everything. I can't fathom having a thought of "well that was a good day...but it isn't as good as such and such" and creating a thread on a message board. What a miserable existence.

^yet, like clockwork after every signing day at least one thread like this pops up. One could set their watch by it.

 

[rudd1]

-also, this is the 3rd post about football the OP has made since September.

1. About beer at commonwealth.
2. Chastising Ray for sitting out the bowl game (didn't age well).
3. Denigrating the recruiting class.

^he's a basketball first guy. He's trolling UK football fans... yet some jump right in there with him in what can only be described as a "circle jerk of misery"(tm).

-do better, people.

 

[CUJO_1970]

Cool.

So moving forward, only mention the 'great day' part and the 'stoops has really improved recruiting' part but don't you dare mention we are still ranked 13th in SEC.

Next year there better not be even one thread that mentions this!

 

[rudd1]

Cool.

So moving forward, only mention the 'great day' part and the 'stoops has really improved recruiting' part but don't you dare mention we are still ranked 13th in SEC.

Next year there better not be even one thread that mentions this!

-excellent suggestion.

 

[Rembrandt90]

LOL - yes - everyone that shows any concern regarding UK's 13th in the SEC recruiting class is a terrified, confused coward. Great point!

We all know what OP is saying and agree. Nobody here needs a lecture.

This is one of the hardest parts of posting here. The negative agenda posters always have to misquote or misrepresent the positive posts so they can fight off the positive fans and sustain their negative attitudes.

 

[Rembrandt90]

-I don't understand the motivation for these types of posts. It's an obvious statement and any semi-serious college football fan knows it. May as well start a thread about water being wet. No shit Sherlock.

^some folks love finding the bad side of everything. I can't fathom having a thought of "well that was a good day...but it isn't as good as such and such" and creating a thread on a message board. What a miserable existence.

^yet, like clockwork after every signing day at least one thread like this pops up. One could set their watch by it.

This website is invested with chronically unhappy people, fans permanently stuck in the past, fans who can't (or don't want to) recognize examples of improvement, and boosters desperate to run Stoops and Barnhart off. They are ruining the experience for fans who actually appreciate the differences between 2012 and 2023, and it is deliberate.

 

[Tskware]

-also, this is the 3rd post about football the OP has made since September.

1. About beer at commonwealth.

I like beer at Commonwealth and KY Proud Park as well!! 😁

 

[BluegrassSportsNet]

This website is invested with chronically unhappy people, fans permanently stuck in the past, fans who can't (or don't want to) recognize examples of improvement, and boosters desperate to run Stoops and Barnhart off. They are ruining the experience for fans who actually appreciate the differences between 2012 and 2023, and it is deliberate.

Barnhart should be ran off. Not because of past results, but because of how his “moral stances” will affect future results.

 

[Soupbean]

1. UK used to be in the 40/50 range and a good class would sneak into the 30s...so while we are still bottom third ....alot less ground than it used to be.
2. WIth the portal stuff.....it's got to be hard as heck to figure out how a recruiting class really stacks up over years. For instance UK 2022 class....UK was 14 but Kiyante Goodwin, both Wade Twins, Grant BIngham, Jakobii Albert, Andre Stewart, Dorajye, Anthony Jordan Quentel Jones, Elijah Reed, Andre Stewart all leave and do essentially nothing at UK.

Hard to tell now what a class is worth

Thats the point I tried to lay out a few years ago. The ranking number in league or even nationally is misleading the actual gaps are what matters. The difference between 13 and say 5 is MUCH smaller that is was in the past and those classes are bunched up with little real difference, you can see that in the average star ratings.

10 years ago we were hoping to get to 13th and even there we were miles away from even 8th.

 

[backinky2018]

The key is getting us in the ballpark of talent that the top tier of the conference has. I would like to see us get into the top 15, but if we can continue to get top 20 or 25 classes, then we should continue to be competitive in the SEC (tho not expecting to beat Alabama and Georgia with any regularity).

 

[Cobb4uk]

True. Which is why online class rankings are not predictors of class performance. Players get hurt or sick (Barker, Oats, Hall). Players have career-blowing off field issues (Tubman, Hatcher). Some players massively overachieve (Allen, Davis, Baity, Taylor, Bunchy, Stenberg, Fortner, Benny, CRod) or underachieve (Elam, Casey, Drennen, Goodwin). Some players leave (Wade twins). You can't measure what is in a player's heart and brain. So if we are being realistic and learning from practical experience, we won't assess a recruiting class's effectiveness until we have given them a chance to perform. When I listen to Coach Marrow, his own ideas about the best classes he has recruited do not correlate very well at all with their online rankings.

One thing, IMO, that's forgotten about, which is as, or more important than ratings is being able to hit on each cycle the areas of need. If your getting the players needed to fill holes but their not as high rated, as say, an athlete that will be reflected in ratings. Second, the staff ability to judge talent and the players ability to mature into a star. There have been several Josh Allen, Calvin Taylor type players recruited since Stoops has arrived. The proof in the pudding is the amount of player that are now in the NFL. Lastly, there are certain teams that will always be rated highly no matter who they recruit, Norte Dame usually top 10 annually is a good example.

 

[The-Hack]

Barnhart should be ran off. Not because of past results, but because of how his “moral stances” will affect future results.

His moral stances have landed us in the Top 10 last year in total sports rankings, and the Top 20 in the latest rankings.

If you are referencing NIL, for portal transfers, we ranked 5th in one listing, 6th in another . . . someone(s) spent a good amount of money putting these combined results together.

Our average recruiting rank for the first three years of NIL influence has averaged higher than the three years prior.

Those who think NIL or “morality” is holding us back, explain the effect had by the following players who were NIL influenced transfers: Will Levis, Dare Rosenthal, Wan Dale Robinson, Jaquez Jones, Leary, Marquis Cox, Ray Davis.

 

[The-Hack]

10 years ago we were hoping to get to 13th and even there we were miles away from even 8th.

Fifteen years ago, when SEC dominance was truly being proven, I predicted the compression of talent into the SEC . . . I then doubted the 14th SEC Class would be the 14th best nationally, but we are closer and closer to that reality, every year.

Two years ago, Vandy at 33rd and Ole Miss at 37th were 13th and 14th in the SEC. Their Classes would have put them Top Third in the ACC, and middlin’ in all other conferences.

Hell, Vandy, USCe, and Mississippi State could win a third of the bowl games, if invited, this year with losing records.

 

[maroon79]

Cool.

So moving forward, only mention the 'great day' part and the 'stoops has really improved recruiting' part but don't you dare mention we are still ranked 13th in SEC.

Next year there better not be even one thread that mentions this!

Calm down Francis. It’s really not worth all of that is it?

 

[lsb34m3]

Let’s be honest. Football is almost all about your quarterback now. If you don’t have a very good/elite quarterback with a descent line you are not going to win. You have to hit on the quarterback and then protect him. Levis first year we did. His second season the line was terrible and so was the play calling. This year we missed on our quarterback and our line was minimally improved. If those two positions improve just (idk say) 25-30% we will be a very good team next year. Yes. Play calling and receivers need to improve which appears is being addressed but it’s all about your quarterback. I don’t think many understood how good Levis was until we didnt have him anymore. The guy is beast.

 

[PhattyJ4UK]

I’d argue we wouldn’t be top 25 if not for being in the sec …. So get over it, put our big boy pants on and figure out how to win.

Our talent is fine. We’ve got to find schemes and adjustments that give us a chance to punch up.

 

[CRZ4UK]

There's a lot to recruiting to be sure.

1. Consistency - If team A's last 4 recruiting classes were ranked #15, #30, #17, #29. And team B's were #21, #20, #19, #20. It's more likely that team B is going to be a better team even though there have been several times where team A gets a higher ranking.

2. Make up - What good is a top #10 recruiting class if half of your recruiting class is TE's and Kickers? What good is landing an elite dual threat QB if you won't let him run? That's obviously a hyperbole, but it proves a point that it depends on what you recruit and how it relates to your roster.

3. Recruiting is a very inexact science - While we might be ranked #13th in the SEC, it's very possible that classes ranked from #8-14 aren't very different from one another. There's a large margin of error.

Don’t forget about whether or not you are recruiting a kid with good habits or bad ones. Stoops is like Cal in he stays away from guys that have talent but bring baggage and complications to the locker room. He try’s to recruit GOOD KIDS to fit his culture. He speaks of this often and uses the words…. Good fit. I’m sure he could have higher classes if he only cared about talent. Tennessee doesn’t care what kind of guy they are getting. They just care how he plays.

 

[gamalielkid]

Great day yesterday, for sure. But the reality is that we are always fighting a huge up-hill battle, given our conference affiliation.

While our class was ranked 25th nationally (247), we ranked 13th in the SEC (counting Texas & Oklahoma).

Still, give Stoops credit, at least we're in the ballpark, which is way better than it used to be.

No matter what anyone says - it is still about the Jimmy's and Joe's. To compete you have to have them. Some good looking Jimmy's don't pan out. Some Joe's don't have the commitment. But its always about talent - at least to start. Then how they are developed and used is what determines how your team will be! Now, the portal lets you correct a lot of mistakes with the Jimmy's and Joe's. But lets face it - the overall college picture is more like the pros than ever before. As fans do we care if they are college kids or not? 50 years ago and maybe even 20 years ago - we did! Now, sad to say - we don't! It's not about the kid from Monroe County who made it to UK or from anywhere else in the state in reality. It is about UK and how we compete against the other semi pro teams. Is that bad? Not really - its just different now.

I'm not a huge professional football fan - at least I thought I wasn't until now! I am a huge fan of minor league professional football now - which is actually NCAA Division 1 Football.

Go Big Blue!

 

[truebluewildcat]

This has been and always will be the case.

It's something the fanbase has to accept from the standpoint of "well recruiting...if we just get xyz players, and crack the top whatever..."

Folks, we can crack the top 15, and 6-8 of the 14 schools ranked higher we have to play regularly.

It's why I've always argued we need to recruit different areas. We have maxed out with the Ohio talent.

We need to recruit more Texas, California, Florida. Not that we'll get more 4- and 5-star guys. We won't, but a top 20ish class with talent from those states will actually get better results.

Essentially, a Texas, Cali, or Florida 3 star is an Ohio and Kentucky 4 star probably even 5 stars in some cases.

Thanks CMS and Marrow. Good job on making some recruiting headway in Ohio and Kentucky. That took from what .500ish/5-6 wins a year if you average out Brooks n Joker era(s) to about 7 wins a year under.

So it's been worth a game maybe two...primarily Missouri and SC.

If we want to take that next step, the type/class of athlete/talent has to change. Not the star or class ranking.

Just like conferences, and rankings within them. UL was the second-best team in the ACC...we beat em, and honestly, I'd like our chances against FSU.

We got the top such and such in Ohio, okay great, what would he be in east Texas. Broward or Dade County Florida?

 

[CUJO_1970]

This is one of the hardest parts of posting here. The negative agenda posters always have to misquote or misrepresent the positive posts so they can fight off the positive fans and sustain their negative attitudes.

Positive? You're the one saying people "cower", are terrified, confused etc. for pointing out the reality of our situation. You got called out for it. IDK, Deal with it or stop framing posters that way...or don't.

-Stoops has done great.
-We are still 13th in the SEC.

Both of those things are true. While I do enjoy your recruiting posts, nobody needs your approval to point that out on a forum where we talk about, uh...football. It's going to be an even bigger issue moving forward with Texas and Oklahoma joining the SEC.

 

[CUJO_1970]

Calm down Francis. It’s really not worth all of that is it?

Cool as a cucumber bro, and I hope you are having literally the best day ever.

 

[BlueRaider22]

True. Which is why online class rankings are not predictors of class performance. Players get hurt or sick (Barker, Oats, Hall). Players have career-blowing off field issues (Tubman, Hatcher). Some players massively overachieve (Allen, Davis, Baity, Taylor, Bunchy, Stenberg, Fortner, Benny, CRod) or underachieve (Elam, Casey, Drennen, Goodwin). Some players leave (Wade twins). You can't measure what is in a player's heart and brain. So if we are being realistic and learning from practical experience, we won't assess a recruiting class's effectiveness until we have given them a chance to perform. When I listen to Coach Marrow, his own ideas about the best classes he has recruited do not correlate very well at all with their online rankings.

Well said,


There's also an aspect of recruiting that is not well understood. For example,

Player A - 6' 4" #215 and is lean. Runs a 4.7. Had good production and instincts as a DE.
Player B - 6' 4" #250 and is lean. Runs a 4.7. Had good production and instincts as a DE.

Player B might be considered a 4* or 5* player while Player A might be considered a 3*.
The misunderstanding sometimes comes because someone views a lower rating as they aren't capable of elite athleticism or play rather than because something is lagging behind a little bit, like size or technique.....and sometimes the analyst just doesn't get it right.

 

[JHB4UK]

Josh Allen & Jamin Davis went from 2 & 3 star low recruits to NFL 1st rounders because they packed on 50-60 lbs of weight/muscle while keeping same speed & athleticism. Or hitting the genetic lottery.

The ability to tell that will happen to a 15, 16 yr old kid is about the same as winning the Powerball lottery. Or to tell that someone has topped out and peaked at 17, won't develop anymore.

 

[3632]

there isn’t any reason we should be caught up in finishing 11 or 12 or 13 out of 16. It’s about what range we are in. Rankings aren’t perfect and coaching raises or lowers those rankings. It matters more what neighborhood we are in than it does which particular house. The UGA’s and Bamas are at a distinct personnel advantage and there might be some with a very ‘slight’ personnel advantage then there are some in the same realm. We’re fine. Just coach it and recruit to fit and culture. Where we’ve been since the facility improvements is good. I keep saying we’re never going to be Georgia or bama but we’re within striking distance of an upset on occasion if you just look at rank. But that takes elite game coaching. This new era of scheduling will prove one way or another what stoops has or doesn’t. If it was all recruiting stars the head coach at UF would still be Ron Zook, Jimbo at A&M etc… and if we played with WVU’s OOC schedule stoops would’ve been fired years ago. So it’s a matter of factoring in many things.

 

[CRZ4UK]

No matter what anyone says - it is still about the Jimmy's and Joe's. To compete you have to have them. Some good looking Jimmy's don't pan out. Some Joe's don't have the commitment. But its always about talent - at least to start. Then how they are developed and used is what determines how your team will be! Now, the portal lets you correct a lot of mistakes with the Jimmy's and Joe's. But lets face it - the overall college picture is more like the pros than ever before. As fans do we care if they are college kids or not? 50 years ago and maybe even 20 years ago - we did! Now, sad to say - we don't! It's not about the kid from Monroe County who made it to UK or from anywhere else in the state in reality. It is about UK and how we compete against the other semi pro teams. Is that bad? Not really - its just different now.

I'm not a huge professional football fan - at least I thought I wasn't until now! I am a huge fan of minor league professional football now - which is actually NCAA Division 1 Football.

Go Big Blue!

What has shocked me is the willingness for the fans to pay to win. Brock Purdy has San Fran in the playoffs and will make 875,000 this year. Word is lowly UK paid about a million for Brock. Crazy Right. Maybe the NFL should start a nil program so the fans could pay their salaries.

 

[JHB4UK]

Word is lowly UK paid about a million for Brock.

Word is wrong. He will get about $250k. Same as Leary & Levis before him.