Playing guys with 2 fouls in the first half

[Digger-Cat]

I have always said it was a bad idea and it is. If we played in a Pac12, or ACC type conference, you can get away with it, but you cant do it in this conference and you definitely can't do it against a team like Auburn that comes at you from all 5 positions. Those guards will eat you alive if they know you have to back off to avoid picking up a foul.

Oweh picked up a 3rd in the first half on a really stupid play. He is not a guy you can do this with, he's not a guy that plays smart enough to avoid foul trouble.

I don't care what anybody says, the 2nd half is the more important half. Adjustments are made at halftime, players get tired, the last 4 minutes are crazy and you need your guys to be able to defend without worrying about fouling out. There's no 3rd half to make up for the mistakes you make in the 2nd half.

Oweh was a ghost in the second half today. There was no point where he could play aggressively. He picked up his 4th foul early and that was all she wrote.

I know some will disagree with me, but I don't care, it's common sense, if you pick up your 3rd in the 1st half, you're screwed, especially with the whistle in this conference.

 

[yabbadabbadoo]

My opinion is that it just depends on who it is and what the game situation is. Oweh wasn’t exactly killing it in the first half. He’s actually been Jekyll and Hyde here lately. Against Auburn, we needed our best players to play the most possible minutes. Believe this was Pope’s thoughts too.

 

[Digger-Cat]

My opinion is that it just depends on who it is and what the game situation is. Oweh wasn’t exactly killing it in the first half. He’s actually been Jekyll and Hyde here lately. Against Auburn, we needed our best players to play the most possible minutes. Believe this was Pope’s thoughts too.

But of you're out there trying to play with a "don't foul" mindset against Auburn, you're going to get burned.
Oweh is obviously not smart enough to play in thst situation. His 3rd foul was such a dumb thing to do and his 4th foul wasn't much better.

I agree, there are some situations where you can do it, but today wasn't one of them. It neutralized one of our best players.

 

[jwphelps]

My opinion is that it just depends on who it is and what the game situation is. Oweh wasn’t exactly killing it in the first half. He’s actually been Jekyll and Hyde here lately. Against Auburn, we needed our best players to play the most possible minutes. Believe this was Pope’s thoughts too.

Agree, but all these arm chair coaches have to bitch about something.

 

[KY Long Rifle]

I would normally agree that it’s best to sit a guy after his 2nd foul in the 1st half. But, today we needed certain guys in the game to give us a chance. It didn’t work, but I understood the dilemma the staff was facing. For the most part they have sat players with two fouls until the 2nd half. I think today it was more out of desperation.

 

[Digger-Cat]

Agree, but all these arm chair coaches have to bitch about something.

Are you saying I'm bitching? Hope not, because I said nothing about Pope, he rolled the dice, because he felt he had to.

 

[JonathanW]

I have always said it was a bad idea and it is. If we played in a Pac12, or ACC type conference, you can get away with it, but you cant do it in this conference and you definitely can't do it against a team like Auburn that comes at you from all 5 positions. Those guards will eat you alive if they know you have to back off to avoid picking up a foul.

Oweh picked up a 3rd in the first half on a really stupid play. He is not a guy you can do this with, he's not a guy that plays smart enough to avoid foul trouble.

I don't care what anybody says, the 2nd half is the more important half. Adjustments are made at halftime, players get tired, the last 4 minutes are crazy and you need your guys to be able to defend without worrying about fouling out. There's no 3rd half to make up for the mistakes you make in the 2nd half.

Oweh was a ghost in the second half today. There was no point where he could play aggressively. He picked up his 4th foul early and that was all she wrote.

I know some will disagree with me, but I don't care, it's common sense, if you pick up your 3rd in the 1st half, you're screwed, especially with the whistle in this conference.

I’ve always said it is a good idea, and I’m right. You want to maximize the minutes of your best players. By benching them early you risk not getting their minutes. When they play the minutes does not matter as much as maximizing them.

 

[The_Answer1313]

I think it's largely context dependent.

I don't feel like there's this hard and fast rule with this

 

[Digger-Cat]

I’ve always said it is a good idea, and I’m right. You want to maximize the minutes of your best players. By benching them early you risk not getting their minutes. When they play the minutes does not matter as much as maximizing them.

But if they're playing with a mindset to not foul, you aren't getting them at their best and against a team like Auburn, they are going to go right at you with top notch guards.

Plus, like I said, Oweh was a ghost in the second half. Once he picked up his 3rd foul, he had to play the rest of the game on his heels. It's a bad idea with a guy like Oweh.

You might be able to get away with it with Carr, or Robinson, but I disagree with playing Oweh, Butler, or Williams in the 1st half with 2 fouls, if they get their 3rd foul, you just screwed yourself.

Get your 3rd foul in the first half, you need to make it to at least the 10 minute mark of the 2nd half before getting another foul, which means you have to play matador defense the entire half.

 

[Digger-Cat]

I think it's largely context dependent.

I don't feel like there's this hard and fast rule with this

Knowing what you know now, would you play Oweh at Missouri in the first half after getting his 2nd foul next Saturday?

 

[jwphelps]

Are you saying I'm bitching? Hope not, because I said nothing about Pope, he rolled the dice, because he felt he had to.

I have seen coaches even Cal play some players with 2 fouls and then seen the same coaches sit other players some times it works other times it doesn't. I have seen players play the entire 2nd half with 3 fouls and not foul out. Know I do agree that with the officiating in the SEC you could get one of those stupid touch or phantom fouls.

 

[the nail at the foul line]

I think it's largely context dependent.

I don't feel like there's this hard and fast rule with this

Are you now saying there are two schools of thought?

 

[Digger-Cat]

I have seen coaches even Cal play some players with 2 fouls and then seen the same coaches sit other players some times it works other times it doesn't. I have seen players play the entire 2nd half with 3 fouls and not foul out. Know I do agree that with the officiating in the SEC you could get one of those stupid touch or phantom fouls.

I'm not critisizing CMP here, he did what he had to do, but in a physical game, against the best guards you will see all season, with SEC officials and that player being Otega Oweh, it was a bad decision and I said it as soon as I saw Oweh back in the game, but I totally understand why he did it.

If it happens again Tuesday night against LSU, sure, put him back in the game with 2 fouls, you can make it work in that situation, but next Saturday at Missouri, is a definite no.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Are you now saying there are two schools of thought?

Yep EXACTLY lol.

 

[The_Answer1313]

I think it's largely dependent on the player.

Do they typically foul a lot? How much of a risk do they have in picking up their 3rd?
What about the refs? Are they calling the game tight or are they letting them play?
What about the team we are facing? Do they shoot a ton of threes or do they drive to the hoop and create contact?

I feel like with this you either keep the foul prone guy in and they do pick up their 3rd OR if its someone that doesn't foul, they aren't nearly as aggressive and thus diminishes their importance.

In theory you do want to play your best players the most amount of minutes. And I can't blame Pope here. This game was getting out of hand. Our bench simply could not match up with them at all. But you do wonder what kind of effect it has on the player in terms of being at their best if they are constantly worried about picking up number 3 on defense.

 

[jpbky2]

I feel sitting players with two fouls is a lot like what to do with timeouts. You can't carry them over to the next game and analytics has backed the thinking of letting them play. Analytics isn't the end all and gut instincts and score plays into it as well. I would hate to sit a guy for 10 minutes and be down 20 and him end the game with two fouls. I watched a lot of basketball games yesterday in which coaches played guys with two fouls including Bruce Pearl with Broom.

 

[The_Answer1313]

FWIW Kenpom has a stat on the team page for 2 foul participation.

Looks like with Pope he is essentially average here. The average is 22.7% and we are at 23.0% (151st)

Related article that discusses:

https://kenpom.com/blog/introducing-2-foul-participation/

 

[Digger-Cat]

I think it's largely dependent on the player.

Do they typically foul a lot? How much of a risk do they have in picking up their 3rd?
What about the refs? Are they calling the game tight or are they letting them play?
What about the team we are facing? Do they shoot a ton of threes or do they drive to the hoop and create contact?

I feel like with this you either keep the foul prone guy in and they do pick up their 3rd OR if its someone that doesn't foul, they aren't nearly as aggressive and thus diminishes their importance.

In theory you do want to play your best players the most amount of minutes. And I can't blame Pope here. This game was getting out of hand. Our bench simply could not match up with them at all. But you do wonder what kind of effect it has on the player in terms of being at their best if they are constantly worried about picking up number 3 on defense.

I definitely don't disagree. Like I said, do it against LSU at home, but don't do it in road games, or against teams like Bama, Auburn, aTm, or Florida.

I don't trust SEC officials. Oweh's 3rd foul is one you don't call in a game like that, but they did.

They called a foul on Carr on that 3 point shot attempt, there was no foul. These refs are too incompetent to roll the dice and what happened yesterday, was Oweh was completely neutralized for the rest of the game.

Like I said, I understand why CMP did it, I just feel like it was a bad idea, in fact, I think it's too big of a risk to take in most games in this league, with these officials.

I wish they would move the limit to 6, a 5 foul limit makes no sense.

 

[Digger-Cat]

FWIW Kenpom has a stat on the team page for 2 foul participation.

Looks like with Pope he is essentially average here. The average is 22.7% and we are at 23.0% (151st)

Related article that discusses:

https://kenpom.com/blog/introducing-2-foul-participation/

I've only seen him do it a few times.

He did it with Williams at Oklahoma and if those officials didn't change the foul to Butler during the timeout, which was odd, Williams would have had 3 fouls and that would have been a very big deal.

 

[The_Answer1313]

I definitely don't disagree. Like I said, do it against LSU at home, but don't do it in road games, or against teams like Bama, Auburn, aTm, or Florida.

I don't trust SEC officials. Oweh's 3rd foul is one you don't call in a game like that, but they did.

They called a foul on Carr on that 3 point shot attempt, there was no foul. These refs are too incompetent to roll the dice and what happened yesterday, was Oweh was completely neutralized for the rest of the game.

Like I said, I understand why CMP did it, I just feel like it was a bad idea, in fact, I think it's too big of a risk to take in most games in this league, with these officials.

I wish they would move the limit to 6, a 5 foul limit makes no sense.

I feel like the score had to have played an effect in this too. Like if you can get by with guys sitting on the bench, you can keep there.

I think once Auburn started stretching it out, Pope didn't really have much a choice here. I think it kind of pressed his hand a bit.

 

[Digger-Cat]

I feel like the score had to have played an effect in this too. Like if you can get by with guys sitting on the bench, you can keep there.

I think once Auburn started stretching it out, Pope didn't really have much a choice here. I think it kind of pressed his hand a bit.

Yeah, but if Oweh has to play defense on his heels, he'll be a net negative player against Auburn. It's just not worth the risk against guards like that.
They'll just take the ball right at him and all Oweh could do, is let them score and even then, the officials will call a foul on any contact.